Morch

Firing missiles into schools, hospitals and UN buildings.

Cutting off water supplies and electricity.

Murdering women and children.

 

Israel is a rogue state that causes the most instability and threatens world peace with alarming regularity.  Something needs to be done to stop Israel.

Define "threatening world peace". How many countries are actually involved in the fighting or effected by them?
 

And a decent civilised country would never bomb and slaughter innocent civilians in a collective punishment.

USA did it.

UK did it.

Russia did it.

Just a few examples, probably can come up with more.

Does this mean they are denied decent-civilized status by you?
 

Most ordinary people , apart from the die hard Israeli supporters, are at a loss as to how a supposed civilized democratic country can overwhelmingly support this slaughter on innocent woman and children.

 

I can no longer have rational conversations with my closest Israeli friends, who are for the most part secular , left wing and used to hate Netanyahu.What is going on?

 

This report which in no way answers that question, but it does say something about the way things have changed in Israel.The term anti Semite is used to too liberally against the people who criticize the Israeli governments actions, but it seems that racist hatred is as common within Israel especially amongst the young, and that obviously includes many conscripted IDF soldiers,  and this can only help to fuel the fire that they see the Palestinians as lesser human beings.

 

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/israeli-racism-gaza-kleinfeld-511

That is not bad article actually. Touches on many issues which are real and true.

There is definitely a change on this front, or if one wishes to term it differently, an increase of the same old.

A lot of it can be attributed to right wing politicians - which came first, the radicalization of the public or radicalization

of the right wing politicians may be an open question.

While there is no denying that many of the descriptions and thoughts expressed conform to reality, there are some

points which are left unaddressed. Laying it all on right wing politicians or saying the Zionism is the root of it, tempting

as it is, assumes that Israeli Jews opinions are formed in a vacuum, rather than influenced and shaped in the context

of underlying existing conditions. Before I go any further with this, let me assure you that I'm pretty sure I'd be clubbed

by some of the mobs described for some of the things I posted here...so, not condoning or justifying any of it.

Israel does not have a democratic system to rival Western nations. Period. Is it more democratic than its neighbors?

Yes, absolutely. The gap between these two assertions is responsible for a lot of confusion and muddled debate, much

in evidence on TVF and elsewhere. Comes down to which standard is used to "judge" Israel (and my impression is that

this would usually be exactly the full blown democratic systems of Western nations), and/or to which standard is claimed

(or aspired to) by Israel.

My personal view is that things are not black and white, and that there are different levels of democracy displayed by

nations (sometimes even variants of the same on different issues). Considering that most Western nations do not face

the same level of challenges to their democratic systems - setting the bar too high may be disingenuous. Israel is not

Norway. On the other hand, Israeli claims to be on the forefront of democracy quite obviously do not quite measure up

to reality, and do not go down well when combined with setting the bar too low (as in comparing Israel with obviously

non-democratic, or lower level democratic systems).

Another issue with the article is that it totally ignores the effect ongoing terrorism (and this is a good example of just how

terrorism is effective in shaping public sentiment even without a huge casualty list), and the current actions taken by Arab

Israelis. There wasn't a whole lot of coverage of this, as events in Gaza Strip quickly overtook media attention - but there

were riots going on in quite a few places all over Israel, which were certainly tied to the recent surge of hatred expressed

on social networks (again, a bit of chicken and egg thing). For a lot of Israelis this sort of thing raises fears of an "enemy

within" (which it turn is exploited by politicians).

Overall, the article presents a rather one-sided view (albeit, admittedly doing a decent job of it, many things spot on), with

all of the people interviewed can safely be said to be holding left and even far-left views. Not much of an attempt at a

balanced presentation, as such. Then again, considering the atmosphere, might not be the easiest piece to research and

publish. Several factual errors, and a few hyped out descriptions, but not to an extent which would discredit the whole

effort.

It could be further argued that the same, and more, are evident on the Palestinian (and especially relevant to the Hamas)

side, and that the article does not really covers this issue. Palestinian racism aside (plenty of that), this argument goes

back to the democratic/moral standard aspired to. I would say that constantly comparing Israel to Hamas detracts from

Israel's image, while on the other hand, totally ignoring this comparison amounts to a blinkered view.

