chutai

Some time ago I came across something written by Sangharakshita of the FWBO , which I found to be interesting.

Buddhism, Neitzsche, and the 'Superman'

There always was different icing on the cake (doctrinal and practical differences)...

I actually meant to say the decorations on the cake ..., rather than the icing.

the following older thread goes over SGI beliefs on the efficacy of chanting the Japanese pronunciation of a Sanskrit title for the Lotus Sutra (ie Nam Myoho Renge Kyo):

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Chanting-t22...amp;hl=nichiren

Thank you. I was just beginning a search for that thread myself. Although I'd like to correct the claim that was solely an SGI perspective, but one shared by other Nichiren schools, and perhaps by others who utilise other forms of mantra as their essential practice.

Point taken. Hasn't SGI has split from other Nichiren schools?

There always was different icing on the cake (doctrinal and practical differences) between the multitude of Nichiren sects -- but of course the ingredients remain the same.

But I think that you're referring to the acrimonious split with the Nichiren Shoshu priesthood in the 1991.

the following older thread goes over SGI beliefs on the efficacy of chanting the Japanese pronunciation of a Sanskrit title for the Lotus Sutra (ie Nam Myoho Renge Kyo):

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Chanting-t22...amp;hl=nichiren

Thank you. I was just beginning a search for that thread myself. Although I'd like to correct the claim that was solely an SGI perspective, but one shared by other Nichiren schools, and perhaps by others who utilise other forms of mantra as their essential practice.

Although I personally found the discussion ultimately circular, it will no doubt go some way in answering the question posed on the specific subject of chanting the daimoku.

Oxford Will. I'll get back to you on the other questions/comments raised in your Post #34

Is SGI Buddhism more about happiness-seeking than truth-seeking?

Does the two heve to be compartmentalised as being different aspects of the same reality?

The four paramiters or perfections:

Eternity, happiness,, true self and purity.

It's when we know the true reality of all phenomenon that we become happy. And as we learn to cast off the shallow in order to reveal the profound nature that reality do we become happier. It's a dialectical process if you like. They are both co-dependent in origination and manifestation.

He says the real purpose of religion is to bring happiness. He says his mentor said the real purpose of religion is to bring relief to the sick and poor. At no point does he say the purpose of religion or SGI buddhism is to discover anything true about reality. In fact, he assumes a great deal about reality in a matter of fact way.

You need to read and study more widely to understand that is not the case. There is much that has been written on the ultimate reality of ichinen sanzen. President Ikeda assumes only that readers of that interview will have slightly different emphasis on the nature of reality in Buddhist thought. It was not in the remit of that article to explore deeper areas of Buddhist philosophy, but to forge a greater understanding.

But we can never come to any satisfactory conclusion by trying to work things only by intellectual reasoning. Especially when to experience that reality in its totality is beyond words. Hence it's sometimes referred to as the Mystic Law for that very reason.

However:

Through chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, we can manifest a state of life in which , by embodying the principle of the eternal and unchanging truth, we can live from moment to moment with the wisdom derived from this truth that functions in accordance with changing circumstances

Understand or not, the above is the important thing. To chant in order to realise a transformation of mind and more , even a transformation of life itself.

Oxford Will. You are very fortunate to have the very good friend that you do. A friend who has introduced ,and wants to share with you the manifest benefits of chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo. The Lotus Sutra has parables explaining just the same intent. That is, Shakyamuni Buddha's intention to lead all to the the supreme enlightenment.

“The Buddhas,the World-Honored Ones,wish to open the door of Buddha wisdom to all living beings,to allow them to attain purity*.That is why they appear in the world”

*Purity -- free from illusion. The ultimate reality.

slander

There's a word you never hear in a spiritual context, never hear from other Buddhists, yet I've heard (read) SGI members use it several times.

I'm wondering why use such a legalistic word as "slander"? Is it a poor translation of a Japanese word? Otherwise to me it gives the impression of a climate of control or fear, maybe that's just me.

You've never heard the word *slander used in relation to a spriitual context , by which I presume that you mean Buddhist?. I realise that you've never read the Gosho (honored writings) of Nichiren, but he uses the word many times.

*To deny, oppose, disparage, or vilify the correct Buddhist teachings.

I don't know the answer to that, a quick google and you'll see a lot of information on the Net about them, some good, some bad. Here's a few that look interesting, I don't know how reliable the info is but it's a start.

Then why reproduce it here ?

Myself if I were to go down that root of reading only, then I'd like to think that I'd be courteous and rigorous enough to read the couple of books written by independent academics who have researched the SGI, and their conclusions reached from impartial observation, that I think could be accepted as being not only reliable, but also holding far more credibility.

