btate

OK, I am eating makua and they are excellent. Lots of buds and flowers but the fruit are mis-shapen. They are not rounded, a cross section dividing stem half from blossom half looks like an oval and has a few very pronounced ridges/valleys. I have seen this on tomatoes but have no idea what causes it. Any guesses? It almost looks like a string was tied around it in a few places and the fruit grew out where the string was not constricting it.

Tim

Your description fits one of the symptoms of inconsistent watering cycles.?????

Bt

BTATE

I am too lazy to read through old posts, but were you the CHAP that challenged the big fella (MF) to a growing contest. Because at the end of the day, tropical climates are the biggest users of chemicals. That is because no frosts, and upto 10 times the insect cycle of a temperate climate.

SAP

Nope, you got the wrong fella. Never challenged anyone since I know a little of the vagaries of farming from a past life.

I did follow MF's advice though and used the chems he recommended. The bugs in Chantaburi seem to be immune to them lolol.

Bt

Ozzy

I don't disagree with the concept of Marketing Authorities. Would be great if implemented here. I don't see it happening as too many of the power brokers would be hoisted on their own petard STS.

I do think there is a partial solution for the interim. The Thai gov't could set up a commodities index. It is easily done from a gov't perspective If

they would collect the "end of day" pricing for wholesale produce, meat etc, from several large wholesale markets from throughout the country.

This could be 'published' via newspapers or the morning news (village head man speeches via loudspeakers). This would provide two benefits: giving the local producer some leverage with middlemen; providing insight to potential over production/dumping and any other shenanigans in the "fresh" market system.

I've noted elsewhere that 50% of the Thai population is involved in agriculture which provides (a dwindling) 10% of GNP.

As with any 'change' in the Thai system it would take major pain by some of the power brokers and some major face losing.

E. G.

""The other alternative ,as chownah mentioned are Co-op,s ,whether the people exist in the agricultural industries with drive to gel the growers in the particular industries together is another matter,the old union slogan,"Strength in Unity " springs to mind.""

It is odd there is not more co-ops, the idea of the co-op is functioning here. For example the rubber co-op here in Makham is quite robust, even acts as a bank for growers. There is also a quasi co-op run for some mangosteen production with all the product shipped o'seas to China and Taiwan.

Yes, they do take a very small 'cut' off the top and this may be the reason most small holders opt for other avenues of sales. Maximizing cash input leads some of these folks to make questionable decisions me thinks. A quick baht here rather than a dependable source over the years. Add in a questionable 'buyer' with the same motivations and you have the recipe for a mess.

Bt

There are several factors in buying/selling fruit, listed in my perceived order of importance:

Species is by far the most important, there are two specie of durian grown for production here in Thailand.

Grade is the next most important. BiL sold his #1 grade for 26 baht per kilo a month ago.

Time in season, the earlier in the season you can harvest the higher the price. Early producers can make substantial profit.

Middlemen, most are thugs that take advantage of every little thing as most Plot farmers ( up to 10 rai) don't have enough product to command pricing. The BiL deals only with a buyer at Talat Thai - the major fresh produce market in Bangkok - for major shipments such as Durian or Mangosteen. Smaller shipments are sold to local consolidators NOT the roadside pick-trucks you see everywhere. Length of time dealing with the same buyer, year after year, proves beneficial as they know the quality you produce.

A real life experience from a couple of months ago (early April). BiL sold the first mangosteen for 59 baht/K, a week later it was 38/K, two weeks later it was 9/K. The first sale was for #1 graded, once the bulk harvest started there is no longer a grading system as there is just toooooooo much fruit to deal with on an individual sorting basis. I've seen probably about 15,000 tons of mangosteen go by my front door, just to give you and idea of the volume and I live outside a small village on a road that goes nowhere. In the village there was a 40 foot container that left every morning for Bangkok for over two months. All of it mangosteen.

According to government statistics the breakeven point for mangosteen is 11 or 12 baht per kilo. Just like everything else in Thailand, once someone makes some cash in a venture, a neighbor will open/start the same business. The idea is that "if he can make money I can too." Great logic but sooner or later supply outstrips demand. How many times have you seen 3, 4, 5 little stores on a soi that is no longer than 100 meters?