 

 

If the Gazans shoot rockets on Israel because of occupation in West Bank, why doesnt the "west bankers" shoot rockets as well? are they inept?

 

Ever considered that only 11 percent of the West Bank is under full Palestinian control, but subject at any time to Israeli military incursions? 61 percent of West Bank under full Israeli military control? Perhaps right now there are not any rockets stored in relatively secure locations such as tunnels for deployment?

 

Well, this sort of reasoning may be counter-productive to the chances of getting Israel to withdraw from the West Bank...
 

 

 

 

 

Not quite. The blockade was a response to the rain of Qassam rocket fire and mortars, from Gaza into southern Israel. Hamas also announced they would refuse to honor past international agreements between the Palestinian government and Israel. That caused a number of countries to halt their aid and things went downhill after that. 

Remember, honesty is the best policy, although I do enjoy pointing out all the dishonest historical "mistakes" in your posts. 

 

 

As always UG, you try to muddy the waters dishonestly. It's the Israeli propaganda way.

 

When Israel withdrew from Gaza in September 2005 they maintained their occupation by blockading air, sea and land access. So not quite the “land for peace deal we tried once” that Israeli apologists often proffer as a red herring.

 

 It is estimated that between 7,000 and 9,000 Israeli artillery shells were fired into Gaza between September 2005 and June 2006, killing 80 Palestinians in 6 months, culminating in the June 9^th 2006 shelling of 9 civilians on a Gaza beach.

 

Try to stick to the facts more in your postings UG.

 

 

I actually think that most references were to Israel unilaterally withdrawing from the Gaza Strip.

Unilaterally, as in not through agreement, and hence no deal.

Talk about red herrings.
 

 

 

Nitpicking deflection.

 

I was pointing out the usual red herring cliche that Israeli apologists such as yourself often trot out when rationalizing your way out of trading land for peace in the West Bank by returning to the 67 borders.

 

"Look we tried this once in Gaza."

 

Israel only left Gaza because it was too costly for them in lives and $$ protecting 8,000 nutjob squatters.

 

Not nitpicking, getting facts accurately.

Israel traded land for peace with Egypt and so far it works out alright. This included taking off settlements and settlers.

I do not think that many claimed that the Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip was tied with any peace deal, although

there might have been some hope for things to settle down.

Sort of the same thing in southern Lebanon, Hezbollah first claimed it wanted Israel to get out of Lebanon, but kept the

good fight going after that end was achieved.
 

 

 

I think both sides have raised the ante so much that both sides need to be able to show something real on the ground for their efforts.

 

 Hamas: the release of Hamas prisoners imprisoned without charge a month ago, and the lifting of Gaza blockade so that people can lead normal lives. (both achievable with a penstroke)

 

Israel: guarantee that no more rockets will be fired (achievable through a truce), destruction of Hamas (not so achievable; possible to kill more Hamas militants  and leaders but probably at a more expensive loss of IDF lives, and especially with all the bitterness created, new ones would emerge..it’s very hard to extinguish an idea..only a just peace will achieve that, when one day future generations will read about this in their history books and wonder what the fighting was all about)

 

It’s up to the diplomats, especially USA since they have the most clout, to do some cajoling and horse-trading.

 

 

 

According to this cunning plan the Hamas gets two birds in hand, in exchange for a promise.
 

 

 

The desired end result is peace are we agreed. Got to be an element of trust...I'm sure Israel is capable of shuffling the cards.

 

If we are talking about broken  promises. Israel promised to release 100s of Palestinian prisoners in return for the release of the Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. They did but a month ago Israel promptly rearrested them all without charge and they are still being held hostage. So it's really a one for one deal     no blockade = no rockets.

 

Trust is earned, not given. Hamas has not shown itself to be very trustworthy (even during the last 24 hours).

I am sure Hamas feels the same about Israel. The point is that something for nothing is a no go.

Even discounting the release of the Hamas people, it is still something for nothing. Hamas gets a blockade lifted

while Israel gets a promise.
 

