fsuthai

I live about 500m from there, and did not hear a thing, although wife has been down to get the oil on what was going on, and word on the street is it involves a Younger/Elder brother feud, one of which has brought in some ghetto support. Any rate I'm not walking down there at any time.

Oz

That's probably a wise course of action to not take (but not a very bold statement coming from a "samurai"---so you send your wife?). Any one that would drop an explosive device into a crowd of poor vendors just trying to make a living (or order someone else to do so) is lower than pond scum! The human race needs some kind of litmus test to identify those that are greedy, violent in nature, and uncaring of the life and comfort of others. Those types need to be isolated and restricted (but, these days they seem to be the 'majority'...so it won't be happening anytime soon). Incidentally, people don't live in ghettos by choice and no civilized country should allow conditions that make them necessary.

I was lucky enough to watch the Loy Kratong celebration in my village here in northern Thailand and there were several fireworks explosions strong enough to shake the ground 1/2 k across the rice paddies. They were for amusement here but one or more of those would cause great damage in a crowded marketplace.

Sounds like the bottom line is that the Port Authority needs to be cleaned up. The rampant corruption of public officials is certainly not unique to Thailand but, IMHO, I think the King should devote what energies he can spare to correcting governmental corruption and commercial cheats. He is the only individual here with the influence to effect any substantial changes. Good luck, Thailand...you're too great a nation & people to allow the few 'rich & still greedy' to ruin your country's reputation and concern for the less fortunate.

Paul, MaeRim

I moved to Thailand in Aug., '01 and have literally hated everything my government stood for during the past 7+ years. Today I can finally take a little pride and nurture a little hope with the decisive victory just completed. Congratulations President Obama!!!! I won't be easy but we can restore some respect by the rest of the world for our country...and I don't have to qualify my nationality queries by saying, "I'm an American...but don't agree with my current government and can't stand Bush/Cheney!" Lots of work to do, freedoms to restore, abuses to correct but we can do it! YES WE CAN!

I would like to applaud Thailand for the "King requested" soft approach to solving the cause of the current political protests in Bangkok. The fact that there may be a few disruptions to train travel is a peaceful way of Thai workers showing support for the protesters. I fervently hope that it will remain non-violent! This type of protest in some 'third world' countries, like N. Korea or the U.S.A., would have already been snuffed out by mass arrests (by brutal force if resisted, or even imagined to be resisted). Homeland Security would assure them all a place to stay for many years and America would start filling those FEMA relocation compounds close to Washington.

So, well done Thailand. Keep up the good fight for honest governance!!!

Paul

....you must consider that most probably the management are friends of influent people.

You mean effluent people...?

Don't mean to be a 'nitpicker' over semantics but I believe the most appropriate and proper form would be "<b>affluent</> people".

I asked my wife how much she was paid this time to vote for the PPP in the last elections, she said "nothing", so I asked her to go back down there and get her money. Didn't go down to well, but I thought it was funny.

I think it's funny also!

I dont know a lot about Thai politics and I view this and the events preceding more out of curiousity than anything. however, there seems to be a number of Farang on the forum who are able to work themselves up into a real passion over all this. Is it genuine? If so, what is the motivation? Did any of the parties at election give any hint of proposing policy beneficial to expats?

Have to agree with you, NovaBlue. I find many of the farang comments on Thai politics rather stupid and, I'm sure, very offensive to our "hosts" here in The Land of Smile. Those who complain about voting for 'charisma' and 'big money' determining the victor are not being honest about their own elections back home. Best example of charisma, corruption, "the best that money can buy" etc. determining political outcomes is the dear old U.S. of A.! What a horrible mess the 'educated' electorate of America has provided for the past several decades!!! With a corporate controlled media and multi-million campaign chests, the only real choice the American voter ever has is whichever he/she deems as "not quite as bad as the other" (I hope, I hope). At least Thailand still has free press and multiple candidates to choose from.

I hope the Thais are able to work things out together...America has gone 'down the tubes' so I'd much rather be able to live here in relative peace and stay out of Thailand's politics! TIT

Peace

The last "Drug War" in LOS got some REALLY GREAT publicity. Recently watched a special on National Geographic on Meth (Yaba) and they had plenty of footage of "heroic" soldiers and police standing over dead bodies whilst under the Thaksin regime.

They can do what the Chinese did and are still rumored of doing. Summary execution of all drug dealers, drug addicts, and their entire families, even if they weren't drug addicts themselves and it won't slow down the drug trade one bit. Scary watching footage of scores of people from construction workers to taxi drivers smoking Yaba. It is well known that foremen give it to the workers at the beginning of their shift to increase productivity in LOS.

Yes illicit drugs are a scourge and should be treated as such. But as long as you give someone the opportunity to make in 1 day day more than he makes in a year there will always be drugs available. All harsh drug policies have done is fill the prisons in the US, and SEA not to mention fill the fields with dead bodies. Until the "War on Drugs" is treated as a social and health problem there will be no dent made in the sale or use of narcotics.

