spectrum

According to the "order of acquisition" theory, L2 learners acquire features of syntax in a predictable order, regardless of L1 (though I am sure L1 plays a part in ease of acquisition or lack thereof ). Articles are one of the very last features to be acquired. Thus, a L2 speaker at *almost* native-speaker level will still omit articles.

Basic article use is not difficult, but often redundant. There are also many rather subtle and idiosyncratic uses.

I will try to find a good link.

Is there a name for such a thing, as there is for pallinodromes?

No idea ... any suggestions ? A Thai-type name could be good.

If you like wordy stuff like this, a great site is www.fun-with-words.com .

And if you don't, go hang a salami; I'm a lasagna hog!

You could try the Chiang Mai Cattery, run by Prof. Edward Rose, a.k.a "Uncle Cat". There's a story about him here :

http://www.chiangmai-mail.com/056/success.shtml

See also http://www.korat-cat.com/quest3.htm

Not sure if the CM Cattery has a website, and not sure how to give the address. Another poster may be able to.

However, I could give you a phone number by p.m. if you are interested.

I hope the moderators will not castigate me for being off-topic, but one of life's simple, if slightly unhealthy, pleasures must be the Fried Egg Sandwich.

*** Do not attempt this without a bottle of Worcestershire Sauce at hand.

1. Heat good oil (I use olive oil for everything nowadays) in good solid fry pan ( I only have a thin wok - gets very smoky.)

2. Break 2 eggs into fry pan. Turn as needed. Allow eggs to cook slowly, until a crisp brown lace has formed around the edges.

3. Have toast of your favourite bread ready for addition of fried eggs.

4. Douse generously with Wostershire sauce.

For health reasons, wait about a week before repeating . This prevents addiction, which could be dangerous.

What a wonderful thread .

Place eggs in pot and cover with cold water sufficiently. Add dash to half tsp of salt to h2o. Place eggs over med to high heat. Allow to come to boil for one to 5 minutes, depending on the doneness of the yolks you want. Take pot off the stove and drain off hot h2o as you also add in new cool h2o. Never let the hot eggs be exposed to the air !! This makes them cling to the shell surface and really hard to peel. keep them under water at all times as much as possible. Change h2o once or twice given you have the time, or let them sit in the h2o till cooled. Then peel.

This is precisely as my Australian mother taught me.

The little egg-prick doovers, so far as I know, are to prevent the shell breaking while boiling. My German Grade 6 teacher (in Oz) wasa great enthusiast. She told our class about them and offered to buy (at no profit) for our families. We did get one - guess it seemed kinda compulsory - but I think we stopped using it before long.

Does anyone recall a heavy ceramic disc one put in the saucepan when poaching eggs ? It prevented ... something; I was just a kid.

Eggs here do seem fresher, as does the chicken.

My house is now alarmed up to the eyeballs

Milton, could you elaborate, please ? Can you recommend companies who can do this or did you DIY ?

Extremely sorry to hear that, m_s .

In a recent thread about security, someone mentioned some pawn shops in the city that could be worth checking. I am sure all the forumites will be keeping a keen eye open.

BTW, data back-ups should be kept in a different location altogether from the computer, in case of fire.

The security issue has been on my mind recently, too. What can we do to protect ourselves more effectively ? It seems the best protection (once locks, lights etc. are taken care of) is having people present, and/or watching. It's not always so easy, in practice, for foreigners to get this kind of support system happening. There might well be a good business idea there for someone.

Perhaps we could try to get some kind of "Neighbourhood Watch" system going ? That has proven effective in Oz.

Anyone know where to get an "electric fence" here ?

Again, my commiserations to Mr. m_s.

a prestigous english school

Classic !

How about ...

Deceiver.

[Antonyms: dupe.][Nouns] deceiver (deceive [more]); dissembler, hypocrite; sophist, Pharisee, Jesuit, Mawworm, Pecksniff, Joseph Surface, Tartuffe, Janus; serpent, snake in the grass, cockatrice, Judas, wolf in sheep's clothing; jilt; shuffler, stool pigeon.

liar (lie [more]); story-teller, perjurer, false witness, menteur a triple etage, Scapin; bunko steerer [u.S.], carpetbagger [u.S.], capper [u.S.], faker, fraud, four flusher, horse coper, ringer, spieler, straw bidder [u.S.].

imposter, pretender, soi-disant, humbug; adventurer; Cagliostro, Fernam Mendez Pinto; ass in lion's skin (bungler) [more]; actor (stage player) [more].

quack, charlatan, mountebank, saltimbanco, saltimbanque, empiric, quacksalver, medicaster, Rosicrucian, gypsy; man of straw.

conjuror, juggler, trickster, prestigitator jockey; crimp, decoy, decoy duck; rogue, knave, cheat; swindler (thief) [more]; jobber.

