Morch

 

 

 

Which ever side your on does not matter, at the moment there is a wholesale slaughter of innocents in Gazza, who have nothing to do with the rockets being fired, or can do anything to stop them

Look at the pictures of dead innocent women and children on tv and in the newspapers and tell me that is fair in a modern world.

 

The Turkish Prime Minister made some interesting comments yesterday.

 

 

 

Of course it's not 'fair' it's not a game, but a struggle for Israeli survival since the country was founded against constant attacks and several times all out war against it by Arab armies. This has been rocket attacks by Hamas who then when Israel defends itself starts to cry out casualties and international law, well they should have thought of this before they started it. Hamas would be very disappointed if there had been no civilian casualties to parade before the cameras, they love playing the victim card. Israel, keep calm and carry on!

 

 

I'm curious, in your view Jacky what would it take for Operation Protective Edge to cross the line from "defensive" to "offensive"?

 

i think its a legitimate question

 

It is not only legitimate, but a good question.  Sadly, ran out of likes.

Not sure that I have a good answer for it, though. And furthermore, not sure that the distinction is very clear cut or of high importance by itself, apart from a legal point of view. Probably something that needs more thinking about with more caffeine in the blood stream as well. Guess it would be easier for posters to contribute to this one when things chill down some.
 

 

 

 

Anyone marching to protest against terrorist scum indiscriminately firing missiles into civilian areas in Israel?

 
 
Civilian areas? Open fields are Civilian areas? Enough with the spin...
 
Have a look here Mr. Spunk. 
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2014

Just because their aim is crap doesn't mean the intent is any less barbaric. Terrorist scum is what they are.

No spin required and I regard Wikipedia as a joke, not a source of solid information.

The pause is after the s. Still when your point is so weak you resort to abuse and wikipedia why should I worry.

 

 

Israel deliberately fires sophisticated powerful weapons directly at apartment blocks which they know will kill hundreds of innocent children.

 

Now that is definitely a war crime.

 

Do you have ANY clear support for the above claim? That basically Israel targeted hundreds of children? Mind, I'm not

talking about casualty figures, but specifically about the claim that it was intentional.
 

 

 

 
No I said Wikipedia is the joke. Full of misinformation.

However does it or any of those sources mention hamas arresting the scum who murdered those three teenagers? I know the Israel authorities arrested/detained the scum who murdered the Palestinian boy.
 

 
Hamas is in no position to arrest them, relevant security forces in the area are either Israeli or PA.
The kidnapping and murder took place in the West Bank, while Hamas controls the Gaza Strip.
 

Did the scum responsible not crawl back to hamas controlled territory? They have been identified. Granted they may be innocent but should be questioned.

 

Not very likely, as covered extensively in one of the earlier topics.  They would have to flee undetected though the West Bank, cross the security barrier, travel across Israel to the Gaza security barrier, and somehow pass that. All of the above with a lot of troops and police on alert. If they do manage to pull this one, the implications would be far worse than the kidnapping and killing of the three Israelis.
 

 

 

 

 

 
 According to Palestinian sources. Would they ever lie? 
 
This is almost certainly false, as a look at the numbers by CAMERA shows. The Gaza population has the predictable demographic qualities: half men and half women, many children, etc. If 77% of the casualties were civilians, we would see that reflected in the figures. If there is a huge over-representation of males of combat age in the casualty figures, it’s fair to assume that’s because Israel is targeting and hitting combatants. And so it is: 
http://blogs.cfr.org/abrams/2014/07/16/casualties-in-gaza/

 

 
UG, you criticize numbers used by the NY Times, the UN, and most mainstream news outlets, because you say they are "Palestinian Sources"

 

I said that they come from Palestinian sources, which is the same thing that Abrams says and Morch for that matter. Just who do you think these very questionable statistics are coming from in the middle of an active war zone that has been in turmoil since this started a few weeks ago? It is only common sense.  

 

 

The fact is the world's major news sources seem to have enough trust in the numbers to use them.

