morphic

..... people come here they look around at houses that are on the market for perhaps years with a rediculous asking price which I believe is what actully drives this false overpriced property market - property that is on the market promoted by realters/developers at over inflated prices setting a stake in the ground - creating the false market

Absolutely correct.

One reason why people can afford to hold empty property for years on end whilst hoping to sell at an absurdly over-inflated price is that maintenance costs are low and ownership costs are zero.

When Thailand finally brings in proper capital gains tax on property, and annual property taxes in general, there will be a significant move away from owning huge swathes of empty property in the hope that the price will go up.

Yes and in addition to maintenance and cleaning costs etc there is also the transaction cost comprisng stamp duty, agent's fees, legal fees etc. The transaction cost can be very high.

And in addition to the above there is also a constant depreciation such that even if new property prices as a whole are unchanged the property still gets older and less desirable. On average I estimate this to be about 1% a year, i.e., buyers pay more for a newer property and pay less for an older property. The clock ticks in only one direction.

In combination it actually takes a significant rise in new property prices just to breakeven on a purchase due to these drags. And this doesn't even factor in the alternative uses the purchase capital could have been put to, such as leaving it in a bank to earn a few percent a year risk and hassle free even at today's low rates. I do not believe the majority of buyers (and subsequent holders) really understand that all of these factors need to be properly accounted for in deciding to purchase a property. If they did I doubt they would be nearly as confident that buying "bricks and mortar" was always a good investment, especially at today's bloated prices and given all of the other risks of an investment in Thailand, a market especially dangerous for foreigners due to corruption, racism and general lack of rule of law.

For these and other reasons I have been extremely cautious in buying property in Pattaya, much preferring to put my money to alternative uses.

It may not be as dumb as it first seems, it all depends on where the money came from in the first place. If the buyer is holding "dirty" cash then washing it via a property purchase, even if it involves a slight loss, is a very good way to achieve legitimacy.

And before someone comments, how much dirty cash is there here in Thailand, my answer would be loads of it, so much so that if Thailand doesn't enact and enforce legislation soon it will become almost impossible to transfer funds in or out of Thailand, regardless of ownership, including you and me, because global banks will not accept it - Thailand is under huge pressure at the moment in this respect.

Yes, as i mentioned in an earlier post, money laundering is often the real reson for transaction which make no economical sense.

And regarding Bankokians needing a second home in case of floods, that is eomthing I understand. However, spending 8 million baht on a house isn't big money in my books and doesn't mean "Asians are all wealthy".

]Been,no company buying method,no agreements longer than 3 years

Hmmm...I know several that have been setup recently here in Pattaya. Both houses and condos.

Usually if somone buys an asset like a property, doesn't bother to rent, doesn't care about returns...they are up to something fishy. My guess is a lot of money is laundered through Thai property.

You have to understand the Asian mentality. Property is a big deal to them. They look at this long term. I know many properties that sit vacant as the owner is just waiting for the right return. And they are willing to wait until they get it. They've got plenty of money to wait it out. We've got a big, beautiful building near us that is almost always 90% empty. I have several friends who live there. Some units get used 1 or 2 times a year only. The rest of the year they sit empty and they are not interested in renting them out.

I understand it perfectly well and I think its stupid. How smart is it to buy a property, leave it empty, pay for maintenance etc, lose every year as it depreciates and hope some mug is going to come along to buy it at a huge premium? Is that a plan? You can do that when prices are low, maybe after a big correction, planning on flipping after a few months, but holding on at these levels is just plain dumb. And the same goes for the falang by the way, not just Asians. These people will never admit to a loss, thats their mentality and its even more pathetic. Ive seen some top end condos empty for years and I know what the owner paid and I know they are sitting on losses which are growing every day, fact. How smart is that? Am I supposed to think "oh, the Asians mentality is so strange and mysterious, if only I wasn't paralysed by my narrow Western logic"....LOL.

As for Asians being rich,. what a stupid comment, a small percentage are rich just like small percentage of falangs are rich, but most certainly are not and I've seen quite a few make money throigh pure dumb luck and then lose all of it over a short time, through pure idiocy....im I supposed to be in awe of that "Asian mentality"?

Yes that is right, Thais prefer a new unused house. They also buy houses if they have surplus money and leave it empty. The new house next to mine is owned by a Thai and I haven't seen him for month and I know he lives in town.

