Alf Witt

I think people who write unintelligible nonsense are showing off their potential to be the next president of the U.S.A.

Four years ago I was introduced to an elderly Englishman who had fallen on hard times, but even in his impoverished circumstances, he was able to survive reasonable well, and made several trips a week to some of the cheaper bars, and take advantage of ‘happy hour’ beer prices, and more importantly, rely on a few old friends to buy him a few.

He was a bit of a crusty old bastard, who had no topic of conversation other than how hard done by he was, and how he lost all his money to his ex wife many years ago, and how his UK pension had been frozen more than 20 years ago (which was his sole source of income) and so on. If you tried to change the subject, he would quickly bring it back to his own misfortunes. He swore he would never return to England, he lived in a small 2 bed apartment in Prakanong, and managed to survive by using the buses, and for the most part, buying fresh food from the market and cooking himself. Being with him was ‘hard going’ but a few did their bit to help.

Fast forward 4 years.

He is now 80, very frail and semi-crippled following a road accident, is now unable to use the buses and is more bitter and twisted than ever. I ran across him in central Bangkok, on one of his rare forays from home, and got him nice and pissed. It seems that he is now totally friendless, as he has lost such friends that he had, by asserting that no-one helped him when he had his accident, and when he meets any of them on one of his rare afternoons out, they never offer to help, or put him in a taxi, or offer him a lift etc etc.

He says that the farang community in Thailand is totally heartless, and the Thais are no better. He is desperate for some home help who can take care of his basic needs, and said he can provide room and board plus 7,000 Baht a month for anyone who could take him on. He told me he has tried to put the word out, but there have been no takers.

He certainly appears to be totally alone now, and his future is very bleak. As I said, he is a difficult old bugger, but he still has all his faculties, and he doesn’t deserve to spend his remaining years like this.

Certainly if he was in England, he would be looked after much better – by both the social services – and – even these days, I believe in most areas the neighbours would look out for persons such as he.

Is he right? Is the farang community here heartless and uncaring? Are the Thais equally heartless and uncaring? Many in his neighbourhood are aware of his circumstances and no-one ever offers to help – not even by giving him a lift the main roads when they see him hobbling along with his cane.

But he will never go home. So what is the solution? Is there one?

I don’t know the answers, but his plight bothers me a lot.

He is not a close friend - in fact I have only met him 2 or 3 times, but I would like to do something, if I can.

And on a practical level, does anyone know of anyone – maybe up country – who may be willing to take care of him? If so, please PM me and we can explore it further.

I have quoted the OP here as, having read through the entire 10 pages, I didn't find any answers to the actual questions posed. The post seems to have been an opportunity for the hardhearts and the softhearts to respectivley posture.

But let's look at the questions asked.

Is the farang community here heartless and uncaring? Clearly not, although as in any cross-section of humanity, some demonstrably are.

Are the Thais equally heartless and uncaring? Certainly not in my experience. Most are the opposite, but again, as in every community some can be totally self-interested.

So now, after ten pages, that these questions which conveyed the perception of this old man are answered. Let's try to analyse his situation.

Why does he experience this? As far as I can see there are two possibilities. Either he has acquired such a negative reputation that even the majority of caring persons don't want to be involved or (perhaps more likely - notwithstanding his age and frailty) this is just his line to elicit sympathy (and perhaps find well intentioned people like Mobi to "get him pissed". "No one helped him when he had an accident". I have only one reaction to that - unbelievable.

From Mobi's earlier experience of the man he was totally self focussed. What has changed? Could it be that his "tale of woe" is, in fact his survival mechanism? If he is still compus mentus at 80 he will have learned a few tricks in his time. As an earleir poster said you have to stay alert to survive in Thailand.

