AussieBob9999

5 minutes ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

This is an unfair post.

Pictures of Ongoing work. 
Thai basher, eeh? Lots here I can see, negative comments, etc. Most I reckon are coming from those abroad. 

Yes, the worksite is a little different to what we are used to but so are the prices..... council fees, water rates, internet charges etc. 
You want the cake and eat it too. 

I like Thailand the way it is, it's not perfect but nor am I. 

Yes the OP is asking for quality tourists, it's a fair request. I reckon they should also ask for normal tourists, some of the freaks and weirdos, oddballs and misfits I see arriving is alarming. 
 

I like Thailand too - but to deny the truth is not a viable solution to the problem - that is the Thai way - they just let it all go.  But to show you the truth - all it takes is google. Type 'dangerous sidewalks Thailand' and then click on 'Images' - there for all to see - including motorbikes riding on them - and blocked walks forcing people to walk on the road - and low hanging dangerous poles/awnings that hit Expats in head/eye - and lets not forget the electricity poles and wires everywhere.  Then do it for Singapore -  none of that - in that country it is all about trying to stop bicycle riders going too fast. 

Hey - I agree - it is what it is - but the fact is that TAT is saying they want only high quality rich tourists - but their 'product' does not suit that demographic - around SEAsia that is Singapore and Macau and maybe still Hong Kong.  The Thailand tourism 'fit' has been for decades mainly about backpackers, value family tourists, adventurers, sexpats and retirees/expats - they should live with that and not drive them away.  Sure there are some high end places in Thailand offering 5 star luxury resorts for the rich - but they aint coming in anywhere near the numbers they are claiming and they never will.   Come on - think about it - you are a millionaire - you might try one of the exclusive 5 star resorts on a Thai island maybe - but you aint gonna do it again - not as much as Monaco, Maldives, St Kitts, Paris, New York, Hawaii, Aspen, Seychelles, etc etc etc.  They are kidding themselves going for that market as their main target group. 

1 minute ago, mokwit said:

The end of easy to get double entry tourist visas probably didn't help with the Swedish overwinter market - sure they can stay 6 months just do all the paperwork and financials for the new 6 mth tourist visa or OA if 50+ - or maybe they decided Thailand could stick it.

I have a mate who is from Sweden - he did not live in Hua Hin, but he said the end of easy Visas did a lot of damage to those Scandinavians who wanted 6+6. That plus to general decline in Hua Hin, especially the golfing tours decline, lead to many leaving.  

Jingthing beat me to it - that review was not for retirement locations, it was done by Internations (mainly business people) through an online poll they did of their members at each location.  If 90% of members in Taiwan said it was great and only 80% of Mexico said the same - Taiwan wins.  How many Internations members in Taiwan - probably not a lot compared to say Singapore. 

International Living released their list and Thailand aint on it - mainly for Americans.

https://internationalliving.com/the-best-places-to-retire/

An Australian site gave their cheapest list and again Thailand aint on it:

https://www.yourlifechoices.com.au/retirement/the-five-cheapest-countries-in-the-world-to-retire/

That site reckons 11,000 Aussies retire and move overseas every year.  I imagine that number is about the same (relatively) in each western country.  Does Thailand realise how many people are no longer looking at Thailand as an ideal place to retire in SEAsia - over 10 years ago they were at the top of nearly every list.  I know that the current Govt doesn't want them - only the rich ones - but when will they realise what that policy is costing them - 2023 election maybe? 

2 minutes ago, poskat said:

"Noteworthy in the Phuket Sandbox revival this year was the fact that each tourist spent 70,000 baht, he said. "

 

also noteworthy was the fact that they had to stay in higher cost approved hotels and pay for a few covid tests.

Very true. 

And my question is how do they know that amount - what methods do they use to count tourist expenditures while they are in the country.  I guarantee they are not counting how much they spend with street vendors or local malls and markets or restaurants and bars etc. because there is no way they can count that.  So what are they counting.  TAT reckons Chinese tourists spend more than any other tourists - how do they know that. I reckon their spending numbers are as valid as their arrivals numbers - fantasies created to suit their narrative. 

4 minutes ago, Kenny202 said:

I think you are right re Vietnam and they completely by passed the sex tourist route and went straight for the middle class market and have done exceedingly well. They were having issues with their taxi driver scams etc and cleaned it all up. Vietnam is quirky, interesting, old school and lots to see. A very charming place. I love living in Thailand for other reasons but as for a holiday destination I would rather go to Vietnam any day of the week. Some of the nicest, smartest most genuine, welcoming and motivated peoples I have ever met, even in the face of so much adversity in the past. And its not for the high end hotels or resorts. It's for all the things I would not have or see in my own country. Apart from the handful of generic overcrowded landmark sites in Bangkok, and millions of temples of every size and type, there is very little Thai culture, heritage, architecture etc to be found here. And they must have a rich history. Vietnam do very well with village tours. I don't think I have ever seen anything like that in Thailand and Western people love that stuff.   

