Charma

That is a great achievement!

moving from 6th to 14th ??

Agreed - this is not good news. Even Phuket managed to hold its position at least. This should be a wake up call for the island otherwise it will continue its demise. Somehow though, I doubt if those that matter will do anything at all.

Andaman sea is always rough and tumble this time of the year...

RIP

Time to debate ferry safety there again?

- boat was built for 60 and carried 60, so was not overloaded (following the Thai law)

- one of the dead persons was cut by the propeller

- the ship was NOT a ferry (as wasn't the boat last month) but a rented tour-ship

Not really a good idea to go out at this weather, as it IS raining right outside my window. But from the safety aspect #on board# -- as from the articles -- there does not seem to be much violation.

It appears that this boat SANK. This clearly indicates soemthing has gone very badly wrong with either the vessel or the way it was skippered. To just call it an accident and put it down to bad luck is totally the wrong approach. More of these incidents will continue to occur unless lessons are learnt and acted upon.

I agree with Simon43. You need to catch his attention in the first paragraph. Make this opening your personal plea for his help and merely outline what the situation is and what it means to you and your family. MP's are very busy people and he will not have time to go through the details at first read. Win him over first, then he (or his secretary) may look into it further.

I would also suggest you get help from Scouser and find the quickest way to progress this matter, as the complaint route might not be the best.

Didn't we have a recent posting about a "dangerous" car park attendant who caused an accident with his whistle? I bet he got a transfer to the airport!

Of all the political stories posted on TV over recent months, this is perhaps the most worrying of all. What are they afraid of? They have actually said that they would not agree to this as the EU observers would be "independent". What do they expect them to be!

What kind of legitimacy will the new government have? First, ban the main opposition party, then ban all their top politicians and then when it looks like people may still want to vote for their associates, ban independent monitoring. Thailand seems not too many steps from Zimbabwe at the moment!

I was at palace when Cantona did his flying kick into the crowd - one of the funniest things I've seen. The bloke he was after deserved it!

I would suggest you give them the exact same advice, which you readily give to Farangs, who find themselves in a similar situation.

Exactly what advice would that be? Are you referring to anything I have said in particular?

There is nothing unlawful about giving advice. The people who have acted illegally are the employers of this couple. I cannot really do much about them at the moment without dragging the couple into it. But as I stated before, when they are ready to return to Thailand, I will make sure the employers get reported.

I trust that such reporting will include their new employers as well - illegal employment, not meeting the minimum wage etc. After all, you can't be selective about these things, can you?

Why not?

how 'bout Alexander Graham Bell

Bell emigrated to Canada with his parents when he was 23. It is unlikely he ever considered himself anything other than 100% Scottish or Scots-Canadian, even after obtaining US citizenship (out of necessity), as he eventually made Nova Scotia in Canada his home.

He certainly didn't consider himself American, so sorry to ruin your US imperialist history revisionism.

Nah, no problem. The 'how 'bout?' part was merely a question, kinda a tongue-in-cheek Americanism, a self-denigration, so you needn't worry thyself about my imperialist revisionisms. And whilst we're practicing pedantry, Nova Scotia is in "America."

Have they moved it ?

It's the bit in quotes that gives it away! i.e. so is Buenos Aires

I am not surprised you were angry. Sh#t, I was <deleted> livid yesterday

Of course I don't think you are a kiddy fiddler (easier to spell )..........merely an unsubtle (I am not very good at subtle ) way of pointing out (including to others) of the potential seriousness of what you were engaged in / getting mixed up with and that even innocent explanations with good (albeit IMO misguided) intentions don't always sound quite so good when standing up in court on a wet tuesday morning looking at a man in a wig..........the internet ain't the Anon world it may once have been.

Nice clarification BTW

I would be more worried had I actually broken the law. There is nothing unlawful about giving advice. The people who have acted illegally are the employers of this couple. I cannot really do much about them at the moment without dragging the couple into it. But as I stated before, when they are ready to return to Thailand, I will make sure the employers get reported. To those that seem angry about the poor British taxpayer and the unfortunate unemployed, here is something to think about:

1. They have been working here for over a year without resort to any public funds (not even healthcare!)
   
2. Virtually all the money they have earned has been spent in the UK
   
3. Everytime they have bought something, they paid VAT
   
4. In the area they were, there are never enough available workers in the service industries
   
5. They were doing a hard and difficult job that not many Brits would be willing to do
   

So who has benefited from this situation? It is certainly not them. If at the end of two years toil they return home courtesy of HM government, I reckon they will have earned it.

