invalidusername

I won't address the other points you made, as they're merely opinion so we'll just have to agree to disagree. But I wanted to address this one:

And as for your information about the biggest dealer in town being falang, that is un-informed rhetoric and a cheap shot on your part. The person you are reffering to never has been a dealer, but just a chronic smoker who liked to share with friends. I can also say that he hasn't smoked in over a year and even had his home invaded last year by 20 police officers who did not remove their shoes when entering his home and left scratching their head that they couldn't find anything.

How would you know who I was referring to? I mentioned no name, not even a nationality.

To your first point, that is fine then we can both agree that both what you and I have written on this are opinions and nothing else needs to be said.

as for the dealer question.

I know for a fact that there is no 'biggest falang dealer' in pai and that if any falang deals, then it is not for long eough and large enough to gain that title. () Therefore the only possible person that you could have been reffering to in this statement is just an obvious scapegoat who is all too easy to accuse of things.

That is of course unless you are reffering to people that would sell somthing harder than smoke in which case I would bow to your epxertise on this subject as I would have no knowledge of such things.

I agree there are some farangs who may fear the police, but my impression it's those who are involved in illegal activities (I don't mean to imply you belong to this group, livesinpai), for the most part. No law-abiding farang resident I know in Pai is genuinely fearful. Perhaps it is different groups we know.

Aside from the farang residents involved in illegal activities (speifically drug possession or drug trade for the most part; the biggest dealer in town is farang), I suspect there is also a small - very small - coterie of farangs who have developed an irrational fear of the police following this incident and its heavy press coverage. They aren't stopping to think that the shooting could have occurred anywhere in Thailand, and that in fact incidents of this nature are not that uncommon in various parts of Thailand, as tragic as they may be.

/snip

Personally I don't know of a single person - whether Thai or farang - in Pai who shares the overall paranoiac view you're presenting. I'm sure they do exist, I'm just questioning their numerical significance. I'm sure in any tourist town in Thailand you'll find similar attitudes among a minority of people. But surely not a majority, in my experience, and I know a large number of folks in Pai.

My impression is that there are more of these kinds of events going on nowadays than at any previous time in Pai contemporary history. There were so many parties going on last weekend, when the Pai Reggae Festival was going on (and very successful it was, numbers-wise) that one couldn't attend one without missing another. Even the bars are staying open longer nowadays (Phu Pai, for example, till 1am, Ting Tong till 2am). In contrast with the regime of the previous police chief, who did crack down on parties and bars in general, the current chief seems to be more laissez faire than any chief in the last four years.

/snip

Care to be more specific about what you disagree with, and why?

Sabaijai

Thank you for your reply. I have sniped your previous post to point out the sections in which i disagree.

I am a 'fully law abiding citizen' and do nothing illegal including smoking which I havnt touched for over 3 years. My friends include those that smoke, and those that dont. Most these days don't.

Most of my friends don't even drink nor go out past 8pm as they have familes. We are not a small 'coetrie' of falang. We are the ever growing extended family that has been here since the beginning.

I even imgine the opnion of falang who live in pai and do in fact drink and go out is even more opionnated in this matter, but we will have to ask them.

Tourists who come to pai for a few days will generally have no idea on what is going on, however anybodywho has stayed here for any length of time will well know that the police are 'searching' They are regually looking for things wrong, people they can jump on. It is not the pleasent small town atmosphere. It is probably not either an 'opressive police state' either. However people must walk on egg-shells as the police are like bullies.

To refrence your statement regarding the 'old cheif' and his enforcement of dance etc....

In the old days yes, the police enforced some silly laws, closing times etc.... But there was not malice in their enforcement. They were doing something and maybe somebody got arrested. But it was quickly laughed off and finished and everybody was friends. I remember one of our brothers (u know who) getting busted 3-4 years ago for having the black stuff. He laughed, called his daddy, went to court, payed a small fine and then it was forgotten. Nothing like the current admin who threw a falang in Mae Hon Song Jail for 21 days for failing a pot piss test after they pulled him off his bicycle.

Just 2 years before I had friends who got busted holding at the waterfall. It was an afternoon in Pai jail with the police making fun of him that he got caught. then bail and a court date with a 2000 baht fine. Not the same

And what about the resturant bar owner and his friend being deported and thrown into the hole.

What about the police paddy wagon showing up at parties and pulling whoever they dont like the looks of.

The curent administration has malice and greed in their enforcement. They are like a hungry jackal who has been droped in the middle of no-where with no real criminals to arrest, so they start creating the criminals, themselves included.

