MisguidedPangolin

I had a lot of trouble in Vientiane about 6 months ago. I used to go there often until about 3 years ago and never had issues, but the last time I was there will be the last time I go back unless I hear things have improved. I'm only hearing bad things this year.

Like a lot of others I'm thinking about joining those who have already given up on Thailand entirely. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a big change in the near future whether it's another coup or much less likely the government waking up and no longer shooting its own country in the foot by alienating so many of the foreigners spending money here. At some point all these struggling businesses and angry Thais whose businesses have already closed up will presumably cause something to happen, it's just a matter of what and when. Thais aren't exactly good at keeping their eyes open to reality, but they excel in stubborn denial, so they will probably take some time to accept that replacing the old demographic of tourists with Chinese and Indians isn't going to work well for them, for multiple reasons. Most sane people would have predicted it in advance, anyone with much sense can clearly see it now, but the Thai government will possibly maintain denial and belief in its own BS for some time yet. In the mean time, best of luck to you!

20 minutes ago, Tony125 said:

Here is some clarification for you:

1. If you do a border run to a nearby country by land you are allowed 2 Visa Exempt (30 day entrance) per calendar year which can be extendedfor an additional 30 days at immigration for 1900baht.

2 If you fly into a nearby country then cross into Thailand by a land border with a Tourist visa ( 60 days ) you probably will not be stopped entering Thailand. You can extend that at immigration for 30 days for 1900 baht.

3. An Elite Visa (5  years ) cost $15,000 USD (1 time payment in full no monthly pay option)but you can come and go as you please.

Thanks for this. 1 and 2 I'm quite aware of and I've done plenty of this in various combinations (too much, according to some of the relevant Thai border folks). The issue I'm having and the vagueness comes from the fact that while these are the rules, and apparently there are no official restrictions, some but not all Thai government employees seem to think there are restrictions on how often you can do this, even though the rules actually say unlimited entries by land. There is apparently an unofficial rule of a maximum 180 days on tourist visas per year which only some staff enforce and apparently only some are even aware of. It seems it comes down to discretion of whoever you happen to be dealing with when entering, and they apparently stop people coming in even when they don't violate any of the actual rules.

I was hoping to get more clarification on the above but over the last 48 hours I think the clarification boils down to the picture itself being muddy, no matter how clearly you can see it.

I was hoping to get some ideas on the realities of minimum requirements for work and study visas, but the good folks here are unwilling or unable to address that question.

As for option 3, US$15k up front no refunds is too big a commitment for me to make at this point. If I'm still here in a year or two and I'm wanting to stay long term and I'm sure about it, then yes, I'll probably be considering that one. It's a blatant bribe, but I guess if you want to stick around here you have to accept the rules of the games the powers that be are playing. At this point I'm questioning if Thailand is even a place I want to deal with much longer, in no small part due to the games the powers that be are playing.

14 minutes ago, Enzo555 said:

Hi, 

 

 I can share with you my experience if it can help you. In 2018, I've stayed about 10 months in Thailand with tourist visas and extensions; I had only 10 months stay on my passport; it was my first long stay in Thailand, before that I just used to come 2/3 weeks for holidays. After 10 months I went back to my country in Europe and stayed about 3 months. I came back in Thailand in 2019 via BKK airport entering with visa exempt 30 days; I was taken to interview by immigration officer who clearly told me that I can't come on visa exempt anymore due to my long stay in 2018. I've never worked in Thailand and had largely enough money to show them. I'm from a western European country. They listed me all my visas runs on the computer and even showed me all the pictures of me taken in the borders (Laos, Cambodia, Malaysia); they have everything on their computers.

 

 Then they even called my thai girlfriend in front of me to explain her the situation. After, they talked with her for about 15 min; they decided to let me in for this reason and told to my gf that I was let in only because they believed I stayed there long time due to her and they tried to understand the situation. The officer at the end of the interview explained me clearly that I could not come back with visa exempt or tourist visa again and that if I want to stay in Thailand I'd rather marry or try to find another solution. They was not agressive but explain me in a polite way that I can't have a long stay in Thailand on tourist visas or exempts. They told me we let you like this for about a year and that was enough time for me to decide what I wanna do and get the right visa.

