jfchandler

I appreciate it... sometimes...

No doubt you must be the most popular guy in the Village...

Let's hope we don't someday end up reading your obituary here...

But speaking seriously... I'm not saying your approach is wrong... But I would say, I think the typical Thai family has a somewhat different sense of familial interaction than what you describe above...

Some months back, my wife's younger sister had a particularly nasty breakup with her longish-time Thai BF, who moved out of the apartment they were sharing, took most everything with him, and left the younger sister on the hook for a bunch of bills.

Without telling me in advance, back then, my wife gave her younger sister about 20K out of my wife's own separate funds account, wiping out a good portion of her personal, non-retirement savings. She told me shortly after she'd given her own funds to her sister, and never asked me to support the bailout.

Today, I learned the younger sister now, maybe 6 months later, had returned all the funds to my wife's older sister, who's going to use them for some needed project upcountry, before returning them to my wife in BKK in a few months...

I had figured, once my wife gave her money to her younger sister, that she'd seen the last of those funds... Now maybe, I'll be proven wrong... But, it hasn't happened quite yet.

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From what evidence I've seen, there are some Thai banks whose ATMs do TRY to use Dynamic Currency Conversion, which translates into, their own local and especially low exchange rate.

But from what I've seen, it's usually presented as an option on the ATM screen... not as a take it or leave it requirement... along with some explanation about having the opportunity to know exactly what your exchange rate will be... Unfortunately, the Thai bank ATM screen messages don't tell you that their DCC rate will be lower than if you say NO to any DCC offer.

As I recall, DCC originally surfaced particularly with Bank of Ayudhya ATMs, but only when MasterCard logo foreign cards were used (not VISA) and only for certain home country currencies, including U.S. $ and either Euros or Pounds (but not both, and I can't remember which... I think only for Euro-based accounts). At that time, I don't believe VISA was allowing DCC for ATM transactions.... but I'm not our resident expert on this... Jim Gant is...

The bottom line is... if anyone ever encounters a DCC offer when using a Thai bank ATM, just decline and go down the block and use a different Thai bank's ATM. You'll be saving your own money. Or better yet, find an AEON ATM and use that, so you won't have any DCC and won't have any 150 baht withdrawal fee either.

I think the prudent approach is to never OFFER or GIVE Immigration anything they don't ask for or routinely expect.... But to be prepared for things you think they might or could ask for, just in case.

Unfortunately, it was the prior false "news" report here on ThaiVisa some time back, later circulated in other media, that gave rise to a lot of the recent "urban myth" fretting about changes in rules and procedures. That's why I wanted to post here today re my experience in BKK, making it clear that at least in BKK, the rules have not changed.

However, based on TV member reports, some upcountry Immigration offices have been asking for some other things outside the routine of Bangkok. In some cases there have been multiple member posts from the same area/office about their different procedures, suggesting that they in fact have a somewhat different office practice there. In other cases, the member reports may be isolated and not replicated, making it hard to know whether that particular office was diverging or whether that particular individual had a bad experience or perhaps an officer who was having a bad day.

Thanks for pulling up the other details of that prior exchange... JJ...

Indeed, I think we know enough to clearly say that no Brit should have to feel that they have no other choice but to pay a 4+ pounds fee to their home country bank every time they need to make an ATM withdrawal abroad. There are no fee choices available out there in various flavors...notwithstanding the demise of Nationwide.

I too did mine pretty much a full month ahead of my deadline date, as soon as Immigration would allow it...just in case anything new or unexpected was to arise in the application process...

Fortunately, nothing did.

BTW, in that regard just fyi, applying early doesn't charge or shorten the new expiration date they give you... Even though I re-applied today, the new permission to stay date I received for 2012 was exactly 12 months ahead from my prior 2011 date in latter September.

I find mastercard have superb exchange rate right from an ATM which is why I have a FairFX card and ditched my nationwide card when they started charging, moneybookers is similar - can't fault either of them and AEON are still free - no 150 ATM robery

FWIW, we've done a lot of testing and research on this from the American side re the difference between using VISA and MasterCard logo debit cards for ATM withdrawals abroad...