And as for your information about the biggest dealer in town being falang, that is un-informed rhetoric and a cheap shot on your part. The person you are reffering to never has been a dealer, but just a chronic smoker who liked to share with friends. I can also say that he hasn't smoked in over a year and even had his home invaded last year by 20 police officers who did not remove their shoes when entering his home and left scratching their head that they couldn't find anything.

Anyways, my point is that it is not how you say. Life goes on you know. It may never be the way it was with the monthly Police-Falang football friendlies, however the problem is that the police are acting like the residents and tourists in pai are hardend crimnials.

I suspect the reasons for the change are two fold

1- The current cheif is used to dealing in areas where there are significant crime issues, both with Falang and thais. The problem is that aside from the normal village hijinx or a police officer shooting somebody or himself, there is not an excess of crime. This leaves the police cheif confused and feeling useless, so he has to go out and create some crime

2- There is a certian lobby of Thai-Bangkok (note that Thai and Thai-Bangkok are two different races of people) who have decided that they don't want falang or even the shabby thai tourist. They have funded the police (note the new paddy wagon and new station being built) to systmaticlly exterminate and terroize out of pai this element that they find dissagreeable. The polices actions are very concentrated and malice in their efforts. Instead of the normal 'hah hah - i caught you, pay a fine and have fun falang.' The police are working with agenda as they are being payed well by this group.

I agree there are some farangs who may fear the police, but my impression it's those who are involved in illegal activities (I don't mean to imply you belong to this group, livesinpai), for the most part. No law-abiding farang resident I know in Pai is genuinely fearful. Perhaps it is different groups we know.

Aside from the farang residents involved in illegal activities (speifically drug possession or drug trade for the most part; the biggest dealer in town is farang), I suspect there is also a small - very small - coterie of farangs who have developed an irrational fear of the police following this incident and its heavy press coverage. They aren't stopping to think that the shooting could have occurred anywhere in Thailand, and that in fact incidents of this nature are not that uncommon in various parts of Thailand, as tragic as they may be.

I've been a regular visitor to Pai for over 25 years (first overnight stay in 1981), and have lived their part time (half time in CM, half time in Pai) for the last seven years or so. Most of my Pai local contacts are Thai (or Shan or Yunnanese) rather than farang, and none of the Thai residents I know have told me they feared the police - at least not any more so than anywhere else.

Thais have a blanket term for police, army, and anyone in uniform, phoo mee see, literally 'people having colour' (referring to the colour of their uniforms), whom most Thais will kreng jai (show deferential respect for, bordering on fear), rightly or wrongly, and this applies to Pai police as well. Although I'd say slightly less than in a larger town simply because most Thai residents know each policeman by name and they generally get along well.

Personally I don't know of a single person - whether Thai or farang - in Pai who shares the overall paranoiac view you're presenting. I'm sure they do exist, I'm just questioning their numerical significance. I'm sure in any tourist town in Thailand you'll find similar attitudes among a minority of people. But surely not a majority, in my experience, and I know a large number of folks in Pai.

One view in particular that strikes me as questionable is your statement:

Many types of very enjoyable parties and art and music events that used to occur regularly (including both fliered/announced events, private events, and word-of-mouth public events) no longer occur at all.

My impression is that there are more of these kinds of events going on nowadays than at any previous time in Pai contemporary history. There were so many parties going on last weekend, when the Pai Reggae Festival was going on (and very successful it was, numbers-wise) that one couldn't attend one without missing another. Even the bars are staying open longer nowadays (Phu Pai, for example, till 1am, Ting Tong till 2am). In contrast with the regime of the previous police chief, who did crack down on parties and bars in general, the current chief seems to be more laissez faire than any chief in the last four years. I'm not bigging up the chief entirely, as to me he deserves part of the blame in the tragedy, as clearly Uthai had a drinking problem and should have been released from duty or sent to rehab at the very least. But Pai has seen much worse in the relatively recent past.

That said there are a considerable number of Pai residents, both foreign and Thai, who would like to see fewer parties and fewer bars, in Pai. Not to mention less tourism. I suppose if you own a tourism-dependent business in Pai, you won't like the current publicity regarding the town.

Just to answer Claymore's insinuations, I own no property and no businesses there, and have only personal and social interests in Pai, same as I do for Chiang Mai (and, for that matter, the remainder of Thailand).

Even though we disagree, it's good to hear from at least one other person that actually knows Pai.

sabaijai - normally you post quite sensibilty, but in this post you either are taking ques from this guy:

http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ThaiTalk/2008/02/09/entry-2

and have gone native in the worst way

or really need to visit pai more often to update yourself on the facts of the situation.