 

Thanks for this. It sounds fairly similar to what happened to me. They printed out all my entries and exits for Thailand since my first arrival about five years ago and showed them to me. They do indeed have everything on file. They didn't tell me that I couldn't come in again on tourist visas, just gave me a vague 'not too much' instruction. When I asked how soon after this trip I could come back, they told me to go to the immigration department for a clear answer (which obviously makes no sense, but they obviously just wanted to pass the buck, even if it was to a department they knew wouldn't give a proper answer).

What did you end up doing for 2019? This is directly relevant to me and very helpful. It's interesting that I didn't get pulled up for it until more than a year after you did, despite me doing what you were doing for much longer.

9 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Your previous post re your visit to imm office advised you that you could stay in Los 365 days ...what a crock. Think post #30 or 32.

Why bother playing games. 

BTW do you know metv is only available in home country. Good luck with reentry.

 

Is it just text delivering your tone badly or do you really have a lovely ray of sunshine for a personality?

Anyway, I'm not sure what Los means. I'm not familiar with the cliquey jargon here, I'm obviously not highly clued up on all this which is why I'm here asking for help. If you'd like to help I'd be greatly appreciative, but it doesn't make sense to help in a way which isn't helpful. Terminology an idiot like me can understand would be really helpful.

I didn't know multiple entry visas were only available in one's home country. You may have noticed that I posted about my plan to head back to my home country this month which is where I'll be applying for the visa from. That works out nicely.

Why bother playing games? Well, yes, I'm asking myself that question lately. The thing is, the government isn't making clear rules or enforcing them consistently. This pushes one into playing games. I'd much prefer a clear set of rules which were readily available and stuck to. It's ridiculous that following the advice of multiple staff at the immigration department which all assured me is correct equates to 'playing games'. I do understand that's what it is. A lot of things about life in Thailand seem to revolve around 'playing games'. Unfortunately this seems to be the norm in a lot of South East Asia. Often 'playing games' is the only way things can be done at all out here.

43 minutes ago, tabarin said:

1x tourist visa + extension + border run + extension = 5 months. Repeat that and you should be fine + make the 10 months.
Will limit your possibilities if it comes to going in and out the country whenever you like though. 

So 500,000 baht for elite visa, marriage or less frequent and long stays.

P.S. Perhaps the double entry tourist visa will really come back, that would make it a bit easier again too.

This is pretty much what I'm thinking at this point, I'll give the multiple entry visa a go. If I leave early it'll work out to be more expensive but if they're happy to give it to me that's okay, and if they're still narky I'll cross that bridge when I come to it and probably just give up on hanging out in Thailand so much.

39 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Do añy of these helpful gentleman work at passport control?

Answer NO.

 

 

Is it fun pointing things out to people who have already said them?

In case anyone is wondering, the trip to the immigration department went as follows.

I can stay until December 24, they cancelled the cancelled stamp put in my passport after it was initially stamped. If I wanted to pay the 1,900 baht they would have happily extended until late January. I'd already told friends I'd be heading to Australia for xmas and given my recent experience coming in I figured I wouldn't push it, so didn't extend.

All the staff I spoke to (3 of them) at immigration were surprisingly polite, friendly and eager to help as best they could. Very different from the last time I went in a few months ago, when two different staff members yelled at me (literally raising their voice angrily) because I was wearing shorts and others gave me nasty glares. The previous time I went in was over a year ago, plenty of people were wearing shorts, some in singlets, many in flip flops, no one seemed to care then. Actually, no one cared about the people in flip flops, singlets etc today either. From what I gather/guess, someone worked out that getting angry at people wearing shorts who are *on holiday* in a *tropical country* touted as a *fun and relaxing destination* wanting to extend their visa so they could *stay longer and spend more money in the country* was a stupid idea likely to be correlated with the *drop in tourism relative to expected figures actually being experienced at the time* and they sent a memo around.

None of them (and they went around asking the other staff) knew anything about a 180 day rule, official or otherwise and thought it was strange thing for me to be concerned about. They'd literally never heard a thing about it and seemed completely genuine. They assured me that as long as I left Thailand for more than 1 day at a time I could come back as many times as I wanted, with or without a visa in advance. They were happy to assure me there is no reason I couldn't spend about 360 days per year in Thailand on tourist visas/extensions (30/60/90 days at a time with one day in between each) as long as I'm not working or studying (in which case I can get a study or work visa). Needless to say, I am completely unconvinced that border staff would be as eager to be so nice. They did say that border staff may question me again, but if I wasn't working or studying and politely answered any questions, I would surely be let in. I'm completely unconvinced, but reporting what I was told.

