jfchandler

Here's a DUH idea for Thai immigration.

Too logical?

As you've proposed it, Jing, it strikes me as a kind of dumb idea...

So, you want to exclude from consideration all the other kinds of non-pension income that people receive and use -- interest and dividend earnings....rental property income.... IRA distributions, etc etc...

Those aren't fixed and aren't guaranteed for life...unlike pensions... But they certainly are real and valid income that people can and should be able to use toward meeting the monthly income test in any given year... without having to plunk all the funds down in a useless Thai bank account.

PS- My govt. pension is adjusted for inflation annually, assuming there is a sufficient level of inflation. So in your scenario, I'd still be going back to your "office" to get the new amount certified again and again...

I'd suggest, we stop trying to "fix" the Thai system or in telling them how they can "improve" it... and concentrate on understanding what they're actually doing at present and how people here can best deal with it as it is.

Until you wake up some morning, check online, and find your Thai bank account has been emptied by a crooked bank employee or their BF/GF, or someone who's skimmed your card, or any variation of similar things...

I would be quite interested to see someone empty a time-deposit account before the term is up. Especially as the account has no card attached to it.

Thai bank time deposit accounts certainly are a safer route than regular savings accounts, because of not having card and ATM access, though that wouldn't stop the account from being skimmed by a crooked bank employee...

However, as I recall, there also have been some instances reported here where SOME immigration officers have balked at the use of time deposit accounts for satisfying the income test.... Though, to be clear, as best as I can follow it, time deposit accounts ought to be generally accepted by Immigration as a place for holding the required 800,000 baht.

The Immigration regulation simply says funds in a bank in Thailand. It in no way specifies what kind of account must be used. Of course, that doesn't stop some Immigration offices or officers from bringing their own unique interpretations to such things.

i am in schock...today I was in Nakhon si Thammarat for my 90 days....and I see a paper with new requirements for retirement visa !!

1 : need to have photo of you and your Thai family outside and inside your house !

2 : need to show that your farang pension is every month in a thai bank...

when i say i am a woman alone they have tell me I cannot stay in Thailand I need to have a Thai family !!!!!

wow It's mean that every farang on retirement visa if they don't have Thai family...go OUT

well I am so lost now , I don^t know what to thinck or how ..I am going to manage that situation...

I am on building my house here...I am so sad

I've read your post that you pointed to in the other TV thread... and it really makes no sense...

If the message was really about retirement extensions, how could they be talking about "photo of you and your Thai family outside and inside your house"?

That is the kind of documentation that might sometimes be requested in connection with a marriage-based extension... even though you weren't applying for that.

Either you've misunderstood what occurred, or the local office in question went off on a binge.... No such provisions are being applied by Thai Immigration for retirement extensions.

The Immigration rules are public and translated into English in various places, including here on ThaiVisa. And those rules clearly spell out the eligibility requirement for the various kinds of extensions... And they state nothing like what you have recounted.

The money in the Thai bank reference you saw probably was regarding the other way of satisfying the income requirement for retirement extensions -- having 800,000 baht on deposit in a bank in Thailand.

That's an entirely separate matter from satisfying the income requirement via at least 65,000 baht per month in income. Thus far, there's been no requirement to show/prove or have those monthly income funds brought into Thailand.

There is no requirement that you have the funds in a Thai bank, just that it is in a bank IN Thailand, so use whatever trustworthy bank from your home country you can find, surely the protection rules applies here also, or at least they do not want to be exposed with fraud. Thai banking laws are somewhat stricter to foreign banks operating here.

You're partly correct and partly wrong in your comments above.

The Thai immigration regulation does indeed reference retirement deposits in a bank IN Thailand as opposed to a Thai bank. So presumably that would allow someone to place their 800,000 baht retirement qualifying amount with a bank like HSBC, which is not a Thai bank but does operate here.

But you're not correct in saying that "surely the protection rules applies here also."