What is the point of all this? There can be no REAL debate here. This forum is CENSORED!!!!

Just to clarify - the advice I gave to this couple, having established that they would never be able to renew/extend their visa, was to go home. I had an option from another TV member to put them in touch with an employer in Norfolk, but on realising that this would have to be without a WP or Visa, decided that I did not want to arrange this or put the TV members friend in a position of illegal employment.

The jobs they took up north were found for them by someone else and I had no dealings with that. I still wish them well and hope that they can pay off the loan a get back home.

My issue with JerseyUK's post was more to do with his suggestions that I was either doing it for money or I am some sort of paedophile. I think this says more about his state of mind than mine!

I can now provide an update on this story:

The couple have been given jobs at a pub/hotel up north. The pay is still not minimum wage, but it is much more than they were getting before and includes free accomodation. The owners are prepared to take the risks regarding the expired visas. Their plan is to earn enough to pay off the loan and then go back to Thailand to start again. They do not want to take any action against the other restaurants at this stage as they do not want to be found by authorities. I have asked them to let me help them when they leave, that maybe we can combine them turning themselves in, with action against these companies that have sought to exploit them. When they return, they are going to try to publicise what has happened so that fewer Thais fall into the trap of these "agencies" who promise the world and then leave you and stranded.

To everyone that has offered help and advice (roygsd & bendix in particular) - thanks. At least I was able to clarify their legal situation for them.

I myself agree with some posters that feel immigration controls are necessary. However, that does not mean you have to feel angry with the unfortunate people of the world who seek out a better life for themselves and their families. They are only doing what most oif us would do in a similar situation.

How nice of you to provide assistance - whilst I too have sympathy for folk on a personal level - even unpaid (presumably?), it is still at least assisting with (if not actually engaging in) People Trafficking........of course we only have your word that it is an Adult couple you have been seeking assistance to hide and for the reasons you state........

Anyway, even taking things at face value (LOL), you're a braver man than me Gunga Din - especially given that the Internet is not quite as Anon as it used to be / folk think it is..........

What on earth was all that about. Have you even bothered to read the threads? It is not very often I get annoyed by posts on TV, but yours has to be about the most pathetic I have read to date. It is clear from your post what particular things are on your mind when you post!

I can now provide an update on this story:

The couple have been given jobs at a pub/hotel up north. The pay is still not minimum wage, but it is much more than they were getting before and includes free accomodation. The owners are prepared to take the risks regarding the expired visas. Their plan is to earn enough to pay off the loan and then go back to Thailand to start again. They do not want to take any action against the other restaurants at this stage as they do not want to be found by authorities. I have asked them to let me help them when they leave, that maybe we can combine them turning themselves in, with action against these companies that have sought to exploit them. When they return, they are going to try to publicise what has happened so that fewer Thais fall into the trap of these "agencies" who promise the world and then leave you and stranded.

To everyone that has offered help and advice (roygsd & bendix in particular) - thanks. At least I was able to clarify their legal situation for them.

I myself agree with some posters that feel immigration controls are necessary. However, that does not mean you have to feel angry with the unfortunate people of the world who seek out a better life for themselves and their families. They are only doing what most oif us would do in a similar situation.

Just in case anyone missed it - the address is Surrey, not West Sussex!

Me, Mrs C and little C will be there. Had a great time two years ago. It is a little pricey, but as has been pointed out this is a non profit charity event with ALL proceeds going to the Mudita Trust. Each adult ticket also enteres you into a prize draw for two return Thai airways tickets!

"There is no use trying to use reason against this

tendency in Thai people; it won't work. Instead, you have to use threats and trick warnings instead of stating things directly."

A very interesting post.

Though I find the idea repugnant :-/

I also found this very interesting. There are examples of trick warnings in western culture, although to a much lesser extent. Things like - Don't pull that face - if the wind changes you will be stuck with it for example. Of course we were all told that carrots would help us see in the dark and something else would make us blind! The higher prevelance of these in Thai culture would I guess be down to a rural setting where families work and live together so much more and so these "learning events" would be much more numerous and relevant.

Our daughter is mixed race and I hope that we will be able to combine the best of both cultures in bringing her up. Of course we may end up with something that is neither, but we are going to try.

Given that info, one has to question whether their original work permits and visas were obtained legally. If the OP meant Three hundred thousand baht, this is commensurate with the sort of figures charged by facilitators for an illegal package, and far in excess of what one might expect to be paid to an organiser of a legitimate scheme. I'm afraid it's an all too common scenario, someone bets the family jewels on getting to the West in the hope of earning enough to send money home. There seems to be a part of humanity that is unable to resist the blandishments of timeshare salesmen, internet scammers and the like, and one can only feel sorry for the victims in this story, who may well have been misled into believing they were assured of a future in this country.