Early adopters/harvesters will make money. Somchai come later will lose his shirt.

Bt

Bt,

How did the Karate work out against the bugs ?

The short answer is " it didn't". I have great plants with leaves that look like sieves. Just now started harvesting fruits. The fruits are good, not a lot of blemishes but don't know how long the plants will go as they are beginning to look pretty grim.

After much consideration I am of the belief that vegetable farming here is not a viable enterprise. There are of course exceptions, chilli, lemon grass, basil, holy basil do well, no bug problems. Tomatoes are semi viable for family use but not on a commercial basis.

The variety and numbers of bugs is just way over the top. The latest is yellow spotted beetles, they just absolutely love the makua and the 40 or so orchids I've got. With the very very wet and rainy times the last few months - pretty much steady rain since a week after Songkran - the bugs are multiplying at incredible rates and I expect they will continue until the dry season starts in November. Its all pretty depressing, on the other hand Maize Farmer's advice proved to be very accurate - start small and find out what your problems will be.

I have some Actara but have decided not to use it. The risk of contaminating the nearby water is just too great. Using the bucket with holes method, I've been able to actually watch the water seep out of the bottoms and drain off towards the canals, not good.

From my experience the only way to grow is to have an enclosed environment, which I've looked into. That would mean a clear roof of some sort (just way too much rain over very long periods) and at least a screen side walls. Considering it must be totally enclosed with screen it means some sort of foundation and sealed flooring ( plastic would work for the floor ) to be effective.

Using the cheapest of materials is still a considerable expense when building on a decent scale. PVC sheet roof (which I doubt would last more than a few months with the wild winds here), wood framing, cement block knee wall, PVC sheet with gravel or rock flooring and some sort of air moving methods mounts up to substantial costs. On top of that you would need a method of pollenization. Just too much complication for the Ms too manage and we haven't even talked about the technicalities of irrigation, fert. etc.

This would be OK for a 'family' garden type thing but not for a commercial production business. Land here that is suitable for establishing a commercial garden, ie. reasonably flat, access to water, power and road runs from 100K per rai to over 200K per rai. Everyone here thinks you can get rich on land. Maybe so but not from me. Even the banks holding bad paper are out of their skulls with pricing. Two days ago I was offered 1.25 rai on a paved road, "best deal you'll find" I was told by a third party. Price, 210,000 baht.

There is a reason why this area is an orchard community/region, its because that is what does well here. Trees are much more hardy and can withstand the onslaught of bugs etc. I've spent considerable time in some of the orchards and farms that do dragon fruit etc.. These plants are strong and seem to be impervious to leaf miners, beetles, worms and what ever else there is.

A rather long reply but a fitting end to my experimenting with makua, other than a few plants to provide our own needs.

Bt

As mentioned prior, the Gov't center in Makham does bees and honey. I just finished a bottle of honey purchased from them for 150 baht. It was good, not quite like the honey from home (all from apple trees) but good.

I opened another bottle that we got that was "Special" from a guy in Ma Pai that guaranteed it was 'the best'. It was generated from longan orchards. In this case they put two dead bees in each bottle to "keep it fresh". I must say that you could definitely tell the difference, well worth the extra 50 baht per bottle. Great stuff!

Most beekeepers I've seen here do nothing more than pierce the cells and let them drain naturally. These being mostly combs from wild bees. I have never seen anyone here remove honey from frames but would expect they might do the same.

There is one pest that decimates hives here but don't recall what it is. The solution is the design of the hive entrance from what I've read here on other forums. Maybe from Maizefarmer.

Bt

What would your potenial market be for the clapped out used equip.?

bt

The signs in Makham (on route 317) point to a gov't run beekeeping place. Lots of em around the orchards here in the South east.

Honey by the bottle is spectacular at 150 baht per. Not watered at all as is normal elsewhere. They apparently move

hives into the orchard areas during the flowering season for various fruits. Still not enough bees though as a lot of

Thais will hand pollenate such fruits as durian etc.

