london

This question has been asked many times previously.....MANY.

You have said that you have read a lot of the Forums already, so really, you should know each side of the coin by now.

Just do what you feel comfortable with.

Sparkling Shiraz !

Dear Wayned,

some of those whose posts that were ill-timed (at best) were by people who just may not truly understand.

Give them the benefit of the doubt.

If they do realise the extent of the tragedy, well, its their ignorance showing through.

Regards

Please, PLEASE to everyone, make sure that you have enough disinfectant and insect spray to handle the after effects.

Overreacting, hoarding, hillarious, blocking overpasses, I've read it all and to me it's unbelievable1

Have you ever lost some or all of your belongings to a natural disaster? I have, twice in the US and now here. The first time was not a problem, all that was left was the water pipes sticking out of the ground, no cleanup required. The second was a flash flood in a non flood prone area. 1 meter of water in the house. Everythig trashed including the hardwood floors and sheetrock walls-expensive and lenghy repair. Now I have water up to the forth step inside my house in Bangkok. At least we knew it was coming and moved everything to the second floor. I'm also lucky to have another house in a dry province where I actually live full time so I don't have any relocation costs. I'm sure that the cleanup cost in Bangkok will be extensive after the water resides since everything that was tierd down is ruined.

The shelves in the local Tesco market and 7-11 are empty and theres is no drinking water. Maybe people are hoarding but did you ever think that the shelves can't be restocked because the distribution centers are flooded and not accessable. The Tesco distribution center near my house in Bang Bua Thong has 1.5 meters of water inside and the access roads are flooded.

Complaints of overpasses blocked and down to one lane because cars are parked on them. These people don't have the luxury of having high rise parking garages to park there vehicles in, If it really floods, their car might be the only dry possession that they have left. I have free parking for your vehicle in Bang Bua Thong in front of my house. Opps, there's only one problem 2 meters of water! Nobody, not even the government, is saying anything about the Thais that are living on the sides of the roads in makeshift shelters and have lost all of their belongings, only that they are blocking the roads and making it hard to get around. If it was you where would you go?

Many Thais have lost everything that they own: houses, crope, belongings, cars, tractors, animals and in some cases family. Many do not do not have the financial ability to rebuild rapidly once the water recides but the ones that I've talked to still have the will.

Instead of complaining and stateing how hilarious the situation is why don't you volunteer and help. You obviously came to Thailand to visit or live because you like it. If you don't why don't you leave. Or better yet go to the beach, dig a hole and put your head in it where it belongs

Your experience in Emergency Services is obviously, from your comments, far more extensive than mine. Firstly, I doubt that the Thias who are suffering this tragedy have cars or the luxury of parking them on Public roads at the detriment of any one else. That is my point. I'm sorry, but for me, access for emergency services is far more important than some individual (or groups of individuals) who is trying to save his car. Sense of perspective here may help ! Its a car.....its not a life !!

I agree that "Many Thais have lost everything that they own: houses, crope, belongings, cars, tractors, animals and in some cases family" and this is a tragedy.

You also make claims that the posters "Instead of complaining and stateing how hilarious the situation is why don't you volunteer and help".

Frankly, you don't know what others are doing.

Sure, some have made derogatory posts that are at best, ill-timed.

Frankly, you have assumed way too much about other posters to this topic and perhaps their experience too.

The different responses are fascinating.

Yes, from here in Thonburi, I have seen it all too. Different people, different reaction.

The panic buying has certainly added to people's woes, as well as some profiteering I have heard about out of the city. 1 litre of water 168 baht (168??? sems an odd price though).

The only thing that I have found to be annoying and potentially selfish, are drivers who have parked their cars on bridges etc, I worry that having now only 1 lane on most bridges is a safety issue as well as restricting the movement of emergency vehicles.

As I mentioned in another post, the REAL issue now is whats coming after the floods. Do be prepared: disinfectant and insect sprays are essential. Disease will be rife as well as a huge increase in the insect population.

I should state form the outset, that I have no intention of scaring people, but I have been very concerned that I haven't seen any information regarding what locals should do NOW to prepare themselves for what may happen AFTER the flooding subsides.

Once the waters begin to subside, it is then that disease and health issues come to the fore as the stagnant waters become breeding grounds for many nasties.....visible and invisible.

