garro

JSixpack, you obviously spent quite a lot of time on your post and have indeed raised a number of intresting issues.

You argue that Thai parents indocternate their children into Buddhism, but I can't see how it could be any other way. Part of being a parent is sharing your values with them. As I mentioned in my post, the parents in my village allow their children to attend this Christian group' service; and I do believe that this shows a high degree of religious tolerance on their part.

There are Buddhists who fall away from their family's faith but I have never see these people condemmed because of it.

Your argument that the Thai government is responsible for brainwashing the population into supporting Buddhism in order to control them appears to me to be a Marxist argument. While this marxist/socialist argument makes some valid points it is yet just another belief system. It could equally be argued, and this is my view, that Thai society reflects what the majority of Thais value and respect.

Of course I agree that if the people of Thailand wish to become Christian we should let them. I, as a Buddhist, see no problem in this. I do however feel that this should be through being attracted to the religion not coerced into it.

I also get the impression that some of your post is a bit tongue-in-cheek but I could be wrong

If the Christian message you are trying to spread is the one and only 'truth' why are the missionaries needing to resort to bribery to get people to listen? I would imagine if something was so obviously 'the truth', then people would be naturally attracted to it.

I have known people for years that I have not preached to. I just showed them the love of God in accordance with the Word of God. When I had a chance, I talked to them in detail about the gospel. It isn't bribery to show kindness to people. It is an expression of the nature of God. He is a giver. It would be out of God's character to point a rifle at people and force them to decide for your religion or die, as some religions do, and have done.

If it is the the 'one real truth' why are the churches in many former Christian countries now practically empty. Why are so many turning to different religions? Is this the work of the devil?

The reason the churces in many former Christian countries are practically empty is that the religions they were pushing had almost nothing to do with God, the Bible, or Christianity. I wish that the churches were not only empty, but never existed in the first place, because they so bastardized a relationship with Jesus into penance-doing, "saint"-worshiping, sicence-oppressing, marriage-forbidding, Christian-killing, homosexual-pedophile money worship cults.

The twisting of a relationship with God through Jesus Christ into the thousands of sects, false religions, and cults is definitely the work of the devil, and doesn't invalidate knowing God through Jesus Christ.

As stupid or ineffective, or unscriptural the methods some people use while being or thinking they are being witnesses for Christ does not make all Christianity into the gutless dead religion it got processed into in the Dark Ages any more than seeing hookers means all women are prostitutes.

But, if you want to point to prostitutes, specifically, the STD-infected loud ugly ones that call out to men on the street as your excuse for being gay, you are free to do so.

So let me get this straight. Old Christianity = bad, but your new Christianity = good. Are you using a different book?

Cheese is cheese, and it doesn't relly make a difference what wrapper you put it in.

So, what you are saying is,it is not only that you are intolerant of people who belong to a different faith than you (and you must admit that bribing them to change their faith shows a high degree of intolerance) but also other Christians who don't share your interpretation of Christianity.

Metta

Our assumption from the more christian leaning posts is that they feel an obligation to tell other people about their religion, save them etc etc.

The problem others are having with this, is that it infringes on others freedom to believe or lead their life minding their own business etc.

If we take the first point of view as face value and give them (Christian activists) the benefit of the doubt etc., I have one question to put to them.

I have seen some of the published material/leaflets etc that they give out to their volunteers/fellow activists. In this material it clearly states who is the most vulnerable to conversion and the methods/psychology most effective to use. Two of the groups to be targeted are children especially if they can be accessed out of the family unit and also foreign students in Western Universities and colleges.

How do they justify these tactics? It is a carefully thought out and researched plan based on economics and preying on people when they are at their most vulnerable.

How many christian groups do we see doing charity work in the old peoples homes or homes of the mentally ill. Or is that not economically and statistically viable. These groups don't seem to be mentioned in the leaflets of their corporate ethics.

First, one of the things we, as Christians, believe, is that this is God's planet. He owns it, and everything on it. The New Testament says that God now commands men everywhere to repent. Not requests. In line with that, Christians are not only allowed to preach the gospel, they are commanded to do so.

