morphic

The day I stop visiting Thailand (already far less than I used to) will be when the scams extend to the things that can't be avoided or where so much has to be avoided that there is no longer any point, like staying in a hotel or having a beer at an average beer bar. Until then I think its sad to see what these vile "people" are getting away with, but its still the case that if you know the score you can avoid it. Its when you know the score but you can't avoid it that the game has to be over.

If the mayor or TAT were genuine I know there are simple measures they could take. Eg, distributing a leaflet with some of the major scams to everyone that checks in to a guest house or hotel. But they aren't genuine, for whatever reasons (greed, hatred of foreigners, fear?) they will do nothing and just smile about it all behind the foreigners backs. Its also sad that I have very little respect left now for the country, its people or its culture.

i believe the marriott hotel at the royal garden does have a warning sign about ski rental on the wall for guests at the beach road exit ( from their swimming pool garden area) which is at the north end of the royal garden plaza.

the other jet ski thread is currently on page 4 of this forum

good precedent and example then to justify to the tourist body or mayor's office for a leaflet in multiple languages to be handed to each checking in guest in all hotels and guest houses.

I still maintain that the best chance of fighting this offensive scam would be to encourage hotels and guest houses to provide a leaflet when guests check in that bullet point a short list of the biggest scams and dangers. The leaflet would be in multiple languages, probably just a single page of A4 size and distributed to the hotels by the tourist office or/and the mayor's office.

We could even create a draft here and forward to the tourist office or mayor's office, would be interesting to see if they respond. But it has to be properly written and the purpose made crystal clear.

The reason people get caught out is ignorance. Education would go a long way and an effective way would be a multi-language leaflet handed to checking in guests.

All visitors stay somewhere and the check in process is basically the same irrespective of where you stay whether it be a 5-star hotel or a budget guest house.

The websites etc, facebook etc, great but only a small percentage of people will ever see them.

Aikido is absurdly hierarchical, almost more of a cult, instructors demand to be worshipped, not merely respected. So ego based disputes between the instructor prima donnas throwing tantrums is something i've witnessed before with Aikido.

Personally I have zero interest in learning it and think Aikido is a waste of time, better to learn Judo or Jujitsu, same techniques, more or less, better attitude, infinitely better practice via sparring. In practical terms a Judo Green belt could probably beat the average Aikido black belt or higher Dan. That is because Judo is practiced against resistance in a highly competitive environment which balances safety with full power application. Aikido is just show, cooperation and role play.

It's kind of weird, I had Judo guys training Aikido under me and had the total opposite response from them.

Anyhow, those were actual martial arts practitioners ......

Talking about worship, none of my students worshiped me as an instructor neither did I asked for it.

All my students, regardless of grade, did call me by my name and not sensei or master.

However, that's past anyway

Fair points, wrong of me to generalise. Hope you manage to get started up again.

.. Does it make any sense to build a bridge to a tiny island for the sake of a few more 3-star hotels? ....

No, once they've done the maths this will be dropped, it makes no sense at all.

My friend, put on your Thai hat. Suspend sense, logic and all of the "educated" stuff you have been brainwashed with in the West. All you need to know is this: if the 3 star hotels/properties are owned by the right persons, they will build a bridge if that is their desire. I used to get severe headaches when I asked the "whys" and "hows"....since I stopped, so have the severe headaches and I am a much happier, laid back person.

Thinking about things doesn't give me a headache at all. Its like a fitness thing, some people can go on a 10 KM run and feel invigorated by it, others may flounder and run out of gas after the first 100 metres. If thinking tires your brain out quickly, give you a headache and make you all stressed, then I understand it may not be for you. I prefer to be educated than ignorant. By the way, education is about learning to think things through, brainwashing is the opposite. Thats the same whether in the West or the East, nothing mystical about it.

If what you were trying to say was "this place is really corrupt" then just say that. And in fact, you could be right and we might see a bridge.

It is funny to me when people equate Seagal with Aikido.

Why? Isn't he a high (?) dan black belt in Aikido?

and wasn't he a Aikido teacher before making movies?

