SamuiGrower

10 hours ago, UKJASE said:

i dont think it takes much artificial light to stop them flowering. 

Gas Lantern Routine (GLR) is a quick go to, used by outdoor growers in equatorial short day conditions (12 hrs light), to keep cannabis in a vegetative state and preventing flowering.

It is essentially night interruption. If you have a 12 hour day and a 12 hour night (more or less), you interrupt the night cycle (skotoperiod) with 1 hour of light. The scheme is as follows:

12 hours light (day)

5.5 hours dark

1 hour light 

5.5 hours dark.

 
Stringing low wattage led bulbs a meter over the plant top is all it takes.

12 hours ago, rumak said:

Any link to an article you can suggest ( simpler the better)  that explains what is thought to be why thc has this effect on painful joints and muscles would be greatly appreciated

Cannabis has been known to be an anti-inflammatory as well as having analgesic effects, alleviating symptoms associated with pain, swelling and chronic inflammation.

The issue is with quantifying dosage and purity. This has alluded medical science, as research on cannabinoids is relatively new due to stigmatization and legality in funding studies. Progress is being made and there are more and more studies. Israel leads the crusade on medical cannabis research.

It is further complicated by the fact that medical cannabis research utilizes Cannabinoid fractions, I.e THC, CBD, THC+CBD, CBG, etc. and not whole plant flower “smoking” as a  mode of delivery. Efficacy is hard to measure and many responses are binary: it works or it doesn’t work. It may work for one person and do absolutely nothing for another. Control groups and placebo response often overlap.

To further add to the frustration, one study may show a positive conclusion and another shows a negative response or no definitive conclusion at all. 

Most well researched and funded studies draw a singular and VERY important conclusion: THC or CBD alone has not shown the reported efficacy as compared to THC+CBD in concert. 

Most cannabinoids attach to receptors (CB1 and CB2) and regulate certain responses, I.e THC attached to CB1 and you get high. This is an over simplification but illustrates the point. CBD does not bind to any receptors but MODULATES the effects of THC. In essence, CBD down regulates the high and acts as an anxiolytic (anti-anxiety). Some cannabinoids act as antagonists (blocks a known effect), agonists (produces an effect) and reverse agonists (produces the opposite effect) depending upon the inclusion of other cannabinoids. 

CBD, purported to be a sleep aid, is best utilized with THC as opposed to CBD alone. Read the previous posts in this thread for anecdotal evidence.

THC is known and prescribed in pain management but CBD is not. An FDA approved drug (USA, Canada) Sativex (Nabiximol generic) is a botanical 1:1 THC:CBD oromucosal spray that has shown to be effective in pain management and sleep disorders (as well as MS spasticity).

Here’s the part that attracts the trolls: The science does NOT support the marketing claims. The claims are rampant, the YouTube videos are everywhere and misinformation runs through this forum and all the others around the world. Human nature is always looking for novel, innovative, passive ways to treat everything (weight loss, sleep, pain, etc.) and cannabis fits in nicely with that concept. How many people have said, “….I want better sleep but I don’t want to get high….” They look towards CBD, the cure all panacea for all that ails them. There is simply no empirical evidence. If there was, CBD would be know the world over as an effective sleep aid, and apparently, it’s not.

People tend to take the least path of resistance and find the link, video, testimonial that matches their belief system. Most people don’t read medical journals or white papers. ANY company (for profit) offering their cannabis derived ‘magic bullet’ will tell you exactly what you want to hear. 

If you do self-directed research, look at timely articles, 2020-present. As more and more research is done, the science becomes more definitive.

I have attached links (hopefully permitted) that support the points I’ve made in this post as well as other posts I’ve made on the subject. To the poster: I apologize as there are really no “simple articles”. The science is less palatable and digestible compared to the marketing claims.

Cannabis and pain (National Institute of Health)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK224384/

CBD and pain (Harvard)

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/cbd-for-chronic-pain-the-science-doesnt-match-the-marketing-2020092321003

Cannabis and inflammation (Frontiers in Pharmacology)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9124761/

Cannabis and chronic pain (NIH)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK574562/

I hope this is helpful. Feel free to contact me (DM) if you wish.

Decarboxylation is likely a subject best suited for a heading in its own post.

Because it’s being debated here, I’ll post my 2 baht(s) worth.

It’s unlikely @BritManToo is experiencing a placebo high (he’s an experienced player, after all) or the THC is being destroyed (in its entirety) as a topping on a 400F oven pizza. First, let’s bring in the rest of the audience, to make them ‘decarb’ savvy .

The phytocannabinoids in dried/fresh, cured flower (bud) exist in two forms: the acid form (I.e. THCa, CBDa, etc) and the non-acid (normalized) form (I.e. THC, CBD). A typical analysis of flower, might look like this: THC 3% THCa 17%. The acid forms are always in higher abundance than the non-acid/normalized form.

If ingested (flower eaten ‘raw’) by you or your dog, the high would be negligible or minimal, as only the THC fraction can get you high while the acid fraction will not. If smoked (combustion), heat will convert the acid fraction to the normalized form. This is the easiest explanation of decarboxylation.

