hastings

As for me I am an attorney, and relatively well off. Again,I hope this clears up some misconceptions and puts the post in context.

not really Hastings. assuming the above mentioned information is correct my question is "then what's the big fuss about spending 25k (or more) dollars?"

after all you marry only once in your lifetime

Quick answer, my post was not meant as a big fuss. You are right this is (and hopefully will be) my only marriage. More importantly, it is my fiancées only wedding (and to be honest, she wants to be treated like a princess on her special day which I understand).

I had spoken to some friends (Thai and US) who told me they thought the wedding estimates were high for Thailand. Since I had no experience with a Thai wedding, an Issan wedding, or general costs in Issan, I wanted to get some comments. I also knew little about sin sot, gifts of livestock, Thai traditions, Issan culture,etc. Again, I just wanted some comments. Boy did I get comments. 5K, 10K, 25K, 50K -- the money itself is not that important. That said, I am not completely foolish with my money. If the costs were so over the top for that area that they would be unconscionable, then I would have had an issue. As it was, people commented that the numbers were high, I talked to the fiancée, and some changes (based on some of the comments here) were made although the wedding is still expensive for the area (but not out of line). Weddings I have attended in the US lately have been 10x the cost or more. Bottom line, I wanted to know what I asked: were the estimates out of line.

More good news, she apparently owns several rai of farmland, and has built a small western style house (yes, I will probably pay for some improvements (especially if I decide that I will eventually retire to Thailand) and I realize I will be up **** creek if we eventually part ways).

Do you mean her ex-farang used to own (and now she does) several Ari of land with the fa rang house ?

Thats alto of money you are paying for a 'second hand' bride(no disrespect intended). No Thai man would ever be asked to, and would never pay for this situation.

But like others have said, if you have the money to blow and you dint care then throw it away. Next time you wanna blow a load of cash you'll never see again. Give it to charity at least it will go to good use!!!

Good luck

No, I meant what I said. Why is it always the people that say "no disrespect intended, " that state the most disrespectful things. She is not a second hand bride, but you seem to be a first hand ass. While no explanation is needed, she purchased the land from her grandmother at a family discount, and the land has been in her family for decades. As I have explained before, my fiancée is well educated and has made a lot of money as a result. She built the house, not an "ex-farang." It's a modern house because she is a modern girl. If I were to put some money into the house, I would find a way to recoup the money spent through my US taxes and LLCs (I have a great tax attorney). Notwithstanding even if I could not, she will be my wife and if the money spent makes her happy it is well worth it -- not charity. I would exchange a little money for a happy wife every time.

As for the chip on your shoulder (i.e., "no Thai man would be asked ...," or in a later past "Farang in thai as we all know have to keep our eye open for scams..."), you demonstrate a palpable lack of self worth. Why do you care whether you, as a farang, are treated like a Thai man? I have heard countless farang guys in Thailand make similar complaints, yet I have never heard a one of them state that they would be willing to trade places with a Thai man. As for women scamming men when it comes to marriage or relationships, that is not a concept exclusive to Thailand (despite the protestations of many persons on this board who seem to forget about the reasons for break-ups and growing percentage of divorces in their own countries). Certainly, you have had a positive experience with a woman, Thai or otherwise, who did not try to scam you. If not, I guess it puts your comments in perspective.

BTW good luck with the B50k wedding, I am certain you will make your bride very happy.

UPDATE: Thought this string was dead. Thanks for all the kind words and meaningful advice. Now that I have it, I will do what I intended to do in the first place (isn't that what people that go on these forums are supposed to do, lol). Seriously, we are getting married at the end of April, and everything is arranged. The expansive wedding will now cost as follows: 2-4 cows gift to in-laws (instead of 10 buffalo as drought conditions have apparently worked in my favor) about B35-50k or USD $1500; outfits and photos from BKK photographer still B40 -50k or USD $1,500 (had approved those previously); 4-5 baht gold (no diamond for US wedding saving myself $$$$ on the US phase of wedding) about B50k about USD $1,500; Wedding reception in village auditorium 75-100 people about B35k or USD $1,000 (costs less because people decreased and no longer being robbed by hotel). Total B160k to B185k or $5-6,000 USD. Still bringing B150-200k in show money (all still to be returned) to keep up appearances.

So approximately half of original estimates. Still a lot based on comments here (but I can readily afford it, and it will make her happy on "her" special day). Plus, expenses I thought I would have for US Wedding are far less when the ring is excluded (she does not want one). According to male friends in my profession they have paid from $10,000 to $40,000 based on a bs formula of two months salary (and I was probably going to have to "keep up with the Jones" so to speak). I am lucky to escape that trap. Now I am only stuck with costs of a civil ceremony and reception (which my friends say that they will cover). Life is good right now.

More good news, she apparently owns several rai of farmland, and has built a small western style house (yes, I will probably pay for some improvements (especially if I decide that I will eventually retire to Thailand) and I realize I will be up **** creek if we eventually part ways).

I am young, dress well, teach at a prestigous english school and no taxi has ever asked to take me to a massage. are you sure you dont hang out in the lower sukhumwit sous when this is happening? how are you dressed? like i said, i dress perfessional and i am young and good looking etc

you also seem very smug. glad to hear things are going well for you.