I have suggested to many people that they buy disinfectants and insect sprays now.

I hope too that the government has a plan to aerial spray areas to stop any mass breeding of insects, in particular mosquitos.

Preparation is the best defence.

You know London, I believe that Thailand and especially Bangkok has now exceeded the financial abilities of many of those who wished to buy in a third world country, which is staggering beautiful.

Maybe they should consider Cambodia, or Outer Mongolia – IMO the world has changed since they dreamed of their aspirations', and of course reality has, quite brutally set in.

PKRV

Yes PKRV, I do think there is truth in this.

From my experience, the number of foreigners who have come for a "cheap" retirement because they expect Asia to be cheap and then finding it the same, or more costly, as their home is, just staggers me.....and its not just Thailand!

Its just old thinking. No grasp of reality.

Also, many ask how much it costs to live here and are quite staggered (shocked) when you tell them. Some openly dispute it.....thats fine. But they always come back after a while saying that its true.

Sure, there are those who can live here very economically, but my rule is: IF you are going to live in a foreign country, you must have a lifestyle AT LEAST as comfortable and to the same standard as you would in your own country. If not, why would you do it ? I am sure that you would agree.

Dear Darrell,

apologies....should have said "hundreds".

No excuse !!

I really have to get down to Pattaya and check it out. Every market in Thailand tends to have its own peculiarities. Do you know of any very good condos going cheaply or websites I can check them out? I'd really be interested.

Re the Thai quota. Yes, I agree that the Thai's often can't buy them at the prices that Farang pay. Thats another reason why the developers must be stressing out at present. However, whether this in itself causes a collapse, well, we'll no doubt see.

But just quickly on this topic, the issue that I find interesting is that if a development has say 300 apartments: 147 are sold to farang, say 40 are sold to Thai's, the situation re Common Fees is going to be astronomical. Rather than have them split between 300 owners, they are split 187......a very expensive proposition. I am thinking of The River condo...where it is MUCH larger than 300 condos but the Thai ownership I believe is minute !!

Re the 2 month rule: yes, I have been aware of this but I feel that now many sellers are conditioned into thinking that their properties (not just in Thailand) will be on the market for 3 months or possibly more. Its a tougher market out there not necessarily related to over pricing. Its more lack of confidence overall, and lets face it, the press aren't helping this either !!

Regards

So many interesting views and opinions....

Apologies before I start for this longish reply !

From my perspective there is quite some truth in PattayaPhom's post. I remember a few years back one member, a constant doomsayer on Thai property whose name I have conveniently forgotten, continually posting negative posts on Thai Visa. So much so, that I finally bet him that his predictions would not come to fruition.....and they didn't.

Thai property didn't collapse, and thankfully too he is no longer posting.

This is NOT to say that the current situation is the same. But more of that later (below).

I do agree too that there are a lot of naysayers who don't own. Why would they? They feel that the market will collapse so there is no logic behind them owning. Some don't have funds, thats for sure, but many do.....and its their choice to rent. They are involved as renters and this gives them grounds for their opinions too.

I will say from my experience, there are NO experts in the Thai property market....just commentators.

Re Darrell's post: Yes, as I mentioned above, there are those with funds who could easily buy but who choose not to, for whatever reason.

I do wonder if there are hundreds of thousands of resale condos. I do think there may be a few thousand, but I doubt if very many have been on the market for years. Sales of 50% below the average asking price? It may be true....I'd like to see some at these discounts !!

Thai quota units are another story altogether. The reasoning for having a 51% Thai quota is something that the government will no doubt one day address and if it is brought into line with other countries, then you will see a lot of activity in the market where suddenly foreign buyers can own he majority of a development. There are benefits to this for everyone.....but this is a topic for another time.

I don't know about the 2 month rule in the current world financial situation. I agree that it was so in the past, but I don't think that it has the same relevance now.

Yes, there's a lot of truth in rgs2001uk's post too, but the SET hasn't been the most standout investment either. These are just different avenues for investment. Nothing more than that. For the record, I do own shares here....and property.

Sure there are places for better returns: even some fixed deposits will get you 7% + capital guaranteed. Also, to lump ALL condos into the same pool and try to get an average is fraught with danger. No two horses are the same.