Bt

Somtham

From the Ms' description.

Bang Po, Soi Prachaw Na lu met , is the best I can come up with as a transliteration.

It is 'across' the river. Most taxi drivers know the area, there are tons of shops in

the area.

Sorry but best I can do.

bt

EDIT: The soi is about 1 Km long and runs between two major streets

There is a soi in Bangkok called Soi Furniture. There are all kinds of wood suppliers along with furniture and several tool shops. I saw bandsaws, tablesaws, planners, joiners, drill presses etc. I was a 'buyer' and there was no mention of any licenses required or notification to any organization.

I have seen several "carpenters", craftsmen in this area using homemade tablesaws etc. Power saws are sold in all the big box stores, again no sign of needing permits etc.

All towns of any size what-so-ever have machine shops, I would imagine they will know where to buy new/used equipment for both wood and metal working.

Bt

cyanide is the chemical of "choice" for Thai fishermen to lazy to net or catch.

Many instances of this occuring on the reefs off the coast.

E. G.

Time for an update on Bt's makua and the BUGS!

We started another 20 plants, along with some tomatoes, round the 1st of April. Lost half of the makua to the rains in late April. Once established in the paper cups they seemed to do pretty well when only exposed to eastern morning sun.

Decided to let em grow until they were just too big for the cups. Ended up they were all in excess of 25 cm in height when I repotted on 1 June.

In the meantime I noted a couple of leaf miner invasions, not to severe but there none the less. Gave them a normal watering using Karate at the prescribed solution rate in early May. Rain rain and more rain, this time they were protected by the eaves of the house so I was out watering during rain storms. The neighbors thought the farang had gone totally ba ba bo bo.

Repotted all in buckets on 1 June, standard potting soil and 20 % buffalo chips and threw in 4 small fish from the local market just to see what happened. The fish (4 small size aomtam type in each bucket along the sides of the bucket about 20 cm down in the soil) idea comes from seeing my dad do it as a child, he used to throw a medium size perch into each hole he placed a tomatoe plant.

Placed the buckets in bright light but not direct sun. Next day they had all been overturned by the puppies next door. They decided they would dig out the fish, yummy. We managed to salvage 9 of the ten plants and watered them and watched them for a couple of days.

Once I was sure they had survived the initial shock of the puppy escapades, I decided it was time to place them in the direct sun. When I went to move the first bucket I was totally surprised by the CLOUD of leaf hoppers that had accumulated on the plants. Must have been thousands of them on the nine plants. Time for more Karate, that was two days ago so will be interested to see over the next couple of days the results of the Karate. There had also been a small infestation of leaf miners, but interestingly the little tunnels terminated quite quickly, Karate at work I suppose.

If the little buggers are still there its time for the Actara. If the Actara doesn't hack it the only resort would be ot build a closed environment. A costly proposition for sure unless it was for small scale growing. The combination of heavy rains and the bugs makes growing delicate plants a difficult proposition here in the fruit orchards.

I am truly appreciative of MF's suggestion to start small and find out 'some' of the issues you face. I would be pulling out the several hairs on my head had I planted a rai or two to start out. I've started real small with a few plants, and progressed through various watering, pesticide, fertilizer routines and kept note of the results. IF I decide to go full time I will have had some basis for making decisions on how to manage the process.

For those of you interested in the organic methods of gardening I recommend you plant, inter crop, makua amongst your valuable plants. The bugs absolutely love the makua, the tomatoes show no signs of leaf miners or leaf hoppers seems the little critters prefer the makua. Plant some makua, whether you need to or not, they are great bug attractors.

Bt

Oh dear, My post wasnt meant to start a feud, come to think of it, I do remember now about you two {MF & Chownah}having differences on insecticides & fertilzer before, I honnestly did a search on the Farming Forum but couldnt find what i needed, I just wondered if there was a good specific one for Papaya, so done a google and came up with names i couldnt find locally,hence the post..

The mrs was very busy at the time and short of taking a tree to the farmers shop i thought id ask here, and you all gave me many choices, thanks for that gentlemen.

