12DrinkMore

14 minutes ago, robblok said:

That is a good reason not to do it.. respect. 

 

Guess some people from a certain non class structured country have never heard about this. 

Nah, some people have class and some people are just bogans.

1 minute ago, wonder6281 said:

I was out for dinner last night at an open air moo Gata restaurant. 

 

3 Asian men came in (Korean) sat down to eat and 2 of them had removed their shirts. 

 

They even went back to buffet topless. 

 

Nothing was said to them. 

 

????

Thai society is essentially non-confrontational.

Nothing may have been said, but thoughts and opinions will have been formed.

Foreigners get a lot of leeway because they are seen as either temporarily here or not part of the Thai society and culture.

15 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Even more so if you have a decent set of man boobs, beer belly.

And wearing a tight and undersized Speedo is almost obligatory nowadays. 

"Initial Coin Offerings" 

When a company wants to raise cash it has a few methods, normally it

- takes out a loan

- sells bonds

- sells shares

In all of these three, the provider of the cash has a defined return (loans and bonds) or a defined stake in the future of the company (shares).

There are thousands of wannabees with good, bad or mediocre ideas for blockchain applications. They like to raise capital through ICO's and subsequently dribbling more "coins" into the market. So what are you getting when you buy into this?

- is it a loan? No, there is no obligation on the company to give you interest or return the money.

- is it a bond? No, there is no obligation on the company to give you interest or return the money.

- is it a share. No, you have no stake in the company.

Effectively you have simply donated your money to the company for no return whatsoever.

The hope is presumably that the coins will do a parabolic "bitcoin" and they will all become rich.

Well, they won't.

Thailand introduced PromptPay twelve months or so ago.

Has anybody used it? Good or bad experience?

In China USD 9 trillion was spent by consumers using mobile phone payments. The USA is at USD 112 billion in comparison.

https://www.marketwatch.com/video/chinas-great-leap-to-wallet-free-living-moving-upstream/09D91AAD-5839-49C0-BFBD-E369F25C55FB.html

(It is worth going just to check out Naomi, I must admit I watched a couple of times. The male presenter's voice is a bit irritating though)

15 minutes ago, mjnaus said:

If Bitcoin is going to actually live up to it's purpose and potential

Hold on.

I seem to remember more than a post or two stating that bitcoin is already outdated and cannot solve its inherent difficulties.

This why the craptos are advancing to the next generations?

Here we go, a few interesting claims by crapto-fans and the reality.

1. ZIRP. No interest policies by central banks are going to destroy the fiat currencies, cause rampant inflation and generally eliminate the human population (or something like that). 

How much interest do the craptos offer?

2. QE. Quantitative Easing, or supplying a large amount of liquidity out of thin air by the central bank. Will destroy the fiat currencies.

Isn't that exactly the same when new alt-craptos come into existence?

But it goes further.

https://news.bitcoin.com/tether-printing-press-in-high-gear-issuing-400-million-in-four-days/

Quote

The amount of new bitcoins created each day is worth approximately $18 million. Miners need to sell most of these coins to cover their utility costs. This means that $18 million of new money needs to enter the markets daily just to maintain current prices. Given that $400 million of tethers has been issued over the past four days.

Tether is a crapto that is supposedly linked to the USD.

Quote

 In the short-term, the issuance of tethers serves as a form of quantitative easing that keeps the markets ticking over, even amidst negative news and regulatory uncertainty. As one commenter pointed out, “Tethers aren’t really ‘backed’ by USD fiat, but rather by confidence in Bitfinex itself.

3. Trust in third parties. Fiat requires trust in third parties, craptos will solve this.

Quote

No one, at this stage, realistically believes that Tether is receiving $100 million a day in customer deposits via its diminutive Polish bank and then converting these into USDT. That just ain’t happening.

USDT is the acronym for tether.

So all those tethers are not really backed by what they would like to claim.

Hope those miners are managing to sell USD 18 million of bitcoins today. Otherwise they might find their electricity cut off.

2 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

 

There is no way that governments are going to relinquish the monopoly of money.

 

Hmm, actually they have and given it to the bankers......

2 minutes ago, mjnaus said:

The current problems are of technical nature and therefor, can be solved.