I hope that it is the latter.

I arrived in Pai almost 6 years ago. And up until the point that this latest police cheif took control, Pai was a place of freedom. forget about that hippie crap, but what I am talking about it was a place where if you repsected other people and stayed out of their business, then they also stayed out of yours. It was a place where you felt like you beleonged and owned the little town. You know exactly what I am talking about

There used to even be games of football between the police and falang. Speaking of police, up until this recent change, the police in pai were a non-player - we barely even knew they exsisted. And they did a good job, there were no falang murders and such

since this latest police cheif came into operation, there is an attitude of fear. The police are looking for something wrong - something to justify their position or make money.

They pull falang off the street and throw them into Mae Hon Song jail for failing a piss test.

Another falang we know was deported and thrown for 1 week into the Hole at the Bangkok Hilton before being sent filithy on a flight 'back to his country'

this for not having the correct work permit, but moreso for pissing off the cop who owned the bar across the street.

There were no problems before the police created them.

The issue is that this group of police is used to dealing with drunk expats in Pattaya and in Pai we dont get that sort, so they are falling over themselves to create business for themselves because I think the current police cheif paid alot for his transfer and has a debt to pay.

I am not intrested in tourisim drying up. I am intrested in the evil forces vacating our town. I hope you support us.

There is a score of reports in the Nation regarding this incident. They even say new PM Samak will get involved. Build his image to fight police corruption. I bet this will get bundled up with the border kidnap cases and justice delivered to all

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/02/08...al_30064751.php

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/02/09...al_30064884.php

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/02/08...al_30064725.php

I am curious if they are reporting on the latest developments in the Thai Language press, and what is their side of the story.

Incidently, I can subjectively report that over the last few weeks, some of the good police officers in pai (the ones who have been here long time before the BKK invasion) have a nice grin on their face as if they are secretly please with the shakeup that is about to happen (ie..their boss gets transfered and the falang-killer actaully gets jailed)

somebody might have better info on this than me, but the word is that

Yesterday a private airplane landed poorly at the pai airport in a crosswind and ended upsidedown

It is thought that there were no causalties, but not confirmed

An SGA flight was about to take off before the crash and was delayed 30 minutes and then left.

From the Pai thailand Wikipedia page:

Controversy over Police Conduct

Although it is a sleepy town in the mountains, Pai has over the past decade generated an unusual amount of controversy (even for Thailand) concerning the conduct of its local police, as well as the conduct of Thai drug enforcement police operating there. This is partially due to the proximity of Pai to drug routes from the Shan State in Burma, however given the post-2000 rise in incidents involving foreign tourists, it is evident that other factors are also at work. Some examples of this clear long-term trend in Pai include:

• On December 24th, 2001, the local Pai police arrested and jailed the owner of Bebop bar, with the rather dubious explanation that he was "letting people dance in a place of business not officially licensed as a ‘disco.’"^[7] After this event, both Bebob and Mountain Blue received additional discriminatory treatment in the form of illegal, or uneven, application of Thailand's closing-time laws. The so-called "dancing ban" by the Thai Police became a famous and well-known joke which business owners are still talking about in 2008.
  

• Also in 2001, and again in 2003, Pai district officials and police began enforcing several illegal measures ostensibly aimed at increasing "safety" for the local tourists, specifically "a ‘recommendation’ via illegal denial of permits whereby all guesthouses must have walls made from a solid material, such as wood, gypsum, compressed fibre or cement"^[8] rather than the cheaper and more traditional bamboo favored by many guesthouse owners and low-budget backpackers. Most locals suspected other motives were involved, including both a desire to "weed out" low-budget tourists and to encourage higher-priced construction that would generate higher construction kickbacks. Several locals pointed out uneven enforcement of these laws for different businesses, depending on personal relationships with the police or district officials.
  

• The so-called "War on Drugs" launched in February 2003 by former (now deposed) Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, in which "more than 2,000 people in Thailand were killed as the government effectively declared 'open season' on those accused of involvement in the drug trade,"^[9], took a heavy toll on Pai district and downtown Pai in particular. Many locals whose family members were murdered without investigation now take an extremely skeptical view towards any police action here.^[10]
  

• In 2006, the Pai Police purchased a new mobile drug testing vehicle, and there have been numerous reported instances of the police entering bars and other establishments and randomly urine-testing foreign tourists. In many of these cases it is apparent that the searches were not performed legally. In Thailand, "when requesting urinalysis for drug identification purposes, at least one member of the Narcotics Suppression Police must be present. Regular Thai police do not have this right, nor do the Tourist Police. Second of all, there must be probable cause."^[11]. In most cases, apprehended suspects are detained in Mae Hong Son jail for a few days, then released with a "fine" typically on the order of 5,000-10,000 baht.^[12]
  