GunnyD

Number One: We were hesitant to walk the streets at night prior to Dr. Thaksin's war-on-drugs because of the almost ubiquitous presence of methamphetemine (=ya baa) addicts walking around here. That problem disappeared quickly-- I mean, REAL QUICKLY-- with the remedies employed. Thank God.

Number Two: China is not Thailand and Thailand is not China.

Can't help but notice that you politely refer to "Toxin" as Dr. (did he buy a degree along with a British soccer team?) and you 'thank god' for licensed murder! What kind of a nutcase are you? I'm not really defending drug dealers (most of them are corrupt and unfeeling...Pfizer, Eli Lily, Bristol-Myers Squibb, etc.)

but killing everyone that 'makes you feel uneasy walking around at night' is certainly not a civilized form of behavior. Who's next...gays, people of 'color' (lots of those over here), religious fanatics (lots of those everywhere), anyone with a noticeable birth defect or speech impediment. You're one sick puppy...and, who knows, sick puppies might go on a "black list" if they run out of the dreaded and ever dangerous 'drug dealers'!!!

"When we implement a policy that may bring 3,000 to 4,000 bodies, we will do it," said Mr Chalerm, himself a former police captain.

Scary isn't it?

And in the same time protecting his own part of the business by getting rid of other drug lords.......

"Scary"---absolutely! But, what are the lives of 2,600 (or was it 26,000) killed in the last drug war rampage when the profits for the police & politicians are so high? And, if the 'ruling elite' only eradicate the disenfranchised (drug dealers, 'users', beggers, stoned backpackers, political dissidents, "terrorists"), who cares, right? WRONG! We'd better ALL start caring for its becoming a worldwide phenomenom.

This is just the Thai version of the new world of "faux Democracy" ushered in & made so hugely profitable by the Bush administration in the United States of Amerika! The stupid "Wars on Drugs" are just tools by the government to increase their 'legitimized' police powers, further enrich the 'already haves', and keep the sheeple (the electorates) in line and off balance.

Fascism is alive & well (and expanding rapidly) in this 21st century and you can bet your bottom dollar (while it still has any value at all) that the Western countries & allies (including Thailand, of course) will keep the "War on Terror" active because a fearful population willingly goes along with increased police powers, suspension of human rights, due process, habeas corpus, and other attacks on Constitutional safeguards. It's the blatant quest for POWER & greedy drive for excessive WEALTH that are the driving forces in our world today...and that will likely result in the demise of our existence on this already polluted planet. Shame...it looks so pretty from outer space!

Please let's remember that smokers have rights too. So how about some legal 'smokers only' pubs/restaurants. Non smokers can avoid them if they wish but can't complain if they enter. Desicion to be smoking or non-smoking should be left up to the proprietor.

As a 40 year+ smoker don't blame/penalise me that I'm hooked..blame/penalise the tobacco companies and the governments that did nothing about it, except take the profit & tax, when I was young.

This has got to be the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Grow up and take some responsibilty for your actions. I smoked 2 packs a day for many years. When I decided enough was enough, I quit. "Whah Whah, I'm hooked and it's not my fault. The government made me smoke"

As far as your rights as a smoker, you have the right to die of lung cancer. You have the right to spend your hard earned money on cigarettes. You have the right to smoke in private. You DON'T have the right to blow smoke in the faces of others and this is what you are doing whenever you smoke in a public place. You expect to have "smoker only" restaurants? And what about the rights of the employees that have to work in this smoke filled environment? Are you willing to pay MORE for that right cause I'm sure the employees would only be willing to be subjected to this if you paid them more than if they worked in a "smoke free" environment. Even smokers don't want to be in a smoke filled environment for many hours on end.

Why don't you go lock yourself in your bathroom for 8-10 hours and smoke a few packs and then tell us all if you would want to work in that environment day in day out.

And why don't you & Zpete just go ahead and drink yourselves to death? Please quit hanging around my cigarette smoke. You're beginning to sound like one of those annoying "born again" evangelicals!

Again.........

So they are soooo concerned about getting exposed to second-hand smoke WHILE GETTING DRUNK IN THE PUB.

Logical, no???

I am for a TOTAL BAN ON ALCOHOL, STARTING IMMEDIATELY. And leave the smokers in peace, they do NOT cause accidents, fights etc.

Regards.....

Thanh (non-smoker by the way but don't mind it the least bit)

ban alcohol and cigarettes and serve pot/hash baked goods instead. much more fun at bars. less puking less fighting, more love

"chinadarling", I agree with you so totally!!! And Thanh, I appreciate your attitude and compassion. I've been addicted to nicotine for 53+ years and always try to be considerate about any 'second hand' smoke upsetting others. I cough in the mornings and sometimes a bit before bedtime but it's already too late (now 70) for me to go through the sheer agony of trying to quit completely. I don't go to bars or restaurants often anymore...usually boring and uncomfortable...but I always comply with any 'No Smoking' provisions. If a public establishment doesn't have a smoking area and didn't post that info prior to my being seated, I leave, and won't return.