But of course none of this is in anyway a substitute for using ones own wisdom and judgement in finding out for oneself. Otherwise , theres a tendency to spread things which could be interpreted as being tacitly condoning that which is manifestly untrue, rather than engaging in constructive dialogue .Such is the means of divisiveness and I'm afraid -- however unintended and unskillful that course may be.

Does SGI publish any of these figures? I couldn't find any.

You'd need to contact one of the SGT centers I suppose.

What if they give it back or simply stop attending meetings?

If people give back their Gohonzon. then I'd imagine that they'd not be included on any further list of members.

Non attendance to meetings is no way of quantifying whether any one person is still chanting or not. People sometimes "disappear" from such an activity, only to reappear again, and so forth. No one is written off just because they don't attend discussion meetings. Nothing is quite so rigid.

Oxford Will

As you can tell, this thread has become one that requires answers on so many issues. My suggestion is that you read the following interview from Tricycle Buddhist magazine and then post any questions that you're unsure about relating to THIS

I'm a philosopher of a western tradition so that is my "framework" if you like, for judging it.

Only that learned through experience is truly internalised.

May I add, with regard to propagating Buddhism, that after a period of time when starting to see and feel the benefits of the practice people start to notice and are actually drawn to a person spiritually fulfilled wanting to know more rather than being themselves trying to persuade them.

Yes. That's exactly how it happened in the Buddha's time.

How do you qualify this ? Did not emissaries travel abroad to propagate Buddhism ?

But certainly Shakyamuni did attract those by his demeanour. And that he went out of his way to engage people rather pojecting himself as being aloof. As we always say, that it is by our behaviour as human being that we are judged.But the impression that, e.g. Brucenkhamen is projecting is one of being evangelical zealots -- or at least in regards to the OP's friend . When that is far from being the case. As I've explained in my post concerning the expedient methods of propagation.

Blimey! A couple of years ago an SGI member told us there were 100,000 members in Thailand. Now there's 500,000. You must be signing up over 500 Thais a day.

Well, if that was me then I made a mistake as I was told over 3 years ago the membership that I have stated.

How exactly do you define a "member" for statistical purposes?

By those who have received Gohonzon.

Actually in my experience Buddhists generally treat people with respect and tolerance, not as potential converts. The irony is this hasn’t stopped it from spreading worldwide, and it’s is probably one of the reasons outsiders tend to like Buddhists more than people from evangelical religions.

Yes, it may well be. But you seem to be trying to fit something into ill-fitting suit, and passing judgement on those in a situation that neither you nor I know very little of. In fact the OP was referring to a Mahayana sect, not a Theravadan one. There was also some confusion concerning basic Buddhist teaching.* The mission of a bodhisattva in Mahayana is to introduce others to Buddhism -- but only utilising the teachings of Buddhism according to the understanding and capacity and basic nature of the persons one is addressing, and according to time and place. The two terms employed in Japanese are shoju and shakubuku and both have distinct roles.

As you say , most people would be will be put off by an over zealous and insensitive approach to propagation. That's one very good reason Soka Gakkai has attracted over 12 million practicioners in 192 countries and provinces, in a relatively short space of time -- including 500,000 in Thailand who now practice Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism.

The heart of the Lotus Sutra is leading people to happiness, a tranquility that transcends all suffering. As emissaries of the Lotus Sutra, it would lack compassion and be almost a slander (of the Law) to deny others the capacity to nurture the four paramiters by holding such a jewels to oneself, or select few. It certainly wouldn't serve the progress of humanity.

*Which again brings me back to attempt answering the OP's original post.

I think Chutai on this board would be able to answer specific questions you may have about SGI, i haven't had any experience with them beyond heresay

I will indeed. But later today probably as I have a busy schedule at the moment.

It sounds to me you feel your friend is like a "born again buddhist" or suchlike, if his beliefs make no sense to you and he isn't prepared to try and present them to you in a logical reasonable way then why should you care, don't let it bother you. If your friendship works then great but if he's treating you like a potential convert, that's not really the buddhist way.

All of the above seems an oddly biased perspective really. Especially the bit about "born again Buddhist" (from what I can glean his friend is a Buddhist of long standing) , 'treating people as potential converts' and not being the "Buddhist way". None of us would be practising Buddhism today if Buddha Shakyamuni and latter emissaries had not travelled to propagate his teachings.

But I have no desire to pursue a potentially fruitless path of discussion such as this would undoubtedly elicit. Not least because it would serve no benefit in answering the OP's line of enquiry.

I once read that when traveling on the path with an open heart, guides will appear in ones life to help one move to the next stage.

Let's hope so. I usually hear this in relationship to Tibetan Buddhism, which features a very close guru-student relationship.

Yes. I think so, camerata .Also in Tibetan Buddhism there is a saying that you don't find your guru , but your guru finds you. Which comes close to that quote.

Rather than being some celestial force, which could be read into what rockyysdt quoted, in Mahayana Buddhism the disciple mentor/guru relationship is a key factor in realising the attainment of the bodhisattva way.

