ChicagoExpat

Casualty figures are supplied by Hamas, both in terms of numbers and who specifically is killed. It's incredible that the credulous media accept these figures and report them to the world, sometimes with no accreditation at all. We wouldn't accept information from ISIS or Al-Qaeda without questioning it -- it's incredible how often (most of the time) this happens with what Hamas says.

Wicked! An emoji! Cutting edge disrespect. Just showing how much you don't care, I see.

First of all, don't take comments made in a forum like this as serious policy proposals. That said, Israel owes these "traditional allies" nothing; clearly they weren't worried about alienating Israel when they did this. My point is, turnabout is fair play and Spain in particular is in no place to be trying to force an issue.

What you're saying, though, simply isn't true. This is my first comment to you. It wasn't "barging in, disregarding facts" etc. This really needs to be qualified. I too think that someday there should be a Palestinian state but also believe that now is 100% NOT the time to do it. It DOES reward Hamas -- saying anything else is an obvious untruth, and practically speaking... there's nothing to recognize. Who would run this "state", where the controllers of half the territory are corrupt, incompetent and ineffectual and controllers of the other half are quite literally bloodthirsty murderers (who wiped out representatives of Fatah in a brutal purge)? It's sadly hilarious that pretty much EVERYTHING Hamas stands for, and SO MUCH Palestinians would choose to make the law of their land, would be anathema to Irish and EU values.

You can say it doesn't matter to you that you get eviscerated here, but it obviously does.

If you had said instead "Humiliated, discredited, and universally disrespected" you'd have been correct for the first time in this thread.

Awesome comeback! If you're ever up for, you know, discussing the subject intelligently I'm game.

Well, among the ways I think you might be off here is that you seem to assume that 1) Palestinians will (eventually) want Western values. I don't think that's a given. And think there is plenty of reasons to assume Palestinians, and many other cultures, ARE INDEED "different from the rest of us." Heck, WE'RE "different from the rest of us." There is no 100% consensus in the West on what values are right and good for society. The idea that the Islamic world, or other world cultures, want Western values is on its face wrong. 2) And you can see from my other responses that I completely and totally reject a simplistic assignment of blame to this conflict, so I reject the premise of "the question."

And it's part of the historical paranoia and insistence that others unwillingly die on Russia's behalf. Paranoia, because Russians ALWAYS think that everyone is out to destroy them ALL THE TIME, and insistence that others die for them -- well, that's one of the functions of the vassal states they create. And Putin has always been very clear on this -- not allowing NATO on his borders.

Not sure of the relevance? But sure I'll answer. A long a complicated history that involved social, philosophical, and religious values -- the Judeo-Christian tradition, the Enlightenment, Marxism, the American and French revolutions... many many things, some in opposition to each other. Did that help?

And yet, here you are arguing, though with someone who has proved you wrong every single time. So the very definition of fool is... you. Wow, what a beating you take in this forum. All for your fact-free defense of a murderous dictator.

Sure -- it would be a useless gesture designed to get under the skin of the other country. Help anyone other than a feel-good gesture for one side (just like the other gesture)? Likely not.

Lol, stupid with no self-awareness.

Not sure of the relevance?

If they believe installing Hamas as an internationally recognized government will lead to such things as liberal Western social values... well, it's hard to know what to say about that.

I'm both refuting your arguments and not fitting the mold you want me to fit, so you run. I'm the one with the nuanced view of the conflict, seeing fault on many sides, and I'M the "brainwashed fanatic." You see things only from a pro-Palestinian point of view, and are totally ignorant of the actual history of this conflict and the region, and YOU "get it." If you can't handle it when someone politely challenges something you said, as I initially did, and you make up lies about what I said and after several posts it's clear you haven't the least idea what you're talking about... JUST SHUT UP.

It is literally in Hamas' charter. Here are a few relevant quotes and I stop at Article 11. Check them out yourself if you think I took them out of context: Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al Kissam and his brethren the fighters, members of Moslem Brotherhood. (For the simple among us -- @Excogitator – this was before the creation of Israel.) "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.” This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement. (For the simple among us -- @Excogitator – this means any land once conquered by Islam, belongs to Islam in perpetuity.)

Ah, that's literally NOT what I did and I LITERALLY SAID, several times, that the situation is complex and many factors -- INCLUDING Israelis and their attitudes -- were the issue. Look, man, if you're going to argue with me, please don't flat out lie. Which is really dumb because anyone can read what I wrote. >>I too think that someday there should be a Palestinian state...and that cancer is not just hardened Israeli attitudes. Far worse, or at a minimum equally worse, are Palestinian attitudes, Hamas, and Hamas' patron, Iran.

I hope Israel recognizes a Catalan or Basque state. Not quite apples to apples, but also not a bad way for payback.

1) The terror problem/Palestinian propensity for terrorism long predated Hamas. It existed even when things were very hopeful, when there was literally no border or restrictions on Palestinians from both Gaza and the West Bank to enter Israel, and when Israelis made multiple offers to create a state. 2) You can't move forward to create an ideal world when a huge cancer prevents that dream from becoming reality -- and that cancer is not just hardened Israeli attitudes. Far worse, or at a minimum equally worse, are Palestinian attitudes, Hamas, and Hamas' patron, Iran. So I would suggest you're looking at it this the wrong way, and from a way so imbalanced it prevents you from seeing the situation clearly. There are many, many factors in this -- and the best thing an educated person could say about characterizing this solely as "Israel's decades long oppression of the Palestinian people, denying them their own state, and a life in dignity, peace and prosperity" is, it's wildly inaccurate and incomplete.

But not even the IRA carried out something like October 7.

This really needs to be qualified. I too think that someday there should be a Palestinian state but also believe that now is 100% NOT the time to do it. It DOES reward Hamas -- saying anything else is an obvious untruth, and practically speaking... there's nothing to recognize. Who would run this "state", where the controllers of half the territory are corrupt, incompetent and ineffectual and controllers of the other half are quite literally bloodthirsty murderers (who wiped out representatives of Fatah in a brutal purge)? It's sadly hilarious that pretty much EVERYTHING Hamas stands for, and SO MUCH Palestinians would choose to make the law of their land, would be anathema to Irish and EU values.

I literally just posted the dates and places of the invasions and direct interventions by Putin. If something is not correct, the way to argue against it is to show it's incorrect, not run and hide. Insults? There were none. You clearly ARE an ignoramus on the subject and your reply confirmed that -- you were apparently unaware of all the other invasions of which Russia's "SMO" 🤣 is just the latest in the pattern. If I argue with you about something I know nothing about but you are well-versed, I wouldn't cry if you said I was an ignoramus on the subject. I'd shut up and slink away... which in retrospect is I guess what you did in your last post.

Common sense? I do see opinions. So, no -- "common sense" doesn't concern me. I'm commenting on Lou's proclivity to come into a thread and respond to 10 people in a row, often in unnecessarily insulting terms.

I certainly know more than you. If not from living there 2019-2022 then from, you know, actually reading something other than Russian agitprop. “Credible evidence of wild claims”? Creation of the fake country of Transdniestra in 1990 (granted, before Putin but supported since then by him, along with the fake vote in 2006). Invasion of Georgia in 2008 and the creation of two fake new countries out of Georgian territory. Three invasions of Ukraine by Russia – hostile takeover of Crimea in 2014, war in Donbass, full invasion in 2022. None of this is an invention of "western msm" -- it's all an invention of Russia. No one disputes these events, Gweiloman. Except you, because you are an ignoramus on this subject. It's incredible that you claim I know nothing about Russia, and yet you and your simp friends are ignorant of even basic facts.