I have been happy with my property investments here. Always rented. Consistent 7 - 8% NETT return on current figures. Capital gain is around 5% pa.....I'm not complaining. However, I am sure that you could give me at least 10 case studies of empty apartments with zero growth. Its like shares: some are dogs, some are stallions!

IMHO, pkrv's post is 100% correct !! Its a LIFESTYLE choice !!! Simple. We don't have to worry about finding the rent every month....or worrying that the rent may go up. PKRV and I are of the same opinion, I am sure.

Most points in GreenSnapper's post I think i have covered previously, but a couple here I would like to comment on.

I have been watching other markets where I have invested in property. IF I could buy in the majority of those markets for prices twice as high as some on "lower Sukhumvit", I would be laughing! Certainly, in London, Melbourne and Sydney where I have invested, $1 million won't get you much in the better areas. $1 million here would buy you pretty much anything you wanted. London, well, $1.5 million ++ !

Build quality may be better....BUT that said, there are some condos here that were (note past tense) built brilliantly. Overseas architects, engineers and SITE managers. It makes a difference.

The world is changing....things aren't the same as they were even 6 months ago.

For me, Asia as a whole, is a haven. From my perspective, prices are NOT expensive by international standards and could be said to be cheap.

A bubble ? Perhaps it is....but Thais don't sell for a loss....so that artificially holds a market IF worse comes to worse.

If it is a bubble, sadly, all boats rise and fall with the tide. That said, the better buildings may not have anyone prepared to sell for a loss.....so it doesn't matter.

Also, with all the financial wrenching in the US and Europe, I would suggest that many of the expats or investors who may have been vulnerable and who bought here have actually already exited the market.

Sure, the amount of condos now is ridiculous. We all know that. But whether this leads to an overall collapse, well only time will tell.

It must depend on the building because we never hear anyone !!

Really.

Probably the thickness of the concrete between the floors, the distance between the floors, the floor coverings above you....many things to consider.

The loudest thing we get is the aircon !

http://www.aseanhrme...Act_of_1998.pdf

Thank you so much for the information and link.

It does say in Section 118 (2) if you work at least 1 year and less than 3 years, you are entitled to severance pay of ninety days wages or the previous ninety days wages prior to losing your job.

Sadly Racyrick, you may not get anything due to lack of a contract.

Don't just think that you will get money.......but if you do, then regard it as good luck rather than an entitlement.

Having a contract per se has no bearing on whether the OP gets severance or not....he can prove he is/was employed by the company by virtue of payslips/the DOL has records for the issue of his WP etc etc, and is not a case of luck....if he qualfies he is entitled to the money...luck plays absolutely no part in this...

You and I have different experiences of what can happen here.

He MAY qualify and he MAY be entitled. This does NOT guarantee he will be paid.

He may be made redundant. This alone implies that the company is having a hard time financially. I doubt that their priority will be to pay redundancy payments.

Sadly, luck DOES play a part.

http://www.aseanhrme...Act_of_1998.pdf

Thank you so much for the information and link.

It does say in Section 118 (2) if you work at least 1 year and less than 3 years, you are entitled to severance pay of ninety days wages or the previous ninety days wages prior to losing your job.

Sadly Racyrick, you may not get anything due to lack of a contract.

Don't just think that you will get money.......but if you do, then regard it as good luck rather than an entitlement.

who is the third buyer ?

who knows ?

what do they want it for ? to live in it ? to rent it ? to sell again for profit ?

again, who knows ? From my experience, there are many people who buy to hold with the intention of either renting or living in the place themselves.....but there are others who do try to flick them for a quick profit.

are there even people living in these condos ?

there will be when and IF they are built.

i am mystified as to who the third person is in the equation because really, aren't they the people driving the market ?

No. They are the end buyers of just a minority of the original buyers who buy to flick them for a quick profit. The market is being driven by the buyers who are buying off the plan.

are there really that many people looking to rent in bkk ?

Doubtful.

are there people who would buy to live in these apartments ?

of course

please let me know if my guess at profit margins were correct.

They may be and they may be either too optimistic or too conservative. Frankly, I doubt if they would get the profit you are suggesting..

im interested because i am thinking about buying myself. if everyone else is doing it, there has to be a dollar there right !?

You are obviously a brave person. FIRST rule in Thailand: DON'T BUY OFF THE PLAN ! Second rule: DON'T believe Condo sales people.

