chrisyork

I'm afraid I have become a bit of an expert in this one! Boo is correct on the actual mechanism, but the key discussion is getting agreement on division of assetts and liabilities and children.

Assetts and liabilities first. Both parties are entitled to retain any assetts (including cash at the bank) they came into the marriage with. If you are lucky you are likely to find that the local PooYai or one of his team have a witnessed document identifying what these are for each party. If not, you are into shouting match territory. If the business is set up as a company (unlikely) then it would stand outside this process and only the shareholdings in it would count within the process. If the business is not a company (normal) and predates the marriage, you would have to find a way of assessing the worth of the business at the time of the marriage and now. If it is something like a shop and you haven't moved premises or expanded etc then there should be no effective change.

Then you are on to assessing how the assetts have increased during the marriage. This increase is split 50/50. The definition of assetts is just as in the west and includes things like cash in bank, and ignores what name the assett is held in. When looking at land it is important to differentiate between the different classes of ownership. Land owned outright is valuable. Land where all you have is an agricultural lease with someone else owning the freehold is not. You may not be able to tell from looking at who controls the land on a day to day bassis! Find someone who can read the documents!

Finally kids. In Thailand a girl is an assett and a boy is a liability. This is because all children are expected to support their parents in old age. But the girl brings her husband to live with her family, whereas the boy will need a dowry to get rid of him. Therefore a girl is a talisman of expected support in old age whereas a boy is likely to cost to get rid of. There does not appear to be any convention as to which partner a child goes with, but clearly there is gong to be compertition to keep a girl and vice versa with a boy. As far as I can tell future maintenance is not normal - the arrangement is a clean break. Your freind should therefore meet little resistance if she wants the boy to go with her. In our case we were happy to let the girl go with her mother and this eased the level of dispute over the assets. In theory you could use the perceived future costs and benefits of children to influence the allocation of assets.

At no point is there any practical weight to any discussion on how the marriage broke down. But be prepared for mother in law to make a huge performance out of it! Luckily she will be wasting her breath.

Avoid at all costs using the law. Going to a judge to resolve this will be hugely expensive and should more than wipe out any joint assetts. You would need to be very wealthy indeed to make it worth while.

Now a shot in the dark. Assuming the overall wealth hasn't changed dramatically during the marriage, my advice would be to try to exit retainig control of her individual bank accounts, with a small car and the son. And leave them to retain everything else. This ought to be seen as fair by the surrounding larger family - albeit they will have alll wanted to see if they can get away with stripping the falang! Only down side is that having moved out of the family home has removed the main bargaining counter. What motive does he have to settle? Don't forget that Thailand is not known for coming to a quick decision. I'd expect between 6 and 12 months!

Hope that all helps and doesn't depress too much!

Chris

I think that's a very perceptive answer from Pawpcorn. I'm 56 and my BF is 37, so a similar age profile. But we've been together 11 years now It's been a very rocky road through some major trauma's that most here would certainly have finished over. Including him marrying without telling me and then my having to sort out the divorce for him! We are now really happy, I'm a key component of his family at home, stand in Father to three of the family's kids, consulted on all key decisions (shall we plant kassava or sugar cane this year?) etc. Is he right for me? 100%. Luckily I recognised this very early on having had a similar relationship back in the UK which ended with my significant others death in a road accident before I'd worked out how important he was to me. Therefore I took the trouble to work hard at it and to adapt and learn the Thai way and culture.

If you really think there's something there, don't be put off with things that your peers would tell you to finish over. Work at it! It's not for nothing that the (straight) marriage vows are worded the way they are. All relationships need hard work. Really worthwhile ones need even more.

Oh, and how did we meet? Complete accident. Neither looking for anyone (yes really - not even a one nighter or a payday), just eyeballed each other in a bar and the rest is history.

Chris

My BF prefers red underwear! So I guess yours is purely personal. Irritates the hel_l out of me - separate washes and all that - you can tell we've been together a long time!

Chris

I really can't believe that Buddhist monks would wholeheartedly support the red agenda of violent change. Disquiet at the political state of play perhaps, as all of us.

