tgeezer

40 minutes ago, JHicks said:

Did you do that by rote? It's the same issue as before really, just in relation to a smaller set of letters. The phonemic method would have been a fairly simple alternative to memorising which were mid and which low. The classes stick after a while so you end up knowing them by heart. In some cases you could also have got there by working backwards from the name, and then there's alphabetical order. Still, these methods are too complicated to be worthwhile IMO - that's the rabbit hole again.

 

My introduction to Thai was at the AUA but I was only visiting for a few months and I worked with Thais in AbuDhabi, so I simply bought children's school books. Naturally I learned กอ ไก่ ขอ ไข่ by rote but since a story comes with each letter I wasn't only learning the letters. I don't remember the stories but I remember ไข่ในเล้า ขวดอยู่ราว, they rhyme you see, I am not sure that อยู่ราว is correct it it rhymes and makes sense so why not? 

I am afraid that I have never heard of the phonemic method so can't comment, but all roads lead to Rome. 
 

42 minutes ago, BananaBandit said:

 

So, with the word   กว่า   does   ว  take on the mid-consonant properties of  ก  ?

How about a word like  กล่าว   ?

 

With the word  สร้าง   ...Does the  ร   take on the high-consonant properties of  ส   and therefore mean that one should speak the word with a falling tone?

...Or does the consonant cross-dressing take place only when a low consonant is paired with a   ห

(or, less commonly, in cases with a อ such as อร่อย ......i believe  อย่าง  would fall under this category also, แม่น บ่อ นะครับ)

Quite correct, The leading consonant governs the tone, but since it is possible to say กว (gwa)  together the tone mark is placed above the second consonant.  
กล่าว is in the same boat (gla) .  ThIs are just like us, only throat made sounds and tongue made sounds can be said together. คร คล คว , We think that we say slant, black etc, but there is a little'a' between the two consonants.   
สร้าง is completely different because สร can not be said together so one would think สะร้าง 1st 3rd tones but in this word ร is silent so ส้าง 2nd tone. 
You will discover that ส seems a lawless character best dealt with as individual words.

 Oxx and JHicks know more than I about these things. 

On 9/10/2020 at 12:36 PM, JHicks said:

I think we’ve gone down a bit of a rabbit hole here. I'd prefer to say that the phonemic approach to the consonant classes will tell you which consonants have to be low, which have to be mid, and which come in both high and low versions, but for that last set, you basically have to remember which versions are high and which are low. There are ways to work it out, but they all depend on having some kind of knowledge that you probably wouldn’t have if you hadn’t already got the consonant classes down pat. In other words, by the time you're in a position to work out which is which, you don’t need to.

I don’t want to make the approach described in the thai-language link sound more complicated than it really is – it's the bolt-ons we're discussing that are complicated.

I would have thought most people learn the names of the consonants before the classes, or at least find that the names stick more easily than the classes, so yes, I think there could be situations where it would help to work backwards from the name to the class – it's just that in reality, by the time you can see that ค has to be low because khwaai is mid, you already know by heart that ค is low." 

by tgeezer:

 I suppose this will appear in the quote box, apologies. 
I see what you mean but it is what might be described nowadays as "aftermarket". 

I learned the "alphabet" first using the correct tones so had only to separate the mid class consonants from the low class consonants, the high being in the fourth tone. 

12 hours ago, BananaBandit said:

When first learning to read, I encountered this stuff about consonant classes...didn't seem like "much fun"  ...so i put it out of sight, out of mind...forgot it even existed actually...until a few weeks ago.

 

I now realize I've been either missing the mark or else just butchering the pronunciation of at least 50 percent of my Thai vocabulary.  I do recall having a few semi-conversations with Thai/Lao people...I'm surprised at how well they were able to understand my attempt to speak. 