You are essentially removing one carbon atom that happens to come along with two oxygen atoms (COOH). This is known as a carboxyl group (CO2+H or COOH). The de-carboxyl-ation process, as a result, produces carbon dioxide - CO2. It is photosynthesis (of C3 plants, like cannabis) that puts the extra carbon item there.

Decarboxylation (decarb-ing) of flower, is a concern for those that make edibles or extract/distillate for edibles or activated CBD oil processors, like myself. If you are a smoker, this wouldn’t concern you.

Weed Pizza Topping

So, on to the question of the efficacy of weed as a topping…. 

@NedR69 is correct about 400F destroying THC but this is not a ‘closed’ environment in a lab oven on an isolated THC fraction. Let me explain.

(He is also correct about eating green/raw leaves BTW)

Decarboxylation is not exact nor is it linear. Ovens are not uniform, not all flower is pre-dried to a friable, uniformly milled sample to begin with. The decarboxylation process is only about 70% efficient to begin with.

Decarboxylation is a function of temperature and time. High temp/short time and inversely, low temp/long time. Old, aging weed will naturally ‘decarb’, especially if exposed to ambient temp, air, light and humidity.

Let’s say ground flower/bud is sprinkled on top of a pizza, it makes contact with sauce and cheese. The sauce, cheese AND weed never reach 400F (204C), in fact unless it looses all water content (Aw), it doesn’t get hotter than 212F (100C). THCa is undoubtedly being converted to THC. The surface area of the weed exposed to the dry heat of the oven, is reaching temperatures that will destroy THC but the remainder would likely decarboxylate, getting you high.

I have no doubt whatsoever that you can get high by sprinkling weed on pizza BUT it would hardly be an efficient way of doing so.

I have attached a time/temp decarboxylation graph below. It is in need of updating (perhaps a thesis for a post grad at USU, UM or Guelph). It is 30+ years old and limits out at 15% THC potency.

I hope this answers a few questions for the community. Here’s a couple of tips if you do decarbing (or remotely interested).

• Start with completely dried (friable) and sieved material and pick a time/temp off the chart. I.e. 145C for 7 minutes.
• If making extract or distillate: place your distillate (glass vial/beaker) in an oil bath at 122C for 24-26 minutes. You will see CO2 off gassing then stopping when completed.

On 7/26/2023 at 5:02 PM, rice555 said:

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to improve the nute formula?

It would be hard to argue with something that has clearly worked for you but I do have some input that you or other readers might find helpful.

The salt formula you are using is a 2.6 - 1 - 3.6 (elemental NPK) formula with an EC of 1.4

I would be slightly more aggressive and use an exact 3-1-4 ratio. It would raise your EC to 1.7.  That ratio is in line with Jack's and Masterblend, two well know salt formulations that have been used by commercial cannabis growers for some time. I am using a 3-1-4 nute program here, on a commercial level, indoors. I would not "under feed" below the calculated EC, as I feel you are leaving yield or potency on the table.

I would swap out your Potassium Nitrate for Magnesium Nitrate (for your other Nitrate source) and add Potassium Sulfate for your potassium source. This will also increase your S (SO4) which will improve flavor in finishing. This will give you better flexibility in hitting the ratios better, that you wouldn't be able to do with Potassium Nitrate alone.

This probably doesn't affect you because you are in soil, with a CEC capacity that holds Ca and Mg - a buffer for these nutrients, which is a good thing BUT I recommend bring calcium ppms equal to nitrogen. I have seen, here in Thailand, high temp and high/low humidity (low, as in not supporting the VPD of high temps.) creating issues with calcium. Deficiency symptoms (due to lockout and not availability) can appear based on environmental fluctuation. When Ca is brought inline with N, all issues disappeared. This 'trick' is really for hydro and soil analogue growers than for you but if you have experienced any deficiencies, i can assure you this will work.

Your 3-1-4 formula would look like this:

N=135

P=50

K=200

Ca=135

Mg=50

S=81

Lastly, I see you are mixing your own micronutrient mix. I know this is a labor (for so many reasons) and will not comment on your formulation but wanted to point out the following: Wesco Chemicals (Bangkok) carries a trace element mix called Librel RMX-26, that you might find convenient. Also, USU has recently done some cannabis tissue analysis in regards to micronutrients and I have included them below in relation to RMX as well as your numbers. USU's numbers are for DWC hydroponics, suggesting that the ppms should be higher in other mediums. The elevated copper, in RMX, is likely due to the requirements of lettuce, spinach, tomato, corn , etc. and has not presented any signs of toxicity for me.

12 hours ago, Pouatchee said:

i disagree that chlorophyll is removed,  and that is why the extract is black... also this is why there is plenty of discussion on using hexane to remove the chlorophyll...

Not sure what the disagreement is. Perhaps I was vague. ????

Ethanol is a common and popular solvent in the extraction of cannabis/hemp. It is scalable, economical, safer than hydrocarbons, and FDA approved in food products. Ethanol (ethyl alcohol) is the spirits we consume. It is not the only solvent used and greatly depends on what you need to achieve and the economic model/budget created. Every type of extraction has its pros and cons.