And we've pretty conclusively established that when you go to withdraw funds from an ATM in Thailand, VISA/PLUS logo cards pretty much always yield a slightly better exchange rate that MasterCard/Cirrus cards... all other things being equal.

As we've explained before, when you use a foreign ATM card in a Thai bank ATM, the exchange rate normally is being set by the international card network (VISA or MC) and not by the local Thai bank or by your home country bank. The rates yielded are those set by the two major card networks, and for whatever reasons, MasterCard's rates are invariably lower than VISA's for international exchange.

Now remember, I also did say... all other things being equal... So for instance, someone might have a home country card where the home country bank adds on its own higher surcharges, and maybe that happens to be a VISA logo card. So in that case, the home country bank could be erasing the native advantage a VISA card would have. But if your home country bank isn't tacking on its own surcharges, VISA logo cards normally will yield a better rate vs. MasterCard.

I have a hard enough time keeping track of U.S. banking...which is my home turf, apart from the foreign goings on in the U.K.

But for my Brit brethren here, the U.K. bank I was thinking of that offers no foreign currency fee accounts is Metro Bank based in London and their current account.

http://uk.reuters.co...E76M3KG20110723

The last time I got into this in detail a couple months back with other Brits here, I seem to recall there also were still two other building societies that had no foreign currency fee accounts... But unlike Metro Bank, to open an account with them, you had to live or have your residence address within their particular service areas... which weren't country-wide.

As for Metro Bank, from their current account terms and conditions:

MasterCard®* / LINK Debit card allows access to ATMs and the purchase of goods and services wherever the MasterCard logo is shown. Withdrawals from Metro Bank ATMs are free. Some cash machine operators may apply a direct charge for withdrawals from their cash machines and this will be advised on screen at the time of withdrawal. If you make a debit card payment in a foreign currency, we will change the amount of the transaction to sterling on the date we pay it out of your account using the rate for the transaction which is set and provided to us by MasterCard.

https://www.metroban...t%20Account.pdf

And further from Metro Bank's website:

16.7 If you make a debit card payment in a foreign currency

from one of your accounts, we will change the amount

of the transaction to sterling on the date we pay it out of

your account using the rate for the transaction which is

set and provided to us by MasterCard. MasterCard’s rates

generally reflect either wholesale market rates or rates set by

government bodies which are collected by MasterCard as part

of its daily rate setting process. Please call us if you would like

to find out the rate set and provided to us by MasterCard for

any particular day.

There was a prior TV thread some months back that went into all these details and fleshed out the particular requirements and pros and cons of each of these no foreign currency fee UK banking options.

A few months ago, there was a supposed "news" post here that created a lot of furor and controversy talking about some supposed changes in Immigration's method for verifying and qualifying income for retirement extension purposes. In the end, after probably a couple hundred posts including those from recent applicants, that original report was pretty clearly proven false...

Today, a few months later, I had a chance to verify that for myself in person in Bangkok, getting a new retirement extension as an American using the Consulate income letter method of verifying at least 65,000 baht of monthly income. The documents requested by Immigration were exactly what they have asked for in the past, no more and no less. And they didn't warn or advise of anything headed for changes in the future or when I return (hopefully) next year.

Here's what they DID want today for the retirement extension:

--My original passport.

--Completed and signed TM7 Application for Extension of Temporary Stay.

--a single 4x6 cm color photo pasted on the back side, with my mobile phone number written at top of back page.

--U.S. Consulate Income Affidavit certifying at least 65,000 baht in monthly income/pension/bank interest, etc.

--Signed photocopies of my 1) passport face page, 2) most recent visa/extension and entry stamps and 3) TM6 Departure Card

--1,900 baht fee.

--plus me signing the single sheet they typically provide (and did provide) about understanding and acknowledging Immigration's rules.