However, some of you no-smoking-fetishers can be real asses. When I'm in a fresh air venue where smoking isn't prohibited and you walk by and make a nasty comment about my smoking, I'll be happy to put out my cigarette---and tell you where you can shove the butt! It's a filthy habit, right...but the key word there is "habit". My dad smoked until he was 92 and then the last couple of weeks before he died at 94 (of a non-smoking illness). I have no desire to hang around that long, especially with 'Amerika' turning into a re-make of Nazi Germany, but I don't think the Government, any government, should be telling us what we can or cannot put into our bodies so long as we are causing no direct harm to others.

Peace

P.S. What does the oft repeated "L O L" stand for? Also, is there a brief tutorial on how to use all of the posting features here??? hope this works...

My take: The flu never really disappeared.

They just talk about it now because there is, as mentioned above, this conference in town:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-01/...ent_7482746.htm

They have to keep these gentlemen busy.

Slightly out of context the whole drama, but the media obviously love it.

Sorry but I have to disagree with you strongly on this topic. Avian Influenza (bird flu) is not anything to joke about or take lightly. It is a nasty little virus that literally eats internal organs and tissue, mostly the respiratory tract but has attached other body parts in humans. Fortunately for us, it is not spread easily (from birds to humans or human to human) like many other flu virons. It is carried by wild, migrating bird species and domesticated fowl (chichens, ducks, & turkeys mostly) can catch it quite easily if allowed to mingle with the wild birds. The virus is spread in the feces, nasal secretions, and from tear ducts. The wild birds seem to have developed enough immunity to stay relatively healthy but most of them are carriers and some of them are killed by the virus as well.

I haven't checked the latest statistics but as of early March, 2006, there were 39 countries with human infections from H5N1 and 105 of the 186 confirmed cases resulted in death. At that time it had also caused the death or destruction by culling of over 140 million domestic chickens, turkeys, ducks and geese. Since the human fatalities have doubled since then, it is likely that this virus has caused the loss of 200-300 million domestic birds. It is a very heavy economic blow to the industry and a disaster to home (back yard) flocks.

Due to the continued threat of possible mutation to a human/human form of transmission, it is watched very carefully by state health officials and teams from the World Health Organization. Let us all hope that there is no further spread in Thailand. Anyone wishing a copy of a 'bird flu' study course may email me [[email protected]] and I'll attach a copy by return email. (The stats are from Mar., '06 but the history, composition, prevention, control, recommendations, etc. are still pertinent.)

Chok dee...

As I recall, most falanges referred to Taksin and "Toxin"...

What do you mean, most! I indeed now some foreigners who don't like Thaksin, virtually all of them because an important faction in TRT attempted to control somewhat out of control vice and in the process made bars close early. Many who's world stretched from Beach Road to Third, or from Soi zero to Ekamai, I might add.

Yet I also associate with people who do business in Thailand, and there the view is a lot more balanced. Thaksin did a lot to support SME's, and generally handled the economy very well.

Just because you have civilians running things doesn't mean they run smoothly or democratically.

True. But at least there's accountability to the people who can vote you out of office.

Thanks to corporate control of practically everything in America now, including all of the mainstream media and both Houses of Congress, it is very close to being a completely Fascist state.

Ok I'm hesitant to comment on this as it will inevitably side-track the discussion, and some people may have seen in other sub forums that I have equally strong views on your current government, BUT, the bottom line is that elections are held and the public gets to have their say. You managed to go 200+ years without the need to tear up your constitution.

I just wish some of our more reasonable Generals (most of whom have been retired now) had ousted Dubya before he invaded Iraq and looted our Treasury...

The problem with that is that next time it may be a different group of generals with very different agendas. The issue is, it sets a precedent of 'interference by the gun', and the issue is that you don't get a say in who ousts elected government. For all you know they might oust the president for failing to invade a bunch more countries! Now, the reason you had this constitution for 200 years is to stop that from happening, and it WORKS, even though you occastionally have to put up with the occasional goofball. (Like Samak, indeed.)

I see your points, Lilawadee and don't wish to sidetrack the thread either. Besides, I don't think a coup in America would or could be bloodless; it's too big and nearly everyone has weapons. But, since 9/11 which I'm convinced was an 'inside job', the Bush Administration has either been shredding or ignoring many of the civil rights portions of that Constitution and refers to it as ..."just a piece of paper." The traditional freedoms enjoyed most of those 200+ years are dissapating rapidly. Unfortunately, the "people" can't just vote out a sitting President or VP; Congress can Impeach them out but, despite polls showing the majority are calling for this, our congressional leaders are controlled by their corporate backers and not responding to calls for Impeachment!

I'm glad to be living in Thailand, appreciate the hospitality shown to us foreigners, and wish them well for the rocky future that lies ahead.

I'm sure I will be in a minority on this but I felt the military did something necessary for the good of the country and had no complaints about how they managed things once the remarkably smooth 'coup' was completed.