You are correct that the quoted poster is much too smug. Apparently he believes that he is a better person than those persons that choose to see Nana (although he has failed to make the case with a reasoned argument or evidence as being well dressed barely qualifies). I am more concerned that he is teaching English in Thailand. His grammar and spelling are atrocious. Sadly, he seems to be yet another example of the failures of western teachers in Thailand. It is obvious that Thai schools will allow almost anyone to teach. I hope that his students at the “prestigious English school” rely on their textbooks rather than his instruction if this post is an indication of his English skills.

As for his arguments, age and how you are dressed should not make a difference as to whether the taxi driver uses a meter. It could be argued that a cabbie might more readily attempt to scam someone that is either young or better dressed based on the assumption that such a passenger lacks experience and has more money than the average fare. Without more substance to the arguments, I would suggest that TV readers observe the other advice on this topic.

I personally use taxis in Bangkok as a little as possible.

Bangkok, like most large cities, is a magnet for con artists, scam artists and the like.

that is just silly. taxis in bangkok are generally hassle free

Not the typical story, but it actually happened and was not "hassle free."

During my last stay in Bangkok I caught a cab on a Saturday night from the "meter-taxi" line at at the Conrad where I was staying. I was going to meet friends in Nana which was a 40b cab ride. Once we took off through the parking lot, the cabbie turned around, turned off the meter, and told me that the ride would be 500b. I insisted on the meter, and stated that he should return me to the Conrad if he was not going to use it. Claiming not to speak English, he then asked for 300b. I again insisted on the meter or a return to where I was picked up. His response was to stop the car and try to kick me out. Seeing no upside I decided I would comply. However, before existing I told him that he should not pick up passengers at a line designated for metered taxis, and muttered that he was acting like an a**hole. His English skills had apparently improved because he took great offense to my use of that term. He jumped out of the taxi, swung open the passenger door,and grabbed me. I told him to let go and pushed his hands away. When I stood up outside the taxi, he pushed me. My response, of which I am not particularly proud, was to drop him with a punch to the jaw. He got up, swung at me again, and I dropped him again. At this point another cab stopped and the driver was watching. I started to walk away and the cab driver attacked me again, same result. The cab driver then went to his trunk and I ran.

I later, contacted the police (at the insistence of my Thai girlfriend), but to my knowledge nothing ever happened (before getting into the taxi the doorman at the Conrad gives the passenger a paper with the cab number written on it).

I am just lucky that the driver did not use a weapon (who knows what was in the trunk), the other cab driver only watched, and the police did not try to arrest me based on my report.

This was the first real problem I have had with a taxi (or for that matter with anyone in Thailand) in more than 15 trips. While I still take cabs, I make sure that they agree to the meter before I shut the door. Again, not typical but "hassles" do occur.

It is unfair to get a cab which has been waiting in a queue and expect to use the meter unless you are going to somewhere like Pattaya.

nonsense

I agree utter nonsense. You should read the post thoroughly. Your argument that I should not expect a "meter" in a queue unless it is a long trip is ridiculous generally, and even more dumbfounding when the facts are examined here.

I expected a meter because the Conrad does not allow taxis to queue that are not going to use the meter. The hotel has a sign that states that its taxi queue is for "metered" fares (they do this for the benefit of their guests so that they can avoid this type of negotiation). The doorman speaks to the cabbie regarding the destination and meter.

I expected a meter because the cabbie in this instance turned on the meter when he picked me up as the fare, and as the doorman told him my destination. If he did not know the meter was required, he would not have turned it on initially. Only after we left the Conrad did the cabbie turn off the meter. Then he tried to inflate the price demanding 12x the cost of the 2km fare.

This was not a case of dealing with the "taxi mafia" lined up on the street outside a hotel awaiting a fare to Pattaya or otherwise. The queue was to the entrance of the hotel not on the street (it is more similar to the line at the airport where the line moves along without any negotiation as guests depart, as opposed to the guys waiting and turning down fares until they find the one with the biggest payout). I avoided the street and the mafia intentionally.

Leading American brands want Thailand to be on Priority Watch List

Leading American brands Levi, Marlboro and LM, the Cable Broadcasting Satellite Association of Asia and the American Apparel and Footwear Association have urged the US government to downgrade Thailand to its Priority Watch List, citing worsening counterfeiting, according to the US Trade Representative's recent report.

Thailand is currently categorised in the Watch List as making limited progress in suppressing intellectual property violations. The USTR will announce its revision of the intellectual property violation grouping in April.

If Thailand is moved from the Watch List to the Priority Watch List, it would face difficulties when the USTR considers the country's status in the US' Generalised System of Preferences and other trade retaliation practices.

In the letter submitted to the USTR, Levi Strauss & Co, one of the world's largest brandname apparel marketers, said the piracy problem in Thailand is severe. The situation is hurting its local and international business. It said the Kingdom serves as a manufacturing base for imitation goods, and is a leading exporter of those goods.

-- The Nation 2007-02-27

It would be interesting to know how many of these products are made in Thailand. My firm in the UK sells (Realtree) clothing and they ARE made here!

The difference being that it's OK to exploit low paid workers if you have a big brand name, but it is not OK to exploit the brand name so that the low paid workers can afford to buy the products (or copies of them) that they make!!