Any helpful or potentially helpful comments (or polite criticism) would be greatly appreciated, but if anyone want to squabble further or accuse me of being a troll please do so in another thread.

2 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

Some questions re 180 day unofficial guideline

• Some posters seem to suggest that this 180 day unofficial guideline is only used at the main entry airports (BKK / DMK). Is that correct?  I assumed it was also applied at land-borders and other Airports, but that these were more relaxed and that you might not encounter scrutiny there.
• I always understood that the 180 days were not per calendar year, but when they are looking for a reason to deny you that IO checks your history going back 365 days.  But do they also take into consideration the time you will be spending on entry in Thailand?  I guess not, but would be good to know.
• When you are on an METV in Thailand the Visa is valid for 6 months and you can squeeze 9 months out of it when timed right.  But you need to exit Thailand after 2 months (or 3 months when you extended in country).  Can you get into trouble when on your subsequent entries you have passed the 180 days unofficial guideline.  I guess not, but once again knowing is better than guessing.

When I was getting grilled at the airport they printed out my entire history of coming to Thailand (I first came about five years ago) and specifically referenced things from long ago, including a time I did a same day visa run (about 4 years ago I flew to Malaysia and came back the same day, I'd forgotten about it, the guy was talking about it as though it was recent and it seemed a big deal to him. It's the only time I've done a same say visa run and one of only two times I've ever been away for under 2 weeks, he made a big deal about both). I've flown with and without prearranged visas into BKK and DMK many times over the last few years with well over 180 days in Thailand over the previous 365 days. This is the first time they've said anything about it.

7 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

You won't have issues at border to enter visa exempt. Each entry can be extended by 30 days and imm office. Your concerns re 180 day unwritten rule is applied at some airports.

If need fly in eg from Vietnam then fly to CNX and avoid DM.

Your at the edge. Use border crossings. Fly to udon Thani chill at day/night bar area for a night. Ain't difficult.

PS CW zoo refers to imm office bkk. You won't get advice there how to avoid generous stay rules there.

Interesting you say that, the only other time I've had issues entering Thailand was coming back over the friendship bridge from Vientiane. That was about 3 years ago. A lot has changed since then. I had to ...'discuss' the situation with them and eventually they seemed to just let me in because sending me back to Laos seemed too difficult for them (I said I didn't think Laos would let me straight back in, which seemed to sway them). They told me to get a visa next time, and since then every time I went from Laos to Thailand I've gone to get a visa from the embassy.

I didn't know the larger airports tended to be more strict. So I might do better flying into Pattaya etc?

I was thinking about extending my current visa but since they weren't happy about me coming in at all this time and only gave me 2 weeks instead of 30 days I figured it would either get knocked back or look a bit bad/cheeky and make it difficult to enter next time.

But anyway, it sounds like you're saying as long as I enter by land I shouldn't have trouble doing it twice per year and I'll be able to extend each of those? That would be great, it would give me a total of four months (which inlcuding time out of Thailand at about 20-30 days at a time would give me a fair bit longer) and that would give me enough time to either sort out work or something, or to give up on Thailand and find an alternative. I get the impression that I may not do too well at a land border without a visa though (or even with one!). In the office at DMK they reminded me multiple times that having a visa in advance doesn't guarantee entry into Thailand and they pointed to a poster on the wall which said this.

It would be great if this country could decide on some rules, make them known, and stick to them.

4 minutes ago, Caldera said:

That they didn't deny you entry outright made me say that, and I was only half joking. Letting you in, albeit for a shorter-than-usual time, is a more measured response in comparison.

 

While I'm not a fan of their unofficial rules (at all), I'm all for giving people fair warning instead of just sending them back for no good reason whatsoever, causing a lot more hassle than granting at least a short stay.

Oh, absolutely, it was much better to let me in for two weeks rather than send me back (which would legally require sending me back to Vietnam, which I wouldn't have had a visa for and would have been a big hassle for everyone involved, not just myself. To do that would just be insane, though hey, sometimes people do ridiculous things. It's annoying that they couldn't give me a clear answer about when I'm allowed back though. I'm going to follow the rules if they make them clear, but without clarity I'm not really sure what I can do.