Sure it is not the K bank that is the owner?

100%, he is a doctor have his own clinic, owns 2 or 3 houses here in Patts (don't know what he wants to do with all those houses, he don't look like a mia noi guy, but one can never tell, lol)

Usually if somone buys an asset like a property, doesn't bother to rent, doesn't care about returns...they are up to something fishy. My guess is a lot of money is laundered through Thai property.

... property there is already far better than the overpriced crap in Thailand and in addition, as you say, there will be no ownership problems in Europe as well as a far lower chance of falling victim to corrupt and incompetent property management that seem the norm here.

No doubt at all about the constructions being of better quality in most places in Europe, but watch out for the property scammers in Spain. They have pulled off some pretty staggering frauds, the likes of which could probably not happen here due to the Land Office being pretty competent. For example, the thousands of properties built and sold in complete illegality in Spain on non-constructible land and that has been/will soon be bulldozed by the local authority with no recompense for the foreign pigeons who bought it.

It seems that Spain has finally got it's act together and this can't happen any more, but it was only a couple of years ago that it was still happening and a hell of a lot of idiots have lost a hell of a lot of money. What's the betting that many of the agents involved have moved here?

Spain was a gigantic, rotten, corrupt property ponzi scheme, no doubt about it. That is why it is collapsing and that is why some great bargains will be available in the near future.

Thailand's property market is also ponzi like and given the ever more bloated and stagnant resale market, it may too collapse one day. If it does then Thai property may once again offer value. But if it doesn't then the resale market will continue to just go nowhere, units sitting unsold for years and years.

....and as for comparing to buying in Spain..yeah right, 25% unemployment, banking disaster that will not get their bailout and a currency that is on the brink of collapse....I know where I would sooner have my money!

Dont forget the upsides; you can actually own all property in your own name there, if you have an EU passport you have right of abode and the right to work there, your EU pension will be index-linked there and you qualify for social security benefits like healthcare there. None of that applies to Thailand.

The EUR is dropping fast and property in Spain and other Eurozone countries is now collapsing. In a fairly short time there will be some good opportunities to buy over there. In terms of quality and price, property there is already far better than the overpriced crap in Thailand and in addition, as you say, there will be no ownership problems in Europe as well as a far lower chance of falling victim to corrupt and incompetent property management that seem the norm here.

I have the money buy in Thailand, but I think it would be a stupid mistake to do so. Much better as a foreigner to rent in Thailand and buy where the system isn't set up to fleece you, which is the case in Thailand.

What is the point of those Muay Thai gyms? Do these Thai instructors offer any meaningful training at all, or just hold the pads up for the falangs who just kick and punch away till they are out of gas?

The instructors are ex-boxers and teach stratedgy too. The are not just punching bags. There are pictures everywhere of Thai champions who have trained there.

Compared to jujitsu or judo etc, there is almost no technique in Muay Thai and I guess thats why all I see is bam bam bam on the pads...very physical, very tough, its really gonna hurt when one of those kicks/elbows/knees etc connect but all i've ever see these ex-champions do is hold up the pads and the falang kicks and punches etc and makes a lot of slapping sounds and thats the end. I see very little teaching of technique or stragegy. It seems the few areas of Muay Thai that do involve technique (as opposed to just smashing the pads) like clinching and a bit of throwing and locking are hardly touched upon by most of the "instructors". In fact, sadly, Muay Thai will soon be indistinguishable from ordinary kick boxing apart from being able to also use the knees and elbows.

"What Is With The Price Of Condos And Houses In Pattaya, Will They Drop Or Raise Even More?"

this is rather a very silly question, no one knows the market and future,, it all called a speculation

If you have the money to buy, you buy

If you do not have the money to buy and want to "wait" in hope it will drop and you will buy, perhaps you should not buy

If you are an investor, then you need to have the knowledge of the market(which you clearly do not) knowledge of the areas and knowledge of the industry

Simple logic, if you invest $100 000, and sell later, you will not be making profit of $100 000 because prices in Thailand do not grow as fast as in the West, though if you wait for 15-20 years you might

LOL....thanks....thats got to be one of the dumbest posts I've read in a long time....thanks for making me laugh

Actually his post(Phl) made perfect sense, while your response is the dumbest post i ever read, but is in line with your previous post of founding "irregularities" in chanots

Just for a laugh, please share the "irregularities" with the rest, so i along with others can learn what to look out for in chanot

First, nothing in his post made any sense, thats why I found it so funny.