It's in the nature of a business to make a profit, and further, to maximize that profit. This is done by selling goods and services at a price point that optimizes revenue and by controlling production costs. In view of the latter, it's common to move manufacturing to places where production costs are lower. While there are occasional high-profile cases of worker abuse, on the whole international manufacturing concerns pay a wage slightly higher than average for that trade and offer somewhat better than average industrial conditions versus local concerns. Whether they do this voluntarily as good corporate citizens or under duress from government, media and social activists in their home country and primary markets is irrelevant. It is not exploitation, it is opportunity, and the overseas workforce is (again except in exceptional cases of abuse) free to decline those jobs and seek other employment.

There is no absolutely no relevance in that to the misuse and misappropriation of a brand name. Neither is that exploitation; it is theft. Anyone holding the contrary view will find themselves opposed by the entire body of international copyright, trademark and intellectual property law. On a less esoteric plane, a major brand such as Levis, has invested literally hundreds of millions of dollars worldwide to establish a reputation for their goods and also to position them, in many cases, as a lifestyle choice. Counterfeiters who produce an inferior product undermine consumer good will and trust in the brand, and are free-riding on the investment in advertising and promotion the manufacturer has made.

As a larger social issue, can anyone credibly claim that the average worker will likely enjoy a higher salary and better workplace conditions in a shop that makes counterfeit goods? What is more, black market goods travel through an irregular distribution channel and thereby avoid most taxation, weakening the tax base and inhibiting social spending and development programs by government. Furthermore, large scale counterfeiting, at least as regards physical goods, is inseparable from official corruption and organized crime. To embrace or even defend counterfeit goods is to encourage a non-democratic and non-representative power structure which works against the good of the common worker as an individual and his society as a whole.

Well stated. I was wondering if anyone was going to point out the obvious flaws with the "exploitation" argument. First, that the workers making the counterfeit goods were less exploited than those manufacturing the original goods. Second, that counterfeiting somehow allowed the exploited workers to afford to buy "copies." Third, that an exploited worker would spend their sweatshop money on "originals" or "copies" in either event. Fourth, that the manufacturer of counterfeit goods has a motivation other than profit. Finally, that any such profit is anything other than theft.

I am not a novice (having traveled to Thailand on business over 15 times and lived there for the equivalent of three years).

It is appropriate to insist that you be taken to your destination and that the meter be utilized, once the cab driver has taken you away from the pick up spot. If he decides not to do so, then insist on being returned, and if not insist on being let out.

I'm sure that hastings has far more experience with Thai ways than I may ever have. So I'm quite willing to read carefully and think about what he writes. Yet it seems strange to me that hasting's behavior (as he himself described) and his comments (as quoted above) seem so far out of line with everything I have observed and learned about Thai culture.

In a previous post, hastings described punching a Thai three times. Yes, hastings is not proud of doing that, but still, by his own admission he did that, and that causes me to have serious doubts about his understanding of Thai culture after 15 visits and three years of stay here.

In that quote above, hastings says, "insist ... insist ... and if not insist". I wish I would watch hastings in operation -- from a distance, of course -- because from everything I have observed about Thailand, insisting usually gets the opposite result from that which is insisted upon. That's the Thai way. Most long-stay expats here know that and behave accordingly with the Thais. And, I must add, especially with the Thai taxi drivers. And those Thai taxi drivers who are operating meter scame are especially volitile and are best handled very carefully. I very much doubt that insisting is the way to get where you want to go with them. But then, again, I have not yet had the opportunity to observe hastings in action. Perhaps it is I who still have much to learn about dealing with the Thais.

My purpose in writing this is not to castigate Mr. Hastings. I'm sure he means well and I, for one, appreciate the vivid detail he puts into his writing, which is very helpful for clearly understanding the situation. Instead, my purpose is for the benefit of those readers who have little or no experience with Bangkok taxis. In my years here, I have observed that insisting on anything with Thai people simply doesn't work. I draw some support for this view from Rudyard Kipling. I'll copy-paste from one of his works below. It may provide useful advice for other readers of this thread who are seeking useful information about dealing with Thai behavior in general, and Thai taxi drivers in particular.

"The Naulahka"

Rudyard Kipling (1865-1936)

(excerpt)

Now it is not good for the Christian's health to hustle the Aryan brown.

For the Christian riles, and the Aryan smiles and he weareth the Christian down;

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased,

And the epitaph drear: "A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East."

I think you misread or misunderstood my post. This had nothing to do with Thai Culture or dealing with Thais. My cab driver was a thug, plain and simple. He could just as easily been a cabbie in New York or London. Acting as a thug is not characteristically Thai (and as such not an issue of Thai Culture). It was thug culture.

Nor was it about understanding Thais. Rather, it was about self defense. The physical altercation started with the Thai cabbie grabbing me, it escalated when I was exiting the cab and he pushed me. The punch on my part was to defend myself as his punch thereafter was certainly coming. My other two punches resulted from him attacking me again. I ask Mr. Oneman, once the cabbie started getting physical, would he simply have taken the beating? If his answer is yes, then he does indeed have something to learn (although I am not certain that it will be a lesson in life to be given solely by Thais). When I stated that I was not particularly proud of the situation, it was a reflection of the fact that I had cursed and that there was physical violence not that it was improper violence on my part (although, again, if you are being assaulted defend yourself). While I am generally a pacifist, the violence I doled out was appropriate and measured (and as originally stated prelude to me running away when it was safe to do so).

