btate

just another 'star' for MF's idea of planting in buckets.. No hoeing (no Mr. Imus), reduced damages from weeding with a machine, a convenient method of moisture measurement, less water using a drip system, less soil born insects and disease. etc. etc.

I just found a source nearby for 17 liter black pails for 35 baht new. I bought a few to see how they work, if OK I can probably reduce that cost with negotiation.

Bt

EDIT: BTW thanks for the link

Why would you think an investment in something you know nothing about is a valid excercise?

There is NO easy money in rubber, lessons learned from my own close observation. Got 35 years and lots of cash to throw into rubber in the meantime, you might, might see a return.

Bt

Pond Life

Most of the family, tomatoes, eggplants, potates, have root structure near the surface. Hoeing cuts or disturbs these near surface roots. A couple of things can happen, diseases entering through a damaged root, loss of nutrient due to root damage and as one member found out, after someone hoed around his plants, they can fall over from lack of support.

Ozzydom

What a neat idea. I've been fooling around with some sheet plastic to prevent flooding of my starters. (we got over two inches of rain in the last 48 hours, some T-storms and a period of several hours of steady rain. How do I know this? I've got a tub that I mix dirt in that sits beside my tomatoes, this morning it had approx. two inches of water in it. Admitedly a crude rain gauge but works for me.

On another note: this morning on checking the starters I found one makua with leaf miners at work

I am very glad I started really small, I would be thoroughly depressed If I had several hundred plants going.

Pond Life

I can't help much with the soil issue other than maybe add more sand, wood shavings etc.

Why would you want to start Durian????? Seedlings are readily available for peanuts in any area that supports durian growth. This would be an extra long project to "fruition"

OK a couple of points.

In the original post where I "mentioned" I had come across some information re. watering and the uptake of calcium I erred in one respect. Night watering is not recommended, however early evening watering is.

Night watering 'might' cause damage via a fungus. This is NOT due to the water itself and overlapping leaves but rather night bugs carrying a fungus landing to drink and transferring the fungus to the plant. If you water in the early evening most water on the leaves will evaporate. However since we are not talking sprinkler irrigation it does not apply to my situation.

I think I also mentioned that Tomatoes, eggplant and potatoes all come from the same family. I assume since they are in the same family their physiology is very similar. Since there is a dearth of information re. makua I look at the tomatoe as a 1st cousin and look at tomato problems with the idea of transferring the germain info to growing makua. Yes, I'm also doing tomatoes.

Below I've pasted some exerpts from an article published by Utah State University Extension. The authors are: Sherman V. Thompson / Extension Plant Pathologist and Scott C. Ockey / Plant Disease Diagnostician.

In discussing Blossom End Rot ONE of the potential causes is calcium deficiency. They had this to say about it.

"During the day, the pores on the leaves are open and water transpires from them drawing sap into the leaves. Since the fruit do not lose much water by transpiration, they receive little of the calcium-containing sap. At night, the leaf pores close, root pressure forces sap into the plant, and the developing fruit get their share of calcium and other nutrients. If the plant is water stressed at night, the system fails and the fruit receive very little calcium, causing blossom-end rot."

In a section of controls they mention " Do not allow plants to be water stressed at night. "

I water in the evenings out of habit I guess. I thought it was the right thing to do and now with some scientific data backing me up I will continue. The whole idea of fruits not losing water as leaves do during the day makes sense to me. If watering at a time the roots can use the pressure makes for less blotched, split and ugly fruit, I'm all for it.

This is not the only control for blossom end rot, hoeing, overwatering and over fertilizing are also a problem. I keyed on the watering idea as useful for anyone trying to get a vegetable producing to a commercial level. Especially, as most of us have to do during dry season, we are irrigating via some method.

Rgds

Bt

Chownah

Firstly the emoticon of 'rolling eyes' was as close as I could come to "tongue in cheek" if you know what that means. Since this forum doesn't have a 'sarcasm' emitcon it was close, whatever. AND there are a ton of options.

I think you took my comment out of context re. organic farming being doomed from the start, please read the previous part of the sentence and the following sentence as well. Besides, I believe that on another post I told you that IF and WHEN I do a greenhouse then it is practical to do organic. As I mentioned, it is doable with a substantial capital outlay.

As for doing a billion tons of rice in the USA, it is apples and oranges as far as I'm concerned. The USA experience is a totally different game. They do not, nor do you I suppose - face the incredible amount of bugs that I do living in the middle of Thailand's fruit basket we all have different enemies in this regard. As I recall your more to the north, maybe I'm wrong in this.