Can I recommend the "alphabet" not only for the consonants but also for the number of words which it teaches, all of them in context. Every consonant comes with a little story eg.  ก เอ๋ย ก ไก่ ออกไปหากิน เขี่ยไต่ดินกินหนอนกับแมลง, that may be missing something but you get the idea. หากิน is an interesting word. It says look for food here but from that it can also stand for work:  ผู้หญิงหากิน says a lot or little. 

As I say above, of the first six consonants, two of them are said in the fourth tone, the others are common so you need to learn only that ก is mid class. So the pattern continues with only one fourth tone consonant cropping up before one or two mid so that by the time you get to บ you have learnt six Mid class consonants leaving only บ ป and อ as mid class.  This process of elimination teaches all of which consonants are of which class.  
I have a chart on the back of my bathroom door and have just been to check it, the high class consonants are in red the mid in yellow and the low in green. Be strict with yourself never say ขอ as คอ.

1 hour ago, JHicks said:

Absolutely. Also, if the exemplar of one of these high/low consonants (there's probably a better word for that, but I mean e.g. ควาย for ค) has a mid or high tone then the consonant has to be low class, whereas if it has a low or rising tone it has to be high class. That only leaves a few (the ones that have a falling tone) that could be either. I think it's about learning styles and would never criticise someone for learning the consonant classes or live / dead endings as lists, but I don't regret the time I put into the phonological side one iota.

I presume that you are still talking about tones!  If so, I am intrigued.
You wrote;   " ....Also, if the exemplar of one of these high/low consonants (there's probably a better word for that, but I mean e.g. ควาย for ค) has a mid or high tone then the consonant has to be low class,".  
Does this mean that you are interesting in identifying the class of a consonant when you already know the word? 

That's a good one.
A girlfriend once said "kiss me", I thought, how sweet and obliged, she appeared surprised.  Years later when I had learned of the difficulty some English words present I realized that she has said Excuse me! My response would have been "sweet" too had she not meant What did you say! 
 

15 hours ago, BananaBandit said:

if you take a low consonant  ว  and pair it with a  ห  to make  หว  does it then become a high consonant?

 

And if such is the case, does the  หว่าง  part of the word   ระหว่าง   have a low tone ( as a high consonant with a ไม้ เอก ) ?

Please excuse me if I don't use the same terminology as English books but I found that their charts and tables don't suit me, they make simple things difficult because they often ignore the basics. 

วรรณยุกต์/วรรณยุต  means tone mark but in the nature of Thai, if this appears เสียงวรรณยุก it means เสียงสูงต่ำ =tone. . The tones are common/normal (สามัญ) one (เอก) two(โท) three (ตรี) and four(จัตวา).  Common doesn't need a tone mark but the others are numbered to match their tone.  The only anomaly which has to be accepted is that where low class consonants are concerned, one = two!  (Thai is way ahead of its time- 1984) 

when ห is placed before a low class consonants it is called leading h ( หอนำ)  it is silent but means that one =one. So you are correct in ระหว่าง . 

Leading h is used where the low class consonant does not have a high or mid class consonant of the same sound, these consonants mostly appear in the "alphabet" where the patterns seem to break down, ง,ญ,ณ,น,ย,ร,ล,ว and ฬ but there are no words starting หฬ. These are called unpaired letters (อักศรเดียว) Sometimes อ is used to show first tone, อร่อย I don't remember that being given a name but ออนำ would probably do. 
Most Thais have forgotten things like this but you may encounter a teacher who doesn't teach foreigners.  

 

On 9/5/2020 at 7:24 AM, tgeezer said:

. Deadwords are words with short vowels without a closing consonant and words ending in k,t or p 
 

Every other syllable(word) which are not in these forms is live, they are common tone unless there is a high class initial consonant. 

กา คา are common tone because they are live หา is fourth tone because it is live with a high class initial, หาก is a deadword (ending in ก) so first tone, หัก similarly. 

คะ is high because it is a deadword with a short vowel. มาก is a deadword with a long vowel so first tone.   
 

14 hours ago, BananaBandit said:

If a low consonant like  ร  has a short vowel with a dead consonant ending like  ก   ...as in the word  รัก  ...then there is a high tone, correct?