 

So, if we must throw away reports from the NYT, Guardian, UN, et al, because they are using sources you don't agree with, pray tell, which sources should we use?

 

(plz dont say IDF Blog)

 

Don't have to throw away anything. Just treat figures with a dose of doubt, and when possible track them down to the source.  Most of the figures in main steam media come from very few original sources, and most just keep on quoting each other, one way or another. The picture will be clearer when the fighting stops.
 

 

 

 

 

 

Free Hamas prisoners arrested for no reason a month ago ostensibly to help the search for 3 missing Israeli teenagers, who Israel knew were already dead within hours of the kidnap and they knew the 2 killers too..rogue members of a Hebron clan.

 

 

 Despite all the Israeli propaganda, spin and lies, that's the real reason this all kicked off.  Israel is killing as many people in Gaza as they can before this fact becomes common knowledge.

 

In my opinion, Israel has grossly overplayed its hand this time and they'll have to face the consequences. 

 

 

Is it propaganda that there were attacks from Gaza before that?

Is it propaganda that there were others issues (political and economic) driving the Hamas toward clashing with Israel?

Is it propaganda that the killers had Hamas affiliations?

 

Sure do seem to live in a simple world. Most complex events do not necessarily have a single reason, but an array of

factors and causes. I'm aware this is hard to grasp and often makes things a bit confusing but do make an effort to at

least read a bit before repeating the same old over and over again.
 

 

 

So Israel can murder 100s of innocents miles away in Gaza because 2 psychopaths acting independently murdered 3 Israelis in Hebron.

 

>>Most complex events do not necessarily have a single reason

..tell that to Netanyahu. 2 "suspects" still not arrested or  interrogated = whole of Hamas leadership guilty, So lets bomb Gaza.

 

No need to be patronizing..on other forums that would count as a flame.

 

"So..." - I don't see that I claimed anything regarding justification or about Israel's right to do anything.

"tell that to..." - Not your messenger boy, not on speaking terms with Netanyahu. Was pointing out that

this is what you, and other posters seem to claim - that this event is the sole reason for this whole mess.

This is TVF - there's only one poster who can't be patronized and he usually hangs on the Thai News section.

 

 

 

 

 

Free Hamas prisoners arrested for no reason a month ago ostensibly to help the search for 3 missing Israeli teenagers, who Israel knew were already dead within hours of the kidnap and they knew the 2 killers too..rogue members of a Hebron clan.

 

 

 Despite all the Israeli propaganda, spin and lies, that's the real reason this all kicked off.  Israel is killing as many people in Gaza as they can before this fact becomes common knowledge.

 

In my opinion, Israel has grossly overplayed its hand this time and they'll have to face the consequences. 

 

 

Is it propaganda that there were attacks from Gaza before that?

Is it propaganda that there were others issues (political and economic) driving the Hamas toward clashing with Israel?

Is it propaganda that the killers had Hamas affiliations?

 

Sure do seem to live in a simple world. Most complex events do not necessarily have a single reason, but an array of

factors and causes. I'm aware this is hard to grasp and often makes things a bit confusing but do make an effort to at

least read a bit before repeating the same old over and over again.
 

 

 

I agree with all your points above, Morch. Those are indeed facts. 

 

Rockets have been fired from Gaza into Israel for years.

Gaza has been in an economic stranglehold for years (according to independent observers).

The killers had Hamas affiliations.

 

And this is a real question because I simply don't know this; has Israel proved that Hamas leaders knew/approved of the kidnapping beforehand? Or were these 3 members acting on their own?

 

There were attacks from Gaza on the same month and on the month before that. The understanding after the previous (2012) round of hostilities were that there wouldn't be any and that Hamas is to see to that. The time frame referenced is not years, in this instance.

Economic issues plaguing the Hamas are only partly to do with Israel and the blockade. What I was referring to, which was linked here and on other topics quite a few times, has to do with Hamas's inability to pay salaries to officials, and the PA's refusal to transfer the funds (or rather, pick up the tab) before resolving certain issues to do with reconciliation.  This in turn is concerned to various inter-Palestinian political issues and power struggles, but seems like anything that is not a short "Israel did it" does not apply.