As I recall, most falanges referred to Taksin and "Toxin"...and he was well on his way to trying to achieve a dictatorship and probably drain the Thai Treasury, much like George Bush has done in mine! Just because you have civilians running things doesn't mean they run smoothly or democratically. Thanks to corporate control of practically everything in America now, including all of the mainstream media and both Houses of Congress, it is very close to being a completely Fascist state. I just wish some of our more reasonable Generals (most of whom have been retired now) had ousted Dubya before he invaded Iraq and looted our Treasury...and then borrowed billions more! What a disaster he and Chaney have been! Unfortunately, the already media-declared 'front runners' for the next presidential term have already sold out to the corporate powers also.

Thailand's solution to excessive greed & reckless political power was clean, quick, and effective. They got a lot of criticism but this country has not gone into the toilet like Amerika, nor start wars with other countries just to keep the voters confused and distracted.

I hope the new civilian government will work out but also hope the new Constitution will put a little more constraints on the powers of the P.M. over the will & benefit of this nation!

Chok dee, Thailand!!!

lets be realistic... Pattaya is a den of iniquity, a brothel dressed up so families can fool themselves into feeling as if they are in some resort area. we all must take responsibility for ourselves and not put ourselves in harms way. I have been to Thailand many times, including Pattaya, and i have been threatened and nearly assaulted 5 times. 4 of those times were by Farang who were drunk. only 1 time was by a drunk Thai man. And may i point out, 3 of the 4 times i was threatened by Farang, they were of Russian decent.

So, 3 men of Russian decent (Estonian) decide to fight some Thai men, ....hmmmmmm.... i cant say they deserve to die, however if they had just enjoyed themselves and moved onto the next bar rather than having a few more drinks and acting like they are tough guys and going back to fight the Thai men, maybe we would not be reading about them and all three would still be enjoying their vacation.

perhaps the reason i have never actually been assaulted in Thailand is because i dont play games and tease the girls or tease the touts, and i dont act like the rich Farang, i smile a lot, i am nice and friendly, i dont wear jewelry there, and i have learnt to understand the saying "mai pen rai khrap" (no problem), and i have learnt several polite thai phrases... "excuse me", "thank you", "no thankyou", etc... and i dont go to places that are unsafe, i dont get too drunk, i dont do drugs, and i have learnt to walk away when i see problems starting.

the fact is, some people attract trouble, they look for trouble, they create trouble... so lets not put down Thai people or Thai society because 3 men who were looking for a fight with some Thai men, found a fight with Thai men. we must accept that we will live with the consequences of our actions, so lets act more appropriately.

And one last point... one of the times i was nearly assaulted, i was in Pattaya, on soi diamond, i had just had knee surgery and was wearing a knee brace and had visible scars and over 60 stitches in my leg, and 3 very tall Farang men were wrestling and drinking at the neighboring bar (beside the carousel bar) and the three men were bumping into people and they got close to me and i asked politely with a smile, "gentlemen, please be careful, i have just had knee surgery". the biggest man, about 280lbs, 6'6" tall, decided he would slap me around and tell me to mind my own business.... and before he could actually touch me, three Thai men came to help me. i did not now the Thai men, but they had seen me walking down the street a few times and I remember smiling at them and politely saying "no thankyou" when they asked me to enter their gogo bar . the very big man backed off and left me alone once it became clear many more Thai men were just steps away from joining in to protect me. All i can say is, there are good and bad in all countries... and i have had the honour of seeing the good side of Thailand much more than i have ever seen the bad.

Good post...I agree completely. I've seen a few 'tussles' over here also and the Thais were not the ones that started it.

All of you that keep "knocking" Thailand so quickly should find someplace better to live (if possible). I feel a hel_l of a lot safer walking around in Thailand than I did in my home country, Amerika---and it has gotten even worse than when I left in Aug., 2001.

LOS= land of stabbings,shootings,scams,sleaze,but all with a smile.

thailand is the lowest stupidest filthiest most corrupt third world basketcase on the planet.

but,hey it's cheap...and the women are too...

hehe.....

With that kind of attitude I hope you leave Thailand soon and the 'sleaze' factor will be improved a bit. I haven't been to Pattaya for several years but, even then, rowdy & drunken behavior was not treated kindly...as is the case in just about any "late hours entertainment areas" in just about any country in the world. I think a lot of you posters and too many tourists forget that WE are the foreigners here!

This kind of incident is indeed sad and unfortunate, especially for the Estonians, but I think it maligns Thailand unjustly. I've visited a lot of foreign countries on all of the continents and I still regard Thailand as one of the most receptive and the Thai people as likely the most friendly of them all. The falangs in this case were stupid. They were also likely a bit drunk with too much testosterone flowing; always a dangerous combination. That something like this could happen out on a 'walking street' with police nearby and hundreds of people around IS the fault of the police & bar owners. Gang elements should be cleaned up and people of any nationality walking around obviously 'drunk' or 'stoned' or bouncing off lightpoles on Ya-Ba (sp?) should be transported to their hotel, home, or a friendly cell (with a small fine to cover expenses).