As for iregularities, they included incorrect sizes (dramatically incorrect) and huge areas of the condo missing entirely in the chanot so that I would have paid for something with no legal claim at all. Also, I noted on one modifications from the bank the chanot had been lodged with by a prior owner, with no land office stamp or signature.

"What Is With The Price Of Condos And Houses In Pattaya, Will They Drop Or Raise Even More?"

this is rather a very silly question, no one knows the market and future,, it all called a speculation

If you have the money to buy, you buy

If you do not have the money to buy and want to "wait" in hope it will drop and you will buy, perhaps you should not buy

If you are an investor, then you need to have the knowledge of the market(which you clearly do not) knowledge of the areas and knowledge of the industry

Simple logic, if you invest $100 000, and sell later, you will not be making profit of $100 000 because prices in Thailand do not grow as fast as in the West, though if you wait for 15-20 years you might

LOL....thanks....thats got to be one of the dumbest posts I've read in a long time....thanks for making me laugh

I looked at a house a couple of years ago. It is still being marketed at the same price. Thats the story of the resale market, almost nothing sells. Now and again someone will pay close to the asking price for the right place and now and again an owner will cut the price by 30-50% to enable a sale.

I offered 40% below asing on a condo a few years ago and the offer was accepted; due to my cold feet and irregularities in the chanoot I then changed my mind.

On another place I thought I might be able to get 20% off a nice penthouse in a low rise development but once again I noticed irregularities in the paperwork, became concerned about local karaoke bars and so changed my mind.

Finding the right property in the right location seems almost an impossibility and thats without even considering the awful quality of construction and legal uncertainties that foreign owners have to contend with here.

Will prices drop? Hard to say, hard to know even if they do as asking prices may not change and transacted prices won't be known generally...and forget about getting honest information from the agents. My guess is nothing much will change, nothing much will sell apart from those vastly over priced new builds that will enrich developers and connected locals and quickly depreciate as they join the ranks of the ever growing resale market.

What is Hong Kong like for goggles....might have to go there soon.

My guess is a lot cheaper, far more professional and far more trustworthy than the shoddy rip off merchants that Thailand is full of. So wait for your trip and see.

What is the point of those Muay Thai gyms? Do these Thai instructors offer any meaningful training at all, or just hold the pads up for the falangs who just kick and punch away till they are out of gas?

I was quoted ฿17 000.- for mine, I'm still looking (in a vague, blurred sort of way).

That is about 6 times more than I paid in Singapore. And just so you know, I have been extremely pleased with the resuilt and have been waearing them for over a year.

I went into one of the many glasses shops, on Central Road I think. I showed my current pair of progressive lenses that I had made in Singapore and for the same prescription/thickness/quality he quoted about 3 times what I paid forn them. When I told him his price seemed much too high he suddenly claimed mine were actually of very low quality and the ones he had quoted were far better in quality. So basically I concluded that like everything else in Pattaya (maybe Thailand generally) it was once again just about lying and cheating falang.

Basically I wouldn't consider bothering with the rip off merchants in Pattaya, have them made either in another country, Malaysia or Singapore would be perfect, or from the internet if you are 100% sure of the specifications. Also, I wouldn't trust any of the people in Pattaya to test my eyes properly etc, they are only there to rip you off and the reason they can survive on what seems like a tiny trickle of customers (they are almost always empty) is by massively over charging.

If you mean Yensabai its just another Thai style condo. As I remember, from the last time I saw it which was about 10 years ago now, it has the usual long, poorly lit corridors on each floor, lined by doors into cell like rooms. Like most of these condos it smells a bit, can be noisy from all the doors open, frequentn screaming drills from the non stop "renovations", groups of people squawking inside, terrible sound proofing between floors and walls and is blighted on both sides by hours a night of thundering, booming music, the gay area on one side and the od karaoke bar on the other. And also like many of these places, the managenent has been known for being nasty, small minded and "greedy". Still, I guess its still very cheap.

Why do people pay to go to gyms and sign up for long contracts anyway? If I want to exercise I can go jogging for free, do press ups for free, do sit ups for free...seems crazy to pay, let alone sign up for a contract

Wonder if Dick will be getting a visit from Toby and a couple of his mates?

