tgeezer

On 7/31/2020 at 9:18 AM, JHicks said:

 

2 hours ago, JHicks said:

 

Maybe they mean that although it is a Thai word, it has come to be used in an English way. Compare the last bullet point below:

 

ประโยคภาษาอังกฤษมาใช้ (เขามาสาย- เขามาช้า / เขาพลาดรถไฟ-เขามาไม่ทัน
รถไฟ / ในอนาคตอันใกล้-ในไม่ช้า/ เขาอยู่ในเครื่องแบบ-เขาแต่งเครื่องแบบ)

Now we have to try to see how those sentences would be dealt with in Thai ! 
For example  พลาด cannot be the transitive verb "miss"  ไม่ตรงที่หมาย ในลักษณะเช่น เพลียนไป เลี่ยงไป หรือไกลไป because it would appear to be intransitive. 

Sorry if I confused you, I used the word import to show that the meaning was incorporated into Thai. I have the book now and see that I should have said that it was, as with other words, Revolution, television, architect, democracy etc. coined for the reason, here I copy; กมารบัญญัติศัพท์ขึ้นใช้ในวงการต่าง ๆ . 

The evolution of the language might be interesting to study but I am sure that there would be a great deal of controversy in it. I certainly wouldn't want to study it in English.  I have a ม. 5 book here in England which describes ประสบการณ์ as an English import which shows how much Thai has changed. Learning that has put me off the word in favour of variations around เคย ชิน or เชี่ยวชาญ, more vague but I am sure a Thai would understand.  Dialects are probably where authentic Thai is to be found but I haven't tried to find it. บ or บ่ is in the dictionary eg. บแรง as ไม่มีกำลัง ไม่ไหว and I can imagine it to be quite common in spite of being labelled โบราณ in the dictionary. 
 

5 hours ago, JHicks said:

 

I was trying to capture the family resemblance between เอีย เอือ and อัว, which are all opening diphthongs. The second element of each one is close to า in sound quality, but it isn't a separate long vowel, so I could live with a pattern that could be interpreted "opening diphthong based on อี" etc. If you say these vowels it's recognisably the same gesture in each case, just as the offglide in เร็ว, แล้ว etc is more of a gesture than a specific sound.

 

I believe there's a long history of using เ to write vowel sounds other than เอ, and if the system was rejigged to avoid this, a new symbol would be needed for เออ (and the other opening diphthongs, if they weren't changed to use า). I'm happy to have some combinations that aren't the sum of their parts - not that the spelling system is up for negotiation, obviously.

 

Personally I find this stuff interesting, but I would think most people are happy just to learn the system and soon come to perceive a combination like อัว as a unit.

To ramble on a little more, I find it interesting but initially needed to formulate these ideas in order to remember the vowels.  I first realized that I needed some logic when encountering the vowel เอาะ and thinking wrongly that it was the short form of เอา , I was confused for a while.  In fact on reflection I think that the second element In the mixed vowels is more likely to be สระ ะ than สระ า .  But if so then I wonder why the short forms couldn't be shown with the characters showing short vowels thus, เอิย เอึอ . 
I am not sure what offglide in แล้ว or เร็ว means. ว (ow) and ย (oy) ending denote live words so I feel are the most similar to their English counterparts.  If they are going to be said as dead endings then perhaps we could call อัว a diphthong which would make an argument for calling both ย and ว vowels. 
I know from hearing people mention "vowel shift" that the language has undergone some changes which could explain much of what puzzles me. 

13 hours ago, JHicks said:

 

I think his point was that it's strange that อัว is pronounced that way when, by the logic that gives you /aw/ and อาว, it ought to have the sound written เอา.

 

Did you mean อูา? I guess you'd then have to change เอือ and เอีย. I think I'd settle for เอูอ, which would free อัว up to be used instead of เอา. Course, it's a lot more consistent than English spelling even as it is...

JHicks: I see that you see my approach but in เอูอ you are reading a symbol used to write vowels with a sound. เ Is not สระ อา. 
 