[Phrases] "saint abroad and a devil at home" [bunyan].

?

a Thai School Calendar would be very nice

yes, it would

In some other countries the absence of information is a cultural tendency exploited as a control mechanism.

In Thailand, it is just sheer ...

um, pass the som tam.

(Scene from Thai teachers' room. Time : 11.30 a.m.

Thai teacher (eating contentedly) : Do you have a class today ?

Foreign teacher : Not until 1.00 o'clock. How about you ?

Tt (contentendly) : I have one at 11.00. )

The Cert Ed can be used without a degree in UK schools so it *should* be acceptable in Thailand. What do you think?

However, I am wondering what these teachers are trained to teach ( physics ? woodwork ? French literature ? ESL ? EFL ? ) and if their expertise is matched with the demands of the job in Thailand. I think , most teaching jobs here are EFL, though I do see others advertised.

Is it on the basis of a good teacher can teach anything and as long as they are 2 pages ahead of their students in the book it is ok?

I think it's on the basis of the white face selection method in combination with the we have no idea whatsoever method.

Australia has a roughly similar system to the UK, it seems. Four (? three) years B.Ed for primary teachers, degree plus one year Dip. Ed. for secondary and of course no educational training needed for tertiary level teaching . In my experience, you needed to work at building knowledge and skills with just a degree plus Dip Ed. Primary teachers had a far more thorough understanding of the learning process and tended to be very "people oriented" types; good EQ, loved kids & had always wanted to be teachers (all of these not always the case for 2ndry). Primary teachers knew stuff like how to teach a child to read and write, and the cognitive process involved. (Even Hong Kong did not understand that the foreign English teachers they needed in their classrooms were not the ones who had been teaching English as a subject back home, without TESOL skills or training.)

I would not hold my breath waiting for Thai schools to see if a teachers qual's and experience match the demands of the teaching position.

That said; even though what I am about to say would suggest I care nothing about quality of education (I do, of course), the demands of the job here may not be terribly demanding, so if you're a decently educated, decently well-spoken, literate and harmless sort of specimen, it probably isn't very important which qualifications you have. So long as untrained/inexperienced teachers understand their limitations in the classroom, they should have something to offer. Bravo to all those decent, chalk-covered guys and gals sweating and listening and articulating patiently, in overpopulated unairconditioned classrooms around the land for giving Thai kids their first experience of a native English speaker and authentic foreign devil; all for a mere stipend.

In other words, I suspect the B.Ed "requirement" might often be no more than a gesture in what is imagined to be the right direction.

The entire academic year for most Thai schools begins in May, roughly middle of May. Most Thai recruiters put their ads up in late April, or second week of May.

My excuse is that I come from the deep South of the Southern hemisphere and Christmas has not been in summer, as it should be, since I crossed the equator. I am waiting to see if it will take a year for the cat to know when to moult (U.S. "shed").

Yes. May, not far away and it will be interesting.

The entire academic year for most Thai schools begins in May, roughly middle of May. Most Thai recruiters put their ads up in late April, or second week of May.

But are there really schools advertising positions a whole 2 weeks ahead ? Those must be the big international schools who get applicants from around the world; super-teachers who can demonstrate their formidable organisational skills and cultural adaptabilty by accomplishing an international relocation within this time frame. .

Seems we still don't have much idea of what's needed from/ by whom ?

I suppose the proverbial fan-hitting time will be September, when the new terms start for the kind of schools who might be expected to have their teachers working legally.

Or perhaps the whole idea will evaporate during the summer.

Best way to find out is to visit (or have someone else visit), ask to watch a class or classes, talk with current students and meet the teachers.

(in addition to asking here and on other teaching sites)

Perhaps you could ask at the relevant Embassy ?

Watch out.

Tomorrow Asia, next week the world .