As for the comments based on the paraphrased quote "insist, insist and if not insist," you failed to understand my point. The reason you insist is to get the cabbie to take you to your destination, if he will not then insist on being returned, if he will not insist on being let out of the cab. His job is to drive you for a proper fare. The insistence is to let the cabbie know that you are serious and not simply a tourist to be pushed around (the cabbie knows that the law is on your side as he is not supposed to refuse your carriage which brings up the issue of whether he will follow the law). Thus, the three distinct requests I advocate each of which is less favorable than the former. BTW, insisting is being firm (not yelling or threatening since there is a difference).

As for advice to new travelers to Bangkok, telling them to get out of a cab under these circumstances is not very sound. Once the cabbie has driven you from your starting point, being let out of the cab becomes far more dangerous than being taken to your destination or returned to the place of embarkation. Few foreigners, my self included, are familiar enough with Bangkok or fluent enough in Thai to be dropped off in an unfamiliar spot without risk. This is true whether you are miles or blocks from where you were supposed to be taken. Certainly, I feel safer in familiar surroundings, and it is worth the risk to ask.

Finally,while I am generally an admirer of Mr. Kipling's writings (they are after all classics in some sense) they were written from the perspective of an Englishman during England's colonial period. The concept of English superiority (read white) and views of "brown" people espoused during that time period were likely inapplicable then, and certainly suspect now. As I recall (and as evidenced by the quote), Mr. Kipling espoused the popular view of Asians during that period that while Asians generally have an apparent lack of backbone they are smiling assassins waiting for the chance to strike. Insulting to say the least. Having dealt with Thai people of most social classes in a variety of jobs, it has been my experience that they are knowledgeable of their job's requirements but are often unwilling to perform as required without prompting (often choosing to take shortcuts). As long as you are not insisting that they do more than that which is actually required, insisting on performance of their job generally works well. In this case insisting was entirely appropriate. I cannot comment on the actual experiences that have led you to promote such basic stereotypes about Thai people (i.e., that insisting never works as a Thai will do the opposite). Perhaps, you were hanging out with Mr. Dave when he learned that all Thais are trained in Muay Thai fighting.

If you mean the taxis hanging around hotels saying you need taxi mister – then yes, run like hel_l.

Right, Furbie, that is what I meant, but, thank you for repeating it, because those are the taxis that, invariably, cause problems for unwitting passengers.

Happened to me in front of the Sangria-La, and in front of the Royal Orchid Sheraton.

Five star or not?

You can decide.

As for taxis that drive up to the hotel entrance where the doorman, in his fancy uniform, opens the door as I get in, that's never been a problem.

Not yet.

Those taxis always put on the meter before they leave the hotel driveway.

And I always tip the doorman.

But many visitors and expats aren't using 5-star hotels with doormen who write down the license numbers.

Those folks depend on taxis on the street.

And that's where the problems start: meter or no meter, and overcharging scams.

I appreciate your critique, however I am not a novice (having traveled to Thailand on business over 15 times and lived there for the equivalent of three years). Did I make mistakes... of course I did as acknowledged in my post.

That said, the problem was with a driver that pulled up to the "hotel entrance where the doorman, in his fancy uniform, opens the door as I get in." Similar to yourself, I have never before had a problem when leaving a 5-star hotel. Like yourself I always tip the doorman, and always have the doorman explain my destination and write down the number of the cab. At the Conrad, the taxi touts (i.e., "where are you going?, I take you there" ) are not allowed anywhere near the entrance. As a matter of course, I never take one of the touts. This driver did drop the flag (turn on the meter before we left) as it is required of cabs servicing the Conrad which attempts to look after its guests. Only after we were away some distance did the cabbie turn off the meter in his attempt to extort me. To be clear, there was nothing that I could have done better initially in catching the cab to avoid the problem.

My only issue, is how I handled the problem after the fact. On one point, I disagree with you. It is appropriate to insist that you be taken to your destination and that the meter be utilized, once the cab driver has taken you away from the pick up spot. If he decides not to do so, then insist on being returned, and if not insist on being let out. I also disagree with the suggestion, that under these circumstances payment should be made. Never pay a cab driver that kicks you out of his cab as this rewards the bad behavior. Moreover, he is not expecting payment in this situation.

As for never hitting a Thai, on this point I agree (in fact, I would argue that you should never hit anyone in anger if it can be avoided). On the other hand, if assaulted defend yourself until you can get away otherwise you will take a beating. Here, the cabbie had already assaulted me (twice, grabbing and then pushing me) and I felt that his punch was coming next. I will not get into the merits of the claim that all Thais are trained in Muay Thai (they might want to be although I have seen no real evidence of that), but I am also trained as a boxer having fought golden gloves when I was younger (btw I am 45 and the cab driver was about 25, and at best only 10 to 15 pounds smaller than me, rather than the old infirmed Thai you reference). But even if the cabbie was trained and you are not, if assaulted defend yourself (maybe you will get in a lucky punch that will make him think twice). Most bullys do not like getting hit back.

My original point, and it was my only point, is that sometimes catching a cab is not "hassle free" as another forum member had argued. This was an unusual situation, and as stated in my original posting the first problem I have had in Thailand with a cab driver or otherwise.