I apologize if I appear to be teaching granny to suck eggs, I am shamelessly using you and Oxx because I hope that there are interested learners here and don't want them to experience the problems I had in making sense of the writing system.  

I don’t see a need to alter ี +า  ื+า  They are represented oddly เอีย เอือ and อู+า even more so. We are taught to read อั+ว as อูวะ . snd ไ as  อั+ย  so how could อั+ว be anything but what we have learnt is represented as เอา ?   
So it is quite logical that when presented with the Sandskrit word ชะวะนะ and desiring to make it one syllable อัว เชา was chosen and วน์ retained to show etymology.  

I take your point Oxx but you see it differently. The nine pure vowels are followed by three mixed vowels where the second, third and fourth vowels are mixed with the first vowel. So อัว is the fourth vowel อู mixed with อา , It is represented by เอ+อ+อา  which is impossible to read!    

4 hours ago, JHicks said:

If placed over the final consonant of a syllable with an unwritten vowel, I think it always silences the whole syllable.

 

I'm not sure what word you are thinking of but suspect the first of your three consonants would belong to a linker syllable, so would be silenced either because its main syllable has gone or just because it'd leave you with a weak syllable at the end of a word. I'd be interested to know of any exceptions to that pattern.

 

 

I won't claim to know, but based on the entry in the RID you can reconstruct it like this:

 

The original pronunciation was ชะวะนะ (there's a name for this way of reading Thai words of Pali / Sanskrit origin but I can't remember it). If you say ชะวะ fast enough it begins to sound like เชา, just because that's the sound you get when you round your lips while saying a. That gives you an Indic word with a final syllable ending in อะ, and that type of syllable tends to be dropped, as in สิงห์ etc. This may be because it is more natural to stress the longer / more complex syllable, and Thai can't really accommodate a weak syllable at the end of a word - that would explain why the final consonant in words like จักร comes back to life when you attach another syllable that can take stress, so that what was originally the final syllable becomes the penultimate syllable and can be weak. Whatever the reason, at that point the original word has been reduced to เชา. It looks as though the spelling was changed to reflect both the new pronunciation and the Indic spelling.

That makes perfect sense, เอา represents อัว.      
It is strange that when mixing the vowels อี. อื  and อู with า,  อัว was chosen and not อูว . 

I have just discovered that จักรยาน is said จักกระยาน. 

Thanks I didn't think to look there because I assumed, (you know what they say about "Ass U and me ) that it was a new word.  I see that it comes from Sandskrit. 

I have seen this word before, does anybody know what it means and why it has this incredible spelling? 

This interests me, Oxx is probably correct as to the tone of ก็ when used as a conjunction.  The only way to be sure would be to use the one mark ไม้โท over the ไม้ไต่คู้ which isn't done. 

ก็ is how it is written, the vowel symbol  อ็ (ไม้ไต่คู้)  Is used to show the short form of สระ ออ as in ล็อก ล+เอาะ + ก 

Glottal stop or not คำตาย is described as คำสระสั้นที่ไม่มีตัวสะกด which puts ก็ in the แม่กา, (no closing character) group for tone purposes,  so เสียงเอก (low) .  I just say it that way and it attracts no comment from native speakers. Try saying ก็ได้ (falling- falling) it sounds quite different from ก็ได้  I hear. 
 

incidentally I have a plasticised chart published by a company with the logo KH (knowledge House) บ้านความรู้, which describes นำ้ as being in the แม่กา group because อำ (อัม) is treated as a short vowel In the same way as ไอ and ใอ (อัย) both of which are considered แม่กา even though they clearly have a closing consonant and in practise are not treated as short vowels eg. ไม้ .  
So expect controversy if you want to tie people down in the manner of their speech or comment on the inclusion of อัว ไ ใ อำ เอา ฤ ฤา ฦ ฦา as vowels.  

น้ำ is normally said long as a single word. Compare อยู่นานไหม and ขายน้ำไหม I don’t think that นำ้ is any longer than ไหม whereas นาน definitely is. 