There was no claim, to my knowledge, that Hamas leadership was directly involved in the kidnapping. Not saying that the claim could not have been made by someone, Israeli politicians are about about as good as Thais when presented with a microphone and airtime. The justification used was more along the lines that Hamas leaders continually incited members to execute kidnapping operations and praised the rewards brought about by such actions.

I think (and bear with me for not having a two liner explanation) what happened was that Netanyahu thought he'd get a few points with voters playing tough with a limited attack on Gaza, then killers would be underhanded and things going back to "normal". As often happens, didn't work out as planned - his right wing partners wanted more action, there was no obvious quick success on either front, and when Hamas really got into it (again, they have their own agenda) things escalated. Both sides playing it by ear and changing their reasoning as they go along. Same old.

That the killers are Hamas, yes, that's quite obvious. Rouge clan or not, it sounds like a bit of Thai lakorn when reading local news. Personally, I don't think that they got any orders as such, but were inspired to have a go. Motivations could be manifold, not venturing a guess on a single one.

 

 

 

They are militants. Just like Thailand, there is a lot of saving "face" going on. These are ignorant, arrogant, fanatical guys, who don't want to show any weakness and cater to the extremists among the population. 

 

Most of their leaders have been arrested, killed or have fled. So can you imagine who's left? They are more disorganized than ever and the only thing the separate factions know how to do is fire off useless rockets. Their demands aren't being met so they will continue.

here are their latest demands...as far as I am aware of..

 

"Hamas's demands include an end of the "war on the Gaza Strip," a complete lift of the siege on it, opening the Rafah crossing with Egypt, freedom of movement in the border areas, cancelling the buffer zone and expanding the freedom to fish 12 nautical miles from shore.

In addition, Hamas demands the release of its members who had been freed in a 2011 deal and recently re-arrested in an Israeli crackdown on the West Bank."

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/hamas-says-invited-for/1272936.html

 

 

Most of their leaders have not been arrested. Unless you are somehow mixing the Hamas operatives and leadership in

the West Bank with those in the Gaza Strip and abroad. Most of the leaders who matter are were not in the West Bank.

 

The Hamas is anything but disorganized, from a military point of view. The fact that they do not crumble, continue to both

launch rockets and execute operation withing the Gaza Strip and Israel seem to attest for this. As for the "various factions",

not quite sure what that means - Hamas's military wing is still coordinated, there are other independent  organizations, not

necessarily under the Hamas's control, though.

 

The demands are intentionally high as they are not quite ready to call it quits yet and they serve as a starting bargaining

position. Pretty much the same demands before any ceasefire talks. They are less forthcoming when it comes to what they

will give in return or which assurances they will give to carry out their part.

 

 

I'm sorry I was assuming that among the nearly 3,000 attacks Israel has conducted thus far in the current operation (according to Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon), the several hundred or so "core" Hamas members would have been in shambles. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas)

 

Unless of course the 3,000 attacks have been hitting the wrong targets....no no thats unthinkable.

 

Israel did not start the ground move until very recently, so obviously no mass arrests in the Gaza Strip before that.

As the escalation in hostilities was not sharp (in the sense of full blown military operation and air raids) but gradual,

many of the Hamas leaders did manage to get underground, and into relative safety. Some were indeed killed by

air raids, but not as to cause the Hamas to be disorganized the way you described.

There were Hamas members killed, yes. Not sure how the figured stand currently and whether they are all that reliable.

Those would not all be leaders, but mostly rank and file. A lot of the attacks were not specifically aimed at killing Hamas

people but directed at facilities and weapons.

There's quite enough information to use when bashing Israel, don't see the need to bother with dreaming up stuff.

 

 

Ulysses G, justify this then!
Can't wait for your response, you'll blame anyone BUT the real culprits!



http://m.theage.com.au/world/palestinian-boy-clings-to-paramedic--story-behind-the-viral-photo-20140721-zv5n1.html

 

Truly a war crime.