Perhaps the OP might ask them whether they actually went to the British Embassy for a visa. If they didn't they're unlikely to have entered this country legally, and their chances of a successful application to remain here are zilch. But, as Scouse says, even if they did enter on a Sector Based Work Permit, those were issued for a one-year period on the basis that the holder would return home when they expired, and they're unlikely to be allowed to stay now.

If they're not happy here they should go home.

I will check when I see them, but it looks like it was possibly a sector based work permit. The agency and their employer kept telling them that this would be extended. I think this was done to keep them on low wages and dangle the carrot of earning more money after their first year. It is not surprising this couple did not know the details of the UK immigration rules that relate to them - that is why these agencies get away with it.

It is not really a case them whether they are happy here. It is really a matter of returning to tell the family that they have lost the land! My feeling is that they will go back as soon as they have paid off the loan, even if this means being exploited further.

As harsh as it may seem, I don't think they have any other option than to hand themselves in and return home.

It would appear that they entered the UK under the provisions of the Sector-Based work permit scheme which allowed employment in certain areas for a year at a time, but which has now largely been done away with. In order to qualify for another work permit, they will have to demonstrate, as a minimum, that they either hold degrees or have three years' experience in the field which could be considered to constitute a GNVQ level 3 qualification. Additionally, any job which they should be offered will have to be advertised within the EU before an application can be made and the employer will have to explain why any other applicants are not suitable. In other words, there is no way they will get a work permit and, even if they did, they would have to leave the UK in order to apply for another visa to get back in. If they plan it correctly, they may be able to take their previous employer down with them, and they will get a free trip back to Thailand, although can potentially expect a few days' detention prior to being removed.

There is a concession that allows people who have been in the UK for 14 years to gain permanent residence, but that is an awfully long time for this couple to be looking over their shoulders and, undoubtedly, they would be consigned to further exploitation during this time.

Scouse.

Scouse

Thanks for the information. I feared this was the case. I will tell the couple and leave it up to them to decide whether to call it a day or remain as fugitives. If they decide to leave, I will certainly encourage and assist them to report the agencies and employers involved in this.

Bendix and I have exchanged PM's and in the light of your post, it may not be possible for his friend to take on the couple, which is a shame as they are perfect for the job.

Having trawled through the Citizens Advice Bureau website I have read some recent reports they have made to government that this problem is getting worse. It is very difficult to prosecute the businesses involved because obviously the individuals do not want to initially report the offences and even when leaving, are reluctant to give evidence because of threats from these "agencies" in their own countries.

Grief, they're just another pair of illegals pushing their luck. How are they so different to the 50,000 others knocked back annually from the UK. Or are you suggesting that anyone and everyone should stay at will, particularly when they are cute,fluffy little Thai couples?

You are all heart

A lot of replies here - thanks. Now to answer a few:

they should get back to the agency and ask to extend their work permit, give better jobs or money back.

in my private opinion working in a thai restaurant wasn't a bad deal (£2.5 x 66h=£165 minus £50 accommodation minus £20 food). Still they would be able to save around £100/week.

Apart from the fact that the minimum wage is £5.35 an hour.

Yes, and deductions are illegal. Min wage would still need to be 5.35 x 66. Anything under that means they can report their employer who will then be investigated, and if found to be in breach will have to pay the unpaid amount to the employee.

I actually investigated the reporting route - there is a helpline and even an oline form for this. Ultimately a claim for minimum wage ends up at an employemnt tribunal and then a civil court if they still don't pay up. When they told me their WP had expired, it became clear that this option was not so good for them.

Yes the minimum wage is £5.35 and employers can only reduce this by £29 per week to allow for accomodation.

I can well understand the tea and sympathy currently on offer but must confess to some surprise that you the hard nosed Bendix has also succumbed to the siren call of sentiment.

Mellowing in anticipation of your retirement perhaps ?

I can understand your point entirely. I do not really want to facilitate illegal employment. I do not also feel the need to call the authorities and turn them in. I just see two people who made a big mistake and are trying to work their way out of it. I posted here because of this dilemma and if there is some good that will come of it I will be very happy.

Let's remember. Britain is no less guilty....... of EXPLOITATION

The businesses that are exploiting them are all UK businesses, owned by people of Thai origin. I am sure there are plenty of indiginous britons that would exploit them as well..or were you thinking more from an historical/national perspective?