 

Dpizza wrote....The Palestinian nationality was invented to be used as a political weapon, and a propaganda tool against Israel.

There was no Palestinian state before the state of Israel. There was an area called Palestine, but it wasnt a country.

It was part of the British mandate and before that it was part of the Ottoman empire.

 

Palestinian people have been living in Palestine for millenia. They were mentioned by Greek historian Herodotus in the 5th century BC and the Romans named the area Syria Palaestina, later the Byzantine Palaestina Prima and the Umayyad and Abbasid province of Jund Filastin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

 

It goes back even further ...The term Peleset (transliterated from hieroglyphs as P-r-s-t) is found in numerous Egyptian documents referring to a neighboring people or land starting from c. 1150 BCE during the Twentieth Dynasty of Egypt. 

 

And don't dig up that hoax Joan Peters crap "From Time Immemorial"    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Time_Immemorial (well worth reading the wiki entry) thoroughly discredited by numerous scholars...Although the book initially received a warm reception from mainstream critics, it would later be described as a "fraud" and "forgery" by a number of scholars and historians following an in-depth investigation and refutation of the book's central claims by Norman Finkelstein...yes, and we know before you say it, Israeli apologists, ..Finkelstein, son of Holocaust survivors, is obviously a self loathing Jew.

 

And your scholarly opinion is that the present day Palestinians are the direct decedents of the original inhabitants? I think even Palestinians do not truly claim this, surnames would be too much of a giveaway.
 

 

 

 

 

Actually it is from a blog, by one guy.  If he had used a different title and skipped the last sentence, it would have been a really good article that would not have caused controversy.

 

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/yochanan-genocide-permissible.html

 

 

 

what I   don't understand is if what the Germans did to the 'Jewish People' was such an unforgivable crime, how is it when the very same same thing is being done right now the to the Palestinians it's justifiable because Jewish people have the right to exist???!!!

 

 

How is it the same?

And would you then, characterize any armed force in the world which causes civilian casualties as being the same as the

Nazis? Would make quite a long list, and Israel wouldn't even be at the forefront.

 

 

I think he is highlighting the general irony of the Jewish people who have been persecuted so much in history and ought to have some empathy, yet still doing similar (not the same) things to Palestinians... Lebensraum in West Bank for Zionist colonists, labelling Palestinians with distinctive ID cards and number plates and discriminatory laws about who they can marry, dehumanizing Palestinians as “collateral damage”  so it doesn’t feel so bad when you kill them.

 

Maybe its the abused child who abuses others syndrome, but I must admit I do find Israel’s over the top behavior difficult to comprehend in the historical context.

 

It just shows that no country or people has a premium on hatred and cruelty. It’s a thin veneer that separates the civilized and uncivilized.

 

I see.

So, Israel handing over all of the Sinai peninsula (which amounts to more land than the West Bank and Gaza combined,

is in line with expansion plans. Pulling out of the Gaza Strip - definitely a land grab. Giving the Palestinians control over

some of the West Bank - land grab and expansion. Perhaps Israel doesn't get the meaning of expansion.

Palestinians have distinctive IDs because they are not Israeli citizens. Arab Israelis carry Israeli IDs. Try again. The same

goes for vehicles.

The rules you refer to do not limit marriage rights, they limit immigration into Israel of Palestinian spouses of a certain age

group. Not quite the same thing. While I think this is pretty useless as laws go, the underlying interest is a security one, not

racist.

Most Israelis even use the term "collateral damage" that often, and when they do it is usually used in the context of material

damage. Sure there are examples to the contrary, but not really as common as it seems to be on English language media.

Any other fine similarities for the nonsense comparison?

 

 

 

 

 

Hamas stop firing rockets and Israel won't retaliate !

 

Yet the world's luvvies can't stop blaming the Israelis. You keep kicking a bigger boy, expect a beating in return !

 

You acknowledge that Israel is the "Bigger Boy". And you imply satisfaction at this "Bigger Boy" inflicting "a beating" on Hamas.  Most of the rest of the world (the "luvvies") has a more extensive vocabulary than you exhibit, and would refer to such as behaviour as bullying.