As for MFs challenge on Chownah about with or without chemicals, Can anybody imagine that? being in each others pockets for 2/3 months, think they would end up spraying eachother! ...

Perhaps i can take up this challenge for you both? the 9rai PP is more or less seperated by a small access lane, on a 5rai/4rai basis, the irrigation system {low level sprinklers]runs throughout the whole field, it would be easy to convert back to high level sprinklers for this experiment,

Now, Chownah, my holding tank contains 2.300 ltrs water and with 4 big overhead sprinklers this empties in about 25 mins, so what ratio of washing up liquid to a tankfull please,

The only drawback with this method i can see is every time it rains, it would wash off the plants and have to applied again,not a problem as it can be done quickly and easily, but i really dont want to use electricity when the plants have just been naturally watered,this would take place on the 5rai, comments please..

Mf, Your post suggests use a watering can and rose spray round the base of tree, these sachets i bought dilute 1 in 10ltrs water, {actara}, now would this be a quick swirl round the base or a 3 sec burst on base of tree? I can imagine as Tim207 says, this then is inside of leaves,stem ect and will stay there come rain or shine, also is this safe to use on the intercropping chillies,rubber trees,water melon,makua,winged beans ect, Slapout also mentioned worms in sweetcorn, would it slso prevent this? as we have just planted about 3rai amongst the Tamarind and Mango trees.

In the next 3 days we will be planting out 1500 new PP plants, at the moment, they are about 3 inches high, and it seems aphids and mites are prevalant just now, what would be the best way to protect these young plants against insects ect, This is a general question for anybody,

Thankyou all for taking the time to read this and as usual ideas and comments gratefully recieved, Thanks, Lickey.

Lickey, nice proposal and very generous to offer your fields as a test. Plomlem encounterd from the git-go is that these little critters don't hang out on the tops of the leaves.. Yep, they hide, the little devils, on the underside of the leaf where they can easily get at the veins (where the goodies are) of the leaf.

Top spraying won't be effective I'm afraid. I tried the soap with the makua I was growing, used a hand sprayer and lifted every leaf to get at the underside. Sadly I had to do it every two days, either they are tough little critters or I am swarmed by them (which I don't doubt at all).

With that said, I've found the perfect organic pest control for my tomatoes. Intermingle makua with them and the bugs go for the makua every single time... No kidding it works! Twice now and the effect is the same, they really love my makua to the disdain of my maters.

Now that is something Chownah can try, it really works. There is something about fresh tender makua leaves that just draws the little critters. Leaf hoppers, leaf miners, aphids and beetles all prefer my makua to the tomatoes. All plants of the same age have been treated exactly alike, the latest batch got some Karate just before replanting, same fertilizer and the same watering routine across the board as well as the same potting soil mixed with the same buffalo chips. GO Figure.

Bt

^ In the paragraph directly above the mention of the pests - mites - there is a reference to disease carrying aphids and how to get rid of them.

Makes me think they know the difference between mites and aphids. A direct reference to mites as a pest would seem to indicate they are just that an "insect pest".

Bt

Does anyone have any actual experience in exporting vegetables or spices to Europe or North America?

Btate

A couple of observations from someone living in an area that is heavily populated with rubber orchards.

I travel throughout the region a LOT, looking at property and enjoying my hobby photographing wildlife. You seldom see any plots of producing rubber that are less than 8 - 10 rai. Most in this area are 20+ rai. Occasionally you will see a small plot of 1 or 2 rai that folks have thrown down some rubber just to make the land productive with some type of crop, generally on hilly terrain.

Planting commercially targeted rubber it is just not feasable to plant less than the above parcel sizes. That means that as a minimum you will be irrigating 8 - 10 rai and generally a lot more, a substantial capital outlay at the start of an orchard.

You won't find many plots that are flat enough to flood irrigate, such as a paddi field. These types of land parcels are about 100% fruit orchards. This is not a comment on flood irrigatioin but rather the land configurations.

I have seen rubber planted on the top of long furrows that would allow ditch irrigation if you had the water source. I've never seen it in practice, and most of those I've seen are in low lying areas where it might be an attempt to keep the young trees feet dry, in rainy season, rather than irrigating them.