The same consumer and fraud protections that would apply to an HSBC account in the U.S. DO NOT apply to an HSBC account in Thailand. The account in the U.S. is governed by U.S. banking laws. The HSBC account in Thailand is governed by Thai banking laws (or the absence of them, in the case of consumer protections).

As an example of that, I talked above about the example of Thai credit card policies on fraudulent charges. Indeed, in the other TV thread, two of the banks that we found those policies regarding were HSBC and CitiBank -- both non-Thai banks. Both had Thai card policies saying cardholders are responsible for anything charged until/up to 5 minutes after they report the card stolen. If you had credit cards from either of those banks issued in the U.S., entirely different and much more consumer friendly protections would apply.

This is Thailand, not your or my home country. The same rules don't apply.

Here's the link regarding HSBC's Thailand credit card fraud/loss policy:

And there's the basically same policy listed by Siam Commercial Bank (a real Thai bank):

The fact the same things like skimming and theft can happen elsewhere is irrelevant. The relevant fact is how Thai banks deal with fraud and theft incidents when they arise... Do they protect the account holder who has done nothing wrong, or they don't. To a much greater extent than elsewhere, Thai banks don't.

I hope you take great comfort in knowing that your signature is protecting your Thai bank account. The thieves who stole my debit card certainly didn't have my name. They didn't look like me. They didn't have any ID with a photo matching the name on my card. But that didn't stop them from ringing up $1000 in purchases with merchants at Silom Complex, not some backalley shop, in less than one hour.

Had it been a Thai bank card, do you think my Thai bank would have refunded the $1000 U.S. to my account. I seriously doubt it, since the transactions had occurred in the less than one hour it took me to get home from the Skytrain and call my bank.

And that's leaving aside the issue of fraud by bank employees themselves. In one of the news reports I've read involving THAI (not farang) bank customers in such a case, the bank's response was to tell the victims to file a police report, and that the bank wasn't responsible for the criminal conduct of its employees who had been draining funds out of bank customers' accounts. Really???

Sorry for the sidetrack into Thai banking... There are plenty of threads specifically on that topic...

My only point was to say, there IS a difference between keeping a large amount of funds (like 800,000 baht for retirement extension purposes) in a Thai bank vs. your home country bank... Don't assume the protections are the same.

The safety of your funds in a Thai bank is not the same as in the U.S.

BTW, can you please tell us how you can get money from a Thai bank card without the pin?

or how you can get money from a passbook without signature and ID document?...

I have yet to find someone here who get this kind of bank problem that has not be solved.

I think you need to become more aware of how Thai banking works here... And there have been lots of news reports here on TV over the years to back it up...

First, bank employees or their relations draining funds from accounts illegally has happened many times... And they don't need any info from the account holder to do so, because they do so internally within the bank. The Thai bank deposit insurance scheme doesn't protect against that, only against the bank itself failing/going bankrupt.

Second, ATM card skimmers and related methods like mini video cameras at ATMs or people covertly watching aim to steal people's card and PIN numbers. Giving them full access to the account in such cases.

Third, Thai bank VISA and MC logo debit cards can be used in the swipe and sign mode, just like other debit cards. No need for a PIN. And at least until recently, for example, BKK Bank had a default daily limit on their bank cards of 500,000 baht... or more than $16,000 U.S.

I had a U.S. bank VISA logo debit card stolen on the Skytrain last year.... And within the 1 hour it took me to get home and contact my bank, the thieves had rung up close to $1000 in charges.

Because of U.S. consumer protections laws, I got all the funds refunded to me by my bank within two weeks. Had it been a Thai bank card, pretty likely I would have been screwed...

I can't speak specifically to debit cards... But in another thread here lately on Thai bank credit cards, we fleshed out just what their protections are in the event of theft...

For Thai banks, basically, the account holder is responsible for everything and anything that's charged until 5 minutes after they notify the bank of the theft...

And, to people's amazement, there was a case where the theft occurred over the weekend and the bank that issued the card wouldn't accept the theft report except by in person with a police report once they opened again on Monday.