So, did you cheer on the bullies in the schoolyard as well when you were a child? Or is this a recent moral principle you have adopted to show your support for Netanyahu?

 

 

 

(COMMENTS EDITED TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR ANYONE BOTHERED TO READ).

 

However to answer your question YES I take great satisfaction that a country tired of having rockets launched at them has decided to take a direct route to stamp it out without the need to go through 500 various commitees/quangos to seek permission. Hamas are manipulative thugs - and thugs need taking out ! However their greatest weapon is the bleeding heart liberals who bizarrely see them as some oppressed little orphan !

 

 

Again for the hard of thinking - if Hamas stop firing rockets into Israel not a single rocket will go into Palestine. No rocket science or extensive vocabularies required !

 

 

 

Yes, and if monks stopped burning themselves to death, then China would not have to impose military rule on Tibetan civilians. Get your power relationships into perspective - you were the one gloating two moments ago about Israel the "Big Boy". Many people - and nations, and  international agencies -are far more are of the perfidy of Israel than they were two weeks ago.

And in further news today, we find that the World Health Organisation (WHO - an unaligned body in case you don't know) has reported that essential drugs in Gaza are at zero or near zero. This means drugs for mums and bubs, not wounded soldiers. Israel will not allow these drugs entry into Gaza during the "lulls". In fact, they have destroyed 23 medical facilities that were involved in providing care to civilians. More reasons to launch an inquiry into Crimes Against Humanity  - with or without Israeli participation. So much for the Big Boy.

 

 

Right....

 

Latest Dubai Airlift carries medical supplies to Gaza

 

The airlift of emergency aid to the displaced and injured in Gaza ordered by Vice President and Prime Minister and Ruler of Dubai, His Highness Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum, entered its fifth day yesterday as a Boeing 747 and two C130s rushed 22 tons of medical supplies for the World Health Organisation, and 35,000 blankets for UNWRA to Amman for onward shipment by truck into Gaza.

http://www.uaeinteract.com/docs/Latest-Dubai-Airlift-carries-medical-supplies-to-Gaza/62951.htm
 

 

Turkey delivers medical aid to Gaza amid shortage of supplies

 

Three Turkish shipments of supplies – which include antibiotics and surgery requirements - enter Gaza through Karam Abu Salem crossing

GAZA CITY - The Turkish Red Crescent on Tuesday delivered three shipments of medical supplies to the Gaza Strip, which has been suffering incessant Israeli attacks since July 7.

 

When they reached Gaza, the three shipments were received by the Palestinian Red Crescent.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkey-delivers-medical-aid-gaza-amid-shortage-supplies-1945379490

 

Yes Israel faces the long term problem of Palestinians (and others) never accepting their right to even EXIST on ANY land in that region ... but for now it's more about shorter term problems ... such as the tunnels going into Israel. 

Indeed. I wonder whether Obama or Kerry would tolerate constant missile fire from Mexico with a network of tunnels running under the border facilitating kidnapping and terrorist attacks. No guarantee from the current U.S administration and certainly none from the U.N will suffice so Israel needs to get on and finish the job.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

 

Not sure if it's tolerated, but it's there:

 

Two drug tunnels, with rail systems, found at U.S.-Mexico border

(Reuters) - U.S. federal agents have uncovered two drug-smuggling tunnels underneath the U.S.-Mexico border, both surfacing in San Diego-area warehouses and equipped with rail systems for moving contraband, officials said on Friday.

 

The discovery led to the arrest of a 73-year-old woman accused of running one of the warehouses connected to a drug smuggling operation, according to a joint news release by four federal agencies.

 

The tunnels were discovered as part of a five-month investigation by the so-called San Diego Tunnel Task Force.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/04/us-usa-mexico-drugtunnel-idUSBREA331DG20140404

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KakxXN5Z-XI[/media]

For those interested in further reading, his autobiography is Son of Hamas.

There is also a documentary film based on the book - The Green Prince (I seem to recall there was a feature film in

the works as well).

 

 

Do you understand yet ?