Here's the things they DID NOT want or ask about (even though I had them with me just in case):

--second color photo

--map/directions to my house

--any Thai bank book or bank statements

--copies of my home lease or utility bills

--any backup documentation for my Consulate Income affidavit.

--any photos of me with my "family" or at my house.

--any evidence of me bringing any funds into Thailand or spending any funds in Thailand.

No promises those same exact procedures can be expected at some of the "wild-hair" Immigration offices upcountry. But at least in Bangkok, it's pretty clear, pretty much nothing has changed as relates to Immigration's handling of retirement extensions. Cheers for that.

Lopburi... you raise a good point, and now I have some uncertainty... so let me try to clarify...

--For mail-in 90 day reports in Bangkok, they do specifically ask for the photocopies of the passport face page, visa/extension stamp, latest arrival stamp and departure card. I presume that's because when you're mailing in your package, obviously you're not giving them access to your original passport book that contains those entries.

--The last time I did an in-person 90 day report at Chaeng Wattana about 6 months ago, they didn't want any of those photocopies... Just the application form and receipt of prior reporting.

--Today, when I did my in-person 90-day reporting at the mobile Immigration set-up at Bumrungrad Hospital, I signed two sets of those photocopies... one set clearly for my retirement extension. But now that I rethink it, the second set probably was for my re-entry permit... and NOT for my 90-day reporting...

So I stand corrected and should clarify...

At least in BKK, those photocopies are required as part of the mail-in 90-day reports... but not in my experience as part of the in-person 90-day reporting.

Re the mail in reporting requirements, see the enclosed screen shot from the BKK Immigration web site, taken earlier this week:

Sorry for the earlier confusion on my part... :jap:

Well, I guess I did OK today, kind of like hitting an Immigration grand slam.

By that, I mean, I was able--in one single visit at the 3rd Saturday of the month mobile Immigration operation at Bumrungrad Hospital--to get all three big things for the year accomplished:

1. renewed my annual retirement extension as an American using the consulate income letter method. 1,900 baht.

2. got my accompanying single-entry re-entry permit to keep the extension alive should I need to travel outside Thailand. 1,000 baht. And

3. was able to submit my 90-day reporting form, even though I was about 3 weeks ahead of its due date... instead of within the official timeframe for anytime 15 days before... No charge.

That said, however, it was hardly a smooth or easy experience, as I'll explain now that I've gotten the essentials covered.

First off, both my wife and I had called ahead earlier this week both to Immigration and to Bumrungrad to confirm Immigration's schedule and plan to be there today (Saturday) and their hours, which were supposed to be 9 am to noon. So my wife and I arrived just a bit after 9 am, only to be told by hospital staff that the Immigration officers were going to be late and not arrive until 10 am.... OK... such is life and timeliness in Thailand.

So right about 10 am, three uniformed Immigration officers come strolling in and begin to set up their desks on the 10th floor of the new hospital building at Bumrungrad, the one with the Au Bon Pain shop on the ground floor. After a few minutes, a junior Immigration officer or aide comes over and in English, asks what we want to do, And I replied, retirement extension, re-entry permit and 90 day report. And then to my surprise and consternation, in English, she proceeds to tell me and my wife that they cannot do retirement extensions at Bumrungrad and that they'll only do re-entry permits and short-term things like for tourist visas and 90-day reports.

Then what ensues is about a 5 minute back-and-forth calm exchange where, politely, both my wife and I explain to her that we'd called ahead to both Chaeng Wattana and Bumrungrad, and already been told that they COULD do retirement extensions here at the mobile immigration operation at Bumrungrad, and its sister operation on the second Saturdays in the Khao San Road area. So we state our case, and then the officer continues to insist in English and in Thai that she cannot, and says they don't have the senior officer or supervisor there who needs to sign off on such extensions. So that continues back and forth for a bit, and then finally the junior officer says she can at least do the 90 day report for us, but that we'll need to go to Chaeng Wattana for the retirement extension and re-entry permit (because I'd need the re-entry permit to reflect to new date on my new retirement extension, which supposedly they weren't going to do today.)