I also think the "headline" of this thread is incorrect. This should not be treated as a "murder", it is a case of "manslaughter" and should be a homicide investigation. The guy was stabbed in the leg and bled to death; should not have happened but hardly seems the 'intent' was to kill him!

Thailand is different from many Western countries in that many Thais actually believe it is okay to "rip off" (take, steal, borrow without return, etc.) from falanges because they think we are all rich and should be sharing in the first place. But, most of them do not think that way and are genuinely kind, friendly, and trustworthy.

Just my opinion! Condolences to the family & friends of the deceased...

Ahhh! I see we have another naive pinhead posting here:D Let me clue you in buckwheat, the U.S. Constitution governs U.S. citizens and legal immigrants on U.S. soil, now just what part of this picture don't you get my simple minded friend? Torture or any sort of duress is illegal in the U.S., thats why these slugs are interrogated at GITMO and elsewhere outside of the USA. What goes on at GITMO and any other U.S. interrogation facilities around the world is childs play compared to the way the Chinese and Russian governments routinely treat their own people on their own soil, not to mention the way the mexican government treats the indians in chiapas and situations similiar to that in S.America, Africa, the middle east, ect. ect., you get the picture now! Bin laden and his slugs brought the fight to the U.S. (a very big mistake on his part)

A big mistake? Bin Laden was a relative nobody before he did that. Now he's every extremist's guiding light. I'd say from his view it was pretty successful. And then the US response made it even MORE of a success. (Blindly lashing out at a Middle Eastern dictator that Bin Laden dispises about as much as Mr Bush does.)

See, the trouble with many people is that they completely lack the ability to see things from their opponents perspective. It's the old saying "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer".

I knew Bush would completely embarrass himself and his nation about 30 minutes after the towers fell, when he said something like 'These cowardly acts'... Okay.. call it murderous, call it anything, but 'cowardly' shows that you have no concept of what just happened: 20 or so young men giving their lives for their cause, and managing to strike the ultimate power in the world in such a way that it still resonates 7 years after. They managed nothing short of a 'Pearl Harbour', and with very limited means but the willingness to give one's life.

Again, it's murderous terrorism, but I honestly can't call it cowardice. Bush didn't get that then, and thousands of dead US soldiers later, he still doesn't get it now.

I see we have another apologist for the radical islamic terrorists If you have a difficult problem calling the acts of terrorisim that occured on 9/11 cowardice, then it clearly shows where your alignment is. When a terrorist travels to a foriegn country with the sole purpose of murdering over 3000 innocent civilians (many of whom were not even Americans and many of whom were indeed muslim) then yes that is the very definition of cowardice. If these "young men" as you put it, were fighting an occupying force on their own soil then your point might have some validity, but the acts of 9/11 were nothing short of cowardice and to try to rationalize these acts and be an apologist for these scumbags is really sick, and if there is such a thing as karma then you have a healthy dose of negative karma coming your way. These "young men" were extended the opportunity to come to America and trained to fly those aircraft in America, because the U.S.A. is a place that opens it arms to people from all over the world to better themselves and their families lives, and then to take advantage of the hospitality and the opportunities that they were afforded in America and carry out such dispicable acts is indeed the very definition of cowardice (kind of like inviting a homeless individual into your house, and then having him stab you in the back when your sleeping). America is not just a nation of entitled people that just all of a sudden popped up on the scene, America is melting pot of driven, hard working people from all over the world that sought out a place where they would not only have an opportunity to make a better life for themselves and their children, but also a place where they would have freedoms that are denied in most other countries. It is truely sad that you feel the need to rationalize the pathetic actions of these terrorists!

What a pile of crap, Vic! If you really believe such a fairy tale about 'the land of the free, the home of the brave', then you are worse off than the average American high school civics class graduate. Like most 'civilized' countries in the world, America was stolen from less sophisticated (as in greedy, rapacious, cunning) and poorer armed inhabitants. It was enlarged by conquest, exploitation, deceit, and other unfortunate traits that seem to be the dark side of human nature. Unfortunately, the strongest, most corrupt & most cruel, usually win! No disrespect intended towards Thailand's great King, but "Royalty" today are just the offspring of the ones that out-fought or out-witted their rivals a long time ago.

As for being a 'melting pot', you're right. [Please note that "your" is not the same as "you're".] However, America is composed of many races because our early robber barons, northern industrial tycoons and southern plantation owners needed laborers (improrished 'huddled masses', slaves & coolies). It was pretty open to immigrants from any place early on and many have thrived because of our freedoms gained by the insight of our founding fathers that resulted in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. I'm not "knocking" America...it was a great country...at several brief periods of history past! The original inhabitants were much better 'custodians' of the land but our mainly European forebears did a rather remarkable job and made many positive influences throughout the world. But, Saints they were not and, since gaining a lot of international influence by helping to win WWII, American foreign policy has been typically dictated by self-interest, greed, manipulation, and/or coercion. Our foreign policy has been a disaster for far too many of the world's inhabitants and has moved us from "most favored" to "most feared" nation in the world.