ANS: (...) Our program is not big enough to where we can separate the students based upon level of English proficiency. As an Aj myself, I have to assume that the students in my class have the requisite English skills as I do not teach English in my classes. If they cannot keep up, they fail.

Why does the program allow students with IELTS scores of 5.00 to enter mainstream courses at all ? I have heard of many institutions in Asia (usually offshoots of overseas Universities) running "academic" programs for students with inadequate levels of English, but never as low as band 5. Plus, these programs had students with the same first language, so bilingual teachers could - and did - "cheat" when the going got tough. To then throw native speakers into such a classroom seems like a positively foolproof recipe for a lose/lose/lose/lose/lose situation (non-native Eng speaking student/native Eng speaking student/teacher/fee-payer/reputation of institution).

(There may be examples of individuals who succeed, most likely with a good deal of support via translation. I am glad the immersion environment helped some students achieve fluency in English ! However, in general, a policy of this kind is hardly good practice, as I am sure you are keenly aware.)

Why does Payap use the IELTS result at all, if not willing to follow the British Council guidelines quoted earlier regarding their use ?

If students are willing to pay, why not keep them in the English program a little longer ?

It just seems perverse and puzzing to me.

It certainly demonstrates the extent to which a degree in English is valued.

My last post on this topic.

Thanks for your replies, PIA.

Does anyone remember the name of the newspaper cartoon strip which had a character with the wonderful qualification of "B.A. Calcutta (failed)" ?

Can't imagine what made me think of that.

Jimjim :

She's a love scammer.

That's a great phrase ! Have not heard it before. Did you coin it ?

Thanks.

And even more crappy, every student who english is not native, must take a full english course every weekend with the thai students...even the fact that I have degrees from Australia and the UK....way to go, waste of time and money : -)

PIA, is this correct ? Does every non-native English speaker have to take English classes and pay for them ? Regardless of prior academic achievement and IELTS/TOEFL result ?

If a student's English is insufficient, why would he/she be taking courses of any kind other than English courses ?

Forgive me if it appears I'm on an anti-Payap mission. I'm not. It's this trend in "education" I dislike. Many (far too many) reputable Universities in the UK, New Zealand and Australia (there may be other countries on the list) have off-shoots in Asia (and again, there may be other parts of the world) to bring in cash for the home operations. To some extent, some of the poorer nations are now helping fund the (genuine) education of some of the richer ones.

Payap would appear to be a purely local operation, though - is that corrrect ?

We actually do have a requirement for our Thai professors in the international program to have obtained at least a portion of their college education in an English-speaking university. As they would have to teach in English, this makes sense.

Do they also have TEFL training and a high IELTS/TOEFL score ? Do they sometimes use Thai in class or teach exclusively in English ?

Thanks for responding, PIA.

Spectrum:

Re "native English speakers (taking) English classes alongside non-native English speakers, as one poster above stated was his/her experience?"

I'd like to repeat my earlier statement that you cannot "pass" IELTS.

IELTS band 5 is extremely low for academic courses in English. Band 5 is a "modest user" , "has partial command of the language, coping with overall meaning in most situations* , though is likely to make many mistakes. Should be able to handle basic communication in own field. " (http://www.cambridgeesol.org/teach/ielts/general_training_writing/data/ielts_handbook_page4.pdf )

*This refers to everyday life situations, not academic ones.

Under the British Council IELTS handbook guidelines, at bands 5.5 and 6, English study is still needed for all courses (gradings from low to high : Linguistically less demanding training courses e.g. Animal Husbandry, Catering, Fire Services; Linguistically demanding training courses e.g. Air Traffic Control, Engineering, Pure Applied Sciences, Industrial Safety; Linguistically less demanding academic courses e.g. Agriculture, Pure Mathematics, Technology, Computer-based work, Telecommunications; Linguistically demanding academic courses e.g. Medicine, Law, Linguistics, Journalism, Library Studies ).

It is not until band 6.5 that further English study is not recommended and is "probably acceptable" for linguistically less demanding academic courses. Band 7 is "probably acceptable" for linguistically less demanding courses. Bands 7.5 - 9 (9 is native-speaker level) are considered acceptable for either type of academic course. Many teachers would advise students to get beyond 7.5 before undertaking genuine academic study in mainstream Universities for more demanding courses.

Band 5 students studying together with native speakers ? Could you give some examples of the courses they are taking ? (I could not quite follow your response below. I genuinely hope I am misunderstanding something here. ) Sorry, but reputable institutions follow the guidelines above. You cannot possibly be teaching material at academic level if band 5 level students can understand it. Not even close.