Why some concentrate on kids is because until they reach an age of accountability for their sins, children are pure in heart and would go to heaven if they died, and are more likely to make a choice for God instead of against him. You are more likely to help someone avoid going to hel_l if you reach them with the love of God when they are young, before they have turned into a hard-nosed cynical, dyed-in-the-wool sinner. The idea is to present the message of the love God to people. The people least likely to reject the message are usually people who haven't given themselves over to sin already.

In my particular case, I have usually found that the people I end up being an influence on have been pretty girls who are (sometimes extremely) sleazy, and the guys they hang out with. I have volunteered for whatever God wants me to do, but I usually end up with the party animals, without diving into the same lifestyle. God has someone to reach everyone, and can transport them supernaturally anywhere they are needed, as he did with Philip in the New Testament, but the most likely method of getting to people is getting on a plane, train, ox, whatever and going where they are.

And, people who are not yet out in the mean, raping, lying, cheating, greedy world and becoming part of that whole system of extracting as much money as possible from it with no regard for morals or character are much easier to reach with the love of God. I know I was saved in my last year of high school, and would never want to go back to what I was.

But, ultimately, everyone has a choice. hel_l was not created for man, but for Satan and his angels whom he convinced to rebel against God along with him. However, by submitting to the lordship of Satan by not accepting Jesus Christ, man falls under the same judgment as his chosen god, which in the case of the sinner, is Satan. In the case of Christians, they get the same judgment of their God, who is Jesus.

Everyone has free will. Christians, as imperfect as we are, do what we can to reach who we can. People can choose to reject the message, and so so by the billions. Our job is to make it available and as palatable as possible, but not to compromise the message or water it down for the sake of being afraid of what people think.

Having said that, yes, we ARE imperfect and do a less-than-perfect job of presenting the love of God top people. God is almighty enough to make up for however bad we may mess things up. But he allows everyone to do as they please. But, consequences await everyone, and Satan is the present god of this world, which is why it is such a mess. God delegated care of this world to mankind, man swiftly and promptly handed it over to Satan, and then God has been on the outside looking in and doing what he can through the few he could get on his side.

If the Christian message you are trying to spread is the one and only 'truth' why are the missionaries needing to resort to bribery to get people to listen? I would imagine if something was so obviously 'the truth', then people would be naturally attracted to it.

If it is the the 'one real truth' why are the churches in many former Christian countries now practically empty. Why are so many turning to different religions? Is this the work of the devil?

Just like to make one point here that came up earlier in the thread.

The Thai Constitution allows for freedom of religion.....This means that people are allowed to choose and practice the religion of their choice...

It doesnt cover trying to force that religion on others by means subtle or otherwise.

In other words, persuasion. Its used to promote political parties, giving money to the temple, staying off drugs, buy my vegetables instead of the other guy's, get good grades at school or any other idea that a person believes strongly about. What is so bad about that?

Aside from a few quacks - and I have met some myself - Christian persuasion is not usually as oppressive as some of the posters have suggested. If the kids don't want to go to the free English lessons, they don't have to go. In the Thai culture, if the village missionary is too pushy or oppressive he is simply avoided. That is sometimes called a social "quarantine". These things usually work themselves out.

I do believe that religion is important but feel that it should be a personal issue. I am 100% committed to my Buddhist beliefs but would never try and push these beliefs on to anybody else and the same could be said for most Buddhists. I always allow for the possibility that I could be wrong and so respect other peoples views.

Why wouldn't you push your beliefs on me? Buddhism has been fulfilling for you. I am missing out. Why wouldn't you want to show me a better way? Don't you care about me? If you talked to me about your faith and I didn't accept it I could just say no.

Bryan in Issan, the reason I wouldn't push my beliefs on you is that I feel that these beliefs to be of a very personal nature. What works for me may not work for you, due to many reasons. If you already have a belief system that works why would I want to intefer with that.

I came to Buddhism through my own investigations and not because somebody converted me. This is true of many Buddhists from Western countries who came to Asia and sought out answers that they couldn't obtain from their original religion. Of course if someone came to me for help I would do so in whatever limited way I could.