So as we're waiting there while the other officers fiddle with my 90 day report paperwork, out of nowhere comes a fourth Immigration officer who hadn't arrived with the other group, a woman who apparently was, and we later learned in fact was, the supervisor of the unit. And she went and talked to her officers a bit, and then came back and talked to me a bit in English, and mostly to my wife in Thai. And we explained the problem, and what we had been told, and what the junior officer had said about not being able to do retirement extensions. And at that point, the supervisor asked me in English, Did I live nearby? and How had I learned about the Saturday operation at Bumrungrad? I answered, she went and talked with her staff again, and then shortly returned back to us to say that YES, they would do my retirement extension and re-entry permit today at the hospital... and save us a trip out to Chaeng Wattana during the coming week.

So I thanked the supervisor politely for that, and she had her staff get about their work on my documents. But now I was really confused... Was the supervisor just doing us a courtesy because perhaps we had been misinformed by others and to avoid us having made the trip for nothing? Or was her junior officer wrong and yes they really could normally do retirement extensions at Bumrungrad? Later on, I got a chance to speak with the supervisor again, and got her answers to that and a couple other things.

As it turns out, the junior officer was wrong, and the supervisor said yes they normally should be able to do retirement extensions there at the mobile immigration days. No explanation of why her junior officer had given us the opposite answer earlier. And I didn't want to push the issue.

I also asked about their seemingly flexible hours, and she said officially 9 am to 3 pm... But she said anyone with a retirement extension should come between 9 am and noon, because she said they need to manually call out to Chaeng Wattana to check their computer system there for that kind of application, and apparently the staff or system that allows them to do that doesn't work past noon on Saturdays.

Lastly, in a piece of not-so-good news, my wife picked up something from the junior officer in Thai about a reference to December, but wasn't quite clear about it... So when I got my chance, I asked the supervisor, and she answered that the mobile Immigration operations, as present, are only slated to continue through this December, and they don't have any plans at present to continue them beyond that. The explanation was these past months have been some kind of special thing to honor the king or wish for his health to improve...

So, in the end, we were able to accomplish everything we set out to do... But it's a bit disconcerting to know that we also were within a couple of minutes of walking out and having to waste another day traveling out to Chaeng Wattana, had the Immigration supervisor not come along and set things straight...

FWIW, today I did my 90-day report in person in Bangkok...

No changes from the past normal procedure, and no request for providing anything about my lease or utility bills...

And no warning or advice to be prepared to do things differently next time.

Just the normal things:

--Completed and signed TM47 Notify of Staying Longer than 90 Days form.

--Original “Receipt of Notification” issued by Immigration from my prior 90 Day Report.

--Signed photocopies of my 1) passport face page, 2) most recent retirement extension and entry stamps and 3) TM6 Departure Card.

FWIW, I just did my retirement extension renewal in Bangkok today... American using consulate income letter...

Absolutely nothing different or out-of-the-ordinary... and no changes from the established procedural norm...

No second photo asked for. No map of the house asked for. No photos of house or family asked for. No Thai bank book or bank statements asked for. No lease or utility bills asked for.

(I did, however, have copies of all those other things listed above with me...just in case Immigration asked.)

No questions about how or where my funds come from or are used. And no warnings to be prepared to bring or have anything different next year.

Only:

--provided them my original passport.

--signed TM7 application form with 4x6 cm photo pasted on the reverse side.

--original U.S. consulate income letter certifying income exceeding 65,000 baht per month.

--signed copies of my passport face page, most recent retirement extension stamp, most recent arrival stamp, and future departure card.

--given and asked to sign one usual form from Immigration about understanding and acknowledging the rules.

--payment of 1,900 baht fee for 1 year extension of stay.

Thanks for that, good advice.

What is available at present on average for say THB500,000 with a major bank for a longish term.

I'm in Australia at present so probably hard to compare, but, with the way of the world finances at present, hard to imagine what is around the corner!