I feel that International mail the address should be in the destination language with the country written boldly in the language of origin, THAILAND in the case of an English speaking country. 

It is the ninth vowel, อา, อี, อื, อู, เอ, แอ, โอ, ออ, เออ,  
eg. To meet is เจอ, to raise up is เชิด 

It is not written เชิอด as you would expect when there is a closing consonant but เชิด where the vowel symbol ิ is used to replace the อ component.  
The short form is เออะ but it can't be shown so the tone must be learnt. เชิด long vowel, second tone (falling), in this case. 

Thank you.

I knew that รวม should be the word and explained but anomalies creep in and can become "grammatical" eventually. This creep makes learning language a question of parrot learning and paradoxically makes the process more difficult. An English example Is could've which sounds like "could of" and was I believe said initially by people who  wanted to speak "proper" and is so common now that it is probably taught as spoken English.  
People of my generation use many inexplicable English expressions which would not have been acceptable to our father's generations but I flatter myself that I can speak English so have no need to explain them.

I visit here to try to solve puzzles.  ร่วม รวม has always puzzled me because one is in the definition of the other which I was too thick to see! 

7 hours ago, Solinvictus said:

Very insightful thread, I appreciate it. I only knew the regular word for gossip.

 

One thing is for sure, I can't read Thai, but I can speak it quite well and understand it. Whew, the extent that Thai folks talk about each other let alone foriegners, is quite shocking. Real petty, matters.

 

It's like some of them need someone to just be like 'Take it easy and worry about your damn self.' Ha   #Asia

Gossipy has inverted commas to show that gossip might not be the correct word. นินทา (ninta) is the say bad things about people behind their backs. 
Gossip is something which the target should never know about because it won't be engaged in with people one can't trust.   If you have overheard people talking about you in a negative way then it is likely that you have misunderstood or it was said for you to hear. 
I think that you are lucky to be able to understand Thai without being able to read or write it, I trust that you do at least use phonetics, so to address your "Take it easy and worry about yourself". Do you know the Thai expression for this? 

For those who read, I made a mistake in my copy, it should read อย่าถือสาหาความยามนักเบา and for those who don't read;  Ya teusa ha kwam yaam nak baw 

An example of เมาท์ 

Three old ladies sitting together chatting. 
เป็นผู้เฒ่าเม้าท์ในไลน์สบายจิตหยอกกันนิดลอ้กันหน่อยปล่อยความเหงา อย่าสาหาความยามนักเบา อายุเราเข้าขึ้นสวรรค์รอ 
It is contented elderly "gossipy" people in a line teasing one another a little "Don't take it seriously at our age we are waiting to go up to heaven. 
เมาท์ As an adjective. (?)  

Timendres. The quote was added somehow  giving the impression that I was addressing it although I was answering bklyn. “Which tone in which situation” and assumed that you were also. 
I see that I didn’t answer him because I don’t have a “simple rule of thumb” . 
Has anyone an opinion on ตำผฃไม้รวม ? 

On 7/2/2020 at 6:43 PM, timendres said:

In my mind, I think of รวม (combine, add, include) as less important than ร่วม (sharing). Using a "falling tone" (ร่วม), in my English mind, adds emphasis, or importance. So I can remember that sharing is more important that combining, so I remember to put the emphasis on ร่วม, i.e., use the falling tone. I do the same thing with ไกล and ใกล้. Something close is more important, or urgent, than something far away, thus it gets the tone. Silly, but it works for me.

I have never had a problem with ไกล being far because ไม้มลาย is open, whereas ไม้ม้วน is closed so closer. 

The difference between รวม and ร่วม .  
รวม is simple it means บวกเข้าด้วยกัน add things together and ผสมเข้าด้วยกัน mix things together. I am translating ด้วยกัน as together, one with another. So a simple transitive verb, รวมเงิน combine the money รวมคะแนน combine the marks.  