Most rubber parcels are hillside plantings so you do have a problem with 'head' depending on where your water source is. These parcels tend to be very irregular in topographic sense with many gullies etc. Hard to lay pipe in such terrain, even flexible tubing needs to be staked or held in some fashion.

The government has changed its planting regimine (at least here) so that rubber is no longer planted in 'lines' but rather curves fitted to the contour of the land. (This from personal experience with 17 rai of new rubber going in on a hill top.)

Well maintained rubber orchards require weeding and grass cutting, generally done by tractor or gas powered weed whacker blades. A potential problem with upkeep of your irrigation system.

All small issues to be sure but, when contemplating irrigation of rubber all the "little" things add up quickly. I am not sure a case can be made for the cost benefit of irrigating rubber. Having seen thousands of rai of rubber I don't recall seeing one rai that was irrigated. Some of these folks are really smart and get every ounce of latex possible from thier trees, if this was a major benefit I would think some of them would have at least tried it.

I have seen however, a tractor or 4 wheel drive pick-up with tanks watering really young trees when they are planted during the dry season. If planted just prior to or at the beginning of the rainy season they get established quite well.

SAP

You might want to contact Mahidol University or the Rubber Research Institute of Thailand for definitive answeres to the productivity of irrigating rubber.

Bt

Controversy?

I don't think so, it seems we are all "Preaching to the Choir" in the singular respect of think before you act.

Sadly, the stereo-typical viewpoint that all bar-girls are bad is prevelant throughtout falangville. Without regard to how or why, the jokes and snide remarks continue by the unknowing. Yes, there are surely 'bad' girls and not only in the bars. What percentage of the ladies working at Central or The Emporium have an 'eye' out for a falang that will provide them security? Please don't be naive about the well dressed fully made up service person that is so helpful in your purchases.

A recent article spoke about the percentage of GNP (10%) generated by agriculture, being way out of whack with the percentage of the population (60%) directly or indirectly involved in the sector. Odds are that ANY Thai woman you meet is connected to the Ag. industry. The most secure feeling they can have is a 'plot' and a home.

It becomes natural for the woman to return to her roots and either try and help the family survive or to establish a solid base for her own old age. The starry eyed falang is only too eager to help.

Investing in Ag. industry via land, animals etc. etc. is an expensive proposition. Much more so than some of the other 'ideas' to generate income. Without a good working knowledge it is disastrous for most. The idea of setting up a farm and letting the family and friends run it, work it, without direct involvement is ludicrous. Similar to running a good restaurant or bar, if the owner isn't on the premises when the doors are open, the doors will be closed shortly. If expectations are not set properly it is all bound to end in tears.

Having spent several summers hauling milk pails, feeding calves, cutting and baling hay and chopping corn silage I have had some exposure to the cow industry. Would I go out and start a dairy farm? No way, as I really don't have the background in animal husbandry that is required. I would surely blow any investment I made. Again, the starry eye falang that has had minimal exposure to farming might just do so.

Would I consider a veggie based situation? Yes, I like plants and have grown my own veggies for years, not in this climate, but there is an amount of knowledge that is transferrable. The investment in an income producing crop farm is not as intensive as dealing with animals (cows, pigs, buffalo, chickens etc.). THe total amount of risk is also less if things go stupid on me.

How many times on this thread have you seen something approximating the following: "... my Thai wife/GF... land and what is the best crop/product ..... " or " ... my Thai wife/GF family wants to buy (animals)..... " or "...how much do buffalo/cows/sheep.... cost?". Without out a clue, these folks are getting into the Ag. business, for one reason or another. MF and Khonwan, along with others, have more often than not given astute advice by asking the questions that expose a total lack of basic knowledge by the poster. Hopefully they take the hint.

MF, your actual scenario points out the worst case and should be considered by all.

Khonwan, your experience is the best case and should be considered by all.

Neither is wrong and both have been here many years and have the benefit of observing in person the varieties of situations that arise around this subject. Their viewpoints should be taken as local knowledge.