What are his actual "needs" as distinct from "wants"? Food, laundry, housekeeping? It hasn't been suggested that he needs some medical care. Is he able to bathe/shower etc. How can anyone respond meaningfully without knowing an actual needs list? Or is there some innuendo in the phrase "anyone who would take him on"? Is he expecting something more than these services? Food, laundry, housekeeping etc. are not by any means difficult to come by in Bangkok? So what really is the problem here? Either 1)his grumpiness goes way beyond what anyone can reasonably be expected to tolerate 2)there is an undisclosed element to his problem or 3)he is a cunning old man playing the sympathy card. I'm not judging here - just analysing the facts.

He is said to have all his faculties. He has adequate (albeit modest) amount of income (even if we ignore the plausabilty problem about that).

He knows what he wants. Its not help at all costs but help according to his agenda.

Mobi. I think perhaps (I only say "perhaps") you are being a bit too soft hearted. The elderly can be very cunning. Especially when it comes to survival strategy.

So your final questions. "What is the solution?" "Is there one?"

Regretably I think the answer is "No".

This isn't a problem. It's a factual situation. Facts we have to learn to live with (including ageing) and I sense that, in his own way, that's exactly what the old guy is doing.

I don't always agree with you TG ... but I do this time!

.more than half of the country voted democratically for TRT, yet most of the farang here hate them, and don't want them in power.Amazing really.No bias here at all....go the junta!!!

In the US, more than half of the country (or people who voted) voted for Bush in 2004 as well I think. And look at how popular he is at the moment.

The first requirement of democracy is an informed electorate, not one that is systematically deceived and lied to by power seekers.

The cynical manipulation of potential voters is most effective in countries where a majority of the population is of low educational standard.

In considering this issue I can detect absolutely no difference between the USA and Thailand. Neither Bush nor Taksin are true democrats. Both are unashamed abusers of the democratic process.

Suggested reading for anyone who wants to put religious belief into perspective:

"The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins - available in Asia Books now. factual and well argued - a brilliant read.

Love isn't any different in Thailand, it's just that too many people who don't know what it is come here looking for it.

What guide book are they using, cdnvic? Would it be the "Rough" Guide, or the "Lonely" Planet or perhaps "Asia on $5 a day"?

Torito, Glauca (preciosa) from Spain, even qwertz breaking into Spanish? What is this? Are the Spaniards the only people left who have any opinion about love? Don Jaun is alive and well and living in Thailand!

And most of them leave LOS empty handed.

Doesn't this rather contradict your DIY suggestion in your earlier post, qwertz?

I do not know what is love....but I believe that there is one only......even the one who dare not speak its name

Love cannot be defined in isolation and absent of all other aspects of life, such as passion, atraction, relationship, culture, survival, races, sex, time, culture....

each mix is unique, but love is the component that has the magic, that has the force to move, to transform, to blind, to lie...

Well that certainly clarifies it for me.

What is Love?

What is love in the Land of Smiles?

Is it different from elsewhere?

I have just been reading posts on the subject "Pattaya is great for lonely men" http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...0560&st=135 and I was amazed by how often the word "love" came up. The word was nowhere in the original post so it set me thinking - is it a necessary ingredient in relationships? Does it exist in most relationships whether in Thailand or in Farangland? Do we delude ourslves that we "love" our partner or that they "love " us (as suggested in many posts). In any case, what is it? Do we all define it in the same way?

Let me kick-off with some ideas. When I hear some people talking about "love" I often get the sense that they are basically motivated by self-interest. Example - this partner makes me feel good, he/she is physically attractive (in my eyes at least), I enjoy being in his/her presence - therefore - I love him/her. Is that love? Not in my book.

In the same post there was a story about a go-go dancer who bent down and kissed a disabled man who had come into the bar. To me there is more "love" in terms of human kindness being displayed by that single act.

Other posters mentioned their happiness at introucing an elderly parent to Pattaya or their regret at their parent having passed away before they had done so. They were attacked by the same posters who seem to judge relationships between farang and Thai (usually girls) on the basis of "love". It's not love (however they define it) therefore its worthless, its delusion. The same posters seem to fail to detect the love being expressed by those who care about the happiness of their elderly parents to the extent that they are not going to moralise about the parent's behaviour. They don't detect that unselfish love which is the only love I can truly relate to.