It should be pointed out, extraction science is not unique to cannabis. Botanical extraction has been done for hundreds of years and is only, in the last two decades, being applied to cannabis. The fragrance, F&B and nut oil industry are the progenitors of the information we use in cannabis. 

Ethanol has unique properties in that it is both polar and non-polar (alkyl and hydroxyl group). This, in and of itself, makes it a good fit for cannabis extraction. It strips ionic and non-ionic compounds: chlorophyll, water, waxes, lipids, lignins….pretty much everything but cellulose. 

Hydrocarbon solvents, like n-butane, n-propane are excellent solvents that will remove cannabinoids and leave behind the chlorophyll but that comes at a cost: reduced yield (compared to ethanol).

You are correct about hexane in chlorophyll mitigation, as its non-polar qualities readily absorb chlorophyll but is rarely used in cannabis extractions due to its extreme toxicity and the expense in removing every last bit of it. In an organic chem lab, hexane is used if the product is NOT to be consumed. This is not to say that it’s never used, it’s just expensive to get it to safety standards. There are better choices (acetone and ether but they are rarely used as well) but chlorophyll mitigation in cannabis extraction is predominantly done through:

Winterization: The cannabis extraction standard. The solvent used in the extraction (ethanol) is cryo-chilled to -40 to -50 degrees. The waxes, lipids/fats and chlorophyll will precipitate out. 

The maceration (solvent/cannabis) is then passed through vacuum filtration, leaving the impurities behind. Filtration is probably the most important step and often not done in “back room” ops. The solvent may then be passed through bleaching clay (fullers earth, bentonite and hybrids) with activated charcoal and DE to mitigate color and other impurities.

The resulting solvent is then run through a rotovap (vacuum distillation), SPD or molecular distillation to reclaim the solvent (ethanol) and leave behind the oil/distillate with that nice golden color.

Hydrocarbon extraction will have a continuous module for each of the above.

If your extract is dark (brown, black, green) it is because of impurities: mainly chlorophyll, waxes, lipids and plant matter. If it is bitter, it surely because of chlorophyll.

I hope this is helpful.

I am a consultant/scientist, here in Thailand working with CBD dominant genetics as well as extraction. We produce a 10% CBD and MCT sublingual product. I can use the opportunity to shamelessly pitch you on my company’s product but would like you to consider a few things first. I wrote about the role and efficacy of CBD in this post and would advise you to read it:

Using CBD as a sleep aid is a “movement” magnified on social media. Because it has anti-anxiety effects it has been co-opted as a sleep aid and this is the furthest thing from the truth. It has more placebo inducing sleep effect than the CBD itself. It is NOT a sleep aid. The anti-anxiety effect only works in the presence of THC. CBD modulates all the effects of THC, not being able to bind to Endocannabinoid receptors on its own. 
 

Other than known analgesic and anti-inflammatory effects, I would first recommend THC (smoking and edibles), melatonin or sleepy time tea if you’re looking for a good nights sleep.

As I wrote in the linked OP, CBD is binary: it works or it doesn’t. It may work for you but still not deliver a good nights sleep. If you are a first time user or considering using it, I would suggest other alternatives first. 
 

And, to directly answer your question to dosage: There is no standardization of any two products on the market as to percent CBD to percent CBD oil in the product. Therefore, to suggest a dose is nebulous. We studied competitors products throughout SE Asia. They range from a half of a percent of CBD to diluent to 2% CBD. 

I would like to point out the percent concentration on the post above is less than obvious and not stated at all. It is a 5% concentration if you do the math. Don’t all CBD users do the math? ????
 

17 hours ago, MisterTee said:

The addition of coconut oil was for its supposed quality of helping the extraction process along with the ethyl alcohol.

The ethyl alcohol (ethanol) does the extraction. It’s a polar solvent and takes everything with it, chlorophyll, waxes, water, etc. 

Though some cannabinoids will dissolve in the coconut oil (not as efficiently as an alcohol or hydrocarbon solvent), it’s the MCT’s (medium chain triglycerides) in coconut oil that gets it into your bloodstream by bypassing the liver (first pass metabolism) without diluting it or changing it (11-OH-THC). This will also lead to faster onset of effects - a bonus! MCT 

16 hours ago, MisterTee said:

OK, so avoid freezing but keep it in the fridge in jars with little or no airspace under the lid.

Is that right?

Not in the refrigerator. Leave the fluff out and nice it up as you use it - whatever makes the medicine go down. Create your concentrate in an amount that befits your usage.

16 hours ago, stoner said:

try making yourself a homemade vacuum purge container. pretty easy and cheap to make. you could purge out a lot more of the residual alcohol. 

Spot on. ???? It’s the residual ethanol that makes it taste like crap. A low and slow vac purge and you won’t need the cocoa….

One table of 200+ around 5-10 days to chop.. The purple sticky is Cherry Abacus CBD (11-13%). The 2 liter colas (????) are old school Aurora, NL’s, NYC D and Blueberry.