I do not claim to have all the answers. I only know what works for me.

Buddhism does not need me to promote it. It has managed over 2500 years without my help.

Metta

Lighten up everybody - Christians are funny; any bunch which believes that a giant invisible sky-pixie created the world in 7 days before impregnating a virgin and all the other superstitious nonsense in The Good Book deserve our pity.

he has eyes yet he cannot see...

mai pen rai.. simplistic interpretation reveals his current state of spirituality & or enlightenment...

Persevere my friend..! your on the right road with these views... someday your destination will most certainly come to you

Goshawk, I think that your post shows a very high degree of ill-will towards your fellow man. You seem to be expressing glee in your view that this other poster will be punished if he doesn't believe as you do.

Sorry you see it that way, it was purely an objective criticism based on observation.. Where in my post did you extract an impending punishment act?

and how do you know what i believe or don't believe?

Read my post again and imagine an not just a priest, but an immam, a sufi, a buddhist monk etc.. using very similar phrasing. I hope you see that my post actually applies to all belief systems both religious and non-religious..

If you read my post you will see that I used the word seem to be. As you point out I do not know what you believe. I just mentioned the fact that your post seemed to suggest that you could somehow see what the future held for other people who did not follow 'the right road' or perhaps you really meant it when you wrote 'your (sic) on the right road with these views'. I aploloigise if I have taken what you said in the wrong way but note that I am not the only poster to have done this. Maybe you could be less cryptic about your view and perhaps actually state it; this will probably lead to better understanding.

Thank you mdeland for this post, it means a lot to know that their are others on similar paths.

Funnily enough, I have just replied to another post you made on a different thread, not realizing it was the same person.

Monk Gordon is definitely a facinating person who is not only wise but also funny.

One hears, "I hate Christian missionaries because they do this... (blah, blah, blah)". Another says, "I hate Jews because they do this ... (blah, blah, blah)". Another says, "I hate black people because they do this... (blah, blah, blah)" Another says, "I hate gays because they do this" A southern muslim friend says, "We behead Buddhist monks because they are trying to convert our children to Buddhism and make them speak Thai."

Hatred leads to more hatred. Love and tolerance leads to peace. Kindness leads to happiness.

If we look deeply, we can find reasons why we really like people who are different than us. If we look for reasons to hate we will find them.

mdeland: are you suggesting that anyone who questions the methods used by Christian missionaries is a racist Nazi?

Lighten up everybody - Christians are funny; any bunch which believes that a giant invisible sky-pixie created the world in 7 days before impregnating a virgin and all the other superstitious nonsense in The Good Book deserve our pity.

he has eyes yet he cannot see...

mai pen rai.. simplistic interpretation reveals his current state of spirituality & or enlightenment...

Persevere my friend..! your on the right road with these views... someday your destination will most certainly come to you

Goshawk, I think that your post shows a very high degree of ill-will towards your fellow man. You seem to be expressing glee in your view that this other poster will be punished if he doesn't believe as you do.

It hurts me to hear of all the Christian bashing on this post. We Christians, for the most part, are a loving and caring people. While there are misfits, cheats and emotionally disturbed individuals in any group, for the vast majority of Christians, it is our love that compels us to tell you about Jesus.

If you truly believed in the core of your mind AND heart that there is an everlasting destiny for you and everyone else on the planet and that the choices one makes here while alive affect what happens after you die, wouldn't you, out of love, warn those of the dangers of the wrong choice? Even the most callous and disreputable person would warn a pedestrian of an impending meet with death at the hands of a large truck barreling straight for him.

I challenge anyone who gives the story of Christ a good and honest read with even a skeptical mind will be shaken to his core. The proofs of Christ's ressurection are many. Of course you need some help with understanding and thus the missionary.

We believe that Christ created the universe and was God. We believe that because God loves everyone ever born, He was not willing to see anyone suffer through eternity in hel_l, he sent His only Son to save us from a horrible fate. We believe that he was born of a virgin having been supernaturally impregnated. That he was fully man and fully God. That he was crucified for no reason, totally innocent, never having sinned. That he was bodily resurrected. That he will reign both here on earth, soon, and in heaven forever. That his last command, while on earth, to believers was to go unto all the earth telling all who would believe and baptizing him in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is our personal and corporate responsibility to tell everyone, not just because of the command, but also because of the love we have for everyone.