I'm no "apologist for radical islamic terrorists" but when the FACTS about 9/11 come out (and they will, eventually) I think you will regret your comments above. The attacks on the WTC were acts of terror but, more importantly, they were acts of treason. I know, I know...most of you will shake your heads and just mutter that I'm just another crazy '9/11 truther'. The sheer enormity of the crime makes it extremely hard to believe but the attacks on America on September 11, 2001 were an INSIDE JOB. The 9/11 Commission Report was another 'whitewash & cover-up' that is full of unexplained coincidences, witness exclusions, official testimonies that have since been shown to be lies, crucial investigation aspects that were not performed or even considered "for reasons of national security", and praised as the "full, true story" by the perpetrators of the heinous crime...the CIA and the Executive Branch of the U.S. Government. It is almost a given that certain members of our Congress and Chiefs of Staff had to be involved also.

I didn't believe it at first either, but I did accept the challenge to examine some of the online 9/11 postings questioning the 'official version'. I started with AE911Truth.com and read why nearly 200 highly regarded and professionally trained architects and engineers (from many countries but mostly the U.S.) are completely convinced that the collapse of the Twin Towers and Bldg. #7 were caused by controlled demolition charges, not the impact of the fuel laden commercial airliners. Further, that a host of demolition experts agree with them, that a slew of commercial pilots have gone on record to say there is "no way" that the single-engine, partially trained Muslim pilots could have flown those commercial multi-engine jets so accurately into their targets (and that five of those Muslims took free english courses at U.S. military bases in America because their english was so bad), that the recorded flight paths of the highjacked jets could only have been accomplished by experienced commercial pilots or ground-controlled automatic piloting, that the White House "Situation Room" (where Chaney just happened to be that morning) has such technology and that Chaney issued a direct "Stand Down" order to the Commander of the North American Air Defense Command when he wanted to scramble fighter jets at the first reports of multiple hijackings, that most of the fighters of the NAADC had been sent to Canada & Alaska to participate in 'mock' war games that morning, that 3-4 other 'mock attack' exercises were scheduled for that morning, involving one by CIA operatives that might fake an attack on NYC skyscrapers by a commercial airliner, that a FEMA group had set up operations in WTC #7 to practice 'emergency disaster procedures' in case of terrorist attack on civilian skyscrapers but all of their records of that 9/11 morning were destroyed when bldg. #7 'just fell down' many hours later & the FEMA staff (& then-mayor Guiliani's crew) had evacuated the building...and on, and on, and on. There is so much more that I won't 'bore' you readers with but nearly all of the only 911 blogger sites have links to others---but don't go there if you can't handle the truth!

If any of you think it just too incomprehensible to believe that the American government could attack it's own citizens, fine---just bury your heads in the sand (but you'd better cover your derriers also). Read the excellent book by Naomi Kline, The Shock Doctrine. It's like a blueprint of Fascist state building. Create an enemy (Muslim extremists), cause a major shock to the country (they don't get any bigger than 9/11, yet), then, while everyone is confused, afraid, shocked -- take control of the country; with Homeland Security (our own Gestapo), the Patriot Act ('authorization' for violations of laws & civil rights/liberties), kidnappings (some in foreign countries), renditions, suspend habeas corpus, torture, keep everyone off balance by starting wars (Afghanistan & Iraq), warrantless spying on anyone, arrest of anyone deemed "an enemy combatant" without proof or appeal, drain the treasury, borrow billions more---hey, beginning to have some doubts about the new Fascist United States of America????

There are so many unexplained contradictions to the official version of what happened that it will amaze and astound you. I still love my country and fervently hope that it will somehow change course and return to what it CAN be, a leader of nations fighting for the benefit of our planet and humanity. Tackling issues like global warming, hunger, disease, education, health care, and human rights abuses worldwide. But, most corporations make more money out of war than peace and, right now, they OWN America. Our distracted & stupified electorate is still buying into the fake election being controlled by the corporate controlled media; TV, newspapers, and radio. But, unlike Bush/Chaney, we Americans are not all bad people. Most of the people want to end the wars and change our country's course but I just don't think they realize how bad the situation has become. I'm almost 71 now and not likely to see any real changes but I do hope for the future. Right now I can only apologize to the world...and hope my country can shed it shackles!

Chok dee to us all...

And for all of you "my country right or wrong"(ers) out there, just remember that true patriots question authority, slaves obey!

Some of you people are unbelievable. Apparently many have a tough time here relating to the real victims of some of these terrorists acts.

Your evidence for this outrageous statement ? That some of us condemn torture or terrorism by whoever carries it out ? The terrorist-victim & tortured innocent-man are both equally victims of extreme injustice !

Believe it or not, we're all suffering here from mass bombings and future threats... We just want it stopped and want to get to the bottom of the acts.

Agreed - but this does not justify atrocities or torture, by either 'side'.

So.....if one of these guys for a fact is involved with or has knowledge of killing YOUR parent or child via one of many unthinkable acts (or one yet to come), you're going to worry about HIS rights?!?