Well, I dont see a huge difference in the return between a time deposit here and a time deposit in the UK. And having the money in the bank here means I dont need to pay a fortune to the British consul for a pointless declaration every year. The pleasure I get from not having to do that is well worth anything I might be losing on interest.

Until you wake up some morning, check online, and find your Thai bank account has been emptied by a crooked bank employee or their BF/GF, or someone who's skimmed your card, or any variation of similar things...

And you go to the Thai bank staff and say, please restore my lost funds.... And their response is... Mai bpen rai... Go file a police report.

The safety of your funds in a Thai bank is not the same as in the U.S. or, I'd presume, in the U.K., in regard to consumer protection and fraud safeguards.

Does that happen often? Probably not... But does it happen and if it does, are you screwed? Absolutely yes.

This thread is now at 27+ pages.... and still no evidence that Thai immigration has made any kind of broad policy change in how they deal with income verification for retirement extensions of stay -- contrary to the OP..

I can only suggest, rather than debating the fairness of various potential policies and changes that haven't occurred, it might be more productive to focus on what Immigration actually is or isn't doing when people show up to apply for their extensions...

In that end, that's what ought to really matter to folks here.

The rule is clear, if you have the income you can prove it. I believe that if you live in the US the money can be in the Bangkok Bank branch in NY and BB has a process for transferring it to Thailand.

Just yesterday I saw 2 destitute farangs walking past the Starbucks in Pattaya, both of these losers are going to end up costing Thailand.

You're off on a couple of points here...

1. the BB Branch in New York hosts no consumer accounts... It only serves as a transit point, for a fee, for people sending money from U.S. bank accounts to their Bangkok Bank branch account in Thailand.

2. Try having a bit of compassion for those less fortunate than yourself... You never know when you might find yourself in their shoes...

But more importantly, it's more than a bit of stretch to automatically assume that the two "destitute" people you saw were on retirement extensions of stay and had somehow evaded the Immigration income test...

The Dutch embassy requires proof of income. Without it you don't get the embassy letter.

Mario, re the Dutch consulate, TV member Middelman, in posts 602, 604 and 612 above, seems to be saying they've changed their policy on that...

They confirm only that you wrote the form. You have to proof to immigration the amount you filled in on the form.

Actually, Midelman said that the email he got from the Dutch embassy states that the embassy will no longer say in the letter that they confirm the income. They will only authenticate the signature of the person who wrote the affidavit. Midelman later clarified that he has not yet needed to get the embassy letter since this change was made.

Thanks for that Maestro... Somehow, I didn't catch the Middelman followup you mention above... I was waiting and waiting to see his response....and didn't find any.... That's obviously why he never provided any account of what happened on the issue of income verification during his subsequent Immigration visit...since he didn't end up using an income letter as yet.

800K on deposit is a pittance and doesnt bother me at all. However I dont spend anywhere near 65K per month and probably never will.

Everyone's financial situations are different, including the issue of renters vs. owners who may have paid cash and have no substantial mortgage payment here...

However, on the 800,000K issue, I certainly could do that, but have never done so... Even with the lousy interest rates in the U.S., I certainly can get a much better return on $22,000 in the U.S. than by plunking it into a Thai bank account where, in addition, it's safety and security is more than a bit questionable due to lousy consumer/fraud protection rules here.

I still spend the same amount of money, so that doesn't change my expenditures here... In fact, just the%2

Another confirmation that the OP in this thread is at least overstated and likely just flatly inaccurate....

Thai Immigration has always had the right to ask for and demand documentation of stated income, in cases where they decide to exercise that right.

But that's a whole different matter than the discredited notion of the OP that such verification is now the norm, or even more far-fetched, the notion that they're somehow demanding to see the income being brought into Thailand.

Could things change in the future.... yes, they certainly could. Is there any meaningful evidence that there's been a wholesale policy change at present... none.

I'd suggest it's pretty unlikely that one AEON ATM out of hundreds in Thailand is charging a 150 baht withdrawal fee, and all the others aren't. And that you're the only one who's encountered it at that location...

