Pete70

3 minutes ago, BE88 said:

 

If you want to see it clearly, go and find it and talk to him, you have the only reasonable solution left, all the others are ways where you would lose more money for sure in all cases.

He moves around a lot. I may just end up in Vietnam with him nowhere to be found.

Just now, Khabib said:

That's very true, but imagine the grief, paperwork, guaranteed cost with assurance of victory, going to the uk for restitution. I'm with you though.

Going to the UK?

For a small claims court case?

Just now, Liverpool Lou said:

Yes, those courts do work but in every case there is a plaintiff and a defendant and no court anywhere works for nothing giving you a guarantee of the plaintiff's success!  It seems more outrageous that you'd expect that.

Didn't make myself clear. I would expect someone to at least look at it and say "yes we'll deal with this, it's reasonable, has all the necessary proof, etc" before being forced to pay a vast sum of money.

Just now, mvdf said:

Best way forward is to "appeal to his conscience" (as the saying goes) by perhaps trying to revive the friendship. This might sound calculating or even manipulative but then again, if you are intent on recovering your money, this might be an effective alternative. 

 

Using law enforcement or debt recovery tactics in this part of the world is not always a guaranteed solution. It can be expensive and any assurances given should never be relied upon.

It would be done in the UK, and the UK only. Law enforcement in SEA is, well, doubtful in its efficacy, at best. I wouldn't even bother trying.

And yes, I'd be happy to come to a solution.

But tell me - what's a reasonable amount of time to just sit here and wait, not knowing, not having closure?

For me, it was a month, and I feel like I waited far too long already.

Again, I'm not saying I want to wait 2 weeks and get all my money back. Just communication. That's all I was waiting for.

And it never happened.

4 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

for a small case, they are not going to bother FB, and it might be insufficient in the eyes of the court. He needs to tell himself to the court. Electronic communication is "accessory" and can be used to discredit the "testimony" of the party, but courts always want to hear a direct testimony first by the party. Without the testimony of the party, electronic communications are insufficient for a final decision.

You're saying if a guy says "A", it's irrelevant that I have electronic communication that proves he originally said "B"?

I don't believe that can be true.

2 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

You're making an assumption that you're not getting anything "helpful"!  Maybe you're just not getting what you wanted to hear.  As you said, you "have no idea". 

Many have been helpful. Just you, you haven't.

1 minute ago, Khabib said:

 

The only problem with oral agreements, it enters the realm of hearsay.

We have a facebook chat log.

That should be simple as it can't be tampered with and the courts can request that directly from facebook.

7 minutes ago, ukrules said:

So you've both been scammed together and you're attempting to make him pay for it all.

 

You're quite a friend aren't you.

 

I hope he reads this.

It was his decision to deviate from the plan and pay a stranger, not mine. His mistake, and he deliberately excluded me from it.

How else am I supposed to see that?

2 minutes ago, 3STTW said:

 

It won't work; no transaction took place in the UK. Aside form which, there doesn't seem to be any paper trail or legally binding contract.

A transfer to a UK bank account is a transaction  in the UK isn't it

And there is a paper trail documenting said transfer, as well as the "promise" to send back the funds.

Just now, itsari said:

Why not go to the  small claims court  in the UK as your friend has assets in the UK that you could possibly recover your money from if successful with your claim .

It costs 20'000 THB just to submit a claim. That's a lot of money.

Is this something that actually works?

https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/court-fees

Their fees of 5% seem outrageous to pay in advance and without any guarantees? Talk about a bad investment...

1 minute ago, 3STTW said:

An acquaintance of mine got burned in a very similar manner about 4 years ago. He was working here and he had a professional colleague and longtime friend who was in Malaysia. The investment was mining equipment from Australia. 
Upshot: equipment ended up on a dock in somewhere in AP with incomplete paperwork, the Oz supplier went bankrupt, by the time his mate had paid all the custom charges to get equipment released, it had been butchered by the locals.

 

So my acquaintance in Thailand went after him legally because his mate was managing the deal. 
 

And got nowhere. Even with contracts and recorded transfers, literally nobody was interested.

 

They stood to make millions but it was a precarious venture at best, mainly because they relied on third parties to do the most important legwork.

 

Any ‘investment’ that looks to good to be true, probably is. And, as ever, never invest money that you are not prepared to lose.

 

Cut your losses and move on.

Yeah I invest extremely conservatively. I don't own shares or options or anything of the sort. I don't gamble.

The only reason I did this was because this was the single most highly trusted individual in my entire life. I would have trusted him with the life of my daughters for <deleted>'s sake.

Just now, from the home of CC said:

expats ripping off expats - I believe this year it's going to featured at the Olympics, a whole new meaning of 'going for the gold'...

ripping off someone is one thing.

Taking half their entire family's savings? That's a whole other level.

