k1w1

Everyone knows he worked for the CIA anyway. Now they have Gaddafi and the Great African Adventure to keep the war machine alive. Osama has done his job and can be retired to the annals of history. Not a bad run for a cutout...

All the reds: time to shut up now you terrorists losers,

An attitude like that (on both sides) is what led to all this chaos in the first place. Good will towards the seemingly deafeated enemy is what we need. If the "winners" don't reach out to the "losers" right now and instead prefer to beat on the Reds while they are down, this circle of violence will soon start over. Jail all radical leaders, especially the ones now on the run, push ahead with the yellow's trials as well to signal people that double standards are no longer tolerated, involve the red leaders that have some sense in them in the reconciliation process and treat them as equals in as much as possible.

If even for the moderates the only choices are jail for life or taking the fight underground for Thaksin there wont be any progress. There has to be an open door for anyone (yellwo or red) who honestly wants to make a joined effort for Thailands future without stirring up hate.

That would be my recipe for Thailand's future. The time of the hardliners on both sides is over, unless we want to see this repeated very soon.

They know all this already. There is no interest in making this happen. It's a global issue not a localised Thai problem. They want the poor people to kill each other to cut down on the population. They want a reason to kill them too so they can justify a massive killing spree when it happens.

Utter garbage...you should seek medical help!

You can deny reality but that will not change the consequences of reality...

The world is on the brink of a resource crunch, global energy consumption is still rising while energy production is in decline due to peak oil and coal reserves being passed or in the process of being passed. Population in growing exponetially at a 7% which means that every 10 years we effectively double the worlds population. By 2020 there will be 12billion people in this world at the current rate of growth. That means that with energy resources in decline we will have to share the dwindling amount of energy with twice as many people as we do today.

If you do the math you will see the reality of the current situation.

The solution the heriditary elite are pushing for is population control. Cleary one child policy is failing as chinas population is still growing. India is growing even faster than china. Where are all these people going to live when they run out of resources in their home countries? The obvious answer is they will die or migrate across the porous borders.

At current rates of growth Thailand will have 120million citizens by 2020. Who's gonna feed them and give them work when there isn't enough to go around now?

Wakey wakey, dream time is over.

All the reds: time to shut up now you terrorists losers,

An attitude like that (on both sides) is what led to all this chaos in the first place. Good will towards the seemingly deafeated enemy is what we need. If the "winners" don't reach out to the "losers" right now and instead prefer to beat on the Reds while they are down, this circle of violence will soon start over. Jail all radical leaders, especially the ones now on the run, push ahead with the yellow's trials as well to signal people that double standards are no longer tolerated, involve the red leaders that have some sense in them in the reconciliation process and treat them as equals in as much as possible.

If even for the moderates the only choices are jail for life or taking the fight underground for Thaksin there wont be any progress. There has to be an open door for anyone (yellwo or red) who honestly wants to make a joined effort for Thailands future without stirring up hate.

That would be my recipe for Thailand's future. The time of the hardliners on both sides is over, unless we want to see this repeated very soon.

They know all this already. There is no interest in making this happen. It's a global issue not a localised Thai problem. They want the poor people to kill each other to cut down on the population. They want a reason to kill them too so they can justify a massive killing spree when it happens.

It ain't over till the fat lady sings !!!

There are a lot of very unhappy Thai people now.

I wonder what will happen next.

There will be a cooling down period with a fresh round of elections. Many politicians will subsequently be found to have bribed the voters and they will be disqualified. the voters will be angry and the govt will be protested against with mass protests and andother round of urban warfare. the next round will be even more violent after teh lessona learned from teh previous attempt and the companies that sell the weapons to both sides will be happy to sell even more powerful arms. there will be assasinations by unknown professionals on major military and political figures at key times to fuel the tension on both sides. The army will be forced to use it's weapons against it citizens to quell the domestic instability.

Major trades in the stock market will be transacted during the crisis to take advantage of the instable market.

A few people will make a substantial amount of money and a couple of weapons companies will do very well too.

Look to see where the Elite invest their money to find out which external forces are fueling the instability.

Rinse and repeat.

Much of this could have been avoided if there had been a designated protest site - a large field with basic facilities outside downtown Bangkok. That's what the Cambodians just arranged - for future protests in their country. Granted, it's easier said than done, but if the initial protesters had been funneled to a large field somewhere, then things would not have gotten so far out of hand.