And to come back to the subject, another place : http://www.aikido-pattaya.com/ near Big C Sukhumvit

Just want to let you guys know that Pattaya Aikikai Aikido has closed down due to some personal issues of the instructors.

Aikido is absurdly hierarchical, almost more of a cult, instructors demand to be worshipped, not merely respected. So ego based disputes between the instructor prima donnas throwing tantrums is something i've witnessed before with Aikido.

Personally I have zero interest in learning it and think Aikido is a waste of time, better to learn Judo or Jujitsu, same techniques, more or less, better attitude, infinitely better practice via sparring. In practical terms a Judo Green belt could probably beat the average Aikido black belt or higher Dan. That is because Judo is practiced against resistance in a highly competitive environment which balances safety with full power application. Aikido is just show, cooperation and role play.

Sounds like a pile of crap to me. Does it make any sense to build a bridge to a tiny island for the sake of a few more 3-star hotels? Its not like they would be connecting to a major industrial region or to what will become a large tourist area. If this was Singapore I could believe it, they would need the land, the island would be built all over in a decade or so and that would more than justify a bridge. But this is Pattaya, there is no shortage of land away from the beach and there just won't be the return on this huge investment needed.

No, once they've done the maths this will be dropped, it makes no sense at all.

And as for tourist numbers moving up more than 400% at the same time as the length of stay trebling, what is that projection based on?

My guess is this plan is just a marketing trick to persuade another bunch of suckers to buy some more real estate. After all, the property Ponzi scheme needs to be kept moving forward .

I totally agree with u that drink causes most fights and makes the aggressor braver than he would be if sober,however, u made the comment in reply to englishinsiam that 'pretty much every drunkin the bar feels safe',i was merely pointing out that he said he felt safe,due to his martial arts training,not on the account of being drunk.....

He implied that it was unusual to feel safe in a bar. I pointed out that was not the case as bars also have drunks in them, and drunks feel safe. At no time did I say or imply anything about his consumption of alcohol. He made it clear that his confidence came from Wing Chun. My concern is that a little confidence can be a dangerous thing, so in a thread where a beginner is looking for an effective system confidence versus empirical evidence needs to be addressed.

None of us would decline to use a condom just because our friends have told us stories of not doing so and being fine- or gain confidence from past unprotected encounters. We've all heard of Thai girls who seek to protect themselves from STDs with amulets- equally well grounded in mysticism and anecdote. These ladies have absolute confidence in the protection that these objects and rituals offer as well. We quote the science and the evidence and declare it foolishness. If mystic martial arts are "real" without video or forensic evidence then so are ghosts- and videoed "demonstrations" of some guy running around in a sheet credible proof that ghosts exist. Sensei, Sifu, Grandmaster, Monk whatever mystics decide to call themselves, just because they tell you something- does not make it so.

Why should a health risk of such overwhelming importance as physical assault be held to a less rigorous scientific standard? Would you try to get your blood pressure down by standing on leg and wiggling your ears just because some guy insists his teachers, teacher said it would work? Or would you see what professionals do, and what has empirical evidence to support it's efficacy?

Yes, points taken about misplaced confidence, especially when alcohol driven. Over confidence is always dangerous and I very much doubt WT would be effective against a capable attacker, or a group, or against weapons, not from what I've seen. But that doesn't mean it is useless, just not the most effective against a serious attacker.

Self-defence isn't always about fighting for your life, using potentially lethal techniques, braking limbs, striking in the weak points etc. I think its good to have a range of tools, to be able to react in a way that is proportionate. Also, what is effective in a gym when sparring against an opponent also versed and capable, doesn't always translate into a real life situation.

Sure, WT doesn't look effective compared to Jujitsu, Krav Maga etc. It wont work on the ground that's for sure. And it probably won't work against any serious attacker.

But, there may still be lessons to learn from it, perhaps little tricks of balance and blocking that could be just the right thing for a low level attacker that doesn't justify a full fledged attack.