 

 

Palestinian leadership needs to submit its application for membership in the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court immediately.

 

Israel must be brought to justice for its crimes.

 

And which Palestinian leadership would that be?  The Hamas's? The PA's?
 

 

 

 

Free Hamas prisoners arrested for no reason a month ago ostensibly to help the search for 3 missing Israeli teenagers, who Israel knew were already dead within hours of the kidnap and they knew the 2 killers too..rogue members of a Hebron clan.

 

 

 Despite all the Israeli propaganda, spin and lies, that's the real reason this all kicked off.  Israel is killing as many people in Gaza as they can before this fact becomes common knowledge.

 

In my opinion, Israel has grossly overplayed its hand this time and they'll have to face the consequences. 

 

Is it propaganda that there were attacks from Gaza before that?

Is it propaganda that there were others issues (political and economic) driving the Hamas toward clashing with Israel?

Is it propaganda that the killers had Hamas affiliations?

Sure do seem to live in a simple world. Most complex events do not necessarily have a single reason, but an array of

factors and causes. I'm aware this is hard to grasp and often makes things a bit confusing but do make an effort to at

least read a bit before repeating the same old over and over again.
 

 

 

This is crazy.
 
Innocent people are dying and we have numerous posts across several threads discussing history an ancient holy books.

All Hamas has to do is stop firing rockets and Israel will stop trying to find them. That is the solution and it should happen right now.

 

 

Hamas has offered an indefinite truce many times, and Israel has always been the first to break it.

 

Part of the last truce was supposed to be lifting the blockade of Gaza...did Israel honor that? A big NO.

 

Free Hamas prisoners arrested for no reason a month ago ostensibly to help the search for 3 missing Israeli teenagers, who Israel knew were already dead within hours of the kidnap and they knew the 2 killers too..rogue members of a Hebron clan.

 

No.

Hamas did not offer this "many times". There were a few offers made over the years, usually when Hamas was at a low

point or hard pressed by Israel.

These offers were, for the most part, limited for 10 years (there is a religious explanation to this, but it is not germane to

the topic), although one was indeed indefinite (in the sense that Hamas could make it void whenever he felt like). All of

the truces offered were not meant to lead toward peace, or toward recognizing Israel, but more as breather until Hamas

could pick up the fight again. There were usually extra demands such as immediate retreat to the 1967 borders and an

acceptance of the Palestinian Right of Return.

Israel did not accept most of these truces, so not quite sure how it was "always" the first to break them. Not sure where

did you get the notion that Israel agreed to a complete lift of the blockade, pretty sure this is not quite accurate.

The rest is just the same old unrelated bit you add to every other post - I'll decline to comment again. my cut and paste

skills aren't as advanced, it would seem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The only thing that is wrong is that in June there were 2 rocket attacks before the campaign to "find" the kidnapped teens.

 

The rocket attacks didn't escalate until Israel began its insane campaign to find the kidnapped teens. Why insane? Because they arrested 400 Palestinians (really, 400 suspects?), raided thousands of Palestinian homes and killed 5 in the process of "searching for the teens". Insane because they likely already knew they were dead as they heard the teens get shot on the phone and found the kidnappers car the next day with the blood of the teens in it. Of course this was kept from the media in order to generate more bloodlust among the pro-Israel camp during the search.

 

Israel's attack on Hamas for the kidnapping, which is also crazy because they had no evidence that it was ordered or that the top members even knew about it, is what triggered the huge escalation in rocket attacks. Read it for yourself.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/10937514/Israel-hits-Gaza-with-air-strikes-after-bodies-of-kidnapped-teenagers-found.html

 

In May there were 4 rockets and 3 mortars launched. In June, there were 17 attacks.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2014

 

 

There were only a few rockets, so that's alright then. Scrap those ceasefire agreements from last time.

 

As much as I try, can't see what difference would it made for the search whether the information regarding the kindapped

being murdered released earlier. Israel traded bodies of its dead soldiers in exchange for terrorists, in the past. The three

Israelis, dead or alive, were just as likely to be traded. The arrests were massive, yes, Insane? That's a point of view, not

an objective statement. So is the assertion that the death were kept secret to "generate more bloodlust".