Let no one tell you that they are sinless. Every Christian is as much a sinner as the non believer. The difference is that we have discovered the truth. I consider myself to be unbelievably lucky and blessed to find out this truth. When talking to others who believe as I, many of us have shed real tears when we consider those who have rejected Christ. We know for a fact what fate awaits them.

I cannot say whether the missionaries in this village are bribing or not. I would like to hear their side of the story before I condemn their actions. I think that only fair. I am certain that each of us share the belief that we are innoncent until proved guilty. Without hearing from the accused, no one should pass judgment. Therefore, I suggest to the poster, Garro, to show this forum to them and ask them to respond. I believe they will and we will all be surprised by the answer.

Liberty: it is precisely because of the arguement that you raise in your post that I would not confront this group; as I fear that a similar view as yours is likely to held by them. This view is completely closed minded and intolerant and does not allow for the possibility that other people could be right. Your post states as fact, things for which there is no evidence for but are merely matters of faith. Christianity is one of many belief systems, all of which deserve equal respect. Please remember the other peolpe of different faiths have just as stong convictions as you do.

I agree that many posters have expressed very negative attitudes towards Christianity but believe that this is due to negative experiences that they have experienced in their dealings with this religion. Many are likely to have come from Christian backgrounds but now feel let down by their childhood faith.

I do believe that religion is important but feel that it should be a personal issue. I am 100% committed to my Buddhist beliefs but would never try and push these beliefs on to anybody else and the same could be said for most Buddhists. I always allow for the possibility that I could be wrong and so respect other peoples views.

My concern is that the Christian group im my village could be taken advantage of the tolerant attitude of the local Buddhist population.

Liberty, I repect your right to believe what you want I only ask that you respect other peoples right to do the same.

Metta

Slackula while I feel that your post is a bit intolerant I also must admit that it is incredibly funny.

My reason for raising this issue was purely my concern about the methods used by missionaries in the village where I live; which I view as much more serious than watching a film on a plane from Laos.

Whether missionaries have done good in the past is not really an issue. Again I ask if they wanted to help people why advertise their belief system. I worked as a nurse for many years, and although I did get paid for this work, I genuinely entered the profession with the view of helping people; not to advertise my belief system.

There has also been the accusation that this issue only upsets non-belivers who like to party. I am a Buddhist who seriously tries to follow his belief system but I never try and force my views on anybody else. I don't drink alcohol or spend time in brothels.

I would just like to share my experiences of Wat Tamgrabok Treatment Center and to reccomend it to anybody in need of help with their addictions.

I stuggled with a serious alcohol problem from the age of seventeen until thirty-six when I made my way to Wat Tamgrabok; that was seven months ago. At the end of my drinking I felt completely defeated, it was a physical stuggle to keep the alcohol down but I still I continued to drink. Four years previously I had been informed that my liver was being damaged as proved from results from a liver function test; this did not stop me but only increased the worry that drink was causing.

I did have previous experience of sobriety; due to spending two years in AA but I left due to my belief that I was too young at 25 to be a serious alcoholic. I still have enormous respect for AA but they are not part of this journey into sobriety. I do however agree with much of the 'Big Book' and believe that like Bill W it was a 'spiritual experience' that completely changed me.

When I arrived at Wat Tamgrabok I was prepared to do anything told me to stop drinking; I would have run around Thailand naked if they asked me but luckily they didn't. The regime at the temple is very tough; all your clothes and money are taken away and you need to wear an outfit similar to a prison uniform. I was informed that the police in the area are well aware of what the uniform means and have no problem escourting runaways back to the temple. The treatment also involves vomiting litres of medicine up each day in front of a crowd who claps and cheers (this is a really humbling and life changing experience; and I am getting upset and full of gratitude just thinking about it; shit I even started crying).