By the way, the OP speaks of them being concerned at "Imbalance". Had anyone spotted that if you mix red and yellow you get ORANGE! Perhaps the monks have excellent balance after all!

Chris

I've been going to Khun Narong Athinantanakorn at Verizon Dental Clinic, 128 Silom Soi 6, Silom Road Bangrak, Bangkok 10500, tel 02 233 5515 17, [email protected] for a good few years now. He's US trained and speaks perfect English. The clinic is superbly equipped, far better than my clinic in the UK. I've had most things done up to and including a gold cap. Price is substantially less than the UK - you can almost justify the flight out and back on the saving! He also practices at one of the big dental hospitals so you will need an appointment - but that shouldn't be longer than a days wait. Substantially more expensive than an up-country Thai clinic, but worth every penny in my view.

Chris

I seem to remember reading somewhere that over 30% of Bangkok is already below sea level, so it's actually quite an acievement to keep Bangkok as dry as it is! Roll on global warming and a tad of sea level rise! Bangkok won't be alone in trouble then - London for one will be in deep .... I mean water.

Chris

We live in (very) rural Lopburi province and I have had a couple of occasions to use my local public hospital myself and of course there is always a family member in there! I now even have my own hospital card! I am deeply impressed with the standard of the doctors and nurses and general care there. Overall I would say the standard is about on a par with the UK NHS. Some things are notably better, others not quite as good. Our local hospital does fall down though on the availability of diagnostic equipment. Even the X ray machine is spectacularely elderly!

One option you might like to try is the "Christian Hospital" in Silom in Bangkok. It is aimed at Thai's and not falang, so language might be a problem, but it is notably cheaper than the big private hospitals (about a third?). It seems to have world class specialists and equipment and you also have the satisfaction of knowing that your fees are going to subsidise care of poor Thais. I have no agenda on the Christian bit and it doesn't seem to intrude with the staff.

Chris

Maintenance in Thailand is a completely different animal to the same term in the West. Thai's are quite prepared, and the infrastructure is there to support it, to carry out really major renewals and overhauls on old vehicles. There is literally no limit other than accidents (!!) to how long a vehicle will last in Thailand. In our local small town we have a Citroen CX Prestige - complete with horifically complex hydraulics and French build quality - and a late 60's Alfa coupe - notoriously fragile even when new - both in daily use. The Thais can fix absolutely anything mechanical! And bodywotk and trim are easily repaired / renewed too.

My only reservation to this glowing tribute is that more modern cars with reliance on electronic engine management and other electronic systems may not fare quite as well long term. We have a relatively modern Nissan saloon laid up at home primarily because of electronic difficulties, while its older siblings purr on into the future.

Chris

I think there may be another factor at work here (in parallel to any discussion of homophobia). Thai's are notoriously shy of any overt display of non conformance with ANY social issue. This applies as much to heterosexual couples making out in public and to any overt, in your face, promotion of any issue. Could it be that we have a coming together of two factors here - reluctance to accept any overt public display together with unease about homosexuality?

My experience is that when individuals are known; in villages, amongst family members; there is very rarely any homophobia directed specifically against them. BUT as a general discussion homosexuality is regarded as unfortunate (aka unlucky?) in that it has the practical effect of limiting the ability to produce children (aka your support network in old age and infirmity).

The scary aspect to this is when political movements latch on to such ambivalence to create a demonising atmosphere. Nazi Germany here we go!

Chris

I have family in poor rural Bururam and I agree that there are probably no more gays in Isaan than anywhere else. However it is the only place where i have been asked upfront which way i swing, which is a wildly unusual question for the rest of Thailand. So perhaps Isaan is more aware and interested in these things?

Chris

Your wife is right. Leave it to the family.

To be clear, I presume you mean he's smoking cannabis? If so I'm surprised the local law hasn't had him lcoked up by now - it would be a major feather in their caps! I therefore presume that his problems are known and everybody is acting together to try and manage the situation for the long term good.

Be careful with apparent Thai lack of action. They will only tolerate him for so long. When Thais are wound up about something they will behave calmly and tolerently for an astonisghingly long time.... but then they will let go with incredible violence and suddenness! Lets hope your uncle doesn't provoke that!

