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matcube
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Posts posted by matcube
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We have 2 daughters, 5 and 3 y.o. and a younger brother (1;5). The sisters speak English to me, Thai (used to be Eng) with mum, Italian with the community (where we live). The daughters *usually* (neutrally) initiate a conversation in English, unless mum or other thai people are actively around (=> thai is used). When cousins or other italian friends are around they may speak Italian among themselves, although English is still predominant (we have lived here only for one year +).
If I may recommend a book on the subject, read "The Bilingual Family" by Edith Harding-Esch and Philip Riley, where the authors expose different situations. Part of the book is dedicated to convincing you that bilingual is better, fact that you have probably already decided anyway, but it is still a good read.
matcube
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Thanks Maestro.
I have no problem with the children's seats, just the number of people. If I try to drive in, would they stop me at the border? Can the extra person just walk through it and be picked up 500 meters after the border?
matcube
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I am planning a car trip to Switzerland, 3 adults and 3 kids (below 4 y.o). Is it legal to drive there on a regular (5 seat) car? Would they let me in at the border (coming from Italy)? Please only informed answers. Few Italians for instance know that it is perfectly legal in Italy (if you can read Italian and you go to the poliziadistato.it official website, at the page pds/faq_new/index.php?idr=175&idcat=182&id=456 the question number 11 precisely states so). I know in Italy this law is not so much in the open, but at the end it is legal. How about Switzerland?
matcube
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I second Samran reply. And in fact, what a coincidence I am reading this topic just the night before our move back to the west, 80% of the reason being our 3 kids future (4, 2, and newborn). Yes, our move may even be too early, but there are other reasons as well that made the decision become real now as opposed to in 2-3 years, when it would have made more sense.
matcube.
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It's so funny that the simple original Chanchao question -which, BTW, very few of us have answered, as Gummy pointed out- sparkled such a life debate in this -usually quite sober- forum.
Just to add my two cents, albeit out of topic (or, if you want, one of the subtopics that has been discussed within the main topic), I can't quite find a convincing reason for sending the children to bed at - say - 7PM, rather than - say - 10PM. If no school, of course. What we call "7" will be called "8" when there is daylight saving time, or will be called 10 for people that live 3 time zones from you. If they go to sleep at 7 they get up at - say - 6 AM, if they go at 10 they will get up at 9AM. If you are horrified by those numbers, just change the time in the children's room's watch, and you will be all set.
I am not saying that I am absolutely in favor of sending them to sleep late, I just can't find a logical reason why one should be against it. As long as it is according to a routine, and regular time every day.... what am I missing?
[sorry Chanchao for "stealing" the topic, but I am not the first one... Should I actually start a separate thread on "bedtime for children" and leave this one with the (still rather little) statistics about ages to let children go to bars?]
matcube
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Milk: my first one (3y 6 months now) was on tooth brushing then milk until few months ago. Lately we switched to milk first, then brushing. Now, given the choice, she would go with milk then brushing; once the routine is established it will be easy. As far as drinking from the bottle, we have no concerns, I read it's not a big deal. After all, she can drink without problem from a glass, it's just she likes milk that way, morning and night. One day she will give up by herself.
Dummy: In both cases (now 3y6m, 1y7m) we lost it in places where it wasn't easy to find a replacement. It took us 4 nights of desperation, and then it was it. They were 2 year old and 1 year old when it happened, so I don't know if for a 3.4 would be the same. It's going to be harder to explain that you just lost it (and cannot buy another one) or that the dog ate it, but you can try, it worked with us.
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keestha,
you should definitely speak either dutch or english to your child from the very first day. My first daughter spent her first 24 months of her life in Italy, where the only thai speaking person she interacted with was my wife - if we exclude two short visits (from and to) the grandparents. When we moved to Thailand the day of her 2nd birthday, her thai was almost as good as her Italian. I subsequently introduced English, thanks to the school.
I wouldn't be worried about corrupting her thai with your accent, that won't happen, but I would not want to let go the chance to teach her a language that she would have a hard time to learn as an adult.
The major impediment I see it's that when children are young (below 2) you often don't speak to the children, you speak to the adults. Example, you may tell your child "go get the pen from mummy" and if your wife has no clue of what you are talking about, it's going to be hard. You could try to repeat the sentence twice, in two languages, I am not sure, I have never tried. Other opinions may be valuable here, in my case my wife and I spoke the three languages (italian, thai, and english) so we didn't have this problem, but I remember when I first tried to introduce English while in Italy it was really really hard, exactly because the people around me wouldn't understand and could not be "partners" in the talk-game with the kid.