The most important part of the treatment, for me at least, was the satja or solemn vow never to drink again. This is done in front of a senior monk and once I made it I knew that my story with alcohol was over. This satja is what keeps me sober and it has worked perfectly.

At Wat Tamgrabok there is a very wise Swiss monk who thinks that people who become problem drinkers do so because they have lost the purpose of their lives. He feels that if we don't find and follow this purpose we suffer and this leads us to addiction. He suggested that my previous addiction should not be looked upon negitively but rather as a tool to get my back on my path; I now no longer need that tool so have put it down.

Wat Tamgrabok has a superb reputation amoung the Thai people (of all religions) and has helped many hopeless farangs.

I could not express enough my gratitude to Wat Tamgrabok and I would never hesitate to recommend it.

I am sorry Guesthouse but it is not my intention to criticise all missionary work (although I do wonder why people who want to help others need to advertise their beliefs). My concern is with the methods used to recruit new followers by a certain a Christian group the village where I live.

I think that everyone who visits Thailand is aware of their tolerance for people of all religions and that all religions are protected here. I suspect that this tolerance is due to Thailand being a 95% Buddhist country.

The centre in our village is presently run by Thai Christians; but as I said in the original post they are backed by money from America. They hold their services in Thai and use Thai Christian Hymns. I have also seen their pamphlets which are also written in Thai. They also provide English lessons.

I am glad that others share my concerns. I did not wish to appear intolerant.

A part of me would love to complain to this group personally, but it is probably not a good idea to go looking for trouble. Years ago I had a girlfriend who became involved with a hardcore Christian group, and it was imposible to have a conversation with her afterwards if it involved any type of negativity towards her new beliefs. I would imagine that if this group is willing to resort to bribery to attract members they are probably beyond reasonable arguments. Anybody in the villlage who knows me is aware of my views on these people.

I console myself with the knowledge that despite 700 years of missionaries coming to Thailand, it still remains a mostly Buddhist country.

I do not mean for this topic to cause offence but this is something that genuinely concerns me. I also do not wish to make any judgements about anyone's religious beliefs, my concerns are solely to do with how religious groups recrut new members. I will understand if the moderators decide that this topic is too inflammatory and so remove it from the forum.

For the last two and a half years I have lived in a small village in Phitsanulok province. In the local area their is a Christian missionary which is very active in the community. It offers the local children scholarships, gifts for them and their families ( an example of this was duvets last month) as well as expensive holidays. They also have many fun activities at the centre. Apparently the money for this comes from the States. The children only recieve these benefits if they attend weekly services at the Christian centre and most of the children in our village now attend.

I think that this is a very unfair way of recruiting people to their religion. I also know that most of the villagers feel the same way but still send their children along anyway. Many will ask the question, why send their children? but I would imagine it is hard to turn down any financial incentives when you are poor. I do know that many of the children retain their Buddhist beliefs despite attending this Christian group.

I must add that I have no contact with this group, nor would I wish to. What I know about them comes from talking to the villagers and local monk as well as from the children who I teach in the local school.

I know that many of the members of this forum are probably Christian and wonder what their views are? I could be wrong, but I doubt that these missionaries use the same method in South Thailand in muslim areas.

Again, I do not wish for this post to upset anyone.

In regards to the point that a western education encourages people to think more for themselves. I am not so sure that the obsession in the West with individuality and thinking for yourself is such a great idea. It tends to breed self-obsessed people who spend their time trying to convince everyone how happy/miserable they are.

I am not a dad as yet but we are expecting a little luk krung in August. Myself and my girlfreind (who is due to become my wife next week) are going to raise our child here in Thailand. I can see that there has been some very valid points made in this thread about the pros and cons of raising a child here but I stll think it is the better choice.

I have lived in thailand for about five years now; the last two and a half years in a very rural area. I also have a few years experience of teaching in Thailand at every school level; anuban, pratom, and mathyom in both city and up-country. I admit that there are many problems in the Thai education system but I feel that the most important element in a child's education is their family. If a child has parents who noy only encourage academic achievement but also value it (for example: letting their child see them read a book occasionally) then they too will value it. I also feel that the best educational resource a child has is their family.