I agree about 3 to 4% being the best I've seen of late for any Thai time deposit accounts. Usually those have been advertised specials with some particular terms, whereas the regular routine time deposit rates have been a bit lower, depending on the deposit amount and length of the time deposit. But, all of the major Thai banks have on their web sites, in varying forms of English, rate sheets showing their time deposit terms and rates as well as rates for their other kinds of accounts.

In general, during this past year, interest rates on deposits in Thailand have been gradually rising as the Bank of Thailand has several times raised its benchmark rate. Whether that will continue, and if so how fast, I don't know, especially now with a new government installed and some uncertainty about their fiscal policies.

Do keep in mind, however, that as of next August 2012, the amount of government guarantee on Thai bank deposits is due to fall to a maximum of 1 million baht per account holder... Anything above that will not be insured against bank failure by the Thai government.

Correct.. There have been some member reports that some upcountry immigration offices have balked at accepting funds in Thai bank time deposit accounts for the 800,000 baht qualifying requirement.

However, the rules do seem to allow that... And it should be OK with most immigration offices including Bangkok. But for the reasons mentioned, it also would make sense for folks upcountry to run that by their local immigration officials, just in case. Or at least do a search of TV member posts on that subject.

A single withdrawal up to and including 150000 baht over the counter carries a one off charge of £4.50 making this method far cheaper.

Either method carries the usual visa per cent fees but the saving from not having to pay multiple £4.50 makes this the best way for me.

Despite the demise of Nationwide BS as a fee free option for UK folks, there still are a couple of different UK banks and building societies that offer accounts that have no foreign currency fees when using their debit cards abroad...

Most of the larger U.S. banks also have gone to a standard 3% foreign currency charge or higher... But that doesn't mean we have to patronize them or that there aren't much better options available.

I'm not a banker, but it sounds from member reports like there are two ways involved...

One, the tellers run your card thru some kind of machine at their counter, and it immediately pulls the funds from your account, presumably just like would be the case if you were using the card to make a purchase.

Second, they seem to use some kind of paper based processing system that usually takes a couple days before the debit is charged against your account... Not sure how availability of funds is verified in that case.

However, I'd doubt the Thai banks have the practice of dolling out funds without somehow knowing they're available in your account.

A couple things here...

1. There's no info in the OP article that says the guy lost 1 million in cash... Rather, the TOTAL of all the various jewelry and stuff he and the girlfriend lost was valued at 1 million. There's no mention in the article of how much cash was taken.

2. There's no indication from the article that the thieves got inside the house... Rather, it seems they just poked their way through the door and windows mosquito screens, but didn't get thru the security door or window bars.

So given that, even using a stick, how exactly would they reach the guy's bag that was "several meters" inside the door?

All things considered, and given the relatively short timeframes involved, it does begin to sound like one of those less than accidental things...

New bank fees for using debit cards for purchases coming to some large U.S. banks...

Large Banks Adding New Fees for Debit Card Usage

Aug 18, 2011 - 10:35 AM by Ken - Bank Deals Guy

Instead of rewarding customers for using debit cards, several large banks are starting to charge their customers. On Tuesday it was mentioned in the discussion forum about Wells Fargo's new fee of $3 per month when customers use their debit cards for purchases. This fee starts on October 14 in certain states. Other banks which are adding similar fees are mentioned in this Wall Street Journal article. These include Regions and SunTrust.

Banks are blaming the new debit card interchange fee regulation that takes effect in October. This will cap the fees to 21 cents with an extra 0.05% of transaction price to cover fraud prevention costs. The Fed raised the caps in their final rules that were released in June to ensure all costs were taken into account. Apparently, that wasn't good enough for the large banks.

(more)

A full version of the Wall Street Journal article referenced in the above excerpt is located here...

Here's the detail on that and my experience in doing so from last May...

I didn't quite realize the details of the 3 month seasoning period. I assume it is the 3 months immediately prior to the new visa extension dates. 800,000 baht is about 26,500 USD. 26,500 for 9 months at 3.5% in my short-term Municipal bond fund is about $ 695 USD. About 20,000 baht. Not even one month's living expenses. If I don't go the 60,000 baht a month method, I don't think it is worth the paperwork to move the 800,000 baht money in and out every year. I hate papwerwork.