Matcube
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Hi sutnyod,
Thanks for your supporting and interesting message. It would be nice to hear your (and your kids') stories, I am sure you have some interesting ones to tell. The reason why I was (and partly still am) concerned is that I have come across several examples of kids that learned a language and later "lost it". I am not concerned about the number of languages one kid can pick up, but rather, by the fact that if he is not exposed or doesn't feel the need to use one of them, he will most likely lose it. My 3 1/2 year old daughter is now fluent in Thai and Italian, and speaks to me in English, which is the school language. Soon we are moving back to Italy, and since I don't plan to send her to an English speaking school there, I am afraid she will switch back and speak Italian to me, and English will become a thing of the past, that's why I was looking for ways to boost up her English as much as possible before the move.
Matcube
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You are on a flight that arrives on the 20th and will probably get that stamp even if you wait in line until the next day. [...]
On the way out, I flew out of Thailand at 2.00 AM last time on a day that would have been my 31st, but made sure to pass immigration before midnight. They didn't check my ticket, if I remember right. They don't check your ticket either when you come in, but your flight info is supposedly written on the form.
Lopburi3's is theoretically a good argument, and knowing Lopburi3 it should be considered, but I doubt it, they don't switch the date back and forth on their stamp according to whom is crossing the border: now we have someone whose flight landed at 11.55, next one in line came with a 12.05 flight... and so on. It doesn't make a lot of sense, especially what to do for a flight scheduled at 11.50 that landed at 12.10? Or someone that thought to be safe by landing at 12.05 and the flight happened to be ahead of time and landed at 11.55, it's not his fault! What they do, in my opinion, is that at some point they change the stamp to show the next day and everybody will be affected regardless of their flight.
I would not be worried that you arrive at the immigration point after midnight: you will, and if not you can just go to the toilet or hang around. What I would be more worried about is: are they going to change the date of their stamp at 12.00 sharp? Suppose you walk passed at 12.10, you can't quite ask "are you going to stamp with tomorrow's date, since it's past midnight right?" nor can you complain once they have stamped it... so there is still some risk involved. If you have a companion (or meet someone on the plane) that doesn't have this problem, you could ask him to go past before you, and then give you a hand signal (or an SMS) as to what date he was stamped.
Matcube
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I cannot reply much but adding that you post it in the wrong forum, this one is for visa to thailand. The next forum down is for visa to go abroad, post there and check, you may find more help and readers.
p.s. I don't know about UK, but for Italy I know for certain that as hard it is to get a visa a "normal" person, as soon as you have an Italian child, even if you are not married and the kid's father is nowhere to be found (which is much worse than your case), a family visa to the mum could not be denied, since the child has the right to go back to his own country and the mum has the right/duty to accompany him. (much different than having a thai son and try to get a visa to stay in thailand)
Matcube.
pp.ss I just noticed that after my post (which I am editing) someone moved down the topic in the right forum, as I was suggesting. Thanks.
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Keep in mind, however, the way they count days (they don't know how).
You can't be 1 day late, for instance. Suppose your 90 day reporting expires - say - Dec 1, then on the 1st you would be ok (no delay), but on the 2nd you would be "one, two" two days late (amazing, but consistently applied). So to count your 7 day window, remember that the 7th day delay (according to the rest of the world way of counting) will be counted as the eighth, no matter how hard you will try to teach them to count properly.
Matcube
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My first experience with taxis at Suwannapum was not the best. I live in Pathum Thani (not far from Don Muang, I was used to be conveniently located). No taxi from the official arrival area would take me there on a meter. There is a big sign that says "fees is determined by meter, tollways and 50 baht airport surcharge). So, why do you propose me a flat rate? Ok, Pathum Thani is not downtown, but I am not asking to be taken to Lampang either!...
It's the first time that no taxi would take me on a meter. When I walked away other drivers would approach me, but none of them would take me on a meter. I am a farang but can speak thai, didn't help. I am not sure I would have saved (well, I think I would have saved some, taxi fare is about 4.5 baht/ km, they asked for 600 baht for a 70-80 km trip, add toll and surcharge, there is still room), but it's the concept I was looking for.
With hindsight, it was better I walked away, I took a 35 baht bus to Rangsit and from there a 100 baht (meter) taxi home.
Matcube
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Nov Rain,
Do I understand correctly that you and your (step) son live in Thailand? Do you plan to live here for at least another 1-2 years? How old is your son? If you live in Thailand, your son will become fluent in Thai even if you tried to prevent it (just to stress the impossibility that your son won't be fluent). Mechanism and timing of learning depends case by case, but I have yet to see (and I came across dozen of cases in several Countries) a child that doesn't learn the local language.