Chris

I thought the GloabalGayz article gives quite a balanced view of the situation - but it is possible to read it through a Western perspective and get the wrong impression of it. To clarify. It seems to me that the issue in Thailand is not so much discrimination AGAINST gays as discrimination FOR heterosexuals. ie there is huge pressure to marry well, have lots of kids, honour and support the family etc. No one seems to have a fundamental problem with people indulging in gay sex - but they are very focused indeed on promoting conventional family units. This probably owes its basis to the lack of a welfare state. This means that the older generation are dependent on their youngsters taking care of them financially and physically in old age. So immediate self interest is at work in encouraging their children to marry plus there is natural parental concern for the offspring's future prospects when they get to be old.

Westerners tend to get a free ride from these pressures because they are perceived as being wealthy enough to escape the old age poverty trap. It's therefore easy to miss the huge significance of them for native Thais.

As to office and schoolyard gossip. Yes of course. But then the nature of gossip is to focus on difference. I don't think gays get any worse treatment than say Goths or people with any other sort of unusual interest.

On a personal basis my experience is that Thai males have no problem interacting with obvious gays in public. We have a distant family member who is well into Katoe territory - makeup, effeminant mannerisms etc. But when seen at public parties eg at the Wat he is the centre of attention for even the trendiest and most masculine family memebers. It must help that he is a hulking bloke and clearly very strong and he is also known to "have a good head" in the sense of being sensible and honest and caring. Older family members worry for him though at what will happen when he gets older and has no family. You could see this as discrimination - or you could see this as parental type concern for hid future well being.

For myself i seem to have accidentally hit on what Thais regard as the ideal arrangement for a gay couple - my partner is married and has children with his wife - and we all live together. This seems to be generally applauded as an ideal sensible solution!! Now you could hardly expect me to accuse Thais of discrimination with a reaction like that!

Chris

I've read that it is possible for a Thai national and a Farang to make a civil partnership in Vietnam. Presumably you would then register the partnership at the UK Embassy in Vietnam. Then apply for Visa to UK either in Vietnam or in BKK. Personally I'd choose Vietnam simply on the grounds that the Embassy in BKK is staffed by old Etonians who seem to take a particular delight in humiliating Thai's (and their Farang partners!).

Chris

I agree wholeheartedly with the primacy of marketing infrastructure! Round where I live we have a Thai-Danish milk processing plant, so everyone rears dairy cows. Any crops are directed towards cattle feed. Any deviation from this engenders a lot of effort getting the product sold. Thai's aren't known for volunteering for a lot of effort!

You didn't address the soil quality / water issue. Near us we have spike of limestone plateau poking through the aluvial plain. I've looked longingly at this and thought how much like Greece it looks. This has prompted thoughts of olive trees. Anybody seen any in Thailand, any experience?

Chris

To try and get back to topic.

Certainly where we are (Lopburi province, eastern edge against Isaan) the repair culture is well and truly alive! Local visible highlights include a '60's Alfa GTV coupe and a Citroen CX high roof LWB presidential limo with full complex hydrualics. Anyone who can keep either of those running as daily drivers needs major medals!

Oh, and when my watch needed mending (auto wind up type) a chap with classically myopic pebble glasses had all the guts out on a tiny street stall on the pavement, springs and cogs everywhere! And it hasn't missed a beat in the 18 months since!

Chris

Basic problem with electricity saving devices in Thailand is that electricity prices are so low / subsidised that it isn't worth the effort financially.

In consequence I have limited my action to fitting "Savaplug" devices to all our fridges. Fridges use the motor power fully only on start up and then the motor is heavily overated for the running load. These plugs therefore allow a full wave form at start up and then "chop" the waveform during running. There's something like a 30% saving on elctricity consumption, which is significant for a device which is always "on". However in Thailand there is a much more significant advantage - the fridge produces 30% less waste heat! In our house the improvement in temperature in our living room is most noticeable.