Nope. You are trying to justify the atrocities of Hamas - a terrorist group that purposely targets civilians. Sounds like spin.

 

 

Hamas is a democratically elected organization that is resisting occupation and collective punishment , and is trying to end the blockade - sorry Ulysses, your propaganda will be countered and corrected every time you mislead.

 

Other propaganda terms are "anti semite, human shields, terrorist, international community".

I invite readers to add to this list of Zionist double speak, and call it out ass soon as these tactics are employed

This way, the focus can be kept on the issue, not the labels

 

Hamas democratically got rid of the opposition, and does not follow most democratic traditions and niceties.

Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip before Hamas was elected, how does Hamas resist occupation, then?

The blockade on the Gaza Strip is not unrelated to Hamas's actions and Hamas repeatedly rejected option

which could have alleviated some of the hardship for civilians (cargo inspections, monitoring of dual use

materials, PA officials involvement). 

Conveniently forgot the destruction of Israel on the Hamas things-to-do-list.
 

 

Why is it so hard for them to lift the blockade?

 

 How is preventing fishing in Gaza necessary for Israeli security? How is preventing items like cilantro, sage, jam, chocolate, french fries, dried fruit, fabrics, notebooks empty flowerpots and toys from entering Gaza, while allowing cinnamon, plastic buckets and combs necessary for Israeli security?

Israeli blockade of Gaza targets civilian population and not fighters

 

Because if they lift the blockade they will bring about peace. And that is not what Israel wants or is it in their "best interest". They use conflict as a smoke screen to expand their borders and conduct land grabs from the Arabs.

 

Peace? When did Hamas ever say anything about peace? The best they offer is a truce, a ceasefire, and that too under duress. Last time that blockade was eased it was used for prompt influx of weapons into the Gaza Strip and bringing over huge amounts of cement - used mainly for non-civilan projects. Hamas routinely rejects inspection of goods before their delivery and monitoring of dual use materials in the Gaza Strip.

How is Israel expanding its borders as a result of applying the blockade? How is the blockade manifested in land grabs?
 

I think both sides have raised the ante so much that both sides need to be able to show something real on the ground for their efforts.

 

 Hamas: the release of Hamas prisoners imprisoned without charge a month ago, and the lifting of Gaza blockade so that people can lead normal lives. (both achievable with a penstroke)

 

Israel: guarantee that no more rockets will be fired (achievable through a truce), destruction of Hamas (not so achievable; possible to kill more Hamas militants  and leaders but probably at a more expensive loss of IDF lives, and especially with all the bitterness created, new ones would emerge..it’s very hard to extinguish an idea..only a just peace will achieve that, when one day future generations will read about this in their history books and wonder what the fighting was all about)

 

It’s up to the diplomats, especially USA since they have the most clout, to do some cajoling and horse-trading.

 

 

According to this cunning plan the Hamas gets two birds in hand, in exchange for a promise.
 

 

 

Israel withdrew in 2005. They imposed the blockade a year later in 2006 as collective punishment for Palestinians voting for Hamas.

Not quite. The blockade was a response to the rain of Qassam rocket fire and mortars, from Gaza into southern Israel. Hamas also announced they would refuse to honor past international agreements between the Palestinian government and Israel. That caused a number of countries to halt their aid and things went downhill after that. 

Remember, honesty is the best policy, although I do enjoy pointing out all the dishonest historical "mistakes" in your posts. 

 

 

As always UG, you try to muddy the waters dishonestly. It's the Israeli propaganda way.

 

When Israel withdrew from Gaza in September 2005 they maintained their occupation by blockading air, sea and land access. So not quite the “land for peace deal we tried once” that Israeli apologists often proffer as a red herring.

 

 It is estimated that between 7,000 and 9,000 Israeli artillery shells were fired into Gaza between September 2005 and June 2006, killing 80 Palestinians in 6 months, culminating in the June 9^th 2006 shelling of 9 civilians on a Gaza beach.

 

Try to stick to the facts more in your postings UG.

 

I actually think that most references were to Israel unilaterally withdrawing from the Gaza Strip.

Unilaterally, as in not through agreement, and hence no deal.

