Carrbhoy

25 minutes ago, 2009 said:

Christ, they even tax pensions. Jesus wept.

Replies are not clear......some say as UK dervied income I pay UK tax only.........later replies are saying Thai Tax DTT does apply but I can claim tax credits from the UK for the pension dual payments.....I've asked for this to be clarified.

On 5/19/2023 at 8:22 AM, khunPer said:

The DTA between UK and Thailand says (my bold):

 

Article 19
Governmental Services
(1) (a) Remuneration, other than a pension, paid by a Contracting State or a political
subdivision or a local authority thereof to any individual in respect of services of
a governmental nature rendered to that State or subdivision or local authority
thereof shall be taxable only in that State.
(b) However, such remuneration shall be taxable only in the other Contracting
State if the services are rendered in that State and the recipient is a resident of
that other Contracting State who:
(i) is a national of that State; or
(ii) did not become a resident of that State solely for the purpose of
performing the services.

(2) (a) Any pension paid by the Contracting State or a political subdivision or a local
authority thereof to any individual in respect of services of a governmental nature
rendered to that State or subdivision or local authority thereof shall be taxable
only in that State.
(b) However, such pension shall be taxable only in the other contracting State if
the recipient is a national of and a resident of that State.

(3) The provisions of Articles 16 and 17 shall apply to remuneration in respect of
services rendered in connection with any business carried on by one of the Contracting
States or a political subdivision or local authority thereof.

Thanks for your input - I've replied to this under the other message below.

On 5/19/2023 at 8:54 AM, cleopatra2 said:

The OP pension is non government thus article 19 does not apply.

Because the DTT has no specific articles regarding pensions. There is no relief available for UK tax. To avoid double taxation article 23 applies and UK tax paid on income sourced in the UK can be used as credit against any Thai tax due.

So, this is where the replies so far start to get confusing. Up to reading this, I thought that UK Derived Income eg Corporate Pension / UK Buy To Let Income / UK Bank Interest / UK Equity Dividends are all taxable in the UK as a Non-Resident. No need to involve the Thai tax authorities.

This is now saying, it is taxable by the Thai Tax authorities under the DTT but I can claim a tax credit (not refund) from HMRC under Article 23.

Which is correct?

On 5/18/2023 at 1:57 PM, skorts said:

Carrbhoy
 

I was in a similar situation to you becoming a U.K. Non-resident 5 tax years ago. 

Others have already answered how you are taxed on your U.K/any Thai income. 

As topt says you cannot use HMRC’s on-line system to file your annual tax return on-line as a UK Non-resident. 

HMRC list a number of software providers that can help. I have been using TaxCalc for the last 5 years:

 

www.taxcalc.com

 

It is brilliant and makes filing your return so easy. After setting up your details the first year it pre-populates so much of the required information in subsequent years. 
 

You can include details of your BTL property using the software. 
 

You can also offset the cost of the annual software licence as an expense against your rental property income. 
 

You may already be aware but there are different Capital Gains Tax (CGT) rules for UK Non-residents after being U.K. Non-resident for 5 complete tax years. 
 

I do my tax return filing myself using TaxCalc software but take advice when needed from the Fry Group who are expat tax specialists:

 

www.thefrygroup.co.uk

 

My contact who I met before becoming U.K. Non-resident is based in the U.K.:

 

Dale Butcher

Head of Tax Compliance

[email protected] 

 

After 4 years of Royal Mail postal re-direction from my U.K. address, and not being able to renew again, I set up an on-line mailing account which gives me a U.K. residential street (not PO Box) address:

 

www.ukpostbox.com

 

I use this as it makes my life easier and I can manage all of my U.K. post on-line. 

 

As I am registered with HMRC as U.K. non-resident I have no intention of trying to claim I live in the U.K. when my state pension becomes payable and will advise DWP accordingly - I believe HMRC and DWP’s systems are now linked so the DWP may already know in any case I am U.K. Non-resident. Appreciate that means my state pension will be frozen once payment starts but regardless of how unfair that is I am playing by the rules. 

 

 

 

Thanks Skorts for the detailed reply. This is the position I want to be in.....I'll come back to you with any queries once I've had the opportunity to review the Taxcalc / UK Post box websites.

On 5/18/2023 at 11:21 AM, topt said:

You may well be aware of this already but unless you are filing using commercial software you would (should) file a paper tax return. This is because SA109 which non residents are supposed to file is not available to complete within HMRC's standard online filing. Not sure if property is either?

If so you need to make sure it is received by 31st October.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-right-retire-abroad-return-to-uk

I had picked up that the online submission isn't possible for non residents. I wasn't aware of the different HMRC deadlines so thanks for your input and useful link.

On 5/18/2023 at 11:04 AM, cleopatra2 said:

The OP cannot claim the tax back from UK derived income.

In the case of his pension income he would be able receive credit for the UK tax paid against any Thai tax due.

Thanks for clarifying.