Some posts expess the sentiment that the Thai girls are only in it for the money and her partner is deluding himself about the relationship which they rush to condemn. Their point seems to be that "love" is something that is valuable only if it is on the receivables side of the balance sheet. What do these people know about love? Does it never occur to them that an elderly farang may care for his partner and that he may be happy to support her (and perhaps even her family) even if the primary motivation in the girl is security/financial support? Do they attach no value to unselfish love? There has to be a return? To me they miss the fundamental concept of love when they express themselves in this way.

Love is something which can develop and it is most likely to develop on a reciprocal basis even if the relationship did not start that way. I am sure that many of the apparent mis-matched farang/Thai relationships that the "love" lobby choose to criticise have developed that way but they are too cynical to see it - probably because they have sought love as a receivable and have had a predictbly bad experience.

Sure there are gullable farangs and selfish Thais but that does not mean that every relationship has to be judged by that yardstick as the "love" lobby would have us believe. Lets leave that aside. Its been thrashed to death in other topics.

Are relationships fundamentally any different in the West or is it just that the veneer is slightly thicker? The financial needs are not so close to the surface so we can indulge in pretending its all about love? Are those in farang/farang relationships deluding themselves any less that those in farang/Thai relationships? Perhaps more so. Most marriages that last seem to do so out of habit or because the partners get basically what they want from the relationship. But is it love and, more to the point, after a while are they giving love?

Is a mutually convenient relationship necessarily a bad thing anyway? Does it matter if partners love each other or is it sufficient that they both behave as if they do? From a receivables point of view which is all that seems to concern the "love" lobby it would seem to make little difference.

What do you think?

Rupert, I have not hitherto posted on this subject as I felt that I had nothing to contribute and then, Eureka! The solution became clear.

Apparently Thailand suffers from a recurring incidence of "buffalo sickness" and "unexpected premature buffalo death". What is desperately needed is buffalo carers to tend to these unfortunate animals.

Apply in any bar.

There are good and bad people in every soceity. Does Pattaya have more than It's fair share of the bad ?

Yes, it does. Those "bad" people from world's societies have concentrated in Pattaya.

Tatooed sheet metal workers from Dresden, UK football hooligans, US midwest shitholes residents, alcoholics, whoremongers, social rejects of any and every kind...the source is the whole planet, the destination is - Pattaya.

That's why it gets more of bad than any average place.

Being on the family side of what Pattaya has to offer, I am contempt.

Enjoying what most of the visitors or residents don't even know exists there.

Hey, I hadn't realised that Pattayaites fell into such easily distinguishable groups.

We could organise some great football matches.

viz. The Dresden Tatooed Sheet Metal Workers v. The US Midwest Shitholes

The Pattaya Whoremongers v. The UK Football Hooligans

It has the makings of a whole new league.

Will all those in the various catagories please identify themselves and indicate their willingness to meet the opposition in some friendly matches?

Yes Thailand in general and Pattaya in particular is a haven for social inadequate, disabled or just plain ugly western men who can find love and companionship here which is simply not available to them in the west.

I know a guy in Pattaya who none of the above. Well maybe one of them.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone who knows anyone who is none of the above. Maybe it is you?

Hi Neeranam,

I'm "western" and I'm not in Pattaya. Does that disqualify me?

fame is but an albatross around my neck... much rather have an aussie round my neck.... legs, that is! Fine dining.... but I can't seem to find any aussies... know any?

What's wrong with a Thai around your neck, that's normal? If you really want your fine dining to be formal find one with bow-legs.

I thought IQ by definition should average at 100. Then you compare individuals with the average.

Well isn't that pretty depressing when one encounters the "average" Thai?