1 million baht sadly isn't a lot of money outside of Thailand.

How old is your friend?

Is he retired or near retirement age?

Will he need (not want) this money in the next 6 or 12 months?

Can he afford to lose part or all of it ?

These are more important questions than a simple where to invest.

Frankly, in the current situation, I would be happy to park it in a secure and stable bank and accept the small rate of interest in return for the safety factor.

If he has been making money from the value change in currency, Euro/Baht, then thats just an added benefit.

Be very conservative ...... VERY !

Continue to work with him and tell him straight on the price issue and the double listing you know.

15K above the other same listing is ALOT of money. It could be a buffer amount for prospective client to haggle down the amount too.

If it's just verbal agreement on what ever you have with him be prepare to walk away if nothing works out.

I think you should not pay anything higher than the cheaper listing and i am sure you are still able to get a further discount from it.

Absolutely the right thing to do.

I wouldn't be concerned about confronting your first contact and just outlining the difference.

You'll get it for the cheaper price....if not even cheaper still.

Does anyone buy property as a "short-term" investment ?

Certainly, I don't know anyone, including members here, who have done it, nor I doubt would even consider it.

What returns are these people thinking they'll get ? In what time period: 6 months, 1 year ?

There are many people doing this in Pattaya.

I suspect that many units in most new developments are sold (initially) to people who have not the slightest intention of ever living in them or renting them out.

They hope to buy at a discount to list price and resell later, often before the building is even finished. Sometimes it pays off. Sometimes it doesn't.

On top of that you have the people who buy "fire sale" resale properties in order to put them straight back on the market at a higher price, possibly after a little "renovation" (aka painting) that is usually done on the cheap.

Some property owners here (or their inheritors) might be surprised to learn exactly what happens when they put property on the market at a "quick sale" price with some agents.

We've seen this recently, right? That unit which was sold in a fire sale for 1.9MB, reno'ed for about 500k or so, back on the market in a matter of a few months for 3.9MB. Nice profit.

The guy who did the build out on my house does this with lower end Thai style houses and flips them with a nice profit. The Thai market is doing quite well...the farang market is not...

Well, I live and learn.

Thanks to both of you for the info.

I am a buyer and holder.....but with opportunities like this around, well.....

Thanks again.

Regards

Really, at the end of the day, what does all of this matter?

If you have bought a place to live in for the next 30 years it doesn't matter very much what happens to the value.

However, if you have bought somewhere as a short-term investment (which many people do here) it could matter a great deal.

Does anyone buy property as a "short-term" investment ?

Certainly, I don't know anyone, including members here, who have done it, nor I doubt would even consider it.

What returns are these people thinking they'll get ? In what time period: 6 months, 1 year ?

Oh well, each to his own.

Really, at the end of the day, what does all of this matter?

IF real estate prices are high in Pattaya or Phuket, (and, for the record, I don't think they are in comparison to similar locales around the world) or if they fall, well, it won't be the only place its ever happened.

IF someone decides that they LIKE Thailand and want to live there without the hassle of finding monthly rental payments, in an era when Western currencies are deflating, then really, its their business if they want to and if they CAN buy.

IF people do make money out of their poperties in Thailand or some don't, really, its no-ones business but theirs....so again, does it really matter?

As I said earlier, Thailand, be it Pattaya, Bangkok, Phuket, wherever, is a LIFESTYLE choice.

Its NOT about how much money we are going to make at the end of the day....its about LIVING !!

Personally, as I have said before, I prefer to buy. Always have done and hopefully will always be in the position to do so in the future.

I love living here. Simple. Some love Pattaya, some love Phuket or CM, it really doesn't matter...its their lifestyle choice. They can afford it and they have the guts to live their dream !

Mikeldea's post was spot on.

Don't get caught up in the hype and be re-active, be PROactive.

Get a GOOD lawyer to handle it for you.

I'm sure you'll be ok.

I always found HSBC (all services) to be expensive.

Frankly, for the services that I use, Bangkok Bank is as good as any and also UOB.

I have accounts at Barclays (quite expensive too) and ANZ (rip-off merchants !!!!) and would not recommend them to anyone. Necessity, unfortunately !