By developing a shared heart, spirit and even vision for the future it's been said that it ...

The drama of the oneness of mentor and disciple, in which there is a mutual resonance and response between the Buddha's resolve to save all living things and the resolve of the disciple who seeks to embody and propagate the Buddha's teaching, is epitomised in this expression, "This is what I heard."

Although we shouldn't neglect that our guide is also in utilising our own Buddha nature and Buddha wisdom that will definitely emerge through actual practice.

They place a high value on looking wholesome.

Interestingly. The most fundamental reason that I could find as to why those with a disability were to be denied ordination was that having such also meant an inability to reflect 'the purity of the Buddha's body'.

My goodness, what is that all about ?

name='tomahawk' post='3062447' date='2009-10-08 13:53:00']Thank you Rocky That was very interesting and helpful. By these rules I am not qualified even if not from injury because I am too old. I never considered this to be a problem but perhaps it is. I would not have problem following other 8 rules and even have been not eating after 12 pm and find I can do it though quite hungry.

As has been intimated by others & myself these rules may be negotiable.

That's not the case I'm afraid. In Theravada such rules are as written in stone. I had lengthy correspondence with who you may know as Phra Farang , long before he de-robed and he , although sympathetic, couldn't offer any flexibility on that which was stipulated by the First Patriach.

Although those practising within the Thai-Theravada tradition in the UK did suggest "arguing within the Dhamma" why these rules should no longer be applicable. But it would, I believe, take several lifetimes to change what is a monolith of rules within organised religion.

Those that suggest a relative autonomy from wat to wat, have not tackled this problem head on.

But true you really do not need to become a monk to follow the Dharma. In fact there is no Buddhism outside of everyday life, and life in turn should challenge religion rather than the other way around.

Thank you Rocky That was very interesting and helpful. By these rules I am not qualified even if not from injury because I am too old.

That which was posted is only a general criteria. The actual Vinaya rules are in fact much stricter concerning disability. I researched this in some depth at one stage and was saddened by a seeming lack of compassion. Although I did contact an Acharn in Burma and was informed that physical disability* wouldn't elicit such exclusion there.

*The rules also cover 'mental disability' but of course that can't be seen.

A Buddhist with a true understanding of the teachings would not want to criticize another's beliefs and would not mind what people did with the Buddha's image. The point here, though, is it is against Thai law to "insult" a religion - any religion. The government usually makes formal complaints about overseas companies using the Buddha's image in what they consider an insulting way.

And yet there is a restaurant I have seen at Central World with a Buddha-like figure in its sign and a name called something like BuddhiBelly.

Doesn't that relate to Hotei (Jpn) ,or to give it it's original Chinese name, Budai or Putai. That is the fat , laughing Buddha who the Chinese and Thai-Chinese, Buddhists/Taoists think that by rubbing his belly it will bring good luck.

Only slander of yourself and others and the Dharma matters at all in bringing negative consequences. The apparent matters not at all, only the intent.

Hello everyone. I was planning to go to wat for a while to be ordained as monk but I have back injury and cannot sit for long time as monks do.

If it's not considered a disability, e.g. from having webbed fingers, and all else. Then you'll be ok. Sad but true,

Many thanks, Snr Torres. That's exactly the kind of information that I was looking for.

A few years ago -- I think on this forum -- there was thread about some research undertaken and a straw poll, concerning which side of the brain is used for learning languages as opposed to the side most used for scientific related things. It was hypothosised, and sort if verified by the poll, that those who are good at ,e.g. maths, may not be so good at acquiring language skills and vice versa.

Does anyone remember this topic and/or the research ?

Cheers

rockyysdt

please don't think that I'm ignoring your questions. I have answered them -- twice in fact -- and then managed to lose them both whilst trying to locate a recently read article that would put your permanent & unconditioned in context. I have other things to address today, but will come back to you in the near future.

A more interesting question might be whether or not the Muslim majority in the area actually knows the historical origins of the present discontent.

It's really not a question of whether it's interesting to you or not. Rather one of relevance and accuracy and trying to veer away apportioning blame solely to one side . And to suggest that most Muslims in the deep south are unaware is absurd and not a little patronising, in my opinion. I suggest that you Google something like Thaksin + human rights + record to gain a better historical understanding concerning the ignition point of the present minority violence. That at least can be dated

However, for pertinence sake. From a Buddhist perspective, what would be your understanding of the profound nature of conflict and violence ?

My Thai wifes father was a Christian, there are also Muslims , each to there own live and let live

Really !

But some Muslims in Southern Thailand won't let you live in peace.

Without condoning any violence whatsoever and having a deeper Buddhist understanding of it's fundamental causes. I am, however, prompted to ask whether you know the historical origins of the present discontent in the deep South ?