Yes, I am NOT an expert on organic farming although I DO know a fair amount and am always learning more since I know of a couple of markets o'seas that I could benefit from in terms of crop production.

I am as aware as the next person when it comes to my plants, be it orchids or veggies. When I spray several days with a soap solution and still have aphics, then my mind says " dumb a find another solution". Pretty simple really, try it and if it doesn't work, bag it. I'm not about to spend any more time on trying to perfect a system that is questionable, in my specific circumstance, to begin with.

My first goal is to see if I can grow a couple of products that are viable commercially. That comes first. If I find/feel that I can, then and only then, will I even begin to look at alternative methods. If I can't grow it using the best available technologies then why bother with alternatives?

As for watering, the assumptioni is: you need to water since there is not enough moisture to fulfill the needs of the target plant. I don't recall saying that you needed to water at the 'same time every day' if that's your inference that's OK too. I did mention that I had come across information regarding the time of day and the reasons why. That one you can surely find on the net if you choose to. As for irrigating at the same time every day it is only logical that if your testing for water retention and keeping records you need some stabilility in recording the times you test and the time you water, if for no other reason than accuracy of your records so your not biasing your info with too many variables. Garbage in Garbage out STS

I know, as all of us that frequent this forum, that you are a great advocate of organic farming. That's good, we should all be aware of alternatives. However, organic farming is a time consuming art form, in my view, that does not address my basic goal of seeing if I can grow something with killing it along the way. BTW have lost half of the first 'test' of makua plants. Lost em due to stupidity and NOT following some of MF's advice. I've had vegetable gardens all over the US and yes, organic basically with one exception that being dusting powder for the tomatoes. Thailand is a totally differnet ball of wax, having tried several times to get tomatoes to grow using all the old standby tricks and failing miserably. Time to search out some advice, AND thats' how I found this thread. In growing things one shoe does not fit all.

If you really want to see some electronic food fights check any orchid thread. There are as many ways to grow orchids as there are people that grow them... lolol

Rgds

Bt

Chownah

Since all my plants are basically in "watch me grow" stages I've lots of time on my hands to do what one does here. Search the net.

So I figured I would give you a hand in finding 'anywhere that mentions the importance of watering.....'

Google 'tomato cracking' and on the first page you will find several references to the impact of watering on tomato plants.

Tomato, eggplant and potato are all members of the Solanumae (Sp?) family. Growing requirements are all similar.

Rgds

Bt

^ chownah, are you trolling, or just trying to cause confusion? Nowhere in any post I've made on either tomatoes or makua have I even mentioned irrigation by sprinkling. To me its an awful waste of water, even in Thailand.

The only time I use airborne irrigation is when caring for my orchids. All other is by direct method, basically with a watering can at this stage and eventually it will be by drip system.

"I'm not sure how important keeping a regular watering schedule is for plants. As long as the soil has enough moisture I don't think it matters to the plant if the water is applied at regular intervals or not. I've never read anywhere that this is important and would appreciate if anyone has a link that talks about this."

I am not about to go back through the hundreds of links I've read to find them, but, did find several (one might have been the University of Texas?) references to watering and its effects. The idea of the calcium did come from a tomato site though. I think the same site gave the info on water regimines. Google under 'tomato problems' or something such. Be forwwarned that the info is there and it may take you hours to find it.

"This is a bigger issue for those growing vegetables organically than it is for those using chemicals to control diseases."

With this limited test of a few tomatoes and makua I do see that any attempt at organic methods for commercial purposes is basically doomed from the start, without intense capital outlays at the very beginning.

The plethora of bugs and critters available here to 'work' on your plants is indeterminate. In a lot of instances an available remedy for specific bugs won't work on all species of plants and is often disastrous in some cases. I am thinking of tobacco juice as one example. It is renowned as a bug killer/bug rejecting solution. It does however kill tomato plants and egg plants. Another would be using soapy water to get rid of aphids, as this would be a daily task, can you imagine sprayiing under the leaves of your makua on any large scale such as a rai of makua (approx. 700 plants)?

Without a wide array of home remedies or a totally isolated growing environment (think greenhouse with air locks) growing much more than the family can consume is just too wieldy a process to be commercially viable.

Such is my perspective anyway.

Rgds

Bt

Well, with MF's comment about the 'green bastard' being a type of aphid I went searching. Shoulda known, I just can't get enough of this 'farming' stuff. Its been awhile since I spent summers on a farm and have always missed it.