How do you know he's involved for a fact ? Until it is proved, darned right I am concerned about physical-torture, of a potentially-innocent person. What if it's you who is mistakenly in the 'hot seat' ? Don't you want me to be against your being tortured ?

I don't think you'd just sit there and be easy on the guy. Or...then again maybe some of you would from some of what I've read here. How to win arguements - by slurring your opponents ?

We're talking about "waterboarding".....where the person believes he is drowning, but in a controlled environment. He thinks that death is imminent, so he talks (which is what we all want, right?). There is no physical damage.

Which fits the definition of torture quoted earlier.

What you're saying here, and I exagerate only slightly, is that torture is OK, because it's done by 'our' guys, who never make mistakes or get carried-away, and anyway they're probably all guilty.

If you simply want the the prisoner to talk, as I do too, can't you use drugs or a lie-detector, to find out the truth ? I suspect that there is an element of revenge here, which is totally wrong, because some of these people are later found to be innocent. I repeat the point which I made earlier - how would you apologise, to an innocent man, who you had just wrongly tortured ?

Let alone the likely result of false-confessions, misleading the anti-terrorist effort.

You make it seem that the CIA is going to a Muslim enclave and saying "eenie, meenie, minie, moe"... and then picking a random person out of the crowd. Trust me, that's not how it works.

The agency is intercepting communications, receiving tips from trusted/reliable informants, etc before declaring an individual a subject of interest.

Waterboarding is but one technique used to interrogate a detainee. A polygraph may be used to discern if someone is telling the truth (when providing information), but it cannot be used for "force" information out of someone, and it is not always a reliable tool anyways. Don't believe the nonsense you see on television concerning polygraph tests. With proper experience/training, a polygraph can easily be fooled. (If you strongly believe something to be true, even if it is a lie, then it is "true").

If I were to torture a person that was later found to be innocent, I would say "Sorry mate; no hard feelings right?"; then go on with my day. If my attitude appalls you, then so be it.

I'm sure you and any of the other 'they deserve whatever they get' commenters don't CARE what anyone else thinks but, frankly, it does appall me---and I would hope that you would serve some prison time for doing so. Waterboarding or any other form of torture is illegal, by U.S. law (which is why "renditions" and 'out of country' torture sites were started), by International law (the U.N.), and by the Geneva Convention...to which the U.S.A. is a signed member. Not only is it morally indefensible, forced confessions are very seldom reliable and too often lead to other miscarriages of justice.

That such activities have been carried out by CIA operatives is not surprising for that particular branch of the U.S. government has been violating U.S. and International law for many decades!!! They have been particularly 'out of control' since the arch-criminals Bush/Cheney stole the 2000 & 2004 elections. I hate to have to admit it but my country deserves the wrath of most of the other countries worldwide; particularly those with some natural resources that our CIA-assisted Corporations could buy or steal.

There is no real defense or excuse for what America has become. Most U.S. citizens are completely unaware of the atrocities that have been committed by our government...but that is not an adequate defense or explanation. (Most of the German population prior to WWII were 'unaware' of the pending horrors committed by Hitler's fascist state.) Most of us just believed what the media kept repeating: that everything was okay, the Cold War was won, the economy was booming, so just enjoy life---watch the never-ending variety of sporting contests, sit-coms, variety shows, 'reality' shows, celebrity gossip & adventures...ad nauseum! AND THEN WE ALL GOT RAPED BY OUR OWN GOVERNMENT!

I think most of my fellow countrymen & women still don't realize it. They get no real news over there! All of the main stream media is now corporate owned and all are benefitting from a continuation of resources (mainly oil) exploitation and constant state of WAR! The American people have been so "dumbed-down" by the media and so divided over moral issues (abortion, gay rights, school prayers, etc.) that they are just beginning to realize that "we the people" no longer control anything. The farcical election now going on is not going to change much; both major political parties have been bought by the corporations so it won't matter very much whether the next President is a Democrat or another repugnant Republican!

Needless to say, I'm pretty pessimistic for my country for the next 4-10 years. But, I think some serious change in direction is beginning to stir (thanks to a few independent news outlets and access to the Internet). If the world is lucky the right-wing maniacs (Muslim or Christian) will not blow us all up and we can proceed with people issues like global warming, education, health care, food & shelter, civil rights, legal equalities, and so forth.

Chok dee to all!!!

It's interesting when a farang is knifed to death and dumped in the ocean by another farang under mysterious circumstances it's a funny story, but when a farang tourist is killed by a Thai its an international incident that warrants tremendous criticism of Thailand.

Give it a rest Sunrise...this will definitely be an "international incident" also.

hmm looks like a death sentence case

I hope so...they deserve it!!!

I can't believe how many of you &lt;deleted&gt; are cheering for the death penalty over dealing marijuana & herion. I don't think herion has ever killed anyone and I'm positive that marijuana hasn't! Alcohol and nicotine kill thousands every year but, due to commercial greed and taxes, they remain legal. Use of any drug should be a personal choice based on health risks and whether it endangers anyone around you.