Unfortunately the company responsible is currently redisigning it and it isn't currently available! http://www.savawatt.co.uk/index.htm

Chris

Numbers of people here are speculating on Thaksin's motives, next moves etc etc. The thrust of the discussion is around the individual and HIS effect on Thailand.

I think the problem is rather larger. I've always seen Thaksin as a symptom of a very important disconnect in Thai society.

In the past there has been a ruling and owning elite and there has been the people. By and large this elite has governed and behaved in the interests of Thailand as a whole. This has been easy since Thailands success plays to the elite's undoubted love of their own country and people and has translated into wealth for themselves.

What is new is the emergence of a new middle class over the course of the past 15 to 20 years. These people are typically SME owners. Rather than being out of immediate sight of the poor locked away in the capital they are spread all over the country and their wealth is highly visible to the poor.

This has created a dangerous level of dissatisfaction with their lot on the part of the normal rural Thai. This is hugely dangerous as it dials in the essential ingredient for civil strife.

Thaksin has merely ridden this new phenomenen to power. His rule has been characterised by fuelling the expectations of the rural poor with schemes and promises and giveaways whilst irritating the Bangkok elite by abuse of their carefully regulated power structures for personal gain.

Were Thai society to be now left to its own devices I suspect there would be a quiet realignment to remedy the inequality between the poor and the new middle class so that Thailand regains its consensual government. (Yes I know all about the coups etc etc of the past - but essentially they have been ripples on the surface of a broad consensus) It seems to me the big danger of Thaksin returning to politics is rooted in the manner of his dismissal last time by the King (which I hugely enjoyed and applauded). Were he to succeed in his ambition this carries the risk of very publicly and profoundly damaging the King and the whole reationship between the Monarchy, Government and People.

For this reason I do not believe Thailand can afford to allow Thaksin's ambition to be realised.

My prescription? - difficult. I suspect there has to be two threads - First some extreme action to cut off Thaksins plans. Second a very fast realignment of the country's systems so that the rural poor feel valued and included.

This will be a very difficult trick for Thailand to perform. If it fails, civil war beckons.

Chris

Have to say I am very nervous about earthing an electrical installation at least in rural Thailand. Reasonably close observation suggests that almost everything is TT and my impression is there are quite a few faults around on adjacent parts of the system. If you install an earth on your property there is some risk of trying to pull down all the faults from miles around!! Personally I think the better solution is an ELCB on the mains incomer and RCD's on any socket outlets!

Chris

Also note that air con cars have a diesel engine under the floor to power the A/C. For that reason I much prefer 2nd class fan with the added bonus that it's cheapest! Generally a very good class of people travel in sleepers and the attendents are very security concious, so minimal other people worries. The attendants on my line - BKK to NongKhai - distribute proper european breakfasts at only slightly ott prices in the morning which just puts the icing on the experience. For my money it's by far better than flying - all you achieve with a flight is wasting an afternoon getting to/around Suvarabhumi for the privilege of paying for an extra nights hotel!

Chris

I'm sure those of us Europeans who have Thai partners will have become aware that there are numbers of physical differences between Thais and Europeans. One that I have noticed previously is that Thais don't seem to be nearly as good at dealing with changes in temperature as us - either colder or hotter. So let's not have too much of a giggle at people not being able to deal with temperatures that are well withing the normal range for us falang!

Chris

Your respondents have picked out the key issues. It's the detail that trips you up! As an overview Thai's tend to major on how impressive the building is when first completed and not on how durable it is. This leads to selection of poor quality materials, particularely things like windows, doors and paint! And of course the omission of things we would take for granted like U bends!

Be vey carefull in criticising Thai electrics. It is not necessarily a good idea to have a strong earth connection - you might find you finish up pulling down all the faults in all the houses on the local grid! Rather concentrate on having RCD protection on any socket outlets and ELCB protection on the complete installation. It might be worth specifying a ring main for the socket outlets with UK or continental sockets though. The Thais don't generally do high current plug in devices and you might want to use some. Thai style sockets and normal wiring sizes are unsuitable.