 

Posters who think this is the only, or even main, reason for the current conflagration should probably do some reading

about other issues that drove the Hamas into this situation, most of them to do with inter-Palestinian politics and a serious

economic crisis. Links to a couple of articles on this were posted in many of the relevant topics.
 

 

 

You don't see what difference it would make letting the public know that the odds are overwhelming that the 3 teens were dead the whole time?

 

It was the chance that they were still alive that provided some sort of "justification" for the raiding and ransacking of thousands of private homes during the search. You are telling me that police and investigators don't act differently if they know the victim has already perished?

 

I am not sure if the reason this was kept from the public (not very successfully it seems, many reporters knew and true rumors can now be traced back on social media), or if there were additional operational reasons. But I am pretty sure that the public outrage evident when they news were released (and its subsequent tragic murder of the Arab boy) would probably have been worse. This could have been, in all probability, also manifested during the search, perhaps making things worse than they were.
 

There was never such thing as " Palestinian "  entity, nation or country, EVER, those people that were

in the land of than called Palestine were nomads and migrant workers brought to this land to work,

by  people who built the country, there is no mention in the Quran of Jerusalem even once,

The Belfour proclamation of 1948 gave the Jews and Arabs their own land to live and proper

but the Arabs of than didn't like to share the land with any one and started a war of attrition that led

to the war of liberation in 1956, and since than, there war after war after war, until today..

The Balfour declaration was in 1917.

The UN partition plan was in 1947.

The Israeli deceleration of independence and war was in 1948.

In 1956 there was a war between Israel and Egypt, but nothing to do with liberation.
 

It is rather sad that those who claim they lost 6 million of their own in the last war seem totally oblivious to the fact that in many ways they are behaving in the same style as those they stillm accuse and have continued accusing of geonocide.

 

 Note that those of different  ethic persusions are and were included in that 6 million figure.

 

Hypocrisy is the word that springs to mind concerning Zionist  actions, note the word ''Zionist'' as opposed to Irsraeli's or Jews.

Most Jewish Israelis will define themselves as Zionists, although their definitions of what this means may greatly

defer. For example, voting for one of the pro-peace parties does not preclude someone from being defined as a

Zionist, and on the same note many of the IDF soldiers would not necessarily be right wing voters at all.

Sort of like asking Arab Israelis about being Palestinian.

Some distinctions are not exactly that clear when one gets a close up look.

 

 

You miss the point completely, but then, you don't want to get the point. Like all pro-Israelis you point blank refuse to see the immense inequity between the two sides, the huge difference in defence or attack capability, and the greatly disproportionate amount of damage/death inflicted in this tit-for-tat long-running conflict.

 

 

I totally agree with you on this point, which makes me wonder why Hamas continue day in day out to fire rockets indiscriminately into Israel, knowing that the end result can only have one possible outcome?

 

 

 

They are militants. Just like Thailand, there is a lot of saving "face" going on. These are ignorant, arrogant, fanatical guys, who don't want to show any weakness and cater to the extremists among the population. 

 

Most of their leaders have been arrested, killed or have fled. So can you imagine who's left? They are more disorganized than ever and the only thing the separate factions know how to do is fire off useless rockets. Their demands aren't being met so they will continue.

here are their latest demands...as far as I am aware of..

 

"Hamas's demands include an end of the "war on the Gaza Strip," a complete lift of the siege on it, opening the Rafah crossing with Egypt, freedom of movement in the border areas, cancelling the buffer zone and expanding the freedom to fish 12 nautical miles from shore.

In addition, Hamas demands the release of its members who had been freed in a 2011 deal and recently re-arrested in an Israeli crackdown on the West Bank."

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/hamas-says-invited-for/1272936.html

 

Most of their leaders have not been arrested. Unless you are somehow mixing the Hamas operatives and leadership in

the West Bank with those in the Gaza Strip and abroad. Most of the leaders who matter are were not in the West Bank.

