ThLT

North Korea isn't hacking into Apple and stealing millions is it? Nor is that even possible. ????

So? We're talking about transmission and re-infection. 90-95% of cases are Omicron. And it will be close to 100% within the next few months. That "Delta is way more dangerous than Omicron" is completely beside the point. Where does it say that? It doesn't. You personally made that up. The chart is updated until January 10, 2022. Boosted people are very likely part of it.

North Korea stealing cryptocurrency to develop missile programme, UN says But you probably don't care about that, right? As long as you're raking in profits?

It doesn't say January 10, 2021. It says January 10, 2022.

I completely agree with forcing people to wear masks. To make it temporary law, even. However, since vaccines only partially protect against transmission/infection, the forcing of people to get vaccinated is barely scientifically justified. And even if they were 100% effective at preventing transmission, that's not even taking into consideration the authoritarian, legal and ethical implications of doing so. Nor the deterioration of public trust in public health departments and the government. If forcing people to get vaccinated results in even more anti-vaccine sentiments in the population, it might be entirely counter-productive. Having even detrimental effects after the COVID pandemic, and for other diseases.

No, I stated that the effectiveness of vaccines wane. I thought that was common scientific knowledge—even for vaccines as a whole. Here, from the UK Health Security Agency: SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern and variants under investigation in EnglandTechnical briefing 33 - UK Health Security Agency (Apparently, Moderna wanes less, but it's not surprising, since the normal dose is 100 mcg and 50 mcg for the booster—in comparison to only 30 mcg for the Pfizer, both the normal dose and booster. It does wane though.) Notice the percentages as well? Not anywhere close to your 81%. ????

Yes, but your argument is still invalid. 89% of the population of Portugal is fully vaccinated. And 4% have had one dose, which leaves 7% being unvaccinated. There is also a portion of the population that is young children, with 5-11 year olds starting to get vaccinated just two weeks ago. So out of that remaining 7% of the population that is unvaccinated, how many are unvaxxed adults, which is the topic of this thread? 1-4%, maybe? 1-4% accounting for 1-2% daily infection of the population? Impossible. A significant number of vaccinated people are getting infected with Omicron. (You might say, "yes, many of those aren't boosted." This being indicative that being fully vaccinated, and the vaccine, aren't phenomenal at protecting against infection. If your perpetual argument is that you need a booster, and then a second booster, and a third, and a fourth... every 9 months, then those boosters are needed for a reason. Being that the vaccine isn't that good to begin with. Better than nothing, but still not very good.)

"Very rare" is a vague and subjective. As soon as it is quantified, as I did in the post above—that you basically ignored and didn't really address—it is proven to not be accurate. Do you mean this post? With the more accurate rate of infection based on individual vaccines: AstraZeneca: 36% Sinovac: 24% Moderna: 48% Pfizer: 44% Not anywhere close to your supposed 81%, does it?

Are you expecting every single person on this planet to do the same as you? And I actually agree with you about the importance of vaccination, by the way. I won't the list of vaccines I've gotten, though. Regarding COVID vaccines, which is the topic being discussed, after a certain point, getting COVID boosters could have little benefit—and even might be detrimental. You do know that, right? You might want to read this (from the The New York Times): Will 'Forever Boosting' Beat the Coronavirus - The New York Times So your solution is not a very good one.

So? I've already acknowledged that vaccines protect against severe disease multiple times. You keep bringing that up almost every single time you reply. Thanks for posting the obvious, that I agree with, yet again. And, I was talking about natural immunity from Omicron infection. OMG, you can't get that into your head, can you? Every single case where someone vaccinated gets COVID, that is a breakthrough infection. BY DEFINITION. If you're unvaccinated—and the vaccine vials are in a fridge at a hospital—the vaccine can't protect you against re-infection, can it? If vaccines like Sinovac are only 24% protective against infection, or for Pfizer, 44% protective against infection, it means breakthrough infections can happen in 76% of exposures with COVID for Sinovac, and 36% cases for Pfizer. Which is definitely not "rare."

Yeah. What I was saying. If a "variant-proof vaccine" can be developed, all the better. The virus will probably still exist for the next decade, though, even if the majority of the World population gets vaccinated.

There is no chance of eliminating this virus. Not in this decade, at least. Even if everyone gets vaccinated. There will be new variants. Let's hope they get less and less dangerous in severity, and don't make current vaccines obsolete.

It does give partial immunity, and protection. ???? Better than having zero immunity and protection.