I concur heavily with the anti A/C lobby but for a different reason. Thais live much of their lives outside the house, and continually going in and out of cold air will give you colds and chills. Instead fit insulation into the roof space and onto any walls that catch the sun (or shade with trees etc) to minimise the heat gain of the house. By all means keep your options open for later by putting in provision for pipe runs and electrics.

I bet nobady has thought of how to provide hot water to your bathroom and shower. If they have it will probably be electric, but why not provide some solar hot water panels? You can buy easily in Bangkok. You need to think about how to install as they may need some stronger roof structure to sit on or an adjacent bespoke "tower". As of today they are not an economic proposition because of the bizarely low price of electricity - but surely that can't last?

If you want a thernmostatic mixer tap for your shower you're going to have to bring it from outside Thailand - I have yet to find one for sale in the Kingdom.

Best of luck!

Chris

I guess the real answer is that all these guys started extremely poor - otherwise why would they be in this game in the first place? Even if they now have money the habits acquired when home in the provinces or when first in Pattaya (or wherever) will have stuck. These habits go with an attitude that the Farang is the customer and it is his role to pay expenses and or the farang has so much more money than a Thai that it is bad manners on their part not to pay. Note also that the vast majority of possession will have been bought as a present by a farang admirer, so the quality of the phone is no guide to the ability to keep it topped up. And their parent's / family's demands for cash will be expanding in line with their ability to meet them!

Generalisations of course, but a good point of departure for assessing a particular individual's behaviour.

Chris

The actual bridge is really only the tourist freindly tip of the iceberg. The project was to build a supply route into Japanese occupied Burma of which only the section to Nam Tok is still in use. The engineering is quite heavy with many deep cuttings through solid rock and shelves in cliffs above the river. To get the whole thing in perspective take a trip up to Nam Tok on the train, realise it's only a part of the line and then reflect that, in round numbers, one person died for every sleeper (or tie for Americans) in the track today. And note that the vast majority of casualties were asian, so again the allied war cemetry is just the tip of the iceberg.

Chris

Replying to post no 15 above from Hairy - Thailand is very badly placed to sucumb to a hetersexual crossover because of the large number of basically heterosexual Thai men who have no hang ups about indulging in gay sex when it's on offer - which it is a large amount of the time! I don't know if Thailand is unique in this - I would imagine the Phillipines at least has a similar propensity - but it is certainly a very serious risk that Westerners are culturally prone to underestimate. This makes it extremely important for Thailand to tackle the "high risk" groups identified.

As to whether the statistics are exaggerated or manipulated to make a point - this is where anecdotal evidence is genuinly useful. My initial reaction to the 30% infection rate figure quoted for Bangkok gay sex workers was disbelief. I know socially quite a number of these guys and my impression has been that they are generally untypically intelligent - university educated or the like - and also very well educated and clear about protection. Then I had a pause and a think - these guys are generally the cream of the bunch who can work in flashy and expensive bars - there's a whole other level out there of lads lurking about on mall stairwells and cruising Lumbini park. I guess the natural order of things would imply at least a 10 to 1 ratio to the sort of guys I've had direct contact with. In that light the figures are perhaps worryingly credible.

Overall a highly worthwhile report. Lets hope some notice and action are taken.

Chris

Careful chaps!

In the first place I am actually convinced there are genuinly people out there who are not interested in relationaships - so "not married" may be a high suspicion factor, but it's not a clincher!! I have a freind of 40 years who is a resolute bachelor, but who I am quite certain is not gay, despite a certain degree of wishful thinking on my part.

Secondly, you are probably quite right about people born before 1960 having spent large numbers of years in the closety. But just because it isn't necessary now, doesn't necessarily make it any easier for them to come out. There's a lot of cemented in behaviour from years of dodging the issue and whilst they might feel OK in LoS where nobody knows them to start a fresh persona on the pink side, they will probably find it hugely difficult in an environment where they have already made a firm accomodation with their own version of reality.

Please lets have a bit of respect for those who don't (or didn't) have the courage to publicly acknowledge who they are. In my book its OK to share the knowledge discreetly amongst mutual freinds, quite another to blow their cover in ways they or their freinds wouldn't appreciate. Unless of course there's political hypocrasy involved!!

Chris