The Hamas is anything but disorganized, from a military point of view. The fact that they do not crumble, continue to both

launch rockets and execute operation withing the Gaza Strip and Israel seem to attest for this. As for the "various factions",

not quite sure what that means - Hamas's military wing is still coordinated, there are other independent  organizations, not

necessarily under the Hamas's control, though.

The demands are intentionally high as they are not quite ready to call it quits yet and they serve as a starting bargaining

position. Pretty much the same demands before any ceasefire talks. They are less forthcoming when it comes to what they

will give in return or which assurances they will give to carry out their part.

 

 

Hamas didn't fire rockets (June 28) in the present round of violence until Israel had spent 2 weeks imprisoning 300 Hamas members, destroying Palestinian homes, and loosing air strikes on Gaza on the pretext of looking for 3 kidnapped Israeli teenagers, who they knew were already dead.(June 12)

Why do you insist on continually posting incorrect information, even though you are often caught? Rockets and mortars have been fired from Gaza throughout every single month of 2014 including all of June - starting on June 1. Hamas was shooting rockets at Israeli civilians both before the teenagers were murdered AND afterwards.

 

 

 

The only thing that is wrong is that in June there were 2 rocket attacks before the campaign to "find" the kidnapped teens.

 

The rocket attacks didn't escalate until Israel began its insane campaign to find the kidnapped teens. Why insane? Because they arrested 400 Palestinians (really, 400 suspects?), raided thousands of Palestinian homes and killed 5 in the process of "searching for the teens". Insane because they likely already knew they were dead as they heard the teens get shot on the phone and found the kidnappers car the next day with the blood of the teens in it. Of course this was kept from the media in order to generate more bloodlust among the pro-Israel camp during the search.

 

Israel's attack on Hamas for the kidnapping, which is also crazy because they had no evidence that it was ordered or that the top members even knew about it, is what triggered the huge escalation in rocket attacks. Read it for yourself.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/10937514/Israel-hits-Gaza-with-air-strikes-after-bodies-of-kidnapped-teenagers-found.html

 

In May there were 4 rockets and 3 mortars launched. In June, there were 17 attacks.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2014

 

There were only a few rockets, so that's alright then. Scrap those ceasefire agreements from last time.

As much as I try, can't see what difference would it made for the search whether the information regarding the kindapped

being murdered released earlier. Israel traded bodies of its dead soldiers in exchange for terrorists, in the past. The three

Israelis, dead or alive, were just as likely to be traded. The arrests were massive, yes, Insane? That's a point of view, not

an objective statement. So is the assertion that the death were kept secret to "generate more bloodlust".

Posters who think this is the only, or even main, reason for the current conflagration should probably do some reading

about other issues that drove the Hamas into this situation, most of them to do with inter-Palestinian politics and a serious

economic crisis. Links to a couple of articles on this were posted in many of the relevant topics.
 

 

The only peace worth having is a permanent just peace recognized by all sides.

 

All the Arab states have agreed to recognize Israel in return for a return to the 67 borders (with a few land swaps), a fudged deal over Jerusalem, and compensation for Palestinian refugees. 

 

Exchange of ambassadors, trade, tourism and probable membership of EU down the track just like Cyprus 90 miles off the coast...the works.

 

All too easy. The ball has always been in Israel's court.

 

The Hamas blatantly rejected both offers, carrying out a mass terror attack on the occasion of the first.

There no sweeping and formal announcement that the so-called Palestinian refugees Right of Return will be traded for

compensation. As far as I know there was also nothing to similar effect with regard to Jews who left their Arab homelands.

It was a missed opportunity for sure, though - even if the Palestinians weren't really able to pull it through on their side, and

even if Lebanon could not guarantee any agreement signed.

 

 

USG,

 

>> that want to wipe Israel off the map.

....Israel will wipe itself off the map when it absorbs all the Palestinians it is occupying. 

 

Something which Israel repeatedly said it will not do.

And if someone thinks this is a real possibility, then why bother with an armed struggle?