Yes, that would be awesome. But that would require vaccinating another 7 billion people with that new vaccine—and would probably require two doses. That would take another year or so of semi-lockdowns and similar authoritarian propositions like the OP of this thread. Except, including everyone who hasn't gotten this new vaccine. However, with Omicron being as much as 400% more contagious than Delta, by then most people would have gotten Omicron, likely survived, and already have natural immunity. So we're kind of stuck with these not-pristinely-effective vaccines at the moment.

The two most prominent posters in the thread consider vaccines (direct quotes from them):

Sure, but I'm not talking about "any farang in Thailand who wants to get boosted in 2022." I'm talking about Thailand as a population, and the World. The levels of protection against illness and transmission in Thailand are much lower than the averages I mentioned above.

Sure. But how long are we going to boost the whole 8 billion population of the World? Every 9 months? Prominent scientists/epidemiologists are saying that there is a limit to how much you can boost people. Obviously, the solution is a better and more effective vaccine (both for reducing illness and transmission). But apparently, people think the vaccines right now are already "EXTREMELY effective." ????

If we are talking about the US, yes, that's correct. But right now, the large majority of vaccines administered in Thailand were AstraZeneca and Sinovac. So the averages I listed above are much lower for Thailand.

Yes, waning protection. Something that is not being taken into consideration. If vaccines protect you for only 6-9 months, and that protection significantly goes down, are they effective? Sure, during those months, however, the levels after their protection wanes must also be considered. People saying vaccines are "EXTREMELY effective" aren't doing that, though.

Thank you. Along with the 33%-48% rate of preventing infection, it's important to also notice the "Severe Disease" column for Omicron, ranging from 37% to at most 73%: So yes, vaccines do prevent infection to a certain degree. However, not "EXTREMELY good at preventing infection," like was said—and there is definitely not only a "small number of breakthrough infections" like was also said (52% to 76% is definitely not "a small number"). And that's without taking into consideration the 37% to at most 73% reduction of severe illness. So yes, the vaccines are extremely useful and important for the pandemic, but not "EXTREMELY" efficient. If you do the average of AstraZeneca, Pfizer, Moderna and Sinovac, for Omicron, their effectiveness on average are: 63% at preventing serious disease 38% at preventing infection *And since Thailand was mostly vaccinated with Sinovac and AstraZeneca (which have lower protection levels), the above averages are even lower for Thailand. So no, someone vaccinated is not "EXTREMELY" protected compared to someone who is unvaccinated. And I say this as someone who is pro-vaccine. Vaccinated should not have societal privileges, and unvaccinated should not be barred from things like public transportation. This would be authoritarian and almost unscientific to do so.

I'm pro-vaccine, but the level of mental gymnastics some authoritarian pro-vaccine people make is astounding.

I know... she didn't say that vaccinations don't reduce infections. What the director of the CDC director did say is: And breakthrough infection or not, your point is completely moot. The only possibility of transmitting the virus while vaccinated... is, by definition, you guessed it, if you are vaccinated. If you aren't vaccinated, the vaccine obviously can't protect you from transmitting the virus, can it? ???? You'll probably repeat the same completely illogical argument again, though: ???? "What the CDC director was talking about is breakthrough infections of vaccinated people." Yeah, exactly. I'll take my guidance from the CDC rather than from some random guy named "heybruce" on an Internet forum. Thanks.

"5% is still quite prevalent"? ???? As opposed to what... 95%? ???? When you went to school, were you happy if you got 5% on an exam? ???? Do you even know the definition of the word "prevalent"? As in, prevails, majority, main, dominant, highest amount? 5% is definitely not prevalent. ????

You forgot to take into consideration that 90-100% of new cases are now the Omicron variant. Are you actually going to make a point about a variant that almost doesn't exist anymore? Do you want to also make claims about the Alpha variant as well, while you're at it? When I was saying the vaccines are ineffective at preventing transmission, that means the current and most prevelant variant—Omicron. No, you're completely making stuff up out of thin air. Omicron makes up 95% of sequenced Covid cases in U.S. as infections hit pandemic record As for Portugal, in December 2021, Portugal had a confirmed 75% of cases being Omicron. Here is the graph—with a 90% Omicron projection by December 30th: And? Vaccines—and for example a country that is 89% fully vaccinated but still has enourmous amounts of infections—are still not very effective at preventing the transmission. Which is my point.

Yeah, "EXTREMELY good at preventing breakthrough infection." ???? Might want to look at the graphs above. Portugal is 89% fully vaccinated, yet has one of the world's highest daily number of new cases. Ha. I keep providing proof, with Lancet studies, direct quotes from the CDC, stats from countries. The only thing you do is say your own personal opinions, with grammatical errors, and nothing else to support your claims. Just opinions and empty words.