Talk about red herrings.
 

 

 

 

In 1971 I travelled as a student through Israel and the West bank: an open border was between the Kingdom of Siam and the Kingdom of Lanna: students from all the world, inclusive Palestines: all young persons of the World.
The years later terrorist attacks, rockets, grenades from the Palestines towards the Israëli's In their manifest ( constitution): Israel must be wiped away, the jews driven into the see.
I wonder what would have been the attitude of the USA if Mexico, would behave like that, or on daily bases rockets were lunched from Laos to Nong Kai.
Even the Israelis do their utmost to protect also Palestinian civilians see the statement of a British general at the UN see -, sorry, but 100% protection is impossible, especially when rockets are stored in schools, hospitals etc, see UNWRA school even. And you think, this is the only case ? ?
All recourses in Gaza are used for the military and NOT for schools, water supply, electricity etc as.. why should they, US and EU taxpayers money supports that already since 1948

Why do people bring up that pathetic excuse about what would the US do if Mexico or Canada was rocketing them? Fact is, the US hasn't occupied Mexico or Canada since 1948 and driven most of the population into exile. The Canadian and Mexican population aren't mainly refugees in crowded camps. They have no reason to rocket the US.

The reason for the rockets is the illegal occupation and the collective punishment of people that weren't even born in 1948.

Burning israeli flags on the streets of European cities and applauding crowds show that while israel might win the war, it is losing the battle for public support throughout the world.

Sew the wind, reap the whirlwind.

<see the statement of a British general at the UN >
Who would believe any western establishment figure, ESPECIALLY at the UN? They are all pro israeli.

 

Its not pathetic and its not an excuse!
America did took over Texas and California from Mexico as a result of war, learn some history...
 
But thats beside the point:
The point is that people trying to explain to you the ridiculous situation Israel finds itself.
 
Israel didnt cause the refugees problem, on the contrary, it is one of the few countries who helped to solve it.
If Israel wanted to expel all non Jewish from Israel, how can you explain that 21% of Israeli citizens are Arab, Druze, Cherks, Bahais, Samaritans, Beduin esc...
Did you even heard of those minorities? i bet you havent got the slightest clue...
They enjoy full rights, serve in Israeli Army, and enjoy social services, while minorities in Egypt, Gaza, Syria and in many other Muslim countries are almost extinct!
 
 
If the reason for rocket is illegal occupation, how can you explain that in Gaza there are no Israel settlements, but in West Bank, there are many settlements but not even a single rocket fired, huh?
 
The Jews were never popular to say the least with you Europeans...Maybe they wont win the popularity contest, but they sure going to win the survival contest, and thats much more then what they could do when they didnt had a country, and you Europeans exterminated 6 millions of them in WW2...
Can you remind me BTW how many buses bombing, rockets firing, kidnappings, raping, murdering did the Jews did towards the Germans?
 
So dont you tell me the Jews doing to the Pali what the Nazis did to them!

 

<how can you explain that in Gaza there are no Israel settlements>
Erm. When israel was forced to evacuate Gaza by Gazan resistance, they had to dismantle all the israeli settlements when they left. You do know that israel used to occupy Gaza, don't you?


<but in West Bank, there are many settlements but not even a single rocket fired, huh?>
You do realise that the west bank is still occupied by israel, don't you? It would be very difficult to smuggle in rockets, let alone fire them. There are no smuggling tunnels to Egypt or Jordan.

<you Europeans exterminated 6 millions of them in WW2...>
I didn't realise that Ireland, Britain, Holland, Spain, Occupied France, Belgium etc were involved in exterminating anyone during WW2.

<America did took over Texas and California from Mexico as a result of war, learn some history...>
You forgot about the Phillipines, American Samoa and Hawaii.
All colonial powers "took over" other lands. It was what they did back then. I don't see the relevance to today.

 

By your logic, if occupation is the only things that keeps rockets from raining down on Israel, there's less incentive for

Israel to clear out of the West Bank.
 