The really depressing thought is that, by definition, 49.99999999% of the population is below "average" intelligence.

Just an aside: Wasn't 49.99999999% George Dubbya's vote? I've always wondered how he came to be elected - now I think I've found the answer.

Phang Nga Bay is one of the world's finest unspoilt areas of outstanding "natural" beauty consisting mainly of islands.

It takes a really insensitive individual to dream up the idea of creating an "artificial" island there.

It is akin to a proposal to introduce plastic flowers to Kew Gardens or build a concrete mountain in the Alps.

Loads of money but not a grain of class.

Ed Kelly is your man as per above.

Also for a practical approach that will get results check out www.orioninv.co.th

You can buy them very cheaply.

One of the small retail shops in Big C, Phuket has them.

Also there is a big shop in Phuket Town.

Can anyone tell me the best and safest Hwys/roads to Phuket from Bangkok?

Is is best to drive to Suratthani then cut inland?

Much thanks

Assuming that you are in the "centre" of Bangkok get onto the expressway an follow the signs for Dao Kanong. This will eventually take you over the Chao Praya river. You will cross a very modern bridge. On the other side of the bridge the road splits and the sign says Dao Kanong or Samut Sakon. Take the Samut Sakon road which will lead you off the expressway.

Follow this road for about 80 kilometers passing Samut Sakon and Samut Songkran. Eventually the road will split again with Ratchaburi to the north and Petchburi to the South. Follow the Petchburi route. About 35 kilometers after Petchburi follow the singns for Prachuap Kiri Kan (unless you want to stop over in Hua Hin - the Hua Hin road meets up with the Prachuap road again at Pranburi).

Just keep following this road through Prachuap and on to Chumpon. (At Chumpon you have the option of turning right and going via Ranong to Phuket. This is a long winding road for many, many miles, so unless you have loads of time and want the scenic route don't go that way).

Just continue from Chumpon via Lang Suan towards Surat Thani. You will see signs for Surat Thani Co-op. When you reach this don't proceed off the road towards Surat Thani town but continue for another 10 or so kilometers. Don't go over the overpass here (its called Phunpin) but take the sliproad to the left and turn right under the overpass. It should be signposted Phuket 200k here. This road is signposted all the way either to Phuket or Phang Nga. Its very winding in parts and you pass through a number of towns where you have to make some turns. Just keep looking for the signs.

You will eventually come to Phang Nga where a T junction goes to the town (right) and Phuket (left). Follow this road until you cross Sarasin bridge. You are in Phuket.

If you want a simpler (but longer route) continue over the overpass at Phumpin for about 40k. A new road cuts across coutry towards Krabi. This is an excellent highway with very little traffic (and very scenic if done in daylight). When this road ends (just north of Krabi) turn right for Phang Nga.

Unless you are a super fast driver expect the journey to take about 10 hours allowing for fuel and refreshment stops.

If you are comfortable driving in the dark consider doing it overnight as there is much less traffic.

Good luck.

P.S. On your return journey be sure to look out for the turnoff to Samut Songkran about 35k north of Petchburi. It is very easy to miss and Bangkok is signposted straight ahead via Ratchaburi and Nakon Pathom, but that will add 90k to your journey.

so what use is your suggestion to telephone the embassy?

Quite simply because they are the people who know for sure. This forum has given you the best help it can and yet you seem to be waiting for an answer that suits you. If you want a definitive answer I still suggest that the best is to phone them

You speak for the entire forum?

How many times do i have to explain this Alf? Is your hearing aid not working properly?

I am not intolerant of elderly people, and nothing that i have posted on this thread alludes to that fact.

Good to see that you have come out of retirement Rambo.

Just to refresh your memory here are some verbatim quotes from you:

"these dinosaurs" reference to older people in your first post.

"Some of what that entails must be quite repulsive" "not a nice thought"

"She had to leave early to get back to her dinosaur husband"

"In a better world they would be living their dream of hooking up with a decent guy". So, older people are not "decent"!