I personally use taxis in Bangkok as a little as possible.

Bangkok, like most large cities, is a magnet for con artists, scam artists and the like.

that is just silly. taxis in bangkok are generally hassle free

Not the typical story, but it actually happened and was not "hassle free."

During my last stay in Bangkok I caught a cab on a Saturday night from the "meter-taxi" line at at the Conrad where I was staying. I was going to meet friends in Nana which was a 40b cab ride. Once we took off through the parking lot, the cabbie turned around, turned off the meter, and told me that the ride would be 500b. I insisted on the meter, and stated that he should return me to the Conrad if he was not going to use it. Claiming not to speak English, he then asked for 300b. I again insisted on the meter or a return to where I was picked up. His response was to stop the car and try to kick me out. Seeing no upside I decided I would comply. However, before existing I told him that he should not pick up passengers at a line designated for metered taxis, and muttered that he was acting like an a**hole. His English skills had apparently improved because he took great offense to my use of that term. He jumped out of the taxi, swung open the passenger door,and grabbed me. I told him to let go and pushed his hands away. When I stood up outside the taxi, he pushed me. My response, of which I am not particularly proud, was to drop him with a punch to the jaw. He got up, swung at me again, and I dropped him again. At this point another cab stopped and the driver was watching. I started to walk away and the cab driver attacked me again, same result. The cab driver then went to his trunk and I ran.

I later, contacted the police (at the insistence of my Thai girlfriend), but to my knowledge nothing ever happened (before getting into the taxi the doorman at the Conrad gives the passenger a paper with the cab number written on it).

I am just lucky that the driver did not use a weapon (who knows what was in the trunk), the other cab driver only watched, and the police did not try to arrest me based on my report.

This was the first real problem I have had with a taxi (or for that matter with anyone in Thailand) in more than 15 trips. While I still take cabs, I make sure that they agree to the meter before I shut the door. Again, not typical but "hassles" do occur.

So where do you get yours Boris? I too would rather not use the Indian tailors - the reason being that they have a set idea in their mind what a suit should look like (huge padded shoulders and a baggy cut) and use substandard cloth. Would like to hear of other options and am not too concerned about the price.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Try Dino's near Soi 12 Sukhumvit.Good quality and service but not cheap.

I first used Dino''s in 1992. Bought two suits of good quality. I am an attorney and wore them to work and court. Wore each of them one time each week for almost three years (dry cleaning them once or twice a month). Stopped wearing them only when I out grew them (unfortunately). Make sure you pick good material, and have two to four fittings. Make sure that the pants are lined, and inspect the seams. If something does not seem right, ask for it to be changed (afterall it is your suit). If you do not know what you want bring a picture.

Sofitel on Silom used to be the Monarch Lee Gardens and hasn't got much going for it.

The Davis is a preferred choice in my book. Near to a lot more shops, cafes, pubs etc on

Sukhumvit than dingy Silom.

Stayed in both the Diplomat and Ambassador suites at the Davis. Best Hotel in its class in Bangkok (i have been to Bangkok 15 times in two years and stayed at dozens of similarly priced hotels). The rooms are exceptional. Going back in April to get married, and will stay there again. Good luck.

Sure hope this is a result of the lovely "Hip Hop" culture making it's way over here.

The whole pseudo Gangster image presented by clowns in their music video's and rap lyrics.

I can go back home if I want to be around that trash.

I couldn't agree more. You don't have to look far to see the influence of "hip hop" becoming apparent in Phuket. Last time I was there I couldn't help but notice "tags" disrespectfully scribbled on roadside walls and buildings. Also, being of the younger generation myself, whenever I chose to go out to popular bars frequented by people of the similar age, I am bombarded with the gracefull melodies of r 'n' b music filled with angst ridden lyrics promoting gang-like mentality and behaviour. It is exactly as you say, trash.

It's unfortunate the beautifull place of Thailand is engaging this movement. It's one of the things I enjoy leaving behind when I get on the plane to Thailand.

I do not know anything about this "hip hop" or "r & b." However, I think it is that new fangled rock and roll music. When people were listening to Tommy Dorsey or the Andrew Sisters, the youth were respectful. Rock and roll caused young people to be rebellious. Girls started dressing like tarts, and boys started showing off for girls. Also before rock and roll there was no premarital sex. Now hormones are running rampant. Blame it on Mick Jagger and those ###### Beatles (with their subliminal messages in their recordings -- "Paul is dead, Paul is dead" -- certainly such messages about death would lead an impressionable youth to kill). And do not get me started on grafitti -- "Kilroy was here" Certainly that message tells youth to KIll Roy (or some other child if Roy cannot be found). We should ban all music from Phuket to protect the kids.

You guys are idiots. Two young men killed a young boy for staring. Do you really believe that these mental midgets would have acted differently if they watched the Lawrence Welk show. There is nothing in the article to suggest that music or international culture (whatever that may be) influenced this senseless act. BTW the most popular hip hop/rap artists today are not so-called gangster rappers. Rather, they talk about money, girls and parties. Get a clue.

Kind of...

Depends on what the coroner's (or equivalent) verdict was - a verdict of accidental death would involve no culpability on the Danish kiddy's part. Even if recklessness was a consideration leading to a manslaughter judgment, the kiddy is still a minor...