Just as an extreme example, the daughter of an Italian couple emigrated to Canada was spoken to in Italian at home, and barely knew any English. Two weeks after entering school (at the age of 5 or 6) one day she came home, and to the astonished parents she said, in English: "I don't understand you guys any more" (maybe not those exact words, I wasn't there :-) ), and from that moment on she stop speaking Italian (although she still understands it, she is now 23).
Matt
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On a bit more helpful note, why not try getting in touch with the international school in Lampang? It's called Nawattaphum, or something along those lines. [...]
Thanks, yes, that's the plan, at least for the oldest one (for the moment). I kind of know the school (not personally). As a side question, since you bring it up, anybody has experience with it? My kid was enrolled in an English nursery school in BKK and got some English out of it, but with most of the kids thai-speaking and all assistants thai with a limited English vocabulary and pronunciation, she didn't get as much as I expected (well, let's say as much as I expected, not as much as I had hoped). For Lampang, my hopes/expectations are much lower).
matt
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Ok, I think the topic think_too_mut started in the original "English Speaking Children In Lampang" is interesting enough to dedicate its own topic (at least there are two people interested, me and think_too_mut).
To start answering thinks' original question: there are several reasons why I would like my kids to interact with other English-speaking ones:
1) I am the only one who ends up speaking English to them
2) There are long periods of time when I won't be around (more than a month)
3) I am not a native English speaker
4) Kids learn a lot from peers
5) Kids may refuse to learn at all if they don't see that the environment around them speaks that language. This is not a rule and not always the case, but I have seen several examples.
I am happy to elaborate/discuss/reply/add to this initial points, later though since it's bedtime now.
Matt
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He's only trying to give an idea don't crucify the poor guy for that!
Sure, that wasn't my intention. My intention was to "save" the topic in that as soon as we reach page 2 people will only see this side-discussion (of which I am a big part, so my fault too here) and won't even know or be able to read what my initial posting was about. I have seen in many times in forums. So, I will stop adding my part of "junk" in this post and apologize again if anybody misinterpreted my initial reply.
Matt
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think_too_mut,
thanks for your question, I can reply to you (maybe later or in another topic, no time now). I didn't want to sound offensive, but it's like (taken to the extreme): you put up a classified that you want to sell your motorcycle. Then you receive a phone call from someone telling you:
"I am calling you about the motorcycle. No, I am not interested in buying it, in fact I wanted to tell you, why do you want to sell a motorcycle, motorcycle are excellent means of transportation ...."
what would your reaction be?
Cheers.
Matt
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What they need is what they already have - you.
IMO, others should be seeking your kids' company.
It's too long explaining why I would like to do that, plus it's a bit off topic. After all, either you have kids that meet the criteria and you are interested, or you don't, and in that second case I don't see the need for a reply to my message. (nothing offensive is intended in this message of mine, it's hard to convey the emotions in forums and often it gets out of hand without any real reason).
Matt
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Hi there,
I am moving to Lampang with my two daughters, 3 and 1.5 years old. They both understand (well, the second one not quite yet) and the first one kind of speaks English, but it's not their first language for sure. I would like to have opportunities for them to play with English speaking kids (preferibly only english, because given the chance she would revert to Thai).
Anybody in the area interested?
Matt
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My impression while reading naturalpoints post is that it didn't mean to be offensive or anything, just quoting (possibly, if he really knows) what the rules are. His ending smiling face should be the proof.
In much the same way as someone asking "can I get a retirement visa if I am 30?" and someone else replying "no mate, you have to become 50!"
It would be quite advanced for Thailand, and I do hope that boonkan can get the visa he wants. I know many so called "more advanced" countries are in fact still in the middle age and would not allow that.
Just wondering, foreign females married to a thai husband are exempt from the 400K money requirement. I wonder what would be the case for foreign males married to a thai husband...
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Thanks. My employer is a university, they don't seem to care much nor be very helpful. It's me who has to go to all offices (alone) bring all docs and pay all fees. I will check with them whether they need the WP back.
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My contract expires on Sept 30, day which I will leave the Kingdom. I have already extended my visa until the 30 upon presenting my contract and copy of the WP and current letter of employement.
My WP so far is valid until the 21 of Sept, in fact the next step should be to go and renew it. However, I am considering non extending it for the last remaining week, or else it's more the time I'd spend in the Thai immigration/labour and related offices than I'd spend at work. (not to mention that it's their fault that if you get a one year work contract they fail to issue a one year work permit, they always break it into two pieces, "stopping" first at the date you entered the country the first time).