51 minutes ago, mockingbird said:

OP, If you're not willing to pay for an Elite visa, then your best option is to alternate with another country in the region.

3 months in/3 months out, and you shouldn't have any issues.

 

If you're adamant on spending your time in Thailand, then an education visa would buy you some more time, but then you're back to square 1.

Another option would be to use multi entry tourist visa's obtained from your home country, but you'd have to avoid all airport entries into Thailand. (even then, there is no guarantees)

 

... or else marry a local.

3 months in 3 months out doesn't really work for me. I know that's an option, but not one which interests me. I'd get a job or choose another country before doing that.

Yes, I realise that an education visa is just a short term solution, but it might give me enough time to work out something more suitable, whether that's sorting out work or settling on another country or whatever else I might want to do. They hadn't given me any warning and just suddenly told me I wasn't able to keep using the visas as I had, I was planning on spending this month in Thailand, but my plans have suddenly had to change.

I'm a bit puzzled about your next suggestion. A multiple entry tourist visa obtained from my home country would be great if I could get one. I'm not sure what the options are of it the 180 day unofficial rule would apply. I am very puzzled about you saying I would have to avoid airport entries (I'd have thought that would be better than entering by land), and of course I couldn't enter by land from Australia, but hey, if I could get that visa in Australia then fly to Malaysia or something then come by land I'd be happy enough, strange as it would be. Are they more willing to give longer term multiple entry tourist visas than 60 day single entry visas?

Thanks for your post.

49 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Report back on your trip to imm office, esp if it's CW zoo. 

It's December if you have not used your 2 exempt border entries per calendar year you can. Then 2020 you obtain 2 more and extend each one.

Love the quote "Ed visa might buy me some time". Priceless

I'm not sure what CW zoo means.

I don't think the land border entries thing is relevant. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume that if I was to leave Thailand right now and come back by land next week (I've only entered by land once this calendar year) they'd either not let me in or give me only a short stay. I doubt the situation would change much on January 1, but I'm not sure, perhaps their unofficial 180 day rule would reset. Either way, the number of land entries isn't my issue. Perfectly happy to take planes rather than buses if it makes any difference, but it doesn't seem to.

59 minutes ago, Caldera said:

They seem to be softening at DMK, interesting.

What makes you say they're softening? This is the airport where they pulled me into the office, made me wait around, and gave me only two weeks rather than 30 days.

If I considered myself well aware of all options I wouldn't be asking for advice. Maybe there's something I don't know about, maybe there's something I haven't thought of, and as I said, I'm not sure about the terms of work and study visas so I have specified things I don't know which I'd like to. If someone said 'you can do courses in 3 month units and you get 5 month study visas when you do them' I'd be happy to hear it. As it is, I have no idea what's involved. That's why I'm asking here and going to immigration tomorrow to hopefully get answers.

At this point I've only just had the news sprung on me, so and education visa buying me some time might do the trick. What's wrong with that? I was hoping for a better option but if not I may go for it.

I'm aware of other countries I can go to, there's a whole world to choose from including my home country which I don't need a visa for. I was asking about my options for being able to spend time in Thailand. I'm not sure how you think anything you've said is in any way helpful, but thanks all the same.

Immigration office may have zip to do with passport control at airports, although passport control at the airport suggested I go there to get clarification. It may end up being a waste of time, but hey, it certainly won't be any worse than your input.

Thanks for the replies, much appreciated. Yes, I'm under 50.

Is the 180 days per calendar year or within any 365 day period, or being an unofficial rule is it basically up to the vague, whimsical discretion of whoever is processing you at the border? If it's per calendar year, well, it's December so that gives me some time to work something out. If not, I guess I'm going to have to work something out quickly or leave.

Not really too fussed in debating the wisdom or lack thereof in regard to why they have the rules they do and how they enforce them. It's an interesting topic but I just need to know what to do.

If it comes down to it I actually might consider working or studying for 6 months or so, although realistically that would probably wear thin and I'd end up skipping over to somewhere happy for me to just spend money there and thank or ignore me for it. If I was to go for either a work or study visa, what would be the easiest (least hours required and most flexibility offered) way to do that? I'd certainly be happy enough to work a day or two per week if it was possible to do that little and satisfy the visa requirement.

I'll head into the immigration department tomorrow and see if they can offer any advice or clarity on what I'm allowed to do.