luckyluke

47 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

we are out aren't we, I call that a win. 

"To win without a risk, is a triumph without glory"

- Corneille -

Every country, member of the E.U., can trigger Article 50.

1 minute ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Everything is a perception. Its all an illusion.

Completely agree.

14 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

So again are you saying Major and Blair are/were not puppets of the EU not you have a definition?

 

As for proof look at the Lisbon and Maastricht treaties for starters.

I my opinion, they were no puppets of the E.U..

They thought they were doing the right thing. 

Being yes or not agree with it is a matter of perception. 

Brexit is a fact, Leavers voted for it convinced it is the right thing for the U.K.. 

Remainers thought/think it wasn't/isn't. 

That's a perception. 

Now I will certainly not claim that one perception is of more value than another. 

You may of course have a different opinion about it, and thus thinking that one perception is superior to another. 

7 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

Not really - nothing to do with "grants in the 80's" and if you read it you will see that the problem "came from a French regulation that prevented local boats from fishing these waters between May 16 and September 30 each year".

Correct,

but the all is an interesting read, in my opinion.

It gives certainly a realistic approach of the importance of this fishing thing, 

in other words : insignificant,

but nevertheless highly emotional for both parties,

thus  a waste of time, energy, finances, just to satisfy  both parties self-centeredness.

"the UK fishing industry (which includes the catching sector and all associated industries) was valued at £1.6 billion, against £1.76 trillion for the UK economy as a whole – or just under 0.1%. The UK’s trade with the EU, both import and export, stands at £615 billion a year in comparison."

1 minute ago, Phulublub said:

Really? where to you get this "fact" from?

 

PH

An extrapolating of what I read here on T.V..

I must admit it isn't an absolute certainty.  

Just now, Laughing Gravy said:

Please! Are you saying they are anti EU? What are they then.

Maybe you don't understand the term puppet in this context!

"puppet : a person,  under the control of another."

Unless there are undeniable concrete proofs, accepted by everyone,  it remains a conviction.

Mr. Johnson was accused to be the puppet of Mr. Cummings,

there have never been irrefutable proofs of this.

1 minute ago, Laughing Gravy said:

From a UK perspective, I blame Major and Blair. Both EU puppets, so yes the EU can bare some blame too.

" Both E.U. puppets "

is of course a perception.

Many will certainly concur,

as many others won't.

Everything is relative. 

Years ago in the Metro in Paris/France there were all over posters with the advice :

"Don't drink more than 1 liter wine a day" 

Which is more than a bottle. 

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

 

A minority that could prove extremely costly for Macron's future prospects.

 

If they were so insignificant, why is the EU so insistent on continued access?

Politics, it is all about giving the base the illusion that something is done for them.

If the base is happy,

this will affect their vote.

But in fact this fishing thing is economical insignificant in the all package.

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

The UK will be fine

Pretty sure,

there will be of course issues, but convinced it will fine.

Same thing for the E.U..

Of course there will be voices claiming, even hoping, the U.K. /E.U. will be a failure starting next year.

10 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

The man in the street?

 

Or the fishermen in their boats?

The fishermen are only a minority,

and we all know what a minority represent for the majority.

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Reasonable? Are you serious? There is nothing reasonable about what the EU is proposing.

That's a perspective most Britons have.

Most Europeans, on their side, believe that every proposal the E.U. does to the U.K. is immediately considered as unrealistic.

I am afraid it will not be possible to modify these convictions.

11 hours ago, vogie said:

If I can turn that around, do you think the 48% care about the 52% that chose to leave the EU,

In my opinion, there is no need for a minority to "care" about a majority,

the greater number having the power,

the minority is impuissant, it can only suggest.

Further I think how less the winning margin is from a majority, how more it should "care" about the minority.

7 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

Politicians no longer have ethics and regard hypocrisy and lying as tools of the trade, as we see time and time again. So nothing they say has any real meaning and can be reversed as soon as necessary to them.

Oh, so true;

and everyone is conscious of it.

However,  if it may benefit/strengthen the opinion of one,  he will refer to the declaration of the politician, as being absolute truth.

4 hours ago, JonnyF said:

I think it would be fair to wait a decade to see the long term effects of Brexit

Seems reasonable. 

Of course there are/will be negative/positive speculations. 

The same for the future of the E.U., without the important contribution of the U.K..

Maybe they can handle it, handle it a few years, not able to handle it. 

Time will tell. 

Also other nations will decide after a decade (based on the long term effects) if they will follow the steps of the U.K., or not. 

Here also this won't stop actual, and further in time, speculations. 

35 minutes ago, vogie said:

Boris will do what is best for our nation

And that's what he is  of course suppose to do.

Mr. Barnier have been instructed to do the best for the E.U., and that's what he is doing.

It is a very difficult duty, which may result for the 2 parties in a :

"Mission non  accomplished" 

There will be than, on both sides,  a lot of statements why it failed, with certainly the blaming of the other party for not have being fair-minded/reasonable.

If indeed sovereignty is that important, fishing in British waters by non- Britons should never have been tolerated ( no quota should have been sold out to foreign hands).

In my opinion it is a pure mercantile state of affairs, this sovereignty thing is a lame excuse.

Now I have no problem at all, that a country try to get the most out of the deal, if a foreign country wants to buy/ lease/use it, or whatever, some of the resources of that said country.

In other words Lord Frost should have said/say to Mr. Barnier : 

"you want to continue to fish in our waters, well it is that much".

Than up to negotiations.

Line is : Rainnie taxi