When I do leave on Sept 30, would they ask for my WP? Can they (I am sure they can, but do they usually?) cross-check I renewed it?
Also, what am I supposed to do with my WP? Return it? Can I mail it in once I left Thailand, saying "sorry I forgot"?
And finally, should one day (not likely within the next 2 years) come back and work in TH, would I have troubles for not having followed the "correct" protocol (provided there is one)?
Any advice apreciated. Thanks.
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Matcube ... weren't you on a non-immB before?
I am on a non-imm B expiring Sept 21 renewable until Sept 30 (my last day of work). I qualify for Non-imm O or can get a family permit of stay but timing is against me because it would be ready when I am abroad (see the other recent topic of mine).
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I went to look at that web page and the link for the non-immigrant O visa says that the fee is EUR 50 per entry (original Italian text: Il costo del visto è di 50 Euro/una entrata)
... and in English it says "Note: Visa fee is 50 Euro for one entry." and also "Documents to be attached to the request to obtain a Non Immigrant visa for a stay of 90 days in Thailand."
I called them and they explicitly said that since June 2005, they only issue 90 days for family, and that "you'll get the one year extension right away once in Bankok" provided that you show "an account of 800,000 baht". Yes, they are incredibly uninformed, which pisses me off. I didn't call Rome, but the website seems to confirm that (plus going to Rome for a visa is not an option anyway).
New Born. Trilingual House
in Family and Children
Posted
Hi Petitchevre,
there are at least 2 or three other topics in the Family forum dealing with bi-multi lingual families, you will find many different scenarios and comments. From what I have read, and several trilingual families I know, f you want your kids to learn three languages, and you just act naturally, they will learn them. You don't need to make any particular effort, but you should neither start thinking "ooh, it's too much for such a young child"... also, you should never try to impose any language to them, or they will reject them.
My first daughter (5 y.o. now) was brought up with two languages and the third one when she turned 3. With the second one (now three y.o.) we used two languages up to age two and then introduced the third one. They sound trilingual to me now. The third one is now 1 y and a half and is the first one being brought up with three languages; so far he seems to be receptive and understanding (and starting to talk) all of them, let's see in a year or so.
As for your questions, here are some hints of mine:
If you like reading, I can tell you some books I read that I found helpful. I haven't read 100 books so to advise you on the best, I read only a few and I will give you two titles, but you can search for more. I am sure other people would have different advice/opinions:
Steven Pinker - The language insticnt
Edith Harding-Esch and Philip Riley - The Bilingual Family: A Handbook for Parents
Don't be obsessed with perfection. As long as they can understand, speak, and have plenty of chances to interact, they will adjust their knowledge and fluency.
The first book I recommended you advice against speaking a language that is not 100% "yours". I don't agree 100%. I am not native English speaker, still my daughter got a good grasp of English. Sure, at first she had an Italian/American accent, twisted with Indian accent from the teacher at nursery. Later on she moved to a kindergarden with British teachers and her accent changed to British so quickly. So, if your English is good enough to be able to talk fluently don't worry about the accent. There may be a different issue, though, that is your relationship with her. It's hard to express your deep feelings and thought in a language that is not yours, and this may be a toll in your relationship with the child. Having learned English as adults, and mostly in a work environment, we lack the tools to express what we felt or thought or were told when we were children. That's the only drawback I see, and I can live with it because I know I can switch back to Italian any time I want (but I rather delay it if I can, since now I am the last english-speaking member of the family and we live in Italy).
It's quite hard to find a general answer/technique. Probably whatever you chose will work. And probably, you can experiment and change your mind one or two times during the first year. For instance, with my first one I started off in English (we lived in Italy back then) and my wife in Thai. It didn't quite work out for me. It was so hard to tell a toddler "give the pencil to grandma" if grandma doesn't know what you are talking about, since it's her who has to kneel down and offer her hand so to help the child understand what you are talking about (and many examples like this one). So I gave up English and switched to Italian. Later on we moved to Thailand and enrolled the first one to English nursery. She didn't like it one bit at first. After one month I left for Italy and came back two month later. She probably "forgot" that she used to speak Italian to me, she just started to speak English (simple concept below her thai or italian ability, but stilll). I was amazed!. With the second one it was much easier: while in Thailand, we just kept Thai and English, and when we moved back to Italy (she was two) she just learned the language from scratch in 6 months from relatives and friends.
The only two pieces of advice I would give you is: 1) there is no need for the community language in the house, and 2) if you and your gf can understand each others' language it would help a lot. And don't be worry, it will work out fine!
Matcube