I spent several hours today researching Leaf Hoppers and aphids. Thank God for the internet, I can't imagine what it would take in a regular library. I found that I have possibly two different types of leaf hoppers, or I have an adult and immature family.

What they are is really of little significance other than they are leaf hoppers. Leaf hoppers don't eat the leaves like aphids (thier distant cousins), they suck the sap from the veins of the leaf. Hence I could see no damage to the plants upon cursory examination.

They do however drain the plants energy by sucking the life giving sap in the veins of the leaf. Maybe small but if your contemplating this as a business it will effect your production I'm sure.

I checked my tomato plants as well and guess what, there they were! I've already fought off an attack by leaf miners and thought I was clear....

Nope, it seems that there is an abundance of bugs here in the jungle. I'm surrounded by thousand and thousands of fruit trees and rubber trees. Can you think of a better habitat for bugs.. nope. Its also the reason I've got a lot of different butterflies around. Citrus it seems brings bugs and critters.

I"ve been using a local Thai systemic pesticide that took fine care of the aphids and leaf miners but these leaf hoppers are still here. So, its off to the agri store for some Actara or Karate w Zeon. I WILL win this fight!

One other subject. I am not a botanist or a biology expert at all but it seems that consistent watering at night is very important to the life of the plant. Apparently during the day when the plant is 'growing' the pores of the leaf are open. At night the pores close entrapping the calcium that has been generated during the day. The watering at night allows the system to 'digest' and transport the calcium through the leaves and fruits. Without sufficient water in the evening this function is inhibited somewhat and can result in Bud Rot, Scabs and distorted or split fruit.

It appears that consistant watering regimes are really important if you want defect free fruit.

Man, I never thought I would get this deep when I first starting reading this thread.... I didn't even know what makua was

Bt

Cool. look forward to meeting you. If I can't find the stuff I'll let you know. No sense in carrying stuff around if you don't need to. I would appreciate some seeds from East West if you've got extra laying around. A package of the Tiger if you have them.

Tiger seems to bring a premium here in the local market and have yet to see anthing other than the F1 from East West here.

Rgds

bt

Btate

You done exactly what I said - that's real healthy makua plant you have there: this stresses the importance of getting the plant off to a good start (leave it open to pest damage while it grows and it becomes difficult to correct the damage - the only way - as said, trim it all back and start again).

U using the insecticide I recomended?

I'm back home Saturday (mid-day - can;t wait) - need a week or 2 to get back into routine and then if it's okay by you I'll come by your place sometime last week April for a few hours (?).

That little green bastard under the leaf - type of aphid (sucking insect) hiding from the sun and heat - take a torch out at night time and you'll find him and his buddies chewing away on both sides of the leaves. If you have been watering with Actara you'll find none on the plant - infact you should find nothing at all -exceot the odd lost soul, who'll have his fate sealed within a few hours of taking the first bite of any part of the palnt.

MF

No I have not been using the 'recommended' insecticide... I've been all over this area and so far have been unable to find either... see below... that is about to change.

I think you've mistaken me for Somtham ???? Maybe. To stop by my place for a few hours would be a two day trip for ya. I'm in Makham outside Chantaburi. You are more than welcome though if you insist... lol

As for that little green bastard, I check daily and find no sign of munching. I've looked at a number of sites and am beginning to think its some sort of leaf hopper.. don't know if they do damage at all. NO aphids once I started using an insecticide that enters through the roots.

As I mentioned I've looked extensively for Karate/Proclaim/Actara without a lot of luck. I did find one dealer in Chantaburi town that had something by Syngenta but didn't buy since Syngenta makes a ton of products and wasn't sure.

Now I find this:

After pulling up the Thai site and the Aussie Site, side by side, I managed to find the Thai labels.

Top left..... Karate w Zeon

Top right..... Actara

Middle left...... Karate

Middle right...... Match 050

Bottom left....... Proclaiim

Bottom right..... Curacron

Have no idea what Match 050 or Curacron are nor do I care but thought if others in Thailand were looking the label designs might help.

Will find one of them on the next trip to town. I know that I saw the Karate w Zeon in one store at least.

Glad to have you back!

Bt

EDIT: Unecessary attachment, don't know how it got there... its the Karate label info

KARATE_WITH_ZEON_TECHNOLOGY_INSECTICIDE_Label.pdf

Hmmm didn't realize that Down Around My Navel was a bad word...

bt

###### man, thought you tired of "hand holding" us idiots.

Glad to hear all is well and your headed home.

bt

Interesting fact: 49% of Thai labor force is agriculture.