Two things re your comment above...

1. The monthly income requirement for retirement extensions of stay is 65,000 baht per month... not 60,000 as you mention above.

2. If you were using the 800,000 baht in a Thai bank method instead, you wouldn't have to move the money in and out every year. You could place the funds in a Thai bank longer-term time deposit account earning 3 to 4 percent per year, and leave the funds there.

Immigration doesn't issue you a new/updated 90 day reporting due slip when you make an international trip inbetween time...

But you also should not throw away your prior reporting slip, even if the due date on it has become obsolete...

When you go to file your next 90 day report, with the new date 90 days from your latest entry into to Thailand, you should still include the prior reporting receipt.

That doesn't create any issues with Immigration, as presumably they work from your latest entry arrival date stamp on your passport.

The other thread on this identical topic is located here...

What the OP is asking about is commonly called a "counter withdrawal" in Thailand.

Many Thai bank branches will do these kinds of transactions, when the person provides their home country bank ATM card (usually with a VISA or MC logo) and their passport.

The advantage is counter withdrawals don't have a flat fee charge from the Thai bank, whereas Thai bank ATM withdrawals using a foreign card now carry the 150 baht flat withdrawal fee.

While counter withdrawals are a normal transaction and should work, there also are a couple of potential drawbacks with them:

1. While it is a normal transaction, some members here who have tried it report being told by their bank tellers to instead go out and use the nearby ATM. The tellers either don't want to be bothered handling the paperwork and/or they don't want to let you avoid the 150 baht ATM fee. If that should occur, a person should just try a different nearby bank branch.

2. The counter withdrawals usually will be handled using the bank's own buying TT exchange rate, which vary from bank to bank, whereas ATM withdrawals typically are handled using the somewhat better and standardized VISA or MC network exchange rates.

3. Some banks like Siam Commercial also have been reported to have very high counter withdrawal limits, but they then turn around and charge an especially low exchange rate on them (below buying TT) using a method called Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC).

4. When doing counter withdrawals, you have to be carrying around your passport and the small risk that you might lose it...which would create a major hassle.

BTW, if a person's home country bank charges any foreign currency transaction charge, either a flat fee and/or a percentage fee, those likely would apply the same whether using a foreign ATM or doing a foreign counter withdrawal.

New Requirements for 90-Day reporting

Source: Pattaya One newspaper 16 – 31 Aug 2011

Beginning on 1 August, the Immigration department has instructed their offices to require additional documentation to be submitted with the TM 47 - 90 day address report:

- Copy of passport Face Page

- Copy of latest Immigration Permission to Stay Stamp

- Copy of TM Departure Card (the white card that should be stapled in your passport)

- Copy of a document verifying your address (lease, utility bill, telephone bill, cable bill, etc.)

Depending on where you live, a person may have the option of mail-in 90 day reports or in-person ones... BKK folks have the option of mail-in reporting to Chaeng Wattana...

Based on my experience and on BKK Immigration's website, all of the items listed above -- except the last one -- have been part of the mail-in requirements all along.

In the past, BKK Immigration has never asked for lease or utility bill for mail-in reporting. But mail-in reporters have always had to include a self-addressed stamped envelope to receive their reporting receipt back, which must be used for their next reporting. So that in itself is a form of address verifying.

When I've done in-person 90-day reporting at Chaeng Wattana in the past, they didn't ask for copies of the passport face page, entry stamp or departure card. But then again, you're handing over your passport to them when you submit the 90-day reporting form. So I always figured they could see that info themselves, thus didn't need copies submitted as via mail.

I was looking at the BKK Immigration website just the other day, and there was nothing there about any new requirements... But of course, it's not usually very timely in its updates.

BTW, the list above doesn't include/mention the prior 90-day reporting receipt slip that also has to be submitted for a person's next report.