AEON ATMs don't charge any 150 baht ATM fee on foreign card withdrawals... The ongoing posts of dozens of TV members all around Thailand attest to that.

What's the problem here?

First off, there is no new "rule," contrary to the OP here...

Second, for whatever proof you want to bring to Immigration or that they ask you to provide, I'm sure printed out copies of your bank or other account statements will suffice for their purposes... I seriously doubt they're going to insist on originals, provided the copies you print out are of reasonable quality and clarity.

My experience with a couple air cons with a "dry" setting (which I assume would correspond to your "dehumidify") is that you cannot specify a target temp.

I read someplace that the dry/dehumidify setting measures the ambient temp when it starts at that setting and will cool to no more than 2 degrees (not sure if F or C) below that initial temp. The air con unit only operates at the slowest fan setting(s) to maximize the air contact with the cold coils to remove maximum humidity.

My unit has an "auto" setting (as opposed to cool or dry or quiet) that allows a 2 degree C adjustment up or down...

But for my "dry" setting, it seems to allow the thermostat control to be set at any temperature in the unit's range, same as the "cool" setting.

I've been trying the "dry" setting the past few nights set to 26 C, and it's been fine and comfortable. Though it's not been particularly warm outside of late.

However, still no idea whether the "dry" setting is a power saver vs. the "quiet" setting, assuming both are run at the same thermostat setting.

I've got an older style floor unit in the living room that gulps AC, so it's hard to get any clear picture of how much power the wall-mounted Fujitsu bedroom unit itself is using.

Pisico's post in the other thread is simply wrong, and has no basis in reality..

You got that information from whom???

That info doesn't match with any of my experience with AEON ATMs....

Including, I'd presume almost everyone here uses the English menu when accessing AEON ATMs, and none of us are paying a 150 baht withdrawal fee.

Look at my posting titled "Aeon Atm Central Pinklao" in this forum, and the reply from pisico.

Alan

Pisico, the info you have posted above is wrong...

AEON ATMs don't charge the 150 baht ATM withdrawal fee, whether one uses their Thai or English menu...

And, at least in using their English menu, you can withdraw up to 35,000 or 40,000 baht per transaction, provided your home country bank allows that large of a withdrawal.

Many many TV members here regularly use AEON ATMS throughout Thailand, almost all using their English menu I'd presume, and none of use are paying any withdrawal fees charged by AEON.

However, depending on what home country bank card a person is using, their home country bank may levy a fee for using a foreign/international ATM.

You got that information from whom???

That info doesn't match with any of my experience with AEON ATMs....

Including, I'd presume almost everyone here uses the English menu when accessing AEON ATMs, and none of us are paying a 150 baht withdrawal fee.

The Dutch embassy requires proof of income. Without it you don't get the embassy letter.

Mario, re the Dutch consulate, TV member Middelman, in posts 602, 604 and 612 above, seems to be saying they've changed their policy on that...

They confirm only that you wrote the form. You have to proof to immigration the amount you filled in on the form.

Glad to hear it... Thanks for the update....

Yes, so it seems there's a change in the format for the income letters being used at some of the consulates, apparently based on Middelman's report, at the request of Thai Immigration.

What's not clear to this point, however, is whether Thai Immigration is going to be doing anything different in the way they handle those income letters when submitted...

The one clear, recent report from an American posted above said "no change" and his letter was accepted without any further requests for documentation...

Further follow-up posts from TV members going for their retirement extensions now, using the monthly income method, would help flesh out the Thai Immigration end of things.

The chief issue, of course, isn't what form or language the consular income letters take...

But rather, what Thai Immigration does with them once they arrive on their doorstep.

At least up until now, there's been no indication that Thai Immigration has treated applicants any differently based on whether they came from an independently verifying consulate vs. the just sign the affidavit variety.

The document I was talking about is attached to reply 612

Thanks for that... I hadn't checked the link previously...

So, it is a letterhead letter from your consulate... And, interestingly, it reads remarkably similar -- though a bit more detailed -- than the American version of such letters....