Plus, recent reports of freezing accounts of many big businesses and big shot Thais associated with Thaksin and the Reds is BIG NEWS. You can bet there are a lot of big shots close to the Shinawats, who are cussing and shouting and banging furniture against walls.

Thaskin is definatly the cause and the financial organizer of this protest

Panic and chaos will allow him to return

But the question is

Is Thaskin the head of all of this

or just a puppet himself

There are many of my business friends who say he is but a puppet of The New World Order

and Thailand is a test site for bigger things to come

Why focus only on Thaksin in this line of argument? The entire ruling elite are responsible for the chaos and work together to keep it the status quo. They want the people to kill each other in a civil war to decrease the demand on resources. They are playing each others supporters against each other and outside influences are fuelling the unrest as much as they can to keep everything destabilised so that when the inevitable resource crunch happens due to exponential population increase countries like Thailand will descend into mass murder first and ease some of the pressure that the rest of the world is facing. The elites are aware of this problem and are actively engaged in the process to protect their power and resources while the poor rural underclass does the dying and killing. Just look at Rwanda or Haiti for an example of what they are trying to achieve.

If the people of South Asia do the dying and killing that just means there is a longer term availability of resources for the rest of the world to over consume. The greatest part about it is that it all happens far away from the cosy sheltered world that they live in and the bulk of the work to produce the consumables is done by the peasants who are doing the dying and killing too. It's a fool proof plan and quite cheap to manufacture and keep going. The under educated and desperate poor are always keen to air their grievances and exact some form of revenge against society for the injustices they face on a daily basis and more so if they are given the financial support and infrastructure to do so by people at the top like Thaksin.

Pojaman paid about 20% above the appraisal value for the land she purchased in Ratchada. But by repeating over and over again that she paid one third of the book-value, the public was convinced that Thaksin must have used his power to manipulate the deal. And with the help of a politicized court, it has now pretty much become reality.

I just found this article by TheNation:

http://nationmultimedia.com/2007/01/24/pol...cs_30024938.php

POJAMAN DEAL

Fund 'was not aware' it sold land plot for loss

Sale to former PM's wife was 'above the appraisal price'

The Financial Institutions Development Fund (FIDF), an arm of the Bank of Thailand, said it did not report its loss from a land sale on Ratchadaphisek Road in a report to the Assets Examination Committee (AEC) because the AEC subcommittee had not informed the fund about the amount of the loss.

Chanchai Boonritchaisri, a senior director of the central bank's Legal and Litigation Department, said the fund could not figure out whether it had suffered any loss from the sale, because it had sold the land plot at a price higher than the appraisal price. Hence, it could cite the damage figure in the report only when it was informed of the figure by the AEC.

"The FIDF could not see where the loss occurred, but I didn't say there was no loss," he said.

Chanchai said other organisations might calculate appraisal prices differently than did the fund. The committee could inform the fund which standard the price should be referred to.

"We're ready to follow the AEC, but the committee will have to prove the loss in the court, because the fund will only report facts. I do not know whether the court will agree with the committee," he said.

The fund sold the land plot located at Rama IX Road to deposed PM Thaksin Shinawatra's wife Pojaman for Bt772 million in 2003, higher than the appraisal price of about Bt700 million.

The AEC claims the fund lost money in the deal, because it had bought the land from Erawan Trust Finance and Securities for Bt2 billion in 1995.

An FIDF source said the fund had paid such a high price for the land plot so as to strengthen the company, which was facing liquidity problems. It was the cheapest way to keep the company afloat at the time. In addition, the market price at the time was high in keeping with a boom in the property sector.

Chanchai said the fund willingly gave a free hand to the AEC and would not give a dissenting opinion in order to avoid conflict.

On January 8, the AEC submitted its report to the Finance Ministry, which passed it on to the FIDF on January 10. The FIDF board convened on January 15 and sent back the report to file a complaint against the ousted premier and his wife.

On the complaint by FIDF lodged on January 16, the agency indicated that Thaksin and his wife had violated Article 100 of the Anti-Corruption Act and committed other criminal offences.

Meanwhile, Information and Communications Technology Minister Sitthichai Pookaiyau-dom yesterday complained to Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont during the Cabinet meeting that the AEC had threatened to press charges for dereliction of duty for not cooperating with it.

He said the AEC had threatened to use Article 157 for not lodging a complaint against suspects that the AEC found were involved in corruption cases it was investigating.

Sitthichai said several ministers did not understand the legal process and feared that if they named suspects in the complaints that they lodged, they might face defamation cases if the suspects were proved innocent.