I'm reminded of seeing endless footage of US policeman taking every person they encounter down in the same violent way, even frail and old people. Many of these police probably lack the finesse and knowledge to do anything else. They may not have a range of tools, just a single, very effective one that is overkill in most cases. To a person who only has a single tool, a hammer, every problem will look like a nail.

So, as I said before, I would be open to a few lessons in WT, just to see if there are any little techniques or tricks that may well be useful in certain circumstances.

Pretty much every drunk in the bar "feels safe" and thinks he can kick all the other guys asses. That's kind of the problem, there's no particular lack of self confidence going around once the liquor starts flowing.

englishinsiam merely said he felt safe in bars in pattaya,he never mentioned being drunk......im also english and feel safe too,and i dont drink.......

Thank you Parker - People like KMBKK seem to make assumptions that aren't there. hence my close in the Debate on the arts with him.

Perhaps a quote from the "Master" is in order: "Use only that which works, and take it from any place you can find it."--Bruce Lee

Ooops, I replied to the wrong person before:

Yes, good point. And as an example I wouldn't mind a few lessons in "sticky hands", just to see whether there is more to it than at first sight. Use of balance of sensing an opponents movement is very subtle and difficult to see, you have to feel it. Perhaps there are lessons in balance and sensitivity to learn, without having to dedicate too much time and without getting sucked into believing it is by itself an effective form of combat or self-defence compared to the others discussed here.

I have only ever been on one bar fight and that was a decade ago when I was attacked, when drunk, by a big drunk American. I had at that time learned just a little Japanese Jujitsu and as this guy charged I used a simple technique, a beginners when, not aggressively at all, to take his balance and bring him to the ground. He wasn't hurt, I didn't continue, the fight ended almost before it began. He wasn't a dangerous type really, just a big drunk and certainly not a martial arts type. The point is I was able to react in a measured way because I had learned a few different techniques. The more you know, the more appropriate your response can be. Imagine if all I had known was Krav Maga, maybe I would have gone balistic with elbows and knees, inflicting unnecessary damage, maybe ending up in jail myself.

I have known people to use very dangerous techniques on people who were really not a danger, a few blocks would have sufficed, not breaking a jaw and knocking someones teeth out. I actually hate violence, it is truly horrible, I hate the idea of actually breaking another human being, unless they happen top be truly evil or to be a serious danger. Violence also scares me. So for me, its about being proportionate, not a thug. There is a big difference between staying fit and enjoying sparring/rabdori/ground fighting in a gym and fighting in the street which is just plain ugly.

So perhaps sticky hands is more practical in low level situations where you really just need to neutralise a low level attack, rather than throw/strike/break. We don't always need the most devastating method, but we always need an appropriate one.

Thank you Parker - People like KMBKK seem to make assumptions that aren't there. hence my close in the Debate on the arts with him.

What assumption? That drunks have little fear, hence confidence alone is a poor qualification for a martial art if the same can be found at the bottom of a pint glass?

Pretty much every drunk in the bar "feels safe" and thinks he can kick all the other guys asses. That's kind of the problem, there's no particular lack of self confidence going around once the liquor starts flowing.

You really read this as an insult? Either against you, or Englishmen? I have don't problem with a lively discussion- and defended TMA including aspects of WC articulately from several point of views where the historical record supports them. I don't mind if you are getting bored with it, but you chose to take insult where clearly none was offered and use me, instead of simple lack of interest (or evidence) as an excuse to remove yourself. Poor form.

Yes, good point. And as an example I wouldn't mind a few lessons in "sticky hands", just to see whether there is more to it than at first sight. Use of balance of sensing an opponents movement is very subtle and difficult to see, you have to feel it. Perhaps there are lessons in balance and sensitivity to learn, without having to dedicate too much time and without getting sucked into believing it is by itself an effective form of combat or self-defence compared to the others discussed here.