All you get is a signed contract and receipts for deposit and downpayments. Title deed can not be issued before the building is completed, even if you should pay in advance. My advice to you is never buy off plan unless you have no problems walking away from it all. Contracts dont mean much in this country, and a builder's good reputation not much more. What you are shown in the prospect is at best similar to the end result. Build finish, material quality and completion time will almost without exception be inferior to what is expected. I bought off plan once, never again... The upside is there, but the downside risk is so much greater. I could elaborate a lot, but nobody listens to advice anyway...

Good luck,

WB

100% correct !!

Hi Cyrax,

having bought property in Thailand over the years, I have adopted one policy that my lawyer advised me to do:

DO NOT BUY OFF THE PLAN

There are too many things that can go wrong and if you think you're guaranteed to get your money back, think again.

I was looking at buying off the plan around 4 years ago, but my lawyer (Thai) advised that due to the fact that builders come and go, specs change, projects don't complete....or if they do, often NOT within the specified time, fitouts change (as I believe is now happening with a major development), it was best to wait until the project has completed.

His view was that the only possible downside may be that the price increased due to completion, "but at least you can sleep at night".

I have never regretted taking his advice.....and I hope its helpful to you too.

"We will guarantee to find a tenant for your 1 million baht (33,500 $) condo that you purchased for the first 5 years.

If we couldn't find you any tenant we will pay you annually 12% (120,000 baht = 4,000 $) ."

There's a technical name for this sort of guarantee.

What is it now? ................

Oh yes, it's <deleted>.

100% correct !!!!

Rental guarantees are always included in the buy-in price, so there is NO WAY they could afford to do this in practice.

Unless you can take out under $10,000USD regularly and back to the UK, its not easy to do it via bank international transfer WITHOUT documentation.

Being with BB, I have always found that whenever I needed to TT money back to the UK I needed to provide documentation as to where the money was coming from.....particularly when the amounts were over 500,000 baht.

As another poster (Paulian) mentioned: its easy to get money INTO Thailand, but without documentation, its very difficult to get it out.

Try to get some sort of documentation as to when you had the funds transferred into Thailand. That may help.

Dear Buffalo Rescue,

sorry, we have heard it all before....

You can get a four bed house in Las Vegas - who really wants a 4 bedroom house these days, let alone one in the middle of a desert !

Las Vegas the rich mans Pattaya - mmmm, here's a new one. I have never heard of that before. Don't quite see it that way, but thats from my perspective.

for a similar price for a decent one bed condo in pattaya. Im talking central city location for around $80,000 - and your point is that this is supposed to represent good value or that Thai prices are over the top ?

You feel that if there is a double dip in the US (more than likely underway NOW) that this will affect Pattaya property tourism? From my info, tourism from the US is down considerably over the last 3 years, so it should have already occurred.

Pattaya is, quite possibly, one of the lowest-class places in the world - another interesting statement. I am sure that many of the members here would appreciate knowing that they live in one of the lowest class paces in the world, let alone those people who thought they lived in the lowest class places say in rural Pakistan, Bangladesh, Congo, Zimbabwe amongst many others !!!

2 bed apartments really arent worth $200,000 regardless of the view or what floor they are on - mmm, and a 4 bedroom property in a desert in a town with spiralling unemployment, in a nation where both the national and state economies are sinking, is worth $80,000 ?

People are buying penthouses for 20 million baht. - not many I would suggest

why? - probably because they have the funds to do so, they like living in "one of the lowest class places in the world" and probably because they can !

And they build quality in the newer places is terrible - really, all of them ?

See the agents there trying to get you to sign up to the new developments because the other ones about 5 years old are starting to show signs of neglect and wear. Id hate to think what would happen if there is a serious earthquake! - and this doesn't happen in Las Vegas ?

Really BR., as other posters have replied, you are comparing eggs to lemons.

For the record, I don't live in Pattaya nor do i have any plans to. I don't think that Pattaya is the star city of Asia, but nor do I think its one of the lowest class places in the world. I know people who live there with beautiful houses and apartments who have an enviable lifestyle and home. The views can be spectacular.

The people make a place. Its not all $'s. People choose to live in Pattaya or wherever because of the lifestyle and the people. If you think that Vegas can give you that, then thats perfect for you. But for those who live in Pattaya, I doubt they would be interested in selling their $200k apartments (or much more) or $500K homes and pocket the difference and move to Vegas. They have made a lifestyle decision.