On 5/18/2023 at 10:52 AM, foreverlomsak said:

Easy start the Thai year is Jan to Dec (calendar year).  If you not have a Thai Tax ID, don't worry about it, nobody will chase you. Advice I've seen from HSBC is you can only be taxed if you bring it into Thailand in the tax year you earn it. The only Thai tax I pay is for the minimal interest on my bank savings account they (Bangkok Bank and SCB) give you 0.5% pa paid half yearly and make a 15% tax withholding.

 

If you were to be dual taxed in the UK and then Thailand, you would submit a refund claim to HRMC, but as far as I can see from the UK version it is on a very limited basis, the Thai version appears different.

 

If I was you I wouldn't do anything which may rock the boat and bring you to the taxman's attention.

Thanks for your input. I don't currently have a Thai Tax ID (TIN) - I did a quick google and see that I do meet the criteria. So, should I obtain one?

I see the later reply re claiming a credit rather than a refund. Same outcome as such - I'm now clear on how to get any monies due back.

I think I want to go down the route of getting things in place which comply with both Thai / UK tax requirements from the outset.

On 5/18/2023 at 10:10 AM, Dah fahrang said:

https://www.gov.uk/tax-uk-income-live-abroad

 

This link might help. Very clear, from "the horse's mouth"

20 years ago I became UK non-resident for tax purposes. I was (still am) in similar position as you.

After a lot of (polite) correspondence with HMRC, they made it very explicit.

As a non-resident, you only have to pay HMRC UK tax for any income derived from all/any UK source.  Any foreign/offshore income for non-residents they don't want to know about.

 

 

 

 

 

Appreciate the link and your input. Thank you - very useful.

On 5/18/2023 at 5:40 AM, cleopatra2 said:

When you state UK citizen I assume British National 

With regards to your pension assuming it is UK derived income , it is taxable in the UK even as a non resident for UK tax purposes 

I am unsure on the Buy to let and investment dividends . On these would need to consult the DTT 

Thanks for your response. 

Hi all, first off, not sure these queries fit into this specific forum but I'm sure there are other UK expats who will know the answers or be able to point me in the right direction. If I need to move it to the correct forum, please let me know.

I'm from Scotland so UK citizen. I arrived in Thailand around 19 months ago and have a Retirement permission to stay. Completed my first renewal beginning of April. Travelled within Thailand during this period but not left the country so far.

I therefore meet the UK non-resident criteria for Tax Year 2022/2023.

I receive a UK company pension and have only recently advised them of my Thailand address.

HMRC aren't currently aware I have been living abroad. I've only recently let out my Scottish address and had been using this for post etc. I will notify them soon as part of the Tax Self-Assessment submissions.

Queries:

1) For Tax year 2022 / 2023, do I need to pay Thailand tax for my Income? This consists of a UK company pension (non Government if relevant) & Buy To Let. There is a small amount of Investment dividends.

if so, as I've already paid tax on the Pension element of my income, can I claim a refund from HMRC?

2) Is it best to seek local advice? I was going to make an appointment with Siam Legal in Chiang Mai to progress.

Any assistance or guidance is greatly appreciated.

Regards, C

On 8/3/2022 at 6:43 AM, hotandsticky said:

 

 

I agree 100% that each Immigration office can treat things differently - that is why I would suggest speaking to the local IO for clarification of their requirements.

 

Logic ? says that you have complied with the previous terms of approval by keeping 800k and then dropping tp 400k. The 800k for 2 months prior is directly connected to the upcoming application, the new basis of applying requires 12 x 65k transfers as described above.... BUT.....check with the IO 

Thanks for the reply. I'll definately check with the IO in Chiang Mai before transferring any Cash to ensure I meet with the local requirements. Hopefully, I can reduce the Balance to zero and rely on the monthly 65k transfers.

On 8/3/2022 at 8:42 AM, soisanuk said:

If you use Wise to transfer the 65k to Bangkok Bank AND show the purpose from their drop down menu as Long Stay Thailand, Wis should send the transfer to Bangkok Bank and not another banking partner.  Bangkok Bank uses the "FTT" code for such transfers (Foreign Telegraphic Transfer).  I renewed my extension in June at Immigration's Pattaya Office. They require a separate letter from your bank listing all foreign deposits.  There was no problem in getting the letter from a Bangkok Branch (other than they needed bank statements for the period as my passbook had some "consolidated entries") - they listed all deposits with the FTT code.

Thanks for the reply. I've used this Wise code each month and checked that it does in fact show as FTT on my bank book entry. All good so far.

On 8/3/2022 at 6:41 AM, Wrwest said:

I have used the 65,000 baht transferred in each month for well over a decade now. No minimum bank balance required.

Thanks for your reply. Appreciate the info.

Do you deposit 800k for a couple of months prior to the annual Renewal or not required?

17 hours ago, KannikaP said:

The 800k in the bank (400k after three months) cannot be touched so you still need 'money to live on'. When doing the monthly transfer, be it 65k or less, you can spend every last satang.