Recent headlines:

Farmers protest to gov't to bail them out of "NON agro debt"

Price of hogs at slaughter 36 -39 baht per kilo; price to raise... 42 baht

Several hundred thoushand Rai of 2nd crop rice lost; oops poor planning for drought

Drought in NE

Hail and storms destroy.... (two cases in rural communities)

Southern rubber cutters slain.....

And on and on. As an agricultural economy there are definitely hard times ahead.

Bt

Our makua plants have come back and are thriving. Our original customer is still offering B1/kg. My wife is bagging about 700g/bag and the fish customer is selling the bags from the back of her truck for B5. She says they are hard to sell as everybody has there own makua plants growing for home use.

We are now planting the rest of the garden with chiles which dried are selling for B140-150/kg.

rgds

Odd pricing, I've been in both Lotus/Tesco and Macro within the last week or so.

Makua was going for between 20 and 25 baht / kilo and looked like crap. Brown

leaves and spotted all over.

You may be facing a localized problem in pricing. Still, not good for you. Maybe just

pick the flowers as MF suggests and see what the market does in your area.

Bt

/quote]

It sounds like a great property. I especialy like the idea of a deck by the fish pond. I hope it works out for you. If you get it I will bring the beer and we can sit on the deck fishing while discussing the hectic life of makhua farming.

Who knows what the future brings. I'm staying totally out of it other than supplying payments... lol

I wouldn't mind staying where I'm at but then........

Bt

Hmmmm wondering if I'm the only one still interested in this subject.

I am still very much interested. I have been back in the US for a couple of days and have not had time to post pics yet. My results are coming when I get acclimated. The forcast calls for possible snow tomorrow, that isn't helping my adjustment very much.

Tim

As I write this on Wed. afternoon we are getting our ass kicked AGAIN with a wicked

T- Storm... I'm ready this time though, No more drowning starters... lol

Have come across an interesting piece of property. 8 rai planted with mangosteen and longan. Not far from

the village. Has a 30 x 50 meter pond that has been dug to 11 meters. Pond is fed by ground water and

three... that's right, three artesian wells. Has a house that is wild and a two storey shop and all types of out

buildings. House is done first class throughout with hardwood floors, built-in book cases, desks and a 9 x 9

meter kitchen. All windows are aluminum sliders that are tinted. A nice deck and fish pond under a trellis.

About a rai of land that could easily be converted to makua without disturbing the orchard too

much. Price is 2.7MM baht but he's in trouble I know.

The ms is looking at a purchase. The freakkin house alone on a 1/2 rai would go for 5/6 MM in Chantaburi town.

Hope the trip was uneventful.

Bt

Hmmmm wondering if I'm the only one still interested in this subject.

Maybe we are all waiting for MF's return to the forum.

These pictures today show the progress of the "whacked" plant.

Looks pretty decent to me. Lots of flowers showing even though they don't show

up in the photos very well.

This pix shows some of the results after using a systemic pesticide and reducing

water volume in the plants in buckets.

No evidence of bud rot or other problems.

bt

If this is covered by a previous thread I apologise, last month I bought russi seeds from our local shop in Bandung, Udon and not one blade of glass appeared in spite of repeated watering. Duff seeds, and it's not the first time it's happenend at that shop.

Does anyone have a list of reliable seed suppliers in Thailand?

yours,

bannork.

East WEst Seed co ( has a web site) good quality veggies seeds but don't know about grasses...

Good Luck

Bt

UPDATE

As Maize Farmer suggested in an earlier post, I whacked one of the plants right down to the bone on Mar. 13. All that was left was the base stalk - about the size of my little finger - and two or three 'branches. No leavese were left on the plant.

It looked kinda sickly, with just the stalk sticking up out of the pail. Today, it has fully leafed out again and there are flower buds starting. It looks really strong and healthy. So much so that I'm seriously thinking of whacking the rest back.

The systemic pesticide is doing its thing. Not a single sign of damage to any of the new tender leaves.

I'm also being very careful with the watering, as I mentioned earlier I was way overdoing it with a little more than a liter of water twice a day. Now its a liter a day in the evening. The wood chip mulch is really doing a job holding moisture in the bucket. It is also very humid here and afternoon showers often negate the need to water at all.

One other factor in the watering that just came to mind is that I didn't use just any old dirt when I was filling the pails. Rather I put about 2/3 of a bag of potting soil, and added about 25% dried manure. Possible that combo hold water better than regular old dirt???