 

 

In 1971 I travelled as a student through Israel and the West bank: an open border was between the Kingdom of Siam and the Kingdom of Lanna: students from all the world, inclusive Palestines: all young persons of the World.
The years later terrorist attacks, rockets, grenades from the Palestines towards the Israëli's In their manifest ( constitution): Israel must be wiped away, the jews driven into the see.
I wonder what would have been the attitude of the USA if Mexico, would behave like that, or on daily bases rockets were lunched from Laos to Nong Kai.
Even the Israelis do their utmost to protect also Palestinian civilians see the statement of a British general at the UN see  -, sorry, but 100% protection is impossible, especially when rockets are stored in schools, hospitals etc, see UNWRA school even. And you think, this is the only case ? ?
All recourses in Gaza are used for the military and NOT for schools, water supply, electricity etc as.. why should they, US and EU taxpayers money supports that already since 1948

Why do people bring up that pathetic excuse about what would the US do if Mexico or Canada was rocketing them? Fact is, the US hasn't occupied Mexico or Canada since 1948 and driven most of the population into exile. The Canadian and Mexican population aren't mainly refugees in crowded camps. They have no reason to rocket the US.

The reason for the rockets is the illegal occupation and the collective punishment of people that weren't even born in 1948.

Burning israeli flags on the streets of European cities and applauding crowds show that while israel might win the war, it is losing the battle for public support throughout the world.

Sew the wind, reap the whirlwind.

<see the statement of a British general at the UN >
Who would believe any western establishment figure, ESPECIALLY at the UN? They are all pro israeli.

 

Its not pathetic and its not an excuse!

America did took over Texas and California from Mexico as a result of war, learn some history...

 

But thats beside the point:

The point is that people trying to explain to you the ridiculous situation Israel finds itself.

 

Israel didnt cause the refugees problem, on the contrary, it is one of the few countries who helped to solve it.

If Israel wanted to expel all non Jewish from Israel, how can you explain that 21% of Israeli citizens are Arab, Druze, Cherks, Bahais, Samaritans, Beduin esc...

Did you even heard of those minorities? i bet you havent got the slightest clue...

They enjoy full rights, serve in Israeli Army, and enjoy social services, while minorities in Egypt, Gaza, Syria and in many other Muslim countries are almost extinct!

 

If the reason for rocket is illegal occupation, how can you explain that in Gaza there are no Israel settlements, but in West Bank, there are many settlements but not even a single rocket fired, huh?

 

The Jews were never popular to say the least with you Europeans...Maybe they wont win the popularity contest, but they sure going to win the survival contest, and thats much more then what they could do when they didnt had a country, and you Europeans exterminated 6 millions of them in WW2...

Can you remind me BTW how many buses bombing, rockets firing, kidnappings, raping, murdering did the Jews did towards the Germans?

 

So dont you tell me the Jews doing to the Pali what the Nazis did to them!

 

How did Israel help solve the Palestinian refugee problem?

The clip linked presents part of the story. There were more than one reasons that led to many of the Palestinians ending up as refugees, not all of them due to the actions of the Arab leadership. There is quite formidable evidence that the fledgling IDF contributed to this as well. Saying that Israel did not cause the refugee problem is inaccurate, but so is saying that Israel is solely responsible for it.

As far as I am aware Bahais and Samaritans do not serve in the IDF, other minorities mentioned may opt to serve, not compelled to. Full rights and social services, yes, although many issues with these as well. But probably still a better state than most places in the Middle East.

 

Anyone who talks about "ethnic cleansing" in relation to the Palestinians is either stupid or a liar. They would be long gone, if Israel wanted it so. Brian Eno turned out some decent music long ago, but he seems to be very ignorant when it comes to the conflict in Gaza. 

 

 

Following this twisted and inhumane logic, there was no ethnic cleansing of the Jews, and no Holocaust, because the world still has a viable number of Jews.  

 

 

Its part of the standard Misinformation Package that Zionist Apologists are trained to regurgitate. 

 

No. That's your own faulty logic. By your logic, any warfare situation in which civilians are killed constitutes ethnic cleansing.

May I suggest that numbers do play a part when trying to determine if what is talked about amounts to ethnic cleansing, and

that so far, while the casualty toll on the Palestinian side is heavy, it does not amount to ethnic cleansing.