 

I doubt Thailand has ever done any real research re demographics, target markets or customers needs. The first negative or constructive criticism they got they would have got defensive, started finger pointing and made excuses. And lets face it. it was all so easy for them back in the 80s, 90s. It just all fell in their lap. 

 

As an Australian, we already have resorts and beautiful beaches, with decent food of all cultures. Coming to Thailand with a family to second rate beaches, resorts with average at best food and service, unsafe transport.....that lets face it are not much cheaper than back home these days ain't going to cut it. I am sure the Thai smile and welcoming attitude of the people that used to be in these tourist areas has long gone. Middle class Europeans / Eastern Europeans as well as the Chinese should be Thailand's target market. But then again how does Spain / Portugal /  Yugoslavia etc compare in Europe value wise and quality of service.

Yes mate - I have heard the same sort of stuff about Vietnam - thanks for sharing that info. In 2020 there were 4 times the number of TripAdvisor and Expedia searches for Vietnam than for Thailand - that had never happened before - Thailand was always number 1.  When you now do a web search of best places to retire - Thailand is no longer on many of the lists - back in 2009 Thailand was always 1 or 2.  And when it comes to tourist destinations searches - Vietnam (Ha Long Bay) is always listed ahead of anywhere in Thailand - and so is Cambodia (Anghor Wat).  Things have changed - Thailand has competition for all segments of the market and if they think wealthy tourists going to Phuket and Samui are going to 'save' Thailand tourism, they are very much mistaken. 

Take a good look around the golf courses of Hua Hin - they are a disaster overall.  Except for Banyan and Black Mountain and the military course, they are all run down and very shabby. Most places that look OK (we visited them all) are just keeping up appearances - they are struggling and have been since 2017.  What was once the premier location for golf tourists in SEAsia and won many of the awards - is a crumbling ruin of what it once was.  Greg Norman is building lots of golf courses in Vietnam - I believe that he aint built one in Thailand for over 20 years and that says something (and no one else has much either - just a few -makeovers and renames).  That same thing has been happening all over Thailand in all market segments - what was once the best and most popular place in SEAsia has been in decline since 2016. Sure there are still the few gems in places like Phuket and Samui and Bangkok and Chiang Mai (and many of the past Pattaya still exists) - but overall things have been declining for Thailand in the tourist market.  But unlike the Vietnam tourism industry, they aint listening to customer feedback - they just cannot accept criticism - positive or not.    

6 minutes ago, Robin said:

Thailand has made its reputation  as aa destination for cheap back-packer type tourists and sex tourism.  Now it is having second thoughts as these categories are going elsewhere.  it might be too late to change now, and beyond the ability of Thais to do so.

TAT will need o be far more imaginative and active to get these imaginary "high quality tourists"  who mainly want a high quality destination.  

Very true mate.  But the nature of Thailand will not change, and that is the problem and always will be. 

When I was staying at a place in Chiang Mai when looking out the balcony there was an old Thai style house next door with a rundown garden etc.  One day Thai blokes arrived and started cleaning up the yard and removing the old rubbish.  Then they started on the house. They did not clean it - they did not prepare it - they just painted a bright lacquer straight over the old wood - everything was dodgy and not done well. They did the same for everything - it was all about looking good - not fixing and upgrading it properly. The boss saw me looking on a few days - he thought I was interested - he came over one day and said '5 million baht' - I politely declined with a smile as you have to do.  I did not say that the work they had done was total khrapp and I was looking because I could not believe how bad a job they were doing. I also did not say that the house would be terrible in 1-2 years, and that all of the appliances were cheap rubbish, and that I doubted the plumbing and electricity would last a year without needing major upgrades. 

My point is that the same applies for many of the 'tourist places' built in Thailand - it was all about how they look - maintenance and repairs and upgrades are just not something that is done in Thailand - anyone who lived there a while knows that.  Things have been going downhill for a long time - since the 90s - add the takeover and subsequent policies - and then add the pandemic - things are not good and not going to get good for a long time.  Millionaires visiting Phuket and Samui and paying for easy long term Visas, aint gonna fix the problems with Thailand tourism (and economy). 

4 minutes ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

I've noticed quite a few new tourists (not of high quality) arriving in Pattaya recently, riding around soi Buakaow, shirtless, full of tattoos, without masks or helmets.

It's a shame some of these guys didn't use some of the money spent on all those tattoos buying a gym membership, it's not a nice site, grotesque. 

Anyway I'm sure they feel they are sexy man once more of the bars open up and the bar girls can tell them. 