It can be touched after I have extended for the first time & successfully met the Payment method of 65k Minimum criteria. This was always Plan A, I just needed guidance and advice on what I could do with the Above 800k monies in the interim.

17 hours ago, hotandsticky said:

Indeed - that is why I will revert to the income method. Tying up 800k for 5 months and 400k for 7 months seems pointless to me 

I'm definitely doing this now that I know it frees up the funds in low interest accounts.

1 minute ago, OJAS said:

I, too, have recently switched from the 65k monthly income to the 800k bank balance method for my retirement extensions - and, like you, have continued with making monthly Wise transfers from my UK account to my Bangkok Bank account even after I had accumulated 800k in a separate Krungsri account well before the 2-month seasoning period kicked in. However, even though I had armed myself with a letter + statements from Bangkok Bank to prove my continuing compliance with the 65k monthly income method, Rayong Immigration didn't ask to see these when I applied for my latest retirement extension there a few weeks ago, and were only interested in the Krunsgri letter which I had obtained + passbook confirming compliance with the 800k method.

 

Our seemingly contrasting experiences sound to me like a typical case of different offices, different requirements. IMHO the OP would therefore be strongly advised to check the position at his local office.

 

Thanks for sharing. I will do.

I'll be armed with evidience of both too. Hopefully Chaing Mai IO will allow me to renew the 12 month permission to stay based on the minimum 65k monthly transfers so I can release the funds in the low interest account which I would like to use for other matters.

Just now, KannikaP said:

Unless your IO will accept the Combination Method as mine does, ie 50k per month = 600k, plus 220k in the bank = 820k

Interesting.....another Option to explore. Thank you.

Does anyone know if Chaing Mai IO do accept the combination method? I will ask next time I'm there.

Just now, KannikaP said:

Why not use the 'excess Baht' to pay for your condo rent, Grab etc. Pointless paying to transfer the money FROM Wise, and then pay to transfer it back.

I'm working through the Options. the transfer costs are significantly less than the increased B2L interest payments I will be incurring after August so it far from pointless. Thanks for your input.

23 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

 

Others will correct me if I am wrong but I would think that you need to keep a minimum 400k in the bank until the extension based on monthly transfers is approved....ie ...you will have satisfied the terms of LAST year's approval.

Ah, is that where the 400k comes into play. So strictly speaking, I could reduce to 400k now and then after the 1st year extension has been granted, reduce to Nil.

My intention is to leave at 800k+ & minimum 12 monthly consequtive transfers but good to know.

2 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

OK.

 

Not sure if it has been covered above but beware of the implications of switching the basis of your extension.

 

I switched from monthly transfers (which I still make) to money in the bank. I could easily have made the mistake of stopping monthly transfers once I had ensured that 800k was in the bank 2 months before. The Immigration first checked that I had complied with the previous basis of the extension before checking that 800k was in the bank for 2 months.

Ok. I will keep a minimum of 800k in the bank until the 1st extension is secured end of Q1 next year. I will also have made 12 (actually 15) monthly transfers of minimum 65k by then too. That was my plan.

I will get the extension and also confirm with Immigration that I can transfer the 800k from the Thai bank account and now move to Monthly Payment method.

1 minute ago, flexomike said:

If you want to do the monthly method you will have to show 12 months of deposits no less than 65,000 baht every month, no exceptions, I wouldn't mess with the 800,000 until after you get an extension using the monthly method. Once you get that extension no requirement to keep any money in the bank

 

That was the plan. I've made the monthly payments of minimum 65k via Wise each month using the correct drop down option for long term stay and will continue to do so (no exceptions). After getting the 1st extension end of Q1 next year, I was going to reduce the bank balance to 400k. That was my understanding until you (and another Poster) confirmed there is no requirement to keep any money in the bank. This is great news - thank you.

18 minutes ago, foreverlomsak said:

If your doing 65k+ per month you do not need any bank balance

Really? I thought it was a minimum of 400k and 65k monthly transfers.  

11 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

Fair comment; I personally wouldn't bother to switch back to Wise, just transfer less on subsequent occasions.

But I would still need to transfer the minimum 65k per month? I want to use the amount above 800k & then the 400k (800 to 400 end of Q1 next year) towards some outstanding B2L mortgage. 

10 minutes ago, flexomike said:

You only have to have the 800,000 in the bank two months before applying for an extension, some offices require three months, also has to stay in your account for three months after the extension, the you can take it down to 400.000 up until the 2-3 months before your extension, answer yes you can take out anything over the 800,000 at any time you want, caution don't get too close to the 800,000 in case there are any bank charges

Thanks for your reply - much appreciated. I will transfer the funds above 800k and leave a small buffer to cover any unexpected bank charges etc.

If I move to the monthly 65k+ transfers, can I reduce the Minimum Balance to 400k throughout the year? This was my understanding - I planned on doing this after the 1st Renewal end of Q1 2023. I also want to move the funds from the Savings Account to a Fixed Account which has a slightly higher Interest Rate.