I have only ever been on one bar fight and that was a decade ago when I was attacked, when drunk, by a big drunk American. I had at that time learned just a little Japanese Jujitsu and as this guy charged I used a simple technique, a beginners when, not aggressively at all, to take his balance and bring him to the ground. He wasn't hurt, I didn't continue, the fight ended almost before it began. He wasn't a dangerous type really, just a big drunk and certainly not a martial arts type. The point is I was able to react in a measured way because I had learned a few different techniques. The more you know, the more appropriate your response can be. Imagine if all I had known was Krav Maga, maybe I would have gone balistic with elbows and knees, inflicting unnecessary damage, maybe ending up in jail myself.

I have known people to use very dangerous techniques on people who were really not a danger, a few blocks would have sufficed, not breaking a jaw and knocking someones teeth out. I actually hate violence, it is truly horrible, I hate the idea of actually breaking another human being, unless they happen top be truly evil or to be a serious danger. Violence also scares me. So for me, its about being proportionate, not a thug. There is a big difference between staying fit and enjoying sparring/rabdori/ground fighting in a gym and fighting in the street which is just plain ugly.

So perhaps sticky hands is more practical in low level situations where you really just need to neutralise a low level attack, rather than throw/strike/break. We don't always need the most devastating method, but we always need an appropriate one.

I saw one last week helping himself to water bottles, bananas and assorted fruits from the Buddha altar next to the Banyan tree on walking street!

Not in Pattaya at the moment, but the last time I was I would often see a very tall man, of probable African descent but with an American accent I think, begging outside the 7-11 on 2nd Road on the corner of Soi Honey Inn.

In fact, yes, I've seen a number of Western beggars. Do they come over and just run out of money, unable to go home for whatever reason, or is there more to it?

I'm not sure what to think. On the one hand they should have known better and they make us foreigners look bad etc etc, on the other there but for the grace of God go I etc.

It may be called Krav Maga, or Isreali Jujitsu, but it is basically fast and aggressive Japanese Jujitsu and this guy is very very good...I would put my money on him versus WT...

I did Japanese Jujitsu for a couple of years before moving and changing to Judo as that is what was available. I wish I remembered it all, a lot of the techniques were very effective although we didn't train with this level of intensity, at least not at my level.

OK, sounds like Sityodtong is the only consistently recommended gym so far...any others?

Anyway, I am also skeptical of any style that doesn't involve competitive sparring and resistance. I also think sparring and resistance are a lot of fun and a very good way to stay fit and learn how to improve. So, my preferences would be Judo (try throwing against resistance and against someone who knows Judo and then you will begin to really learn how to throw/sweep/lock...practice against a cooperative and non-resistance "opponent" and you delude yourself...dangerous), BJJ (like Judo but much better once on the ground), Western boxing (wish I was younger and quicker), Muay Thai (if properly taught, not just smacking a pad endlessly) or even Krav Maga if I didn't think it was a rip off. Japanese Jujitsu would be fine too, as long as they are realistic, some of the techniques are amazing.

With any of these though you have to have safe training partners, as soon as I think a training partner will act in an irresponsible or uncontrolled manner, I back off...some of the techniques can kill/paralyze etc and a safe and civilized training environment is essential.

All this Wing Chun or WT stuff seems a bit silly to me. What happens when I get in close enough to sweep his legs away, as in Judo? And if all this sticky hands stuff works, why don't boxers use it, surely they would apply it to boxing? I've met some in the past and in sparring as soon as I just went in with a barrage of (soft) punches the black belt in this stuff went to pieces, he just seemed overwhelmed and couldn't respond and I promise you I was barely touching him, just that it was quite quick and continuous and I'm far from good at any of this stuff so this is really saying something.

Yes, well, blocking kicks with your hand doesn't seem sensible, good way to get a broken arm/hand/fingers.

The thing about Muay Thai in Pattaya is it isn't really a question of what footwork/strategy/strikes/throws should be taught, its that all I ever see is a Thai instructor holding a pad and a falang kicking it and making a loud slapping sound and frankly, that is just a waste of time, apart from for fitness or preparing for a competition (not relevant to me or to 99% of people who want to train). No point in paying to just kick a pad as hard as you can.

The U-tube videos were good, I know that stand up method (actually I incorporate it into my work out routine) and I used to know the head lock escapes (from Japanese Jujitsu) and watching the videos made me aware I've forgotten some really useful stuff and want to train some more.