Good luck for them. Do thet know about the Thai Temple in London? They can talk to the monks and important embassy people there if they need help. PM if you want the number. You should also get this in to the British and Thai press imo

I will mention the temple when I speak with them. I am not sure if they have sought advice there yet. I have also mentioned the citizens advice bureau - husband is a little nervous of officialdom, even though I assured him that they were a non government charity. Likewise the press is not a good idea at present. If and when they go back, I may make it a personal mission to shop the restaurant involved in all of this.

I think I have responded to most points. Forgive me if I have missed anything, but the TV connection seems very slow tonight. Thanks everyone for the suggestions. If anyone knows about the possibility they may have of changing an expired WP into a live one, perhaps with an employer as sponsor, I would be most interested.

Bendix - I have PM'd you

Do they speak English?

I know a very lovely English country pub in Norfolk which is looking to hire a Thai couple who can cook both Thai and English food 5-6 nights a week. I can personally vouch for the landlord. My understanding is that the guy will pay the couple up to a thousand pounds a month each and give free board and lodging.

Perhaps the OP could PM me and I'll pass on the details.

They both speak a little English. How will they view the work permit/visa situation? I will PM you.

they should get back to the agency and ask to extend their work permit, give better jobs or money back.

in my private opinion working in a thai restaurant wasn't a bad deal (£2.5 x 66h=£165 minus £50 accommodation minus £20 food). Still they would be able to save around £100/week.

maybe you should convince pub owners to start paying for the work

I think that they would have stayed, but they were not given the option. This Thai restaurant makes A LOT of money so I think they were totally exploiting this couple. They even made them pay all utility bills and a portion of the council tax! They have amanged to pay off some of the loan, but it is very expensive living over here. I am sure they may find some more work, but chances are it will be a company that wants to exploit them further.

The agency that brought them here does not want to know.

I am sure that they will get their air fares paid if they are deported - but they will lose their family land.

I do not think I am being scammed as they have not asked us for anything at all.

I am posting to get some views/ advice from members about the following:

Over the past three or four months we have got to know a young Thai couple who live near us in the UK and work in a local Thai restaurant. They have recently disclosed to us a serious personal predicament as they feel they can now trust us and they do not know what to do.

It transpires that they came to the UK about 18 months ago having paid 300,00 baht to some sort of employment agency in Thailand, who promised them work permits and good paid jobs in the UK. They borrowed the money against family land in the hope that they could come to the UK and send money back.

They came over here and initially worked in the hotel industry on very low wages but with live-in accommodation. After deductions, they had barely enough to live on let alone start to pay off the loan back in Thailand. They continued working as they were told that after one year, they would be free to get better paid jobs elsewhere.

The year passed, their work permits lapsed and the hotel dismissed them! They then got a job with this Thai restaurant, again with tied accommodation. I have found out that they were being paid £2.50 per hour for each working 66 hours a week! They were even having accommodation bills deducted from this, so again they could barely afford to feed themselves. When they asked about earning more so that they could start paying the loan, they again were told to pack their bags. They are now staying with a friend and helping out in their pub for free (well for a room I guess).

I know some may see them as illegal immigrants who should be deported, but I just see a nice hard working young couple who have been cheated, lied to and are now being exploited by (Thai) businesses over here who know they cannot complain.

If they go back to Thailand, they cannot pay back the loan and their families will be homeless. If they stay here, they will effectively remain as slaves, scraping to pay off a loan they cannot really afford.

Any ideas will be gratefully received.

Do you mean Coco? Coconut Land & House is a separate company.

The thing about house prices - and this applies the world over - is that NO ONE can predict where they are headed. Research has shown that the banks, agents, analysts have a miserable record when it comes to predicting them (not much better than brokers are at predicting the markets!). Anything that relies heavily on human emotion in the decision process is always going to be impossible to predict.

I think all the above issues play a part in influencing the market, but the overall picture is far too complicated to indicate which way things will go. Like any investment, if you buy for the long term, you won't mind the short term corrections. If you hop about trying to catch each wave, you can lose out big time!

In a struggling market, properties in good locations with good views will fare the best and often hold their value.

In a rising market, property "fever" sets in and people buy any old rubbish - poor quality in bad locations with no views, because they will still make some money. When the market struggles, there is oversupply and no-one is interested in the poor quality stuff which then have to be heavily discounted to shift them.

I think this is particularly true of Thailand (even more to Samui) because of the total lack of planning control which has led to a plethora of poor quality, badly placed developments. Supply of the really good stuff is limited by geography and so prices are supported.

Obviously in a market crash - all prices may come down, but we are not there (yet).

Just my view