Basically lost all my other starter plants, only a few days old, due to severe weather and flooding. When it rains here it comes down in buckets full. New starters are now in a non-flood setup.... Learn something new all the time when trying to grow stuff.

I think if I ever get to the point of doing this on a large scale, a greenhouse is the answer. That way you can absolutely control the environment, takes a lot of the guess work out of it.

This has been a great project to learn about raising veggies here. From finding pails, to locating herbicides and fertilizers and dealing with local weather conditions, its something new all the time. MF was correct in stating that starting out smallish will let you learn without too much pain. AND I haven't yet dealt with fuzzy catepillars or beetles

Bt

I forgot. Someone mentioned peppers, chillies.

In Florida I grew the plants in the soil in a bright area of the garden, but, in in-direct sun. Never in direct sun. I grew very large green bell peppers. Red and yellow one too. For my chillies I planted them in direct sun. I plan to try them in in-direct sun here in Thailand. I will plant my first garden in Thailand this year, so, please give me all the advise you want - I need it. Thanks guys.

Plant your garden now if you've got access to water... no sense waiting as there

really isn't a growing season for veggies here other than wet and dry.

IF you get good at Bell Peppers we'll all be listening to your advise. Can't get

them to grow worth a ######.

Like the Idea of north south for the tomatoes, I use 40% shade netting and will

let you know how it works. Of course i'm a little behind as I lost most of my

starter plants last week in a major T storm... starters don't do well in 8 inches of

water I'm afraid.

Bt

Nope, Chantaburi right in T-Storm alley it appears.. 4th or 5th in two weeks, all pretty severe but this one was a nut buster.

Will assess the totals tomorrow, maybe can salvage a few...

Got lots of cups, seeds and potting soil...

bt

Have you hooked up with Tim207 yet? He's also in Chantaburi and doing the same makua/chile experiment.

rgds

We've hooked up via PM and I gave him my # as he travels within a half Km quite a bit. Haven't heard from him and he hasn't posted in some time.

Bt

Update: somehow the mango flowers got pollinated anyway (other insects, silent bees, ...).

Limgling - you're very lucky. We have a tree that we guess is 10 years old plus. Last month we had a bazillion, maybe more, flowers. Now we have a total of 3 pieces of fruit. :-(

Maybe next year it will do better after a severe pruning!!

rgds

Somtham, the vagaries of mother nature continue to 'mess' with us. I have 4 HUGE mango trees on this land. Never ever been pruned that I can tell. Some of the fruit is so high you can't get at it with two bamboo poles... All the trees are loaded even though I didn't notice any flowers or bees. Maybe just paying attention...

Looks like I lost all my Makua starters this afternoon along with about 20 tomato starters that were ready to replant. Bummer, hel_l of T-storm ran through here for about an hour, flooded out all the starter trays.... oh, well got plenty of time on my hands.

bt

Bummer on the storm. You must be in Isaan. It's headed our way but the wife says it will miss us to the north. I hope so. Happened to us a few weeks ago but the plants are starting to make a recovery. I spent all of today pounding stakes in, nice wood-mai makah, stringing plants and weedwacking. I figure I have another week or so to get things back into shape. Chiles are still good at B150/kg dried and we are now getting B10 for the makuas.

Do some more starts and hang on.

rgds

Nope, Chantaburi right in T-Storm alley it appears.. 4th or 5th in two weeks, all pretty severe but this one was a nut buster.

Will assess the totals tomorrow, maybe can salvage a few...

Got lots of cups, seeds and potting soil...

bt

We haven't seem MF for awhile now. Hope he hasn't suffered a set back of some type.

Hopefully he's back on the farm and getting caught up with everything.

Bt

Update: somehow the mango flowers got pollinated anyway (other insects, silent bees, ...).

Limgling - you're very lucky. We have a tree that we guess is 10 years old plus. Last month we had a bazillion, maybe more, flowers. Now we have a total of 3 pieces of fruit. :-(

Maybe next year it will do better after a severe pruning!!

rgds

Somtham, the vagaries of mother nature continue to 'mess' with us. I have 4 HUGE mango trees on this land. Never ever been pruned that I can tell. Some of the fruit is so high you can't get at it with two bamboo poles... All the trees are loaded even though I didn't notice any flowers or bees. Maybe just paying attention...

Looks like I lost all my Makua starters this afternoon along with about 20 tomato starters that were ready to replant. Bummer, hel_l of T-storm ran through here for about an hour, flooded out all the starter trays.... oh, well got plenty of time on my hands.

bt