Would think BJJ would be fine and would like to do more but Sityodtong is one of those places that are really far away, isn't there anything more central?

So can anybody recommend a good place to train Ju-Jitsu in Pattaya?

Try the Gym on Pattaya Klang they do various Martial Arts there. I know they do the trendy MMA offshoots there so probably some Jiu Jitsu too.

Are you talking about the place owned by a guy calling himself Sifu, hosting/awarding world championships in a type of martial arts only practiced in his place and in his spare time driving around Pattaya in a yellow Hummer with the word SWAT on the side?

Any other places you can think off?

Yes, thats the place and thats him. And as far as I can tell he is a very capable man and has achieved a lot. I've been to his gym a few times and its pretty good and there are a lot or very capable martial artists there, certainly far better than I am. Anyway, they do Muay Thai and his brand of King <deleted> (which I have never done but it like a mix of strikes, locks and throws).

Otherwise I just know of Fairtex but as I said, that is very expensive and very commercial.

Do people know of other places?

And getting back to the original purpose of the thread, what isn available in Pattaya and where is it and is it any good?

I know the place on Pattaya Klang, they do Muay Thai and a variety of Kung <deleted> that mixes up strikes, locks and throws etc.

Then there is Fairtex in North Pattaya, they do Muay Thai and maybe others but their prices are extremely high.

Any others?

"Charge at someone who knows what they're doing with an elbow and you will lose. "

Who who ever charge at somebody with their elbow?

By the way, where do you train "WT"? In Pattaya?

I wish there was somewhere in Pattaya to do some Judo, not because I think its good for self-defence, but because its fun and great for all round fitness and conditioning. Pity it doesn't seem to exist in Pattaya. (Combined with some striking skill I do think its good for self-defence by the way, but the best self-defence is still to run at the first sight of trouble)

In general all I ever see in Pattaya is Muay Thai but for most falang that seems to involve making loud slapping sounds on a pad held by the Thai instructor, great for fitness but probably not much more.

If you wish to train to defend against street/bar fights,you cannot beat Krav Maga,it takes many of the best parts of other martial arts and uses them to create a devastating self defense mechanism.....strikes to the throat,eyes,groin etc using feet,hands,elbows,knees....the idea being if attacked,burst in and totally devastate the attacker as quickly as possible...it isnt pretty,but i works and the hope is you go home in one piece and your attacker doesnt....also a great cv workout.....try it....

The trouble is Krav Maga is by far the most expensive martial art to learn, very commercial and a rip off in my opinion. And since it is basically Muay Thai with a little Judo/Jujitsu thrown in, why not learn Muay Thai and Judo/Jujitsu for a tenth of the cost. Once you know a little of these, Krav Maga basically looks like a sort of burst of basic attacks from these more fundamental disciplines. In fact, it looks like angry Muay Thai + angry Judo/Jujitsu, i.e., psyche yourself up into a rage, elbow, knee, smash, sweep as much as you can and then run. I've never done Krav Maga, so I could be wrong, but based on what I've seen that is what it is.

PattayaParent:

"Break even is a cash neutral position and if you have residual value in the property after 30 years and realise that value then that would normally be called the return on investment, or profit. "

I think I see where you are going wrong now. First, try to get your head around the idea of definition and context, if I tell you the definition I'm using then you have to try accept that definition as opposed to substituting your own and move on with the logic that follows. Secondly, what you fail to understand is the cost of funding your investment and/or the lost opportunity cost of investing elsewhere. Read and understand the actual post as opposed to taking individual sentences out of context and you may learn something.

I'm amazed I really need to repeat myself again.

I defined the number of years taken to recoup principal as breakeven. I don't care whether you are confused by the use of the term, but I defined it, I made it clear I was defining it that way. Its not a declaration or a premise, its a definition. I could call it anything I like, but I decided to call it "breakeven" as that should make sense to most people given the context. Selling at the breakeven point for the original cost is just an example. It might be zero, you might have to leave the country and lose it, your wife might steal it. The point is no matter what happens to the value of the property in 30 years you will have recouped the cost, assuming constant rent, by then.