I can personally specify two situations I'm currently aware of right within my neighborhood, one will end in tears and lawyers etc. the other I expect to be stable and loving until one of them dies.

A controversial issue, no, but surely a sensitive one.

Rgds

Bt

I hesitate to post on this subject, but do feel I have something to add.

MF and SAP have excellent points of view as well as does Khonwan. I have lived full time here since 1999 and for 5 years prior to that I was partying in Patong every 8th or 9th weekend.

The numbers of occasions where the ‘little head’ out paced the big head of friends and acquaintances causing loss of savings, income etc. are too numerous to mention. Whether it was the ‘farm’, bar beer, beauty saloon or motor bike rentals the stories are remarkably similar.

When my current partner and I decided to get together it was with a great deal of discussion and setting of limits and goals. Yes, she has a checkered past, she is also an excellent chef. I also have a checkered past, after living and playing in Patong, Bangers and Udon, what single guy wouldn’t?

Expectations were established by both as to what we wanted out of life and how we should go about getting it.

I have a fair fixed income that we can live on quite comfortably anywhere in Thailand. The one rule about the income is I will not touch the principal that allows us that level of monthly income. No big cash outlays for land, car, houses etc., the one exception is major medical expense. The situation is such that as long as we can use the monthly income we can do what we want. Property has come up, since we both would like our own spot to establish ourselves. A lease is OK with me and saving for land is OK too.

We have only one major yearly expense, the tuition for a private school for her daughter. I believe this to be the best investment I can make in Thailand. Soon enough that will turn into college tuition hopefully.

These expectations were set in stone early on in our relationship. We are not a Winter and Spring relationship but rather a Fall, Summer one. Both of us know the value of trust and respect. There are now, nor were ever, any stars in our eyes, not to say that there is no emotional involvement, but we really like each other and have fun.

In over two years we’ve never raised our voices in disagreement, she doesn’t do the Thai soap opera thing and I don’t do the know-it-all falang thing.

Its all about knowing whom your dealing with, setting expectations and getting to know the real person. Not something you can do as an occasional visitor or from a long distance or in a week or month or two. At least that’s what I think.

To date I've not been asked for one satang from any of the family. They do quiet well for Thai farmers and are divirsified between rubber and fruit. They manage money well and there isn't one new pickup in the bunch.

Yep she is an X bar girl, so what. She was making money sending her daughter to school and I was pissing it away on the same exercise. Who is right and who is wrong. Takes a better man than me to tell the difference.

AND yes, if I were to meet her in my hometown I would be inclined the same way. Good people are hard to come by in any circumstance. Being married twice ( one great one horrible) I have a point of reference for myself.

Set expectations, be honest and live with respect for the other.

Rgds

Bt

EDIT: I forgot to mention that she is a 'born' farmer, loves getting her fingernails dirty as does her daughter. So yes, we are looking at agriculture opportunities. Besides I miss my summers on my uncle's farm chasing cows and throwing chickens.

Went to look at a piece of property yesterday afternoon between showers, ( another 1.5 inches of rain over the last 24 hours) and found these growing wild in a field of tall grass and weeds. Obviously not cared for at all. So it bodes well for a cultivated breed it seems.

They are softer than you would expect but have no idea of taste, texture etc. 10 + rai, mostly mangosteen and longan with about 3 rai of grass and weeds, with year around water on the property. The house is a typical Thai raised style that can be upgraded quite easily. The main building is make of teak so its worth something.

The property is fenced and has a Chanote so will check it out further. Asking is 1.1 MM baht. We'll see.

Bt

Thanks for the advice & particularly the link,

So let me check this to make sure I've got it 100% correct.

Its saying, take 6 grams of Actara, put it in 1 liter of water & give that 1 liter to 1 tree. Correct ?

How many applications should I make before flowering starts ?

ta

I've seen no information on multiple applications, other than one remark that "multiple applications may be needed in areas of heavy infestation.....". This was not specifically mentioned on the permit for mango. Somewhere else I do recall reading that you should not use within a 180 day window prior to flowering. Don't take that to the bank as I can't find it right now.

