SurfRider

"Of course, after creating general mayhem and confusion, it'll be changed again in a few months, like the 40k/month income requirement and 400K in the bank c*ck up."

Or the defunct requirement to trek to the MFA office and stand in line for a day for a stamp -- or the requirement to provide copies of a valid bank credit card, etc., etc. ( on my 1st Retirement Visa, I was instructed to return in the afternoon to pick up my passport and bring a bottle of Black-Label "for my boss" - I asked if that was legal - she said "yes, and my boss will approve your visa" -- I dutifully complied -- later, my friends rolled on the floor laughing & saying I can't believe they got away with that one again! )

"wondering if anyone can tell me where to get Milk Thistle around here"

At just about any pharmacy -- Fascino definitely has it --

Brand name is Legalon --

Generic names: Samarin or Silymarin --

Standard dosage 140 mg

"That, or you could use synergy or KaVoom to transfer the keyboard and mouse commands between PCs. (Synergy is cross-platform - XP, MacOS, Linux - not sure if it works on Vista though.)"

Yes! -- I used a standard KVM for years with four monitors on one PC linked with another single monitor PC ---

Synergy is SO MUCH better and easier -- even supports copy/paste between the two PCs --

http://synergy2.sourceforge.net/

For the multi-monitor gear, might be worth checking eBay --

Back when Matrox 4-port PCI cards were over US$700, I bought one on eBay for US$125 --

OH, Sorry! -- Thought you said Fun-Tasy Bar!

( probably the best hidden obscure Bar this side of Shanghai )

Looks inviting, but tonight @ 9:30 -- completely empty - a vast wasteland --

I've heard that there's a radical new technology that might have helped locate this place in less than 90 Thai Visa postings over 11 days -- Not sure, but someone said it might be called a M-A-P

Maybe some day this new-fangled gadget will find its way to this corner of the world while we're all still on the planet . . .

"mod like crow boy" <-- Any chance of a translation into English?

Dream on little Broomstick Cowboy -- it's a Fantasy!

I've lived right across the street from Jomtien Complex for 4 years and know most of the restaurants and a few of the bars --

I had never heard of the "Fantasy" Bar --

Tonight, on a quick jaunt to one of my favorite JC eateries, I decided to take a minute to poke around and see if I had actually missed the "Fantasy"

I hadn't -- it's a Fantasy -- it doesn't exist!

For anyone hoodwinked enough ( as I briefly was ) to make a trip to Jomtien -- don't waste your time.

( Actually, for the next person stupid enough to think that just what Pattaya/Jomtien needs in another Bar -- "Fantasy" might be just the right name . . .

"Income letters are now only valid for one renewal"

Two years ago the #2 Imm. officer in Pattaya told me that the original Embassy letter was valid until the expiration date of your passport and a copy would be accepted -- That's ALL changed!

You'll now need a new letter every year and --in addition-- a copy of both sides of a valid Credit ( or Debit ) Card -- You can black-out a few vital numbers in hopes of protecting against identity theft and credit card fraud.

"i got fined only this week in phrom thong on tuesday for smoking outside a public park."

"thats one place i wont visit again"

Well then, I guess you would have to admit that the ban is working.

Once enough puffers do the same, us non-puffers will have at least one smoke-free park we can count on

"Can't this be done by post?" -- Highly doubtful, as you say TiT!

Such is life in this bizarre corner of the uncivilized 3rd world --

As my friend and I were discussing the senseless nature of the ATM/Credit Card requirement this morning and how it proves nothing as to "financial health" ( allegedly the announced purpose ) -- I couldn't help but wonder if any of the Thais in the office had even a fragment of a clue as to how ridiculous the new requirement is and what they would think if they actually woke up to nonsensical reality of it?

Today, I renewed my Retirement Visa at Pattaya Immigration --

I had several questions about the new procedures for which I had not previously been able to find adequate answers --

For whatever it's worth ( maybe nothing , these issues have been resolved as follows:

I was prepared with a photo-copy of both an image of a local Thai SCB ATM card ( without my name on the front, but with my signature on the back ) -- and a normal U.S. Credit Card with all the bells & whistles --

I included the copied SCB ATM images with my application packet-- with the last 8 digits on the front blacked out and ALL seven digits on the back image blacked out --

Nothing else was requested and they made no comment about what I submitted -- thus, yes, a local ATM card without a name on the front and pertinent data blacked out is apparently acceptable under the new edict --

A friend was in the queue ahead of me and likewise armed with two card images -- He also had the optional large cash deposit in the bank ( 800,000 Baht?, can't recall the required amount ) -- He was not asked for the card images -- thus, apparently only paupers with an embassy letter affirming their regular income are required to submit the ATM or Credit Card images

For my past two RV renewals ( 2005 and 2006 ), a SIGNED COPY of the Embassy Income Verification Letter was sufficient -- This year they confiscated the original letter, even though the same person who took the letter had told me in the past that a copy would be accepted up until the expiration date of my passport, which is the year 2014 --

Obviously this is a major change in policy which will necessitate buying a new Embassy letter each year ( Cost: US$30 ) and either a trip to the Embassy in Bangkok or a rendezvous with one of the Embassy outreach programs in a few major towns outside Bangkok -- ( my next quest will be to find out if it's possible to buy more than one embassy letter at a time to avoid a separate trip to the embassy each year )

In the past two years, I received my Visa renewal during the same early morning visit when I applied -- This year it was necessary to return at 4:00pm to pick up my passport and visa --

Life continues . . .