Now do you, finally, get it?

And do you now get that a definition and a premise are not the same thing?

So if an investor sells the property after 20 years for the same price he paid for it he's made a loss on his investment?

No, if the breakeven is 30 years as in the example then after 30 years the rent (minus expenses) has paid for the property. This assumes he is a cash buyer. So if he started with 2 million baht in his account and used that to buy the condo then 30 years later that emptied account will have 2 million baht in it again and he will still own the condo, which is now 30 years older.

So in absolute terms the buyer has made something but in real terms not much. The buyer has essentially doubled his money after 30 years, assuming the condo could then be sold for 2 million again. But, this may be a very bad profit. That is because alternative investments may have yielded far more. In fact, taking the last 30 years as an example, buying US Treasury bonds and reinvesting the coupons (average yield 7%) would have resulted in the original 2 million growing by 800% to 16 million. Or, investing in the Dow Jones and reinvesting the dividend would have resulted in about the same.

The question is what will provide the best return over time, buying the condo and collecting the rent or renting and investing in something else.

Over the past 10 years property has performed very well and lots of people assume it will always do that. But the past 10-20 years has been very unusual and it is quite possible property may now under perform. My view is that unless you find something that is really special then investing in Pattaya is probably a bad idea. For one thing prices seem very high. But also the quality seems very low and selling older properties in the resale market can be very hard unless the seller is willing to make big cuts compared to general asking prices.

So he's not at breakeven point after 30 years, he's really doubled his money.

I defined breakeven for you within this context, its the numbers of years of rental it takes to cover the principal cost of purchase. Not sure I can make this any simpler for you.

I gave the example of a cash buyer and I didn't factor in the interest or other investment returns he would have lost having used his capital that way. I tried to give you examples showing what a terrible investment it would be if after 30 years he sold for the same as he purchased it for but that seems to have gone in one ear and out the other, or just over your head entirely.

So here is one more attempt, although I imagine you will get the wrong end of the stick again and after that I will just ignore you, no further point in attempting sensible discourse.

So, if he borrowed the money to buy and paid interest over those years he would have lost a huge amount of money, even though he would have recouped the original purchase capital.

Or, if he used his own capital then he would have lost hugely compared to having invested at the available risk free rates.

Either way, in this case, he has lost hugely.

So, to actually break even in real terms, i.e., a dollar 30 years ago compared to a dollar now in purchasing power terms, he needs to sell the property at hundreds of % higher than he bought it for.

So if an investor sells the property after 20 years for the same price he paid for it he's made a loss on his investment?

No, if the breakeven is 30 years as in the example then after 30 years the rent (minus expenses) has paid for the property. This assumes he is a cash buyer. So if he started with 2 million baht in his account and used that to buy the condo then 30 years later that emptied account will have 2 million baht in it again and he will still own the condo, which is now 30 years older.

So in absolute terms the buyer has made something but in real terms not much. The buyer has essentially doubled his money after 30 years, assuming the condo could then be sold for 2 million again. But, this may be a very bad profit. That is because alternative investments may have yielded far more. In fact, taking the last 30 years as an example, buying US Treasury bonds and reinvesting the coupons (average yield 7%) would have resulted in the original 2 million growing by 800% to 16 million. Or, investing in the Dow Jones and reinvesting the dividend would have resulted in about the same.

The question is what will provide the best return over time, buying the condo and collecting the rent or renting and investing in something else.

Over the past 10 years property has performed very well and lots of people assume it will always do that. But the past 10-20 years has been very unusual and it is quite possible property may now under perform. My view is that unless you find something that is really special then investing in Pattaya is probably a bad idea. For one thing prices seem very high. But also the quality seems very low and selling older properties in the resale market can be very hard unless the seller is willing to make big cuts compared to general asking prices.

I bought a modest 2-bedroom Jomtien condo 6.5 years ago (late 2004) for B1.3m primarily as a residence but also as a potential investment.