EDIT: MF is correct, as they recommend if using drippers to apply directly underneath the dripper to insure lots of water to spread it out.

Bt

Pond Life

After yesterday's admonition on Actara use by MF I went and found everything I could about its use. I came across this 'new' application for mango trees. It describes exactly how to use and gives all the info you need. Its two PDF pages so easy to print.

http://www.syngenta.com.au/Content/Product...00%20Permit.pdf

As it turns out I'm not going to use it due to the closeness of water (I'm a solid 9 iron from 4 farm ponds) and I'm basically only about two meters above the ground water. Run off and overspray here would be a cause for real concern.

Bt

It seems to be part of Thai culture,

If a little bit is good, then alot must be even better,

& a truck full must be bloody fantastic.

It's not just Thai people....a westerner's reaction here on the forum when talking about the bugs in Thailand was, "These guys are going to get a heavy dose of [name of pesticide omitted].............."

Nothing like lifting a "tongue-in-cheek" comment totally out of context eh?

For those that haven't read, I've been battling a myriad of 'bugs' here in Chantaburi. You name it and I've probably got them within a 100 meters or so: aphids, leaf hopper, (two types), beetles, night beetles, leaf miners etc. etc. Chownah and I do not see eye to eye on his methods of pest control out in the middle of the jungle/fruit orchards. His holistic methods just don't hack it if you want to do anything other than home garden variety veggies.

An example is leaf miners. Now there are probalby two dozen leaf miner type insects. (These guys lay eggs inside the leaf and the 'eggs' hatch and eat just the inside until they are big enough to bust out. Leaving nice little random tunnels in the leaf that sap its strength and eventually make that leaf useless." I did quite a bit of research on these pesky critters and could find only two "natural" solutions. The first was to buy 250 parasitic wasps ( would work well in a closed environment I'm sure but in the middle of fruit orchards???? Cost was $110 USD, then try and get a recognized pest through the Thai customs... .duh.... the other was to purchase specialized (read genetically modified) nematodes.... not.

So the crux is that I've been battling pests. OK so I made a comment re. the insecticide. I've also done a fair amount of research on the insecticide I targeted. Turns out that I'll probalby forgo that until I've reached production stages of growth. Just too much hassle and risk for a few plants. I'll go with another that is less suseptible to mistakes while I'm learning.

So, Chownah if you want to take everything I write verbatim... go jump in a klong

Bt

Actara is 100% safe if the instructions are followed - don;t be fooled by the litle amount of Actara that has to be applied - you'll think, surely it can't be that little? - well, I assure you it is.

MF

Finally found the Actara!.... Comes in individual packets for us small fry which is good at this stage. Actara 25 WG, whatever that means in 2 gram packets.

With your admonition of not using too much I'm curious if the instructions I got from the vendor are correct. He claims one packet in a big bucket (paint pail) is the correct mix.

Would like your input as to whether this is your recco.

Bt

Bit of an observation for you:

MF's style of using buckets properly drained is worth following. Wed I left for Bangers at 10 AM and returned yesterday at 3:30 PM. In the interim we had about 3 - 3.5 inches of rain. The couple of makua plants drained as advertised. On the other hand I've also planted some tomatoes, basically in the black cheapo pots you find everywhere. These pots have large drain facility in the bases.

Two of my tomatoes had about 2 inches of standing water on top of the soil when I returned. I use the same basica regimine when potting both plants, a handful of 3/4" crush in the bottom of the pot then the soil and manure mix. The bottom drain holes plug, so will 'drill' side drains.

I also noted that one of the makua was severely damaged by something heating holes in the leaves. No sign of the critter responsible. The plethora of bugs here continues to amaze. With a constant breeze and the multitude of differing fruits around it is easy to see how they migrate from one food source to another.

I keep getting comments on how good the makua are from family members. I do know they taste great in the curry the Ms. makes, maybe its just my pride... or maybe because they are straight from the plant, that makes the taste better.

The current batch of starters survived under my makshift shelter, so that's a plus for me...... These guys are going to get a heavy dose of Actara. Then we'll see who gets to 'eat' the makua.

Bt