(TOEFL I have found to be a quite unreliable indicator of ability to use English, so no comment.)

What are the fees for these courses ? Could you give us some examples ?

We've got some good ones ...some of the most decent, hard-working kids you'll ever meet.

I am sure you have. Kids whose families scraped together the money for the fees. I sure hope some doors do open for them.

I hope the owners of Payap throw a few baht of the profits over to CMU and Rajabhat, so their (non fee-paying) programs can be expanded.

Sorry if I am harsh. I have seen too many "educational" cash cows of this kind. I am tired of seeing education become an industry, and good practice thrown out the window.

Spectrum, if you meant kash, by his own admission, he is not a native English speaker, although he did state he has degrees from Australia and the UK. Nevertheless, I agree it does seem a bit odd that previous academic merits from two English-speaking countries would not be deemed sufficient to qualify for taking courses taught in English at a Thai university.

Indeed, not all native speakers of English would test at the levels Universities require of foreign students . There's an argument for testing everyone, whether native or non-native speaker, with an instrument like IELTS or TOEFL, but of course that's not what usually occurs.

However, the English levels required for overseas students applying to Universities in English-speaking countries usually vary according to the course. Computing/engineering courses are popular with foreign students in English-speaking countries because the language demands are less than those in courses such as Law or Literature. If previous degrees required a lower language level, I can understand the testing and teaching of English skills.

I am also interested in a comment (from the Payap representative) on m_s's other observation :

That sounds a bit different from what kash was saying... or is the IEP taught on weekends?

If the students' language levels are inadequate, teaching the content course and the language simultaneously is not good practice. Standard practice is to give intensive language classes until the student tests at the required level. A great money-earner, too .

Good to see you taking part here, Payap Int. Admissions.

I am curious - is it still the case that native English speakers are required to take English classes alongside non-native English speakers, as one poster above stated was his/her experience ?

By the way, IELTS cannot be "passed" or "failed". It is a system which rates students' English language skills, for reading, writing, listening and speaking, on a scale of 0 to 9. What overall IELTS band is minimum for your program ?

Also, what's the minimum TOEFL score ?

Thanks.

P.S. Regarding your last para,

Lastly—and more my personal opinion than fact—a bachelor's degree earned at Payap is as good as any other bachelor's degree. Let me explain. While I understand that a Harvard MBA will certainly mean more than the same from say, North Texas State University or some other obscure US school, not every job looks at your education that way. All most employers' care about is that you have a bachelor's degree. Unless you intend to land a job in some high-powered Wall Street firm or teach at Harvard, the source of your degree is secondary. In my previous life, I worked for the US government and I can assure you that the reputation of your school meant little when it comes to senior level GS positions.

while this may be true (so far as long-term outcomes are concerned) it would not exactly go far in assuring a potential student of the high quality of your program, if high quality is what they are seeking.

China i think also - + medical and litany of other paperwork.

Not in my experience, unless we include Hong Kong. In mainland China, it's far simpler for foreign teachers than in Thailand, and lacks the cost of leaving the country to get your visa.

Also wanted to add that the "criminal record" was not required for an O Visa in Vientiane. They were targeting teachers. Other B-visa applicants were not required to produce this paper.

Finally, I'd repeat that you need to be very careful about teaching on a tourist visa, esp in BKK.

Good luckto everyone. Hope this does clean up the teaching scene, but thecomplete absence of warning must have left many in a tricky spot.

Has anyone established what exactly is the required paper and where it can be procured ? What if you have taught in a number of countries ??

Two days ago in Vientiane, Laos, a number of teachers were refused visas other than tourist visas due to a lack of a "criminal record". We wondered how to get one most easily. There was no answer to that, and I pity the poor clerk who was the bearer of the bad news. He had a checklist which was returned to applicants and the absence of a "criminal record" meant you could not pass go.

Teachers in BKK, esp. in the International schools, had better exercise extreme caution about working on a tourist visa.

I guess this may be some ham-fisted way of making schools do better background checks. They undeniably should. However, teachers from the same schools had not been required to produce this document just two days previously and no alert had been isssued.

I think the question now becomes : What exactly is this document they require ? Who would issue it ? Does it apply to every country you may have taught in ?