I spent about another ~B500,000 on renovations. Yeah, probably paid on the high side, but got things done to my satisfaction using a western contractor and satisfied my western sensibilties: installed a kitchen where there was none, combined two small Thai bathrooms into a large western-type one, moved doorways, concealed electrical wiring in the walls, accommodated a washer and dryer, new ceramic tiles floors, etc. The only real regret was that I didn't rewire the place totally and run a ground/earth wire down.

About a month ago I sold it for B1.8m. So, on appearances a "wash."

But, if I had paid B13,000/month rent for 6.5 years, what would I have to show for that ~B1m now? Would the quality of a place at that price have met my standards like my custom-altered condo?

The B1.8m I paid in 2004-2005 was about US$50,000. B1.8m today is about US$60,000, thanks to US$ drop. If I were to pull up stakes and return to farangland, that's a consideration.

There are many ways of looking at a given situation, even financial transactions, and deciding whether they are/were worthwhile. Value is subjective, not objective, and I have few regrets with my past 6.5 years of condo ownership in Thailand. Even though about a year after I bought it, there were (inferior, IMHO) units in my building selling for between B2.5m and 3.0m, and I had to compromise and sell it at B1.8m several years later.

It's somewhat about perspective, and a lot about luck.

Who said your condo would be rented for 13,000? That was the other guy. On average since 2004 it might have been half that.

But well done, excluding transaction costs you managed to breakeven on your property, you must have found a sucker to buy it from you but that is exactly what the Pattaya property market is about...finding suckers to sell to.

This thread makes an interesting read. The should I buy / rent dilemma is pertinent to me as I have decided to settle here after numerous visits and now a year, more or less full-time, here.

I pay rent of 13K per month for a 55 sq.m., one bedroom condo in Central Pattaya. This building is exactly where I want to be; between Beach and 2nd Rd and a stones throw from The Avenue complex. I guess a similar condo would cost approx 3 million THB according to some of the adverts in the local newspapers, perhaps a bit more.

Keeping things simple (i.e. not allowing for rent inflation or appreciation of a purchased condo or long-term currency fluctuations), that capital cost equates to almost 20 years of renting ! I think I would be mad to buy at the moment, or in the near future.

Simon

Its worse than that:

By the time you've factored in the transfer tax, business tax, yearly property taxes, condo maintenance fees, extra costs of fixing things that owners need to pay for, renovations blah blah blah you would probably find its more like 30 years of rent to breakeven.

The only way it makes sense to buy is if you believe in significant capital appreciation.

the problem with this is that you have not factored in any rental increases over the 20/30 years. Also, provided your property has some residual value left after the 20/30 years it will not be a break even point since the renter has nothing.

Umm, a breakeven point is the numbers of years of renting it out a landlord would need in order to breakeven on his investment. In this case the answer is 30. You seem to have some problem with making mathematically watertight and properly defined statements. or is it that you don't understand them?

And as I and the poster I responded to said, we are excluding rental inflation and capital appreciation. But we are also excluding the lost opportunity cost of using capital to make the purchase. There is no reason to think the appreciation on the capital invested elsewhere would not be more this condo. It could be far, far more and far safer.

This thread makes an interesting read. The should I buy / rent dilemma is pertinent to me as I have decided to settle here after numerous visits and now a year, more or less full-time, here.

I pay rent of 13K per month for a 55 sq.m., one bedroom condo in Central Pattaya. This building is exactly where I want to be; between Beach and 2nd Rd and a stones throw from The Avenue complex. I guess a similar condo would cost approx 3 million THB according to some of the adverts in the local newspapers, perhaps a bit more.

Keeping things simple (i.e. not allowing for rent inflation or appreciation of a purchased condo or long-term currency fluctuations), that capital cost equates to almost 20 years of renting ! I think I would be mad to buy at the moment, or in the near future.

Simon

Its worse than that:

By the time you've factored in the transfer tax, business tax, yearly property taxes, condo maintenance fees, extra costs of fixing things that owners need to pay for, renovations blah blah blah you would probably find its more like 30 years of rent to breakeven.

The only way it makes sense to buy is if you believe in significant capital appreciation.