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Don't think he will need any mates to sort stuff out.

They look pretty tough don't they, in their unforms, with their guns. LOL. Dont you remember the jet ski guys in Phuket and the Royal Marines? Surely everyone has seen the BBC documentary and the Youtube vidoes? These Royal Marines shat themselves, they couldn't handle a couple of Thai thugs. They backed down, even the more senior sergent they called shat himself and backed down. They got stared down, they backled down, I bet they wouldn't even have had the balls to defend their girlfriends or wives against a couple of Thai jet ski thugs. Pathetic, pathetic spectacle of grown men, soldiers, no harder and tougher than women.

They were not going to start scrapping on the beach as they probably knew what the outcome would be. The older NCO did his best and avoided any unpleasant incidents. That 'rifle' the Thai man had was just an airgun but of a make that the marines were probably unfamiliar with. Foreign servicemen cannot take weapons into the town, Thai rogues can.

Sorry, but they were no longer on the beach, they weren't outnumbered, they were being threatened and essentially mugged. No matter what the rules are in terms of the RM's getting into fights, I am sure self defence is permitted and all these guys needed to do was say "we aren't paying" and walk away. But they didn't.

And the excuse of it being braver to turn the other cheek or always walk away doesn't wash. They were just scared, plain and simple. They shat themselves, they were stared down and talked down and they were too scared to stand up for themselves. Its sad because these are supposedly the best soldiers in the world and its pathetic that they didn't even stand up to a few Thai thugs and whats more, they showed themselves up on camera for the world to see.

I am sick of seeing these Thai thugs getting away with so much, I had hoped that atleast the so called best trained and hardest soldiers in the world would have the balls to stand up to them. But no, they showed they don't really have balls, just shit. And you know what, the morons that reacted to my earlier posts with all their tough guy soldier talk would almost certainly shit themselves too. They would claim they were just being braver by walking away and paying 30000 baht or whatever but in reality they would just shit themselves.

Wonder if Dick will be getting a visit from Toby and a couple of his mates?

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Don't think he will need any mates to sort stuff out.

They look pretty tough don't they, in their unforms, with their guns. LOL. Dont you remember the jet ski guys in Phuket and the Royal Marines? Surely everyone has seen the BBC documentary and the Youtube vidoes? These Royal Marines shat themselves, they couldn't handle a couple of Thai thugs. They backed down, even the more senior sergent they called shat himself and backed down. They got stared down, they backled down, I bet they wouldn't even have had the balls to defend their girlfriends or wives against a couple of Thai jet ski thugs. Pathetic, pathetic spectacle of grown men, soldiers, no harder and tougher than women.

You'll often find Royal Marines on R & R enjoying a light ale in The Classroom on Soi Pattayaland 2. A brave guy like you is doing yourself an injustice posting anonymously on here, get yourself down there and let them know exactly what you think of them.

On a one on one basis (as opposed to me in a go-go bar surrounded by RM's on R&R) I probably would say what I thought and assuming an average Royal Marine I doubt i would be frightened to go toe to toe with one of them.

But thats all irrelevant, i don't count myself as a hard man and I don't go around getting into fights. But that doesn't stop me from having an opinion. If I want I can have a negative opinion on Usain Bolt but that doesnt mean I think I can beat him in a race. And the opinion I have on those RM's is that they shat themselves during the jet ski gang confrontation.

Wonder if Dick will be getting a visit from Toby and a couple of his mates?

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

Don't think he will need any mates to sort stuff out.

They look pretty tough don't they, in their unforms, with their guns. LOL. Dont you remember the jet ski guys in Phuket and the Royal Marines? Surely everyone has seen the BBC documentary and the Youtube vidoes? These Royal Marines shat themselves, they couldn't handle a couple of Thai thugs. They backed down, even the more senior sergent they called shat himself and backed down. They got stared down, they backled down, I bet they wouldn't even have had the balls to defend their girlfriends or wives against a couple of Thai jet ski thugs. Pathetic, pathetic spectacle of grown men, soldiers, no harder and tougher than women.

I do think it is stupid to over tip, quite apart from being unwarranted and unnecessary. It also does spoil the market as it creates inflated expectations. And if the Thais don't tip, for the most part, then why would we?