But then again, you live by the rules of the country you holiday in - them's the breaks...

Denotes a fundamental misunderstanding of law. A ruling of accidental death simply means no criminal culpability. People are held culpable for accidents every day in most every country. The amount 1.7 million baht is a substantial award in Thailand, and therefore reasonable under the circumstances.

Aha! Methinks I smell a yank! Wrong use of the word 'denotes'; gets 'most' confused with 'nearly'; and holds an unshakeable belief that the US legal system is correct in comparison to the rest of the world, rather than vice-versa Don't you people sue companies for not putting 'Warning: Hot Coffee' signs on cups of coffee and 'Warning: May Contain Nuts' on packets of nuts?

You are mistaken. Accidents are the subject of damage awards in most nations. Are you foolish enough to argue that because someone injured somebody else by accident (here the negligent conduct of operating a jet ski where people are also swimming), there can be no responsibility because it was accidental. Accident and fault (culpability) are not mutually exclusive. For example, when a doctor injures a patient during the course of a procedure it would be accidental (unless you would also argue that a doctor would injure his patient intentionally). Notwithstanding the doctor will generally be held liable for the injuries caused by his negligent conduct. If the patient dies as a result of the doctors error, a coroner's inquest may, as you argue, find that the death was accidental (the result of negligence). The doctor would still face damages for the injury caused. Similarly, auto v. pedestrian accidents happen all the time with the driver of he vehicle being found culpable for the pedestrian's injuries. If you want to argue the point, your original statement should have referenced a finding that the swimmer (as opposed to the jet ski driver) had been found at fault by a coroner's verdict. At least, you would have an argument for lack of culpability on the part of the driver under that circumstance (it would be similar to a child running into traffic in a manner in which the driver could not avoid the accident and thus was not responsible for its aftermath).

As for the term "denotes" the usage was correct. Denote(s) means "to signify directly or literally" and describes the relation between the word and the thing it conventionally names. Here it applies to your claim that the "coroner's verdict" would result in "no culpability."

BTW my rebuke of your comments has nothing to do with the US legal system. The result is the same in most first world countries (and many second and third world countries, as well). Indeed, very few countries offer an "it was accidental" escape liability card.

when a proffesional makes a mistake while in the process of exicuting his her proffession whether intentional or not and injiury or death occures they will always be responsible, they are proffessionally trained to execute said profession competantly, there is a certain expectation.........there are exceptions obviously where the recipient is aware of certain risks and a disclaimer is signed, if a dentist pulls a tooth and you die afterwards well I don't think you'd have expected that, if a patient dies during open heart surgery and was informed of the risks beforehand well that speaks for itself, but if the doctor sneezed during the proceedure and cut a main artery causeing death then that is neglegent

When two individuals decide to engage in a dangerous recreation sport which neither are proffessional then it is deemed they have both decided to accept the risks, the grey area here is deciding whether said individuals after an accident occurs where acting beyond what would be determined as acceptable, in this case either party could have been acting carelessly or both, outcome to be determined by evidence from witnesses etc, it is wrong to say the 15 year old was at fault just because he survived, we don't know all the details but it could have been the chinese guy made an error and caused the collision, in that senario why should there be compensation payed, if you drive a car down a street and another driver looses control and collides with your car then dies..............should you be responsible for damages ?

I don't think so..........sorry if I have missrepresented your post

Good points about assumption of the risk and intent. However, my post responded to the erroneous comment that a coroner's finding that the collision was accidental would have relieved the family of liability for the accident's consequences. There is nothing to suggest that this was not a tragic accident. That said one person died and the 15 year olds passport was confiscated, which implies that there was a finding of fault (whether justified or not). My point was that the mere fact of the accident does not excuse what seems to be negligent conduct.

Kind of...

Depends on what the coroner's (or equivalent) verdict was - a verdict of accidental death would involve no culpability on the Danish kiddy's part. Even if recklessness was a consideration leading to a manslaughter judgment, the kiddy is still a minor...

But then again, you live by the rules of the country you holiday in - them's the breaks...

Denotes a fundamental misunderstanding of law. A ruling of accidental death simply means no criminal culpability. People are held culpable for accidents every day in most every country. The amount 1.7 million baht is a substantial award in Thailand, and therefore reasonable under the circumstances.

Aha! Methinks I smell a yank! Wrong use of the word 'denotes'; gets 'most' confused with 'nearly'; and holds an unshakeable belief that the US legal system is correct in comparison to the rest of the world, rather than vice-versa Don't you people sue companies for not putting 'Warning: Hot Coffee' signs on cups of coffee and 'Warning: May Contain Nuts' on packets of nuts?

You are mistaken. Accidents are the subject of damage awards in most nations. Are you foolish enough to argue that because someone injured somebody else by accident (here the negligent conduct of operating a jet ski where people are also swimming), there can be no responsibility because it was accidental. Accident and fault (culpability) are not mutually exclusive. For example, when a doctor injures a patient during the course of a procedure it would be accidental (unless you would also argue that a doctor would injure his patient intentionally). Notwithstanding the doctor will generally be held liable for the injuries caused by his negligent conduct. If the patient dies as a result of the doctors error, a coroner's inquest may, as you argue, find that the death was accidental (the result of negligence). The doctor would still face damages for the injury caused. Similarly, auto v. pedestrian accidents happen all the time with the driver of he vehicle being found culpable for the pedestrian's injuries. If you want to argue the point, your original statement should have referenced a finding that the swimmer (as opposed to the jet ski driver) had been found at fault by a coroner's verdict. At least, you would have an argument for lack of culpability on the part of the driver under that circumstance (it would be similar to a child running into traffic in a manner in which the driver could not avoid the accident and thus was not responsible for its aftermath).