"If we name anyone, won't they be defamed? We're not legal experts. We want someone to tell us what to do. The AEC has only eight months left in office," he said.

He revealed that in his ministry, there was corruption at the policy level that cost the state billions of baht, but officials could not bring corrupt ministers to justice, because permanent officials who followed the orders of ministers would also be held responsible.

Justice Minister Charnchai Likhitjittha said there was no need to name suspects in the process of lodging a complaint. Surayud said he would reach an understanding with the AEC on the matter.

Anoma Srisukkasem

Piyanart Srivalo

The Nation

So effectively, Thaksin's wife paid MORE money than the land was appraised for, by the Bank of Thailand. Yet she and Thaksin are convicted of buying land for LESS than the actual value? Wow.

Talk about political witch-hunt.

The land was originally purchased at an inflated price of B2 bil which seems very dubious business practice to me. then Pojaman bought it for B773 mil which was B70 mil more than the appraised price at the time of the sale. So, who made the original decision to purchase the land at B2 bil and who appraised it at B700mil? There's some serious kickback going on there no matter what way you look at it.

Low Caibre bullets to the head/chest. Could be an outside force. Perhaps Japanese...

After all, they did get rid of Mr corruption himself (well almost, he's still clawing at the gunnels and disturbing the boats stability but he'll soon tire and let go).

He won't let go until he dies...

He's just licking some wounds and laying relatively low until the inevitable power vacuum arrives.

They certainly need a new broom at the Customs Dept. Corruption and inefficiency there are a huge drag on Thailand's economic productivity. It is somehow appropriate that the iniative should come from the Finance Ministry, since the current minister's father served for many years as director-general of the Customs Dept and was eventually ousted from the job due to allegations of corruption.

I notice that it is less of a crack down and more of a tentative bill that is being submitted for approval. The idea that a Thai leader is actually prepared to listen to foreign complaints and stream line a department as big as the Customs dept and has actually crafted a logical formula to make it happen is quite incredible.

I will be interested to see if he is able get the bill passed. If they are serious about streamlining the processes and making Thailand more able to deal with a free market economy that signifies a dramatic shift away from the direction of the past 3 years where it seemed like the complete opposite was in effect.

I find it hard to imagine that the ruling elite will be happy with the concept of opening Thailands customs process and making things easier for import and export. I fell that he is going to have a serious fight on his hands to get teh votes needed to pass this bill no matter how clear headed and logical it seems.

A Thai politician thinking and acting with a logical, systematic and forward thinking approach is very unusual. The pockets of the rich must really be hurting right now if they are prepared to consider this bill and if he is able to get this one through and force the reform that is required to keep Thailand competitive with it's neighbours that will signify they are ready for a serious change.

This bill could be a turning point for Thailand in many ways.

"With a report of three people dead"

To reiterate...

Do we have anything more to go by.... other than the "reporting" by an unnamed prisoner AKA "author" in prison?

Has anything he is alleging been corroborated by anyone who isn't ... say... incarcerated for crime? Ironic if he's in there for perjury, eh?

The only other report I've seen...and this one is actually by a news source (NNT News) other then an imprisoned felon's email... which described a solitary case (non-fatal) of swine flu at the Ayuthaya prison.

Surely the highly professional reporters at the bkk post or nation will be able to follow up and get a statement from the prison authorities as to whether anyone working or incarcerated at the prison has died from Swine flu?

Potential mass deaths in one of the worlds most notorious prisons should be enough to motivate paying someone to cover it and get the truth out either way.

Or would that be too much like real reporting and work?

Pandemic A(H1N1) active inside Bang Kwang Central Prison

By John Le Fevre

BANGKOK: -- A British national in Thailand’s infamous Bang Kwang Central Prison has written to the charity Prisoners Abroad asking if it or the British Embassy in Bangkok has plans to pay for the flu treatment drug Tamiflu (also sold under the generic name oseltamivir), for jailed Brits in Thailand.

According to the prisoner, who requested his name not be divulged, as of July 13 two prisoners and one prison guard had died from the pandemic A(H1N1) virus, originally termed swine flu, with at least one other guard at that time “seriously ill” in hospital.

The author says he believes

An unnamed prisoner, without corroboration, is now a source of news AND an "author"??

Isn't there a way to find out if a prisoner has died and especially if a guard has died of swine flu?

Either way it's a horrible addition to the system as there are already a lot of sick people in the prisons as corroborated by innumerous accounts from people who have served time.