ร่วม ก. มีส่วนรวมอยู่ด้วยกัน groups doing together, เช่น ร่วมกิน! ร่วมนอน   eating as a group sleeping as a group, Then: มีส่วนรวมเป็นอันหนึ่งอันเดียวกัน Groups identified as one เช่น ร่วมใจ ร่วมสามัคคี one heart, one unity. มีส่วนรวมในที่แห่งเดียวกัน  groups of a place  ร่วมโรงเรียน ร่วมบ้าน ร่วมห้อง ร่วมหอ Same school same house etc. เห็นแก่ส่วนรวม specially for the group. มีส่วนรวมในภาวะหรือสถานะเดียวกัน Groups with common situations or conditions 
เพื่อนร่วมชาติ same nationality มีศัตรูร่วมกัน Same enemy ทำบุญร่วมญาติ give as relatives. ร่วมเป็นร่วมตาย ร่วมทุกข์ร่วมสุข  ร่วมชะตากรรม someone else can translate that. 
 

So, has this brought us any closer to answering the question: ตำผลไม้รวม or ตำผลไม้ร่วม ? 
I think that it should be ตำผลไม้รวม because รวมผลไม้= ผลไม้ถูกรวม or ผลไม้รวม But I could be wrong. 

As already said มองไม่เห็น shows the meaning of มอง and เห็น.  Looking but not seeing.   อยากรู้อยากเห็น like to know like to comprehend. Without มอง .ไม่เห็น =ไม่เข้าใจ  This shows that เห็น means รู้ as well.  I think that อยากรู้อยากเห็น is translated as curious. 
ดูซิ่ look (see if you like it).   มองซิ Look! (With Purpose). 
Golf.เห็นลูกไหม Did you see my ball? 

ไม่ได้มอง I did not look. 
Naturally the more one thinks the more Interchangeable the words become so. ไม่เห็น I didn't see where your ball went. I feel that ดู is closer range than มอง   Is there a difference between these?  ดูลูก(กอล์ฟ)นี้ ยี่ห้ออะไร มองลูกนี้ ยี่ห้ออะไร  
Thai people shorten everything so ไม่เห็น could be short for มองไม่เห็น  ดูซิ่ and มองซิ่ could be interchangeable as well of course. 
In other words, I have wasted my time! 

One thing that I am sure of is that Thailand’s PM is not something on which anyone here is entitled or qualified to have an opinion. 

On 6/10/2020 at 5:43 AM, digbeth said:

เม้าท์มอย มอย is nonsense that is added, the gist is similar to chitchatting 

otherwise เม้าท์ in Thai is usually similar to mounthing off someone 

I think that the following is an example of chitchatting.
วิธีการนี้ กำลังมีในประเทศไทย ระวังมีสติกันด้วยในชุมชน ไม่ต้องยกมือถือขึ้นมา โดอยเฉพาะตอนเดิน ขึ้นลง รถไฟฟ้า ไม่ต้องเม้าท์ เลย 

"This sort of thing is happening in Thailand, be aware in gatherings, no need to use your phone especially when walking, boarding or alighting the BTS, no need to chat on the phone."  
This was a caption to a film of a gang of five men jostling a person while one of them snatches the phone. 

The sort of thing people say on Line app. to make others feel good. ตื่นเช้านี้ สิ่งชั่วร้ายหายไป พบแต่โชคดี มั่งมีรำรวย มีความสุข ตลอดไป 

Probably มาแล้ว I have arrived.

จริงมากนัก or จริงมากนะ true very very - Thats for sure. That sounds a little sarcastic to me. 

There is no way of knowing what was said and how does it matter because the meaning is clear. เอามา is the closest.  คืนมา ส่งมา are other ways to say give it back. 

So my first post was wrong. เม้าท์ can mean gossip. Since the word is English it probably owes its Thai meaning to phrases like , all mouth and trousers, mouthy, big mouth etc. rather than gossip. เม้าท์ was suggested to me by a native speaker as another way of saying นินทา.   Needless to say it is useful to know in case we hear it.