As for the term "denotes" the usage was correct. Denote(s) means "to signify directly or literally" and describes the relation between the word and the thing it conventionally names. Here it applies to your claim that the "coroner's verdict" would result in "no culpability."

BTW my rebuke of your comments has nothing to do with the US legal system. The result is the same in most first world countries (and many second and third world countries, as well). Indeed, very few countries offer an "it was accidental" escape liability card.

Kind of...

Depends on what the coroner's (or equivalent) verdict was - a verdict of accidental death would involve no culpability on the Danish kiddy's part. Even if recklessness was a consideration leading to a manslaughter judgement, the kiddy is still a minor...

But then again, you live by the rules of the country you holiday in - them's the breaks...

Denotes a fundamental misunderstanding of law. A ruling of accidental death simply means no criminal culpability. People are held culpable for accidents every day in most every country. The amount 1.7 million baht is a substantial award in Thailand, and therefore reasonable under the circumstances.

Based on the information so far it appears that "I need cows." Both cost and efficacy seem to dictate that it is a more useful animal. I wonder what would be the cost of 6-10 cows. Can anyone make a case for buffalo? Thanks for the responses thus far.

I am going to be in the unenviable position of having to buy cows or buffalo in April in or near Ubon Ratchatani. Not being Thai, a farmer or a frequent visitor to the area, I have several questions.

First, what is the price of cows? buffalo? Where do you buy them (i heard a rumor that there is a livestock auction the first Friday of the month). Can you get them delivered? Is there a discount for buying 2 or more? While I know inherently that buffalo are more expensive, which are more useful around the farm?

Clearly I am out of my element, and any information would be appreciated.

I'm a bit stunned by the whole question. The conversation in my family would have gone....

"darling I need cow"

"how much for cow?"

"X baht"

"Sorry, only have X/2 baht"

"thank you darling"

"next week I looking new cow OK"

Thats what I am looking to do, as well. Put a ceiling on the available money. My inquiry is so that I can be reasonable with the x/2 baht response. BTW I think the livestock will be work animals (although pregnant females seem to be the best buy).

Tell us more about the circumstances.

Chownah has put his finger on the warning buzzer.

If it was us, my wife would get a relative that she trusts to go to the Sunday cattle market near Hon Kaen; choose them, buy them, and have them delivered to his place. Then walk them over to ours.

Things go pear-shaped if it gets out that there is fa rang money involved.

Incidentally, yesterday evening I saw a buffalo cart on the road near here. That is the first that I have seen in ten years here. I thought the 'walking tractor' plus trailer had made the buffalo carts extinct.

Thanks for the questions and comments so far. Unfortunately, I will be paying. That said, the father-in-law or wife will be buying (they will be instructed not to mention the fa rang as payor). Notwithstanding, I am concerned about cost, and quantity (cows v buffalo). Trying to figure out what total costs to me will be (at least the ballpark range). The market in Khon Kaen is that the only source? Every Sunday? Is it near Ubon Ratchatani? Sorry for the additional questions.

Interesting reading..I whis I had joined this forum before.

Now Hastings!! It seems like you don't post here anymore but I really hope that you do read what everyone is saying. I really wish I could sit down with you and tell you my story. Reading your posting and answer allmost made me cry. YOU ARE BEEING SCAMMED!! Take it from a man who knows!!

Now if you don't want to listen to what people write then do yourself a big favour. Spend some money on a privateeye. Let him/them check her story..It's smal money compared to what you will loose the next years. (No I am not in the business and do not make any money on this). If you are really really lucky they will say everything is ok and all of us where wrong but really man! We are not!! If we are I will suck you dry! I give you my word!

Before I did not care about all these stupid farangs throwing money after a girl but now I have just been there myself. Perfect girl..University..Known her for two years..perfect family..allmost no questions for money..oh..there is so much moore.. but I loved her and trusted her 100%. The reality hit me like a hammer. And when I started checking..man! it just got worse and worse and worse..it's like it's never ending. They are "just" poor Issan girls but man are they clever!

Hastings PLEASE! I can't watch this anymore!!

SPIFF

Spiff I do read this daily but had no reason to respond. Tell me (and the others) your story. I am interested. Maybe you will be right (although I have no reason to change my view as of yet).

I am going to be in the unenviable position of having to buy cows or buffalo in April in or near Ubon Ratchatani. Not being Thai, a farmer or a frequent visitor to the area, I have several questions.

First, what is the price of cows? buffalo? Where do you buy them (i heard a rumor that there is a livestock auction the first Friday of the month). Can you get them delivered? Is there a discount for buying 2 or more? While I know inherently that buffalo are more expensive, which are more useful around the farm?

Clearly I am out of my element, and any information would be appreciated.

I don't understand your comment. Are you saying the police would be afraid of a Nigerian at night because all Nigerians are so dangerous (which would be one moronic stereotype); or was your comment just a stupid attempt at a racist joke (Nigerians are black and it is night, ha ha). I suspect the latter since there was no mention of time of day in the article. Either way you have shown the board your ass. Well done Mr. Bigot.