"hooking up with these old codgers"

"Is your hearing aid not working properly?"

That to me sounds pretty disrespectful, insulting and intolerant whatever you say.

Here are a few of your sentiments about the women that you claim to feel sorry for:

"Apparently they're often easy lays"

"A thai friend of mine in Khon khaen, decent looking chap, is constantly nailing these women who are married to elderly farang" Nice friend. (or is it just YOU wishful thinking)

"a lady has just arrived at my door requiring urgent attention"

"I'm being entertained by two lovely young ladies as i type."

You are also totally disrespectful of the women you claim to be sorry for.

Not one elderly poster on this thread has found it necessary to boast about his conquests. You are singularly alone in that regard and, since you obviously don't realise it, most women find that "quality" very unattractive in a man.

You seem to think that you are privy to the inner workings of women's minds but you are way off the mark. Just ask. Most women value security, respect, consideration etc. far more than the Rambo image or those who regard themselves as "Us younger, virile studs" (another of your quotes). Looks and age are low in the list of priorities, especially amongst Oriental women (Did you ever take a look at their "god" image and some of the monks that they respect?).

Although you don't realise it the real you is very transparent to the oldies who have been around the block a bit. I've only got one piece of advice for you: "grow up"

So which is it? Wireless Road or Klong Toey?

Can someone confirm which and that they have actually been there recently?

As YESTERDAY is not recent enough for you and all recent applicants have said they had to attend in person but you're still not sure I suggest you phone them on 026618284 and ask

No need for sarcasm, Mahout. Since conflicting information was posted it is reasonable to enquire which is correct.

I also asked in my original post for information from someone who had been there "in person" for exactly the reason that hearsay information is not reliable. I had already ascertained 3 different adresses and neither response indicated that the poster had been there "in person".

The nearest thing that there is to a Bangkok Spanish Embassy website (which I had already posted in the appropriate thread as no one else seems to have posted it earlier) is the following :

http://www.mae.es/Embajadas/Bangkok/en/Men...+sobre+visados/

The paramount reason for the existence of Thai Visa website is to discuss matters relating to visa applications and the personal experience of others so what use is your suggestion to telephone the embassy? This forum may as well close down right now if that sort of attitude prevails.

The advice on the "Embassy" website is as follows:

"The visa must be requested and collected in person at the diplomatic mission or consular office for the area in which the foreign national resides."

That is then contradicted as follows:

"This can also be done via a duly authorized proxy in the case of a transit, visitor’s or resident’s visa for reasons of family reunification."

Since the whole reason for the existence of this website is discussion on visa topics it seems to me appropriate to enquire how far they "insist" (the word used in my original question) upon the application being delivered in person.

For the sake of clarity I will pose the question again, very simply.

"Has anyone had personal experience of presenting a visa application at the Spanish Embassy on behalf of another person?"

"If so, were the application documents accepted?"

"Has anyone had experience of papers presented on behalf of another person being refused? That is refusal to accept the application papers as distinct from refusal to grant the visa."

Information re any personal experiences would be welcome. Thank you.

Soon they will have a new law about what people are thinking.

Too late. It already exists. The Thai law about working without a work permit includes exerting mental energy.

So, if you don't have a work permit and you are in the habit of thinking, look out.

Thailand - the hub of unenforceable laws.

I know that they want the applicant to be there but does anyone know for sure if they insist on that?

The applicants live 850 kilometers from Bangkok and one is a child who is at school. It seems very unreasonable that they should miss 3 days work and school just to hand in papers personally.

So which is it? Wireless Road or Klong Toey?

Can someone confirm which and that they have actually been there recently?

Can anyone who has visited there recently confirm the address of the Spanish Embassy Bangkok (Visa section). I have found three conflicting addresses on the internet.

Also do thy insist on the visa applicant handing in the application papers in person? Thank you.