It also doesn't matter what the cost is elsewhere, in another country. We are here, not elsewhere. We can't choose to underpay for things that are more expensive here, like a good bottle of wine. So why overpay when something is cheaper?

But more important, just because Germany for example is extremely expensive, doesn't make things elsewhere "too cheap".

I guess people like Naam have a bit of an insecurity complex and money is a way to big himself up. Lots of people have money but choose to spend it wisely and they feel no need to constanly hint to the wider workd that they have "big money".

Anyway, I tend not to tip unless I see the Thais stipping and then I tip by the amount they seem to.

As for haircuts, no idea what the convention is.

1. People that spell Bhat (as in Thai Bhat) as "Bath". They remind me of the kind of people from the UK that say "five pound" instead of "five pounds". Both of these types of people have idiot eyes.

2. People that don't know thwe difference between a typo and genuinly bad spelling.

3. The discovery by the hordes of little places that were previously favourite haunts because they hadn't been descended on yet by the hordes. The hordes then force me to move on. Pattaya is a bit like that generally.

4. The sight of large, clumsy, ungainly falangs sitting at an outside table eating Thai food. There is something about them, their huge heads going up and down, their big mouths chewing away like cows, their bodies that are bit too large for the chairs and tables. I wish these people would stick to eating meat pies in bars and leave me to eat my kao man gai in peace.

5. Overly friendly conversaton from foreigners, could be falangs but can be others, towards Thai business vendors, when I know very well the Thai's are only interested in money and probably hate falangs. Once I hear all the "how are you, its been so long" blah blah blah and see the hand shaking I normally feel like vomiting. Do these guys really thing the Thai people running these businesses are their great friends? A friendly nod or hello will do.

6. Russians with shirts unbuttoned wandering around Mike Shopping Mall.

7. People who say they hate whingers

8. Whiny Australians that pretend to be all laid back etc etc

9...

10...

The list is endless

I am english and since you wish to comment on correct english please could you explain to me what on earth is a "typo?"

It can mean spelling errors, but the guy has made a few himself. SORRY, SORRY, l am not spelling police but as he is having a go at us English then really should have his own house in order (eh)..

you are number 2....an annoying little pedant...there is a difference between a typo and generally bad english and generally not knowing how to spell. inability to distinguish between the two is, i have found, a sign of stupidity.

I love cats and its great that you found her and by the way, how did you manage to find her or did she just come back home by herself?

.

Self-opinioated experts on Thai culuture annoy me , they are usually the ones praying (wai) inapppropriately at the locals & look really stupid , I feel embarrassed for them Why do so many people go on & on about how the Thais are this & that , maybe I'm cynical but there is nothing special about Thai people at all. It's just another country.

Good one, agree.. So thats now my number 9. For 10 I will add the tailors that try to shake my hand and speak with a fake accent 11. shop assistants that follow me around

1. People that spell Bhat (as in Thai Bhat) as "Bath". They remind me of the kind of people from the UK that say "five pound" instead of "five pounds". Both of these types of people have idiot eyes.

2. People that don't know thwe difference between a typo and genuinly bad spelling.

3. The discovery by the hordes of little places that were previously favourite haunts because they hadn't been descended on yet by the hordes. The hordes then force me to move on. Pattaya is a bit like that generally.

4. The sight of large, clumsy, ungainly falangs sitting at an outside table eating Thai food. There is something about them, their huge heads going up and down, their big mouths chewing away like cows, their bodies that are bit too large for the chairs and tables. I wish these people would stick to eating meat pies in bars and leave me to eat my kao man gai in peace.

5. Overly friendly conversaton from foreigners, could be falangs but can be others, towards Thai business vendors, when I know very well the Thai's are only interested in money and probably hate falangs. Once I hear all the "how are you, its been so long" blah blah blah and see the hand shaking I normally feel like vomiting. Do these guys really thing the Thai people running these businesses are their great friends? A friendly nod or hello will do.

6. Russians with shirts unbuttoned wandering around Mike Shopping Mall.

7. People who say they hate whingers

8. Whiny Australians that pretend to be all laid back etc etc

9...

10...

The list is endless

I am english and since you wish to comment on correct english please could you explain to me what on earth is a "typo?"

You need help with the meaning of typo? OK, here is some help for you and no doubt the next edition of the Oxford English Dictionary will contain an equivalent definition if the latest fversion doesn't already:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typographical_error