What kind of fool are you? Heroin never killed somebody? You must be out of your mind!!!About 110 people in a small city in Germany got killed by Heroin over the last 20 years. The last I've heard was a 23 year old girl, who died overdosed in Kitzingen/ Germany. And she was a friend of mine. Many had HIV and other diseases. All of them are dead. Because Heroin doesn't kill anybody? You really don't know what's going on. Mike

I forgot to add something. Have you ever seen living Zombies, like in Frankfurt near the train station? people who're trying to stick the needle in, but they can't find a vene? Other;s on crack, who think they're a bird, or something else...? But you can't even write HEROIN. You've got access to the Internet, why don't you check something before you're writing such stupid things?

Okay, enough already! I made a couple of mistakes in my earlier posting. First, I was thinking the article said "hashish" & marijuana; not "HEROIN" (is that spelling better, Mike?). I also want to apologize for calling all of you intolerant rightwing hardliners "&lt;deleted&gt;"; very imprudent of me. Mia culpa. That's just my opinion of people that want to kill others for having anything to do with drugs they don't happen to use. (And yes, I'm sure a lot of people think I'm an ###### due to many of my expressed opinions.)

I don't make any pretense of knowing a lot about 'hard' drugs but I have been in favor of legalizing marijuana since I first tried it back in the mid-50s. I'm a septuagenarian now so it isn't likely to happen in my lifetime...but, hopefully, it will become a legal alternative to alcohol some day!

I don't advocate any drugs for kids, or adults, but I do firmly believe that adults should be free to decide whatever they might want to ingest so long as it does no harm to others. I don't want the State (or church/religion) dictating personal, moral choices made in private.

I would also like to add that G.W. Bush is my president also, although certainly not by choice! I don't think he measures up to a comparison with Hitler, yet...but he is gaining on him rapidly. He is definitely the worse U.S. President ever! He has destroyed our reputation and goodwill worldwide, practically bankrupted our treasury, devalued the U.S. dollar, ignored our Constitution & Bill of Rights and should be IMPEACHED by the U.S. Congress and found guilty of "crimes against humanity" by some international tribunal. Not to mention his responsibility for the deaths of hundreds of thousands in his illegal war over oil...despite his hypocritical claims about WMDs and 'spreading democracy'! He's not the only one that has betrayed "we the people" (Cheney, Rice, inept members of Congress, et al) but that smirking Texas turd needs to be kicked out of office before his tenure expires! [For those of you that don't know, a "turd" is American slang for 'a piece of shit'! I can say that because I'm a citizen of a democracy with a Bill of Rights guarantee of "freedom of speech". Can't threaten him, but can insult him!]

Other than that, I just want to live quietly & peacefully in this wonderful Thai countryside. I share the opinion that law-breaking falanges reflect poorly on all of us but I think the big SUVs, ostentatious homes, and bossy attitudes do us as much harm as the occasional outlaw(s).

My apologies to any of you that I have offended---NOT!

Grumpy old ###### fsuthai

hmm looks like a death sentence case

I hope so...they deserve it!!!

I can't believe how many of you &lt;deleted&gt; are cheering for the death penalty over dealing marijuana & herion. I don't think herion has ever killed anyone and I'm positive that marijuana hasn't! Alcohol and nicotine kill thousands every year but, due to commercial greed and taxes, they remain legal. Use of any drug should be a personal choice based on health risks and whether it endangers anyone around you.

What kind of fool are you? Heroin never killed somebody? You must be out of your mind!!!About 110 people in a small city in Germany got killed by Heroin over the last 20 years. The last I've heard was a 23 year old girl, who died overdosed in Kitzingen/ Germany. And she was a friend of mine. Many had HIV and other diseases. All of them are dead. Because Heroin doesn't kill anybody? You really don't know what's going on. Mike

I forgot to add something. Have you ever seen living Zombies, like in Frankfurt near the train station? people who're trying to stick the needle in, but they can't find a vene? Other;s on crack, who think they're a bird, or something else...? But you can't even write HEROIN. You've got access to the Internet, why don't you check something before you're writing such stupid things?

hmm looks like a death sentence case

I hope so...they deserve it!!!

I can't believe how many of you &lt;deleted&gt; are cheering for the death penalty over dealing marijuana & herion. I don't think herion has ever killed anyone and I'm positive that marijuana hasn't! Alcohol and nicotine kill thousands every year but, due to commercial greed and taxes, they remain legal. Use of any drug should be a personal choice based on health risks and whether it endangers anyone around you.

Great to hear but as always all talk no action.

Smoking is disgusting as are smokers

I'm a 70 y.o. smoker (since age 16) and have ALWAYS tried to be considerate around non-smokers. I am definitely not going to spend the last few years of my life in the misery of "craving nicotine"! Especially to please some Ass H. that thinks I'm 'disgusting'. I don't like being addicted to nicotine but I'm not nearly as nice a person when I can't smoke!