Swine flu is incredibly infectious and anyone at risk with a degraded immune system is gonna suffer horribly.

I think this has the potential to really blow up into a mass die off if the prison authorities are not extreemely vigilant.

With a report of three people dead already this sitiuation is most likely gonna get a lot worse. I give it about a 80% chance of turning into a catastrophe at Bang Kwang.

Now I'm starting to feel sick but not from swine flu, my problem appears to be related to a sudden onset of disgust.

Lots of trolls commenting on this thread.

I just feel sorry for anyone trapped in a thai prison who has to deal with h1n1. I had it and it was a horrible experience. At least I had a warm bed, fresh warm water and access to drugs. Although I had a bad reaction to the Tamiflu so that may not help everyone even if they can get it. I can't think of much worse than going through the worst part of this flu in Bang Kwang. It would probably finish me psychologically. I can only imagine what they are going through with the outbreak.

Can't catch the motorists ignoring cross walks so target to slow moving pedrestrian trying to cross the road the best and safest way he/she can. That's great logic and keeps the tea pot warm.

Edit: Have you ever NOT jaywalked in Bangkok? Probably only when using a bridge or sky train station.

Until Thais learn the basic common courtesy of stopping for a pedestrian at a zebra crossing there will be jay walkers in Thailand.

I actually find it is safer to not use pedestrian crossing. What I find weird is that the only people who can be trusted to occasionally stop are taxi drivers. Must be because they are on the road all day so don't have issues with letting pedestrians have some access too.

If I wait at a pedestrian crossing until a driver stops I can be there for days. Even with a child in tow or in a push chair. If I cross 10 meters down the road I find most people will actually slow down and allow me to cross safely.

Often I find that Thais drivers will speed up if they see someone at a pedestrian crossing. I guess this is so they don't have to be the one stopping. But this only makes true hero status in the realms of Thai logic when combined with the point above.

Would be fitting if they spend all the money they receive from the jaywalking crackdown on a public media campaign to teach Thais that the international norm is to stop *at* the pedestrian crossing.

Correction. according to Forbes list

Thailand's Richest

#1 Chaleo Yoovidhya has assets of US$4 billion

#16 Thaksin Shinawatra & family assets in total of US$400million

this was as of September 2008

IIRC Before he became PM taksin was the wealthiest person in Thailand and among the 10 wealthiest in asia. Are you actually suggesting that Taksin gave away 90% of his wealth at that point or is it possible that he just shifted it to off shore locations? There is a very interesting article permanently linked on bkkpost discussing who was the actual recipient of the Termasek deal. By carefully tracing the shell companies to the source and there are about 15 of them you will find that they are actually owned by ....

See this video clip!!!!!! Local medias are not telling the truth!

Apparently, a downtown battle field sparked yesterday as the puppet government used the military troop by way of declaring the state of emergency over the area of Bangkok Metropolitan and its vicinities to specifically dissolve by force the Red-shirt protesters. Red-shirt protesters politically demand the puppet prime minister and government-entangling privy councilor head to resign.

In pictures, the troop brutally shot the Red-shirt protesters, who defended their barracks for political rally, to dead and got severe injuries, while the latter retaliated with no weapons. Not only the ordinary citizen, but also a few monks and a three years old child were also murdered by firing bullets. Most corpses were secretly hidden, taken away and destroyed by the troop to avert any physical evidence. Up to now, nearly one hundred people were registered dead and injured, being drastically and contradictorily contrast to the government report, as saying only two persons were dead.

Some pictures exhibited the Red-shirt women knelled themselves down with flowers in front of the soldiers while begging for their lives. Some pictures delineated the soldiers' shameful actions drawing on by dragging and yanking the hair of an unarmed woman protester.

The government also made image-smearing stories, lies and deceptions by hiring people to wear the red shirts and ordered them to create chaos and destroy public properties during the evening time in order to generate widespread civil disobedience, as if the Red-shirt protesters had done by themselves.

I've seen two of those videos and the person who dragged the women by the hair was not a soldier. It was a shouting match between two red shirted women and a bunch of casually dressed locals.

Second the video with the women kneeling was done whne Army boys were standing with guns Everything looked pretty relaxed. The women was not distraught. She was giving out red roses and looked like she was actually enjoying being the focus and making the Army boys feel uncomfortable about having unarmed people give them red roses.

I have heard about the supposed brutal killing of portestors and taking of bodies. So far we have not seen any video or photographic evidence so I it is currently hearsay although distrubing and worrying that it is being spread as a rumor with no evidence.