Not only are there technical problems, you are neglecting to mention the legal and regulatory environment that the world requires to function.

Sure the technical problems can be solved with enough effort.

But that doesn't even begin to address the human decisions that would still have to be made, involving many interested parties, emotions and big money.

You could build the fastest, sleekest, most fuel efficient aircraft ever, but without FAA approval it would never get off the ground.

11 minutes ago, lkn said:

For my first question, you are unable to articulate what problem is being solved by bitcoin, and yet you advice me to stop contributing to this thread?

 

For my second question, just throwing out “demand justifies the price” seems a bit ignorant to me.

 

What is causing this demand? Underlying value being created? Nope, and that is cause for concern!

 

“The amount of new bitcoins created each day is worth approximately $18 million. Miners need to sell most of these coins to cover their utility costs. This means that $18 million of new money needs to enter the markets daily just to maintain current prices. Given that $400 million of tethers has been issued over the past four days, and yet the price of BTC has remained sluggish, this is alarming. If it wasn’t for tether’s torrent of newly created cash, this week’s dip would have cut deeper still.”

 

— https://news.bitcoin.com/tether-printing-press-in-high-gear-issuing-400-million-in-four-days/

 

Another quote from that article.

Quote

In the short-term, the issuance of tethers serves as a form of quantitative easing that keeps the markets ticking over, even amidst negative news and regulatory uncertainty. As one commenter pointed out, “Tethers aren’t really ‘backed’ by USD fiat, but rather by confidence in Bitfinex itself.

And I thought that this was EXACTLY one of the issues that craptos were meant to fix????

QE for craptos. 

And the "no requirement to trust third parties" issue???? 

26 minutes ago, mjnaus said:

IMO, everything that challenges the status quo is a good thing.

And presumably anybody who challenges the assumptions of the crapto-fans is "pi55ing on them" and a bad thing?

19 minutes ago, mjnaus said:

Hence, the name "exchange" :) Hardly interesting though, you're just pointing out the obvious 

It is not obvious to a lot of people, who think there is "free" money to be had.

3 minutes ago, mjnaus said:

Every single time someone buys or sells any crypto currency using fiat currency, said crypto currency is interacting with the "real world". They have these things called "exchanges", designed solely for the purpose of having crypto currencies interact with the "real world".

That is being disingenuous.

I was referring to the real world applications of the technology. There are a few trials going on, but nothing widespread. As many crapto-fans like to point out, bitcoin is too old to be useful, so now the development is on the next generations. 

It is interesting to note that the exchanges are not increasing the amount of "fiat" money, affecting its purchasing power or increasing the total wealth in the economy. They are essentially just moving fiat from one person to another person, concentrating it in the pockets of a few lucky ones.

7 minutes ago, lkn said:

I don't clam to fully understand the entire crypto currency space. But I think it's exciting to something this big happening.... Can we not just let it be, enjoy the ride and see where it all ends?

If it is that big, then you surely owe it to yourself to find out a bit more?

Or maybe you just like been taken for a ride???? 

5 minutes ago, lkn said:

You say some of the brightest minds are working on this; they might understand computer science, but the talks I have seen from cryptocurrency conferences are from people who seem to know very little about the financial system, the role of banks, legal contracts/disputes, or why consumers gravitate toward a product or service.

That is a very valid point. At some point, if the crypto stuff is to become useful, it has to meet the real world.

At the moment it is somewhere out in fantasy land.

7 hours ago, retoohs said:

The banks are supported by paper gold and if everyone that has bought paper gold went to cash in at the same time the banks would collapse because they don't have the money to back up the paper gold they have sold. Fiat currency is running on borrowed time. The other thing is the monetary system we are using is not designed for the digital age and will show more shortcomings in the near future

I do not understand the idea of "buying paper gold".

Everything in the payments system is an IOU. It is all based on swapping of these IOU's.  Banks do not sell money, they issue and exchange IOU's.

It is fundamental to the banking system that almost all of the customer deposits are supported and backed up by the loans that the banks have made. These loans are mortgages, personal loans, loans to companies involving millions and millions of people across the economy working away to pay them.  You deposit account is backed by these loans, by the legal liability of the borrowers to repay them, not by physical cash held in a vault. The interest you receive comes from all the work that is being done by