I previously worked as a registered trauma nurse in Ireland as well as the NHS in England so perhaps have developed a jaundiced view of life in these countries. I see life as much more complicated there with little or no time for childhood. The young tend to feel allienated from adults and so show them no respect while many adults live in fear of children. I have really noticed this on my trips bak to Ireland; children and people in general appear far more happy in Thailand. This view is supported by the high incidence of teenage suicide and mental illness in both the UK and in Ireland, and I imagine in other western countries. I greatly admire the Thai focus on family and the support this provides.

Previous posts have mentioned the lack of activities for children here in Thailand. I have seen many children in Europe who despite having access to tons of activities are completely bored out of their minds. In my opinion the best activity a child can do is use their immagination.

My post may sound a bit naive, as I have not yet had a child, and maybe I will change my mind when the reality of raising one hits me. I don't think so though.

In my opinion those who devalue degrees tend not to have them; I know I did. It is a type of reverse-snobery; like the poor who console themselves by believing that the rich are miserable.

I think a degree is important for teachers because it shows;

1) that they are commited to teaching because they have made the effort to get qualified

2) they have reached a certain academic level

3) that they are intrested in learning

I know from experience that Thai teachers are appalled at unqualified teachers coming to teach here and getting up to three times their salary. This is as annoying to them as Farangs who own girlie-bars is to the OP.

I hope the OP manages to get the needed qualifications as he clearly loves living in Thailand.

I agree that it seems a bit unfair. I was in a similar position as you are previously, while teaching in Bangkok a few years ago, but I voluntarily left because I felt like a bit of a fraud teaching without the proper qualifications. I was able to upgrade my qualifications and continue teach voluntarily. I now meet the criteria.

I think that if you really want to teach here you will need to do what is necessary to meet the requirements. I agree with the previous poster, I too wouldn't want my child being taught by someone without a degree.

I wish you all the best.

The comedy I was recommending was pen taw. For some reason my last message wouldn't print the Thai script.

One thing that has been a great help to me was getting rid of UBC 'pay to view' channels. I now only watch Thai TV. This was a big step for me to take but it definitely has improved my Thai. I now actually enjoy wathing it and the soaps can become quite addictive. The other great thing is that I previously felt guilty about wasting time watching TV but now I have an excuse.

In the beginning I used to ask a lot of questions about what was going on and I am sure it used to drive my girlfriend mad but I now need to ask less frequently. Another great thing about it is that I pick up catch phrases which really amuses the Thais when they recognise who you are imitating. I needed to return to my home country, Ireland, last year and actually ended up bringing a load of Thai soaps/comedies back with me. I reccomend ??????? as a good comedy. The soaps are harder to recommend as they change every few weeks.

Sorry, I didn't realise that it was that easy to get a non-immigrant o visa.

I have lived in Thailand for the last five years and have been reliant on triple entry multiples followed by monthly visa runs and then returning to Ireland yearly for a new visa. I am no longer sure that it is possiple to continure the monthly visa runs once the multiple entry is finished, but I could very easily be wrong. This is why I am changing to a non-o based on marriage.

I wish you the best of luck with your application and maybe someone else can tell you what to write on it and where to send it.

I don't think that you are entitled to a non-immigrant O and I am not sure why you are applying foe one.

I have previously recieved triple entry multiple entry tourist visas from the Dublin consul without any problems. This can last for up to nine months with extensions.

I hope this is the right forum for this question, here goes anyway.

I am an Irish national who spends nine months of the year in Thailand and have done so for the last five years. My girlfriend of three years is now pregnant and we have decided to do the honourable thing and get married. I have checked the internet for information and it seems fairly straight foward except for two things;

1) The Irish consulate states that I must provide proof of income in order for them to provide the 'free to marry' certificate. My problem is that I only work for three months of the year as an agency nurse. This means that I am considered as self-emoplyed as I am working for an agency. I do however have weekly pay slips from my three months of work last year. Will this be enough as proof of income?

2)It also states that my girlfriend needs to have her passport or birth certificate translated into english. I have examined her passport and it is already in both languages. What do they mean?

Thanks in advance