Better to make love, not war and tilt demographics further...
 

 

 

I think that is exactly what Abbas has in mind.

 

If Israel doesn't want to occupy Palestinians, why colonize the West Bank, making a 2 state solution nonviable. hence a one state solution.

 

Because there is no one coherent Israeli plan or view on how to solve issues with the Palestinians.  Because the whole illegal settlements effort sort of snowballed into what it is today, hardly a long term, well thought out and approved strategy.

As seen in the Gaza Strip and the Sinai peninsula, it is not beyond Israel to clear settlements and give back lands.

 

 

If I were in London, I'd be marching with them too, and I'm not a Muslim. Many Palestinians are Christians.

 

Less than 10% in the West Bank.

Less than 1% in the Gaza Strip.

 

If said demonstrations are indeed worldwide, I'm sure there's a venue near you.

Have fun marching, apply safety precautions when burning flag.

 

 

>>If said demonstrations are indeed worldwide

...they are indeed

Jewish doctor thrown off JetBlue flight after accusing Palestinian woman of having a bomb in her luggage during heated argument over Israeli military action in Gaza

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2698788/Jewish-doctor-thrown-JetBlue-flight-accusing-Palestinian-woman-having-bomb-luggage-heated-argument-Israeli-military-action-Gaza.html

 

Yeah, well...idiots are in short supply regardless of their political ideas.

March on.
 

 

No I said Wikipedia is the joke. Full of misinformation.

However does it or any of those sources mention hamas arresting the scum who murdered those three teenagers? I know the Israel authorities arrested/detained the scum who murdered the Palestinian boy.

 

Hamas is in no position to arrest them, relevant security forces in the area are either Israeli or PA.  The kidnapping and murder took place in the West Bank, while Hamas controls the Gaza Strip.
 

 

dont you all get tired of hashing it all out on the forum?

 

18 soldiers dead, includng my son's commander and including a friend of my daughter's boyfriend.

 

terrorists have tunnels built practically inside some villages on 'our' side, filled with weapons and including 'sleeping drugs' (anestesia of some sort) as part of a plan to plan another kidnapping or three.

today, during the two hour humanitarian 'truce' israel was sending medical aid and food over, the hamas continued to fire missiles.

when syrian rebels slaughtered villages of women and children, using chemical warfare and plain old weaponry, none any where in the west said a word. when  a paramedic on our kibbutz, (an 18 yr old girl soldier) was sent to a army field hospital, she was the one that treated syrian children who had been injured burnt or poisoned.

isreal doesnt want to take over gaza. noone in their right mind nowadays would take gaza; let the palestinians have it. its theirs, they can keep it. but someone should get the hamas mafia families living abroad that control the money and own the land , to invest in gaza, provide good hospitals instead of sending their cancer patients and children with terrible diseases to be treated in haifa/dana childrens' hospital, or toehr hospitals that treat gazaians, including several prominent hamasniks.

its too bad the a large percent of gazains are children between the ages of 0-15 as large families are promoted (as cannon fodder more or less) even though the families' ecomomic situation cant provide for them.

the people in gaza are several generations down the road from the original 'peace loving' poeople. their children are taught from kindergarten to hate. to hate, AND to sacrafice themselves for that hate. today, an 'old man' asked for help from a soldier, who came to help him, and it turned out to be an ambush.

 

 

So what your own Foreign Minister says about reoccupying Gaza...that's just a false statement right?

 

http://www.jpost.com/Defense/IAF-strikes-Gaza-after-rocket-fire-sets-Sderot-factory-ablaze-360868

 

That would require a short foray into Israeli right wing politics:

The Foreign Minister is the head of a rather large right wing party. Prior to the last election his party made a deal with the Prime Minister's party to run in tandem, as a joint list. This didn't work out too good for either in the polls, though.

The Foreign Minister was doing a lot of saber rattling since the association with the Prime Minister's party (also right wing but less hardliners) made him look soft, and looking bad for his voters. Things came to a head a couple of weeks ago when the Foreign Minister announced the partnership between the two parties void, only he stayed as a member of government and coalition "out of national responsibility".