I cannot believe 200 red shirted eye witnesses that were unable to whip out a phone and take a quick snap.

I have heard that red shirts were being paid B2000 for each day and an additional B2000 for every person they got to join the protest. There is just as much likelihood that the so called Army killings are a vicious lie being spread by the paid supporters .

So We are all waiting for evidence of the killings and until that happens you are a troll.

I understand what your saying and would add too that I will be watching closely as to the outcome; how the government conducts itself, and to see wether "Thai's" still like jamming themselves into Disco Halls for the sake of "sanuk maak" !

I think the voting majority really dont understand fully the impact that what has (consistently) unfolded before their very eyes - could indeed happen to them. Not in the exact same way, but by the same form of neglect and incompetence and the most important variables, "stupidity and ignorance."

Thanks,

Randy

I have no doubt that dodgy night clubs will continue to function simply because the police have offered to pay for "all" legally attributed medical bills due to this event. Due to the speed at which they "decided" to make this concession I have no doubt that it is considered the acceptable modus oprerandi in Thailand. I mean it was only three days before the western media/blogosphere found out about it so they must have been saying it from the start.

It simply is the way it is and there is very little momentum for anything else.

This thread is already down to 50 odd people from 300 the day it was posted which is also low by TV standards. We can't expect this to be taken any further but we should all be looking out for anyone who does take it further.

I reiterate that Dissolution and anyone else who is affected should seek counseling and if possible a lawyer who can get the police/BMA to pay for it. If they can't get it funded there is a small chance that it will be news worthy enough to keep the topic alive in the local press if they will be bothered to run it. At the very least there will be members here who will be sympathetic and will go out of their way to help out.

I think he is going to need a lot more than 2 mil baht.... 32 survivors in ICU are probably costing at least that amount every day.

2,000,000 / 32 = 62,500

I think there are few more parties liable to pay: The very government body responsible for overseeing safety inspections- The Ministry of the Interior(???). Another party that should also be liable is the Thai Government itself; ultimately they oversee this ministry responsible for keeping its people safe to which it too has also failed. There's more than enough money to give these poor souls families, millions of Baht - I believe !

Thanks,

Randy

The problem is why should rich people get paid off when poor people of this country with just as many if not more difficult issues don't get a shoe in? Think Deep South, Issan, Karen, all the people living on the railways tracks...

The system is rigged and although the authorities are willing to pay for the legally attributed costs of this tragedy they should not be given a blank slate just because they (depending on your point of view) accepted/skimmed/extorted/skimmed/accepted enough in the past or near future to cover their negative cash flow from this event.

One question with an event like this is whether the voting majority care enough about the issue to make it a serious political item or if it can be hushed by enough cash to the affected parties. I'm very interested in how this event plays out in the public view over the next few months. For example, in NZ heads would be rolling.

If I was one of the affected families,citizens or tourists I would be baying for blood right now.

Just that the small stone thrown in the koi pond doesn't usually hit a big fish.

@dissolution

We all feel for you.

There are several serious legal questions that Thai Visa assoc could answer. I feel the most pressing is whether the Police or BMA will pay for counseling?

In NZ it would be standard procedure for the Police to provide trauma counseling assistance to the victims of such a tragedy

TV: Don't hold back on this one...

Whatever the cause of the fire, I think it's a given that other fire safety regualtions were ignored and the blatant disregard of these regulations is about as political as it gets.

Sorry but I think this is the one that will finally expose Thailand's true colours to the world - no matter how much censoring is pushed on us.

Sorry but I think you are talking total Bull Sh!t, it is a not a political issue, this problem of corruption and taking bribes to look away is older than any political party, what Thailand needs now is a leader with enough gut's to do something about it.

Please, you are taking my use of the word "political" too literally - corruption IS political, in fact I'd say all human interaction IS political.

Just the act of some trying to prevent our speculative analysis of blame, etc is proof of the political-ness of it .

Not exactly. there are plenty members here who would love to have an excuse to make narcissistic comments and rile people up and the political angle gives them the excuse.

That seems to me why they moderators are removing political statements from this thread to stop the a holes from taking this thread off topic.

However I don't think that we can seperate the politics from this event as it is clearly corruption that has made this event into the nightmare that as the club shouldn't have been open as a club in the first place let alone for 4 years. Thonglor Police have got to answer for that and as one person already pointed out the police are actually paying for all the victims medical costs. That probably also means they will be available for the lawyers and insurance companies to contact directly and will make all arangments necessary to cover the expenses incurred. Hence they are going to pay everyone whatever they are legally due.