Yes mate - they are the main ones who are going back at the moment (plus Expats, Family and Business people). Those are the tourists and expats that the Govt has been trying to get rid of (sexpats and sextourists). But in trying to get rid of that type of tourist and expat, they have removed and/or alienated the largest part of their 'average' tourist and expat 'market'.  There has been a lot of Aussie Expats who came back to Australia, and are not looking to go back there anytime soon. Same for most western countries.  Some went to Vietnam - some to Philippines - some Bali - some are waiting to see what happens because they love Thailand and/or have a Thai partner (like me).    

4 minutes ago, Kenny202 said:

You would only have to look at the Philippines for the life lesson here. It was the go to destination in the 70's early 80's. Pretty much what is happening here happened there, and Thailand took over their market nearly overnight....never to return. The Philippines are still struggling to recoup their tourism back 40 years later. If Myanmar / Cambodia (both have coastlines) ever get their act together, get some investment, build some truly world class resorts and facilities.....Thailand with its old tired same ol same ol are going to be toast. I applaud Thailand in one way for wanting to attract a better class of Tourist, they have a lot going for them, but high end no way and no time soon. Walk before you can run. Cheap food and girls are one thing but that can easily be taken away by some of these neighboring countries. As someone noted middle class family type people from cold countries who don't have natural recourses, beaches and islands. Even that's a pipedream the way things are at the moment with little safe infrastructure or decent facilities.    

Agree 100%.  It was why I chose Thailand over Philippines over 10 years ago.  

Vietnam is positioning itself to take up that role.  Covid brought out their 'military mentality' - but if they go back to their previous 'business mentality' they have a great opportunity to succeed in the lower/middle class tourist and Expat - who outnumber the others by a long way.  Likewise, Malaysia is making a big push for the middle class Expat - they have a great Visa program with lots of incentives. Indonesia have blown it with their approach (also going for the high enders) - when Bali is deserted by the 'ordinary' Aussies they will (maybe) regret that decision and change their minds.

8 hours ago, peter zwart said:

Still, I think things can change. Thailand had sunk in its own arrogance because the tourist money came in so easily. Now you would think that people would learn its lesson during this corona period. But I fear that will be short-lived. The real lesson comes when the amount of incoming tourists will be very disappointing pre-corona. Then things will change.

I think change will only happen after the 2023 elections if/when the current Govt is voted out. They clearly have an ideal Thailand in their delusional minds that is not what it was, or is, or ever will be - and that certainly does not involve Expats or western tourists.  It would certainly help remove them if the numbers of tourists after Covid do not increase anywhere near the numbers that they have been stating - another reason I am reluctant to visit. 

TAT is not what they say they are - TAT is the Government mouthpiece for all the great things they are doing related to tourism. And when they dont work out, they merely change the narrative and provide more rhetoric such as:   1 million tourists by end 2021 because of the Govt's great job in opening up Phuket etc etc etc.  Reality then arrives - and they just completely ignore that ridiculous statement (like all before them) and release more delusional rhetoric.  Because what they are really all about is being a PR arm for the Government. This Government has 'politically weaponised' all Departments in the Government - TAT is just one of the most vocal.  Very rare 'dissent' or criticism from any public servant is severely dealt with - demotion and re-assignment. If the current Govt is re-elected, then things will only get worse for western tourists and Expats.

28 minutes ago, tonray said:

Let's see ..I'm not what would be classified as a high earning, big spending foreigner...but...in the past 3 years I helped with down payment on a townhouse (where I now live and maintain), I bought 2 cars, I bought two insurance policies (one for my health and one for my extension), and of course I spend money for food, domestic travel, etc etc. But tired old expats like me...out....big spending high flyers in....5555

That there is what has gone wrong in Thailand IMO since they took over in 2014.  Things started to decline in 2015 but they were able to get their Chinese 'mates' to send millions of tourists to more than make up for the losses of those dirty pesky westerners.  One day not soon, they will realise that those Chinese tourists spend most of their money in two ways. One is with the operators, and the other is at the big malls/duty free. Very little of that money goes directly to the average Thais. Australia stopped courting the Chinese tourists years ago - they spent most of their money with Chinese owned businesses - unlike backpackers who spend it all over the country - and who we now give 12 month 'working' Visas (from select countries)., And many of them stay and marry a local and start a business - win/win. The Chinese do none of that.  Sure we will take them and their money - but they aint who the Aust tourist agencies target as much as they used to - until they realised their money was not spent where we want and the social problems they were causing.    

TAT are currently 'making their case' to Govt for 3.2 Billion Baht funding to be maintained/increased.  They are saying what the Govt wants them to say - appeasing their masters - who have the money they want to continue to do the same terrible job they have done for decades.  They took all the credit for the increases and blamed everyone and everything else for the numbers decline - Covid was a god-send for them.  They count every single arrival as a tourist (including Expats, Family, and Business) and they make up ridiculous numbers for what they spend - all total fallacies made up to make themselves and the Govt look good.  Next headline from TAT = 50 million tourists by 2030 all spending 1 million baht each.