I do not believe there was any non-extreme right wing politician or high rank army official who was in favor of this.  So, while not a false statement - this is more about how Israeli politics are played. Ministers often say whatever they suits their needs. Or as someone once put it - "Israel does not have a foreign policy, domestic political interests".

 

Anyone marching to protest against terrorist scum indiscriminately firing missiles into civilian areas in Israel?

 

 

Civilian areas? Open fields are Civilian areas? Enough with the spin...

 

Have a look here Mr. Spunk. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2014

 

Hamas does not aim at open fields. It aims at towns and villages. They even announce where they plan to launch next, on occasion. The open areas designations stands for anything from fields, roads, car parks etc...  Most of the rockets headed directly toward populated areas get intercepted by Iron Dome, but not all.

 

 

75% of the casualties in Gaza have been civilians. 

 

 According to Palestinian sources. Would they ever lie? 

 

This is almost certainly false, as a look at the numbers by CAMERA shows. The Gaza population has the predictable demographic qualities: half men and half women, many children, etc. If 77% of the casualties were civilians, we would see that reflected in the figures. If there is a huge over-representation of males of combat age in the casualty figures, it’s fair to assume that’s because Israel is targeting and hitting combatants. And so it is: 

http://blogs.cfr.org/abrams/2014/07/16/casualties-in-gaza/

 

 

UG, you criticize numbers used by the NY Times, the UN, and most mainstream news outlets, because you say they are "Palestinian Sources"

 

But then you post a link by Elliott Abrams. Who is Elliot Abrams?

 

I started to read his Wikipedia page..

"Abrams was born into a Jewish family in New York in 1948...."

 

"During this time, Abrams clashed regularly with church groups and human rights organizations, including Human Rights Watch.^[15][16] and Amnesty International, over the Reagan administration's foreign policies. They accused him of covering up atrocities committed by the military forces of US-backed governments, such as those in El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala, and the rebel Contras in Nicaragua."

 

Yeah he's much more credible.

 

Not disputing the Elliot Abrams bit, he's a player and a dodgy one at that.

As for figures used by NY TIMES, UN, and mainstream media outlets - well, a lot of them are basically the same figures, just rehashed over and over again. Most of the original data can be sourced to a UN agency report, which itself was based on figures reported by Hamas Ministry of Health and Palestinian NGOs in Gaza. The report itself was a bit more careful about it, but as often happens, this got cut out in editing in favor of "concrete" figures.

As previous experience shows, it is usually safer to exercise some caution when relying on casualty figured provided by interested parties, while events are still in motion. That is not to say that there are no civilian casualties or anything of the sort, just that repeating figures quoted in media is not always as accurate as people seem to think or as solidly based as we could wish.

 

Israelis gather on hillsides to watch and cheer as military drops bombs on Gaza

People drink, snack and pose for selfies against a background of explosions as Palestinian death toll mounts in ongoing offensive

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing

 

From the story, these guys are well within rocket range of Gaza. They do not seem to need shelter from the rain of rockets that are fired each day.

 

There goes your higher IQ theory....
 

 

 

Israelis gather on hillsides to watch and cheer as military drops bombs on Gaza

People drink, snack and pose for selfies against a background of explosions as Palestinian death toll mounts in ongoing offensive

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing

 

From the story, these guys are well within rocket range of Gaza. They do not seem to need shelter from the rain of rockets that are fired each day.

 

 

Did you hear what happened to CNN reporter who tweeted about these Israelis threatening to destroy her car if she says a word wrong? 

She called them scum and was subsequently removed...

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/18/cnn-diana-magnay-israel-gaza_n_5598866.html

 

Wonder if reporters often use this language on their tweets when covering the all too familiar displays of happiness when the Hamas scores points. Could be, just can't recall anything of the sort.

As for the article itself, the original piece popped up about a week ago (perhaps a bit more). Would be quite fitting if a rocket falls in the vicinity. They don't seem like the sharpest tools in the shed.