1 minute ago, Liverpool Lou said:

No contact for a month after you confirmed that you p_issed him off and he confirmed that he'd reimburse you, does not constitute "international fraud" .  Did you, perhaps, accuse your best friend, who helped you financially though a bad time, of international fraud?

 

As you said, you "have no idea and you're not a legal expert".

No-one has accused anyone. As I've stated above I simply wanted to know where the funds have gone.

Anyway, this isnt' helping. I'm not getting any helpful legal advice here at all.

Just now, Liverpool Lou said:

"I don't think it's all too relevant where someone is located at the time".

If an offence has been committed, it's very relevant.   

 

Your voluntarily transferring money, with no contract, to your friend's UK bank doesn't necessarily constitute an offence on his part.

A verbal agreement, or a written one in chat, does constitute a contract, doesn't it.

1 minute ago, sanuk711 said:

I think you are being to tough on him--

When you needed his help- he was there to lend you money

---and happy just to take it back it drips.

 

You decide to go into a businesses together, of which it seems you know little about, but he has all the knowledge. When he (thinks ) he sees a way of saving money for you both on the outset of the business -- It fails. If it hadn't then you would also have reaped the reward. But as it didn't your now calling this "International Fraud"  and looking to take him to court. The court will take years (I have just finished a 3 year one against a Thai Company) isn't it worth waiting until you can make the journey and see him, talk with him.

International Fraud is a criminal offense--do you really think thats what your friend is guilty of---or just a business mistake in which you both got burnt.

That was my thought exactly, yes.

But after a whole month of ghosting, and further blocking any attempts of making contact? It's too much.

I'm no legal expert - it is what I think fraud is, I could be totally wrong there. No idea.

Just now, Liverpool Lou said:

What's your private arrangement got to do with his boss at IBM?

To see if he still works there? Or if there are more things out of order that I wasn't aware of?

Just now, Liverpool Lou said:

To quote you, "your <deleted>ty attitude and bossy manner", perhaps?    

Sure, if you're panicking and worried you just lost $12000, I'd wager to see that anyone can lose their politeness.

No reason to just run off with the money and ghost the person, is it?

1 minute ago, GrandPapillon said:

Taking him to court in the UK might be a better option, but this will be a small claim case, could be annoying enough for him to respond to you, but doubt the court will have a clear cut judgement on that one

 

he might be stressed enough by the situation of losing money too, that he needs to focus on "finding the guy"

 

or it was an elaborate scam to get you funding for maintaining his life style in Vietnam. 

 

IBM has been "cutting" a lot of expats overseas and IT engineers in the last few months

Let me try and reach his boss at IBM. I have his email address.

3 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Just 34 days ago he told you that when he finds the person he sent the his and your money to you'll get your money back, that's how.    

If that was believable - what is the reason for refusing to communicate?

If there are good intentions, there is no reason not to communicate. The active blocking of all forms of communication clearly tells me he wants to forget about me.

1 minute ago, Liverpool Lou said:

It seems to be a clear cut case of your voluntarily sending your best friend $12,500 without a contract.   It was only 34 days ago that he told you that he'll get you your money back so how has he committed an "international fraud"?

34 days since he actively blocked me. How does that put his words into perspective that I'll get my money bacK?

Everyone seems to say to pursue this in Vietnam. But why not England?

The legal system is far more reliable.

He is English, and so is his Passport.

The funds were transferred to a bank account in England.

Is that not enough for the matter to be considered English?

Just now, Pete70 said:

It's the former. The agreement was to purchase a product we looked at *on platform*. Not directly via another, undisclosed contact, and then losing it all before even getting started, which is what ended up happening. Or so he claims. I don't know what to believe anymore.

 

Think of it this way:

- you see a product you like on Amazon, a platform that offers you guarantees and a certain level of safety to protect your purchase

- due to the high cost, you decide to split it with a friend

- your friend then buys another product elsewhere and gets scammed

5 minutes ago, wprime said:

I might be misunderstanding this, but it sounds like you invested in something with your friend, and all the money was lost because of a scammer who failed to deliver some product.

 

What this will come down to is how would you be rewarded from this investment? Were you entitled to a share of the profits or were you offered fixed payments and reimbursement of your initial investment after a specific date?

 

If the former, then you have a claim against the scammer, you have no claim against your friend. The fact that he made the decision to purchase from the scammer is only relevant if he acted against your agreement or if he acted negligently which would be difficult to prove even if it was true. Essentially, you invested in something that failed, you have no recourse against your friend just because he invested in it as well and you demanding he pay you for your losses when he himself suffered the same losses is a real dick move.

 

If the latter, then you do have a claim against your friend.

It's the former. The agreement was to purchase a product we looked at *on platform*. Not directly via another, undisclosed contact, and then losing it all before even getting started, which is what ended up happening. Or so he claims. I don't know what to believe anymore.