If this mickey-mouse requirement continues to stand, I would suggest some preparation before going to Pattaya Immigration to feed the Ogre.

My suggestion would be to copy the card at a service that has a very high quality copy machine ( there's one in a large Real Estate office next to the Hanuman Statue in Jomtien, not far from Immigration )

Black-out the sensitive data on the copy-- at least four digits on the front of the card and the 3-digit Authentication Number on the back.

Then, have them take the two blacked-out copies and make a third copy of those copies.

Any experienced fraud technician can "look" through the blacked-out area on the original copy with a magnifying instrument, or use a specialized light-source or solvents to remove the black-out agent entirely. I've seen it done.

If you use a copy of a copy, this is not possible and you should be as protected as you can be.

Sign the final copy and hand it in with your packet of data at Immigration.

Probably best to have the Card with you for your interview in the event that they want to verify that it matches the copy.

I'm the one who contacted the U.S. Embassy, American Citizen Services (ACS) in the #55 post appearing above.

My concern was that divulging this information lays the person open to possible Identity Theft and Credit Card Fraud, since there is no security in the Immigration Office and various employees, non-employees, family members, couriers, etc. could gain access to this data and use it for nefarious purposes.

From the reports that I've read & heard about this practice from retirees who have been through it so far at Pattaya Immigration, the facts do not mesh with the story that Pattaya Immigration gave to Bangkok-ACS.

Immigration told ACS that they only ask for Credit Card images "for a case in which the applicant cannot provide a bank statement showing monthly income or a bank book that has enough funds"

Clearly, they are requiring this of **ALL** retirees regardless of financial status.

I find the fact that they can't even seem to tell the truth to the U.S. Embassy to be of great interest!

The Plot Thickens...

For whatever it's worth, I contacted American Citizen Services at the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok for their comment on the recently established practice of Pattaya Immigration requiring a copy of the front and back of a valid Credit Card when a Retiree renews a Retirement Visa.

My concern is that divulging this information lays the person open to possible Identity Theft and Credit Card Fraud, since various employees, non-employees, family members, couriers, etc. could gain access to this data and use it for nefarious purposes.

If my understanding of the reports that I've read & heard about this practice from people who have been through it so far at Pattaya Immigration is correct, it does not mesh with the story that Pattaya Immigration gave to Bangkok-ACS. I have indicated what I believe to be the suspicious information.

The response from Bangkok-ACS appears below.

Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 15:32:33 +0700

From: Bangkok ACS

Subject: RE: New Questionable Immigration Practice

Sir,

We have contacted the Thai Immigration Bureau head office on Soi Suan Plu, where an immigration officer informed us that her office does not require retirees to submit a copy of their credit card. Applicants will need to show a bank statement or a bank book for an account that contains funds that suffice according to their regulations.

Pattaya Immigration informed us that they will ask for a copy of a credit card only for a case in which the applicant cannot provide a bank statement showing monthly income or a bank book that has enough funds. In this case, the applicant can give a copy of a credit card as a proof of their financial status. The officer suggested that the applicant should cross off any information that they think is crucial for fraud protection, i.e. 3 security digits and signature at the back of the card.

Therefore, retirement visa applicants should prepare their bank statement before going to renew their visa. If they can't, they should cross off important information on the copy of their credit card. Another alternative is to come to Bangkok to renew the retirement visa.

Regards,

American Citizen Services

It's YOUR Credit Card and YOUR private data and YOUR responsibility to keep it confidential.

Whatever your bank says about offering it to anyone doesn't matter.

Immigration has no need for the data and has no right to your private information.

People following the endless diatribe on this issue should be crafty enough to find a way around the problem.

But what about the poor blockhead who hasn't followed this insane issue and stumbles into Pattaya Immigration one day to renew his Retirement Visa and is asked for his Credit Card?

He unwittingly and dutifully produces it from his wallet and exposes himself to flagrant identity fraud and serious financial loss and endless month or years of attempting to set the ship afloat once again?

Be prepared, don't expose yourself, and don't play their silly game!

Unfortunately, the answer to your query is yes and no.

Maybe you do provide it to buy a burger, I don't -- not in Thailand!

But if you choose to, at least it's for a legitimate understandable purpose and it's traceable to a specific transaction and location.

There is no justifiable purpose for Immigration to collect this private confidential information.

Once this information is in the hands of a devious "professional" it becomes a breeder-hook into a series of confidential databases that will reveal far more about you and your family you may even know about yourself.

Trust me, I've seen it done.

It's only the tip of the iceberg.

I'm not inferring that it's necessarily their official intent to steal the data that should remain confidential --

But once it's divulged, it could become available to anyone in the office-- including many non-official employees, interns, couriers, other assorted unknown employees in Pattaya, Bangkok, etc.

Identity theft is a very big ugly expensive problem -- do a search on it if you want to read some real horror stories --

It can take years to clean up the mess once the data is out there --

There's a huge black-market in Asia for the type of information that they're requiring retirees to divulge --

I strongly suspect that any deference to "legit objections" would be far superceded by their desire to obtain the data --

The credit card requirement for a retirement visa sounds like some renegade yahoo run amok and would be legally challenged and shot down in any western country in a nano-second --

If it prevails, best solution would be to open a local account with a minimum deposit - provide the mickey-mouse copy of the ATM card, then cancel the account --

Please count me in -- Thanks!