Basically if the victims were poorer they wouldn't have to pay as much.

Still all the above doesn't rule out arson on the part of the building owners. Easy way to make some extra cash from the insurance payout. With the official spokesperson for the police already writing it off before the investigation even started it is highly reminiscent of the standard template that is applied to these type of events in Thailand. The whole situation is completely typical.

According to the police in an article a ways back, their insurance policy expired months ago. That still doesn't rule anything in or out, but this is the official word from the police so far.

I assumed they were talking about the club owners not the building owners. Either way how is it possible a functioning nightclub/restaurant with capacity for 800+ can have no insurance policy? Sounds like a very messy state of affairs even in Thailand. Surely they could get a short term coverage for the bar due to the number of people on the premesis and the value of the property?

Not to mention that there must be a law that says entertainment venues have to have at least third party type insurance if not fire and water damage etc...

I expect someone round here must know these details as they are written in Thai law.

@madi

A very plausible theory.

The theme of the night was fire. They booked "Burn" to play at midnight and they had organized to have many sparklers available for handing out to the crowd. Maybe they had done some estimates on the fire risk and thought that the ceilings were high enough to handle it? Most likely not and they just wanted to have a memorable event so that people would come back once they relocated.

When was the last time the air con units were cleaned? They knew they were closing so why bother spending money on maintenance. They probably thought they could wing it for an extra week/month. We all know how badly smoke affects aircon units so did the air stop circulating at the peak and cause even more toxic gaseous buildup than expected?

Too many people with added combustible fumes from burning sparklers, dodgy aircon units possibly giving up, no doubt crappy wiring due to general standard of QC applied to other important safety matters and definitely lack of exits, sprinklers and safety lighting.

Still all the above doesn't rule out arson on the part of the building owners. Easy way to make some extra cash from the insurance payout. With the official spokesperson for the police already writing it off before the investigation even started it is highly reminiscent of the standard template that is applied to these type of events in Thailand. The whole situation is completely typical.

The cops and the courts are 100% negligible for allowing the place to continue functioning. Definitely a textbook case of the Mai pen rai attitude at work here.

The thing is that wealthy Thais and expats generally are happy to pay for higher quality control and in this case the QC was lacking so why did people frequent the place if it was such an obvious risk?

Because that's why most people who come to Thailand are looking for. Adventure, risk, danger. All fun in the sun with the chance of getting caught out to make things more exciting.

Why do the Thais allow this condition to continue? Because most of them don't know any other way of life.

Will things change from this event? Doubtful.

My fireman friend would scoff at all the theories being thrown about with wild speculation here.

Why not own it yourself instead of having to bring your so called expert friend into the picture?

Do you have any specific evidence to discredit the build up of four years of alcohol soaked residue from being a contributing factor or are you just trolling for a fight? Pretty lame on a topic like this.

I do have a friend trained in ignition inspection, so I'll let him own it. Settle down. I just think it's unnecessary for many here with zero expertise to give their theories with no evidence. I was not referring to you or to any particular post, but a build-up of posts. Pretty lame on a topic like this for people to speculate about things they really don't know about. There are many different accounts so let's just let the experts do their work on this one.

It may be acceptable for you to leave it to the authorities to tell us what happened but some of us would rather try to figure out the various angles so we can have a better idea of whether they are pulling our legs with their results when they do tell us...

JUst viewing the footage of all the sparklers- wonder if the sulphur fumes collecting at the ceiling acted as accelerant or even ignition?

Sulphur fumes are heavier than air so no to this theory.

You are funny. How sulpher fumes rise. HAAAA AAAAAA

Maybe you know when you heat air you can put it in a balloon and it goes up. Oil is very very heavy but when the oil fires were burning in Kuwait, the air did go up a few thousand feet. So much for my basic physics for children.

Here it is for kids.

http://www.historyforkids.org/scienceforki...hotairrises.htm

Slam dunk. Madi. You spotted the troll.

I was just thinking that smoke from the sparklers drifts in the air so how can the fumes be ruled out as a contributing factor?

Clearly some people have no moral credibility if they are willing to troll on this topic.

My fireman friend would scoff at all the theories being thrown about with wild speculation here.

Why not own it yourself instead of having to bring your so called expert friend into the picture?

Do you have any specific evidence to discredit the build up of four years of alcohol soaked residue from being a contributing factor or are you just trolling for a fight? Pretty lame on a topic like this.