About the same amount of casualties occurred in Syria, in a much shorter time span, just recently. Does this mean there is

an ethnic cleansing going on in Syria? And if so, why is the world silent on this?

The Egyptian army put down riots related to the recent coup and killed a total of about 1400 civilians, similar time frame. An

ethnic cleansing as well?

Saying that what happens in Gaza, horrible as it is, does not amount to ethnic cleansing is not the same as denying it.
 

 

 

 

 

Excellent letter...a "must read" for anyone who wants to know the conditions under which Palestinians exist in Gaza and the West Bank.

 

 

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/28/gazas-millionaires-and-billionaires-how-hamass-leaders-got-rich-quick/

 

It seems that Hamas are responsible for the poverty!

 

 

What incredible chutzpah... Israel controls all the land, sea, and air routes into Gaza under an illegal blockade stifling all economic growth, and periodically bombs the Gazans into further poverty as collective punishment. Then spins the blame onto the victims.

 

And Egypt, keep forgetting Egypt there.

Also keep forgetting Hamas would not accept inspection and controls over materials transferred.

And some memory loss when it comes to the lavish life style of some Hamas leaders abroad, and the way Hamas

leaders in Gaza Strip got rich quite quickly. They are also not beyond sending family members for medical treatment

in Israeli hospitals, but guess that's all for the good cause.
 

 

 

Nothing short of a 200km high curtain which penetrates deep into the earth is going to stop this fighting.

As a person with absolutely NO AGENDA here, I can say this is purely gut wrenching to watch.

I'd like to take leaders in from all sides and force them to negotiate a peaceful solution, at this rate, the future is looking very bleek indeed.

The answers are not clear despite all the knowitall arguments on this forum.

For the most part, I get where you're coming from. This is as bad as it's been in this conflict in a long time. I also think there is a general consensus on BOTH sides that a two state solution will NEVER happen, too late for that, so that leaves the question ... how to solve this at all without endless bloodshed and nobody knows. 

 

 

Maybe time to listen to the silent majority on both sides rather than the loud fanatics

 

A US State Department poll suggests that 78 percent of Palestinians and 74 percent of Israelis believe a peace agreement that leads to both states living side by side as good neighbors is “essential or desirable”

 

http://www.america.gov/st/mena-english/2009/July/200907021105032SAdemahoM0.6612164.html

 

Link does not lead to a specific article but to a directory, at least for me.

What silent majority would that be? The coalition in Israel is made of right wing and center parties (the latter indeed silent

these days), the Palestinian side is split in two and did not have a proper elections in quite some time. The last time it did

the results were not supportive of the figured quoted.

Israel has inflicted a series of disproportionate attacks on a besieged ghetto with way too many victims .
What would happen if the number of deaths were switched?

And still no answer as to what would constitute a proportionate military response.

If casualty toll would be reversed, some posters here would be quick to explain that it is indeed awful, but really

Israel's fault for all the bad things they did to the Palestinians over the years. Someone would add "som nam na"

to his post. 

 

 

 

These Israeli actions are a disgrace to the human race. And those that support these actions are also a disgrace. For such a "developed country" they sure do act like a pack of backward pack animals. All prayers to the deceased in these attacks and to the oppressed Palestinians.

..better be a 'disgrace' than dead.

Indeed. It is also very revealing how sundry one issue activists are frothing at the mouth with carefully choreographed outrage yet were completely absent as 200,000 were killed in Syria, tens of thousands were murdered by jihadis in Nigeria, over a million in North Sudan and ISIS slaughters Christians in Iraq whilst carrying out compulsory FGM on the women there.

But no an apparent stray Israeli shell fired at terrorists using UN facilities as a human shield is far more important in the grand scheme of things.


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Civil war vs oppression. Two totally different beasts.

 

Interesting. I was under the impression many here (and you as well, unless much mistaken) believed the Syrian crisis to

be instigated and fueled by foreign powers and foreign militants. And just to get this straight, when Assad massacres his

people that's alright because it is, apparently, a domestic issue? Seriously? How is that not "oppression"?