• On January 5th 2008, Pai made national and international news when an off-duty police officer, Sgt-Major Uthai Dechawiwat, fatally shot Canadian tourist John Leo Del Pinto, and shot and wounded a second Canadian tourist Carly Reisig, fleeing the scene immediately after the event.^[13][14] Nearly all involved believe that both the policeman and suspects were drunk at the time. Official police reports differ widely from eye-witness reports and it is expected that the officer will be acquitted by the Thai Justice system. In an extremely unusual development which highlights the deep integrity issues that exist with the Pai police, reporter Andrew Drummond published an editorial in The Nation where he expressed his regrets for publishing views from all sides of the story in his earlier Nation article because:
  "While the facts presented were true, they have been wrongly taken in a malicious way by many...What the journalist cannot convey sometimes is his opinion of whether the witnesses are telling the truth or show immediately what links these witnesses have to the police....I am very concerned at several aspects of this case:
  1. The police claiming that Reisig was pregnant and this had angered a jealous foreign boyfriend.
     
     
  2. The claims by the police shooter that he had been out of town before the shooting, when other witnesses were saying the officer was drinking heavily that night in Pai.
     
     
  3. The threats to prosecute Reisig for assault on police.
     
     
  4. The automatic bail for the police gunman.
     
     
  5. The fact that local police are investigating themselves.
     
     
  6. The claims that the gun had discharged three times accidentally."
     ^[15]
     
     

I spoke to an eyewitness who saw the cop run off shouting 'I'LL KILL YOU'

he then came back with his gun and killed the man.

I am sure there was a struggle, but that is after the cop returned with the intent to KILL.

the cop who did this was a bit off and if i remember correctly was the same cop that after arresting a falang for smoking ganja took the ganja and rolled it and smoked it in front of the falang - blowing the smoke in his face.

that incident happened at the pai jail earlier this year.

Since the new police chief came to Pai a year ago in Novemeber 2006 - the police force has been rife with corruption and undisplined acts. Instead of trying to uphold the law, they have been excerting their power to try to make money off of all the tourists.

furthermore the police force has regualrly been going to the bars and shining flashlights in peoples eyes and removing them for drug tests and then bribes.

All the bars except Phu Pai which is owned by a former police officer and wealthy property developer.

its sad - if they keep this up they will destory pai.

from my information the girl in question had been living in pai for over a year and had a baby with a local rasta boy. you could have seem her pushing the baby around town in a stroller.

i dont think anybody really cares that the falang got killed.

the last time we heard about a bloody shooting of an innocent in pai it was a policeman as well

about two years ago a police officer gunned down his girlfriend/wife at her parents house and then shot himself thorugh the head on the street.

it seems the only dangerous people out there are the police.

and this killer - %100 free of all charges. Falang couple beat him up and struggled for the gun....haha.

What probably happened is the falangs were arguing and they looked up to see a drunk thai man pointing a gun at them. Not being in uniform, and probably not identifying himself as a police officer, they probably thought some crazy was trying to kill them and tried to defend themselves.

I can see the new declaration amoung the police force now

'you cannot drink and carry your gun at the same time'

so then the cops will be unarmed.

he probably wont be seen in pai again, but will suffer no consequences.

LAst night there was an incident in Pai. Not sure if this is being 'allowed' to the mainstream press or not but I will tell you the FACTS and the RUMORS

FACTS:

Last night Janurary 5th a little after Midnight a forgien tourist was shot through the mouth and died instanly by a Thai man with whoum he was earlier arguing. Witnesses earlier saw the Thai man and the Tourist arguring on the street and the Thai man drove off shouting in english 'I'LL KILL YOU'

shortly after the Tourist was eating at a resuturant and the Thai man came in and stuck a gun down the forgienners throat and shot him dead. It is also thought the forgineers girlfriend and possibly another was injured.

As for RUMORS there are two corrurent rurmors circulating:

THE OFFICAL REPORT:

There were two falang fighting and the police came to break up the fight and the falang attacked the police and the police had to shoot them in self defence.

THE STREET REPORT (From the Local Thais)

The man who shot the tourist was an Off Duty Pai Police officer who was drinking.

Both seem to concur that a Police officer shot a forgineer so we will go with that.

Also the local Thais are saying that the Police Force arrested the officer as well - but that is still in Rumor phase.