Students to be sued

The Student Loan Fund (SLF) plans to sue about 60,000 graduates for failing to repay loans that funded their studies.

Fund manager Prempracha Supasamout said yesterday that defaulters rarely got back in touch even after being issued repayment notices and warned of possible legal action.

"We need to file the lawsuits by July 4 or else the statute of limitations for these cases will pass," he said.

The cases involved about Bt6 billion in principal, interest and fines, he said.

- The Nation

Should do as done back in lovely ole' USA for unpaid student loans , attach their wages and future earnings.

If these are the "so called educated Thai's" perhaps a lesson in honesty and repaying debts may help the future generation of leaders understand how the real world works.

Just My Two Satang.

Technically they are doing exactly what the a US govenment does with Student Loans. Before there is an attachment or garnishment, there is always a lawsuit (usually defaulted after a failure to respond). US law does not allow attachment and garnishment for student loans without a lawsuit for breach of the loan contract (indeed, the only government entity with that ability is the IRS and that is based on the failure to pay tax bills after multiple warnings and after the wages in dispute had been reported to the IRS by the entity that had paid it to the debtor). In most cases the US government or a proxy lender (in the case of a government backed guaranteed loan) will sell the loan to a third party lender that will facilitate the lawsuit.

Looks like THailand ison the right track.

Also while there is no need to defend my future bride, there were a couple comments that warrant a response or explanation. While my fiancee was going to marry an american previously it was 10 years ago (not five as I may have stated in error in a prior post concerning a visa application where that detailseemed less important). At the time she was 18, fresh off the farm, and had not attended her university. That marriage was called off by the groom when his issan bride (who spoke very little english and had barely traveled outside her village) failed to quickly and perfectly adjust to his life, language, food, friends, family in a major american city (the fiancee visa gave them three months and he called it quits after two months). The issues were cultural compounded by a language barrier -- not economics. She was not as some implied based on little information rejected because she was a golddigger. Additionally, she learned english at a top thai university and by working in management at an american hotel chain in Bangkok. While she is not a virgin, she is certainly not the damaged goods implied by some. As for me I am an attorney, and relatively well off. Again,I hope this clears up some misconceptions and puts the post in context. Thanks.

Thanks for all the constructive and pointed comments. It gave me alot to consider. BTW I have now told mt fiancee that the cow and buffalo present, gold and wedding costs are too much. Her reaction was to be expected. Initially she was very upset (in particularly about the cows and buffalo because she had already told her parents that this was not a problem for me -- since I had erroneously joked that she was worth 10 previously). Thereafter, and several calls and emails later, she stated that she was going to buy the cows and buffalo herself since they were already promised, and that she would also pay for the wedding ceremony and reception. She is serious, and I know she has the money to do it. We did not discuss the gold, photos or show money further, and I am ok with that. I do love and trust her after a year of dating (I have lived off and on in Thailand for eight of the last twelve months as my business has allowed).

As for those that questioned my lack of follow-up posts, questioned whether I was a troll and made otherwise unkind personal comments, you are all off base. I did not resond for two reasons. It was almost three in the morning here when I initially posted. Thereafter, I had failed to log out even though I had left the forum. Additionally, I have had problems accessing this site after installing a wireless router the next morning that apparently had an internal firewall that was incompatible with the firewall on my computers. The conflict prevented this site, gooogle and othes from opening, and was only figured out after hours of calls to various tech support. While we have not devised a solution yet, I finally deinstalled the router so I could check this board. Again thanks to all that responded.

I am marrying a 28 y.o. TG from Issan in a couple of months. She speaks perfect English, has a university degree but comes from an Issan farming family. We have also applied for a fiancée visa and will have a small ceremony followed by a bigger reception in the United States. The traditional Thai wedding in Issan is for her family and friends, and will not be registered for months (so as not to screw up our visa application). Suffice it to say I am concerned that the cost of the two ceremonies and travel expenses are already going to be very expensive without the little extras I am told are required in a Thai traditional marriage. I am wondering if the costs that my fiancée proposes for the Thai wedding are reasonable. While my in-laws do not want a dowry (they are apparently happy that their daughter and I are in love), my fiancée indicates that a present from me to them s appropriate. She proposes that I give her parents a gift of 8-10 cows or buffalo for the farm (approximately B150k or US 4,500). Additionally she proposes that I give her 10 baht of gold (approximately B120K or US 3,400); pay for wedding outfits and photos (B50k or US 1500); and pay for the ceremony and reception at a hotel for 150 - 200 guests (approximately B75K or US 2,100). Grand total is approximately B495K or US 12,400 for the Thai wedding alone. Additionally, she wants me to put up B200K for show money which will be returned after the ceremony and reception.

I think that 2 to 4 Buffalos or cows are generous and reasonable, as is 3 to 6 baht of gold. I do not know whether the costs for the photos or ceremony are unreasonable although I suspect they are ok (although the photos and outfits are already a done deal since I already told her that it was ok). Overall, I think that what she proposes might be too much? Any thoughts, comments or advice would be appreciated.

BTW the US ceremony and reception will be approximately US 5,000 to 7, 000 (not including the travel expenses).