Yes. Final letter ก = deadword initial letter low, short vowel = high tone.  ราด final letter ด = dead word, ร+long vowel = falling tone. 
It all seems difficult if you can't instantly identify the class of the consonant which is why learning the "alphabet" is so important, here, you only need to recognize low class consonants. If a dead word does not have a low class consonant the tone is low. 

When I first encountered กล้องถ่ายรูป I couldn't read Thai and I knew about tones tones but typically, often got them wrong.  I knew that *กลอง was a box so that made a camera a 'box camera' which was the basic camera of my youth and this misconception persisted long after I had learned to read and write.  I was never really sure between box and camera,

 I suppose if กล้อง and ถ่ายรูป are taught separately now this problem Is not one shared by new learners but perhaps it shows the value of basic Thai.  For example when encountering telescope, binoculars theodolite etc. does camera or tube spring to mind which is the more useful?   


 
Anyone got any similar useful misconceptions?  

Not completely, you know the rules for dead words because ยาก ถูก are correct
If you look at the chart I posted you should see มาตราตัวสเกด , that means syllable endings. I see endings as split into families with a mother แม่ there are nine. I was taught  k,p,t,m,n,g and  open:แม่กา, y: แม่ เกย and W:  แม่ เกอว were ignored as being too complicated. I went for a long time ignoring them too.  You will realise that ยัง is แม่กง so live.  Live words are not affected by length of the vowel. 
This is not taught in English instruction and might seem confusing but identifying deadwords seems easier to me. 
คำตาย คำสระสั่นไม่มีตัวสะกด พวกหนึ่ง และคำ นมาตรา  กก กดด กบ . Deadwords are words with short vowels without a closing consonant and words ending in k,t or p 
 

Every other syllable(word) which are not in these forms is live, they are common tone unless there is a high class initial consonant. 

กา คา are common tone because they are live หา is fourth tone because it is live with a high class initial, หาก is a deadword (ending in ก) so first tone, หัก similarly. 

คะ is high because it is a deadword with a short vowel. มาก is a deadword with a long vowel so first tone.   
 

On 8/28/2020 at 3:32 PM, BananaBandit said:

คำตาย 

 

becomes a possibility only if there is no 

 

วรรณยุกต์

 

correct?

Not according to the chart which I posted:  ก้ะ ก๊ะ ก๋ะ ข้ะ ม้าก etc. they may be possible in theory but best to learn the basics, dead words with high or mid class consonants are low tone.  Low class consonants are high with a short vowel and falling with a long vowel.  You soon get used to seeing the word and using the correct tone after schooling yourself as kids are schooled, then when you see ค่ะ it sticks out like a dog's balls. 

Both ฃ and ฅ are redundant but still form part of the language, both have been replaced by ข and ค respectively.  Just a little feature which makes the language unique I suppose. 
 

Police don't sue people.
ปฏิบัติ is to proceed following established forms of behaviour, doing a duty perhaps. การจับ is to catch. 
ฟ้อง is to complain of behaviour deserving punishment,  ศาล a court, ฟ้องศาล is to charge with a crime. ฐาน is a conjunction meaning because.  
ลัก is a verb to transgress ลักทรัพย์= steal property. So you can probably guess a better translation.   

If this is contrived to contain every letter then it might not be normal prose but it makes sense. ตำรวจได้จับ says as much as ตำรวจปฏิบัติการจับ Using Proper Nouns is cheating in my opinion also. Touch typing books do a better job so might on-line touch typing courses. 
 

Then you will find that endings (closing letter) effect the tone as well. Questions on that will be answered here by me saying live and dead words while others might say closing consonants or final letters. I recommend T-L.com to home learners because any questions they may have arise therefrom and can be easily answered using the same references.  
Disagreements here arise mostly because we have not all used the same learning resource. 
If a picture appears it isn’t from T.L. Com 

Try Thai-language.com. Everything is there in reference. They even have a forum for questions although there are few people posting there now. The advantage is that anyone who does respond is reading from the same hymn sheet. 

Thailand closed provincial borders in order to contain the virus and has concluded Wuflu is not as bad as Spanish flu of 1917, because they have not only lifted the restrictions on travel but encouraged it with no adverse result. An accurate assessment of Wuflu in other countries, even in places like U.K. where talking up the problem is endemic in the media , would show that foreigners are no more toxic to Thais than residents of Bangkok are to residents of Isaan.  WHO (UN) wants this scam to succeed, who else wants that? 

56 minutes ago, Oxx said:

 

I can only conclude that you are unwilling or unable to learn from someone who has a far better grasp of the Thai language and its issues than you.  I won't be replying again.

 Your conclusion seems to be consistent with the novel practice of de-platforming.  I admit that I am unable to learn unsubstantiated claims but do my questions not show a willingness to learn? That a person who claims to have so much to teach but prefers to withdraw speaks volumes to the forum.   ตีหัวเท่ากับอายุซิ่   

 There you go again with your superior attitude "hopelessly" ! 
Did Marvin Brown say that? What did he mean by irregular do you think? can you give some examples? Silent letters are not sounded so would support my argument. My contention is that learning the phonetic systems is a waste of time because, the time it takes to learn all the ways of showing "mid tone unstressed 'a' " and "length of vowels" in particular words, would have been better spent learning the words directly in Thai. 

On 8/13/2020 at 3:34 AM, ColeBOzbourne said:

The translation was not very helpful in that regard. I stumbled across a few children's e-books in Thai from a site called 'Brillkids'. Then to investigate some questions I found a separate site in English. The English version is a poem and the Thai version only sticks to the general story line. Here is the translation:

 

Here is a boy. He wants a toy.

Where can he go? He wants to know.

You can get a toy from a shop. It is too far to hop.

He rides a train. It starts to rain.

The boy gets to the shop. He buys a new top.

The rain is done, out comes the sun! He has lots of fun.

 

นี่คือเด็กผู้ชายที่อยากได้ของเล่น

จะไปหาที่ไหนดีถึงจะมีของเล่น

ที่ร้านขายของเล่นไงไม่ไกลหรอกนะ

นั่งรถไฟไปกับแม่แย่แล้วฝนตก!

ถึงร้านของเล่นตื่นเต้นได้ของเล่นใหม

ฝนหยุดตกแล้วนะพระอาทิตย์สาดส่องเล่นของเล่นใหม่สุขใจจริงเอย

Thank you. I see what you mean.    
 

I commented on this topic out of curiosity, it is not my place to question anybody's topic but if I feel that it might mislead new learners I feel obliged to point it out.  
The Thai script is unambiguous in representing sounds with only a few exceptions which makes learning any system of phonetic transcription which can not be read intuitively unnecessary.   

Oxx I was stung by the critical tone in post no. 8 and by not acknowledging my claim in post No 10 that your post "passeth all understanding" you add insult to injury.  

Having got that off my chest, I would be interested in your opinion of the value of representing Thai using symbols other than Thai script and correctly showing the juxtaposition of consonants and vowels because it seems to me that this would be meaningless without the knowledge Thai grammar.   

Oxx, I can't deny that I Found your reply confusing which is why I responded to the OP. 
  "...how it is spelt" I took to mean the ordering of letters which is i h m in ใหม่
Perhaps you can tell me what spelt means, is it the letters used and their order in a word? 

Thanks, I see what you mean. 

Thanks for posting the paragraph can you post the translation as well because ไง will have been translated. I doubt that ไง is seen as คำอุทาน. 

I must be missing something. I don’t know what language you speak or what you mean by phonetic but ใหม่ is not the sound of Him even allowing for the fact that the line over h might mean silent (h) I get  “im” which requires reading backwards, “mi” and i pronounce y -“my”  to sound like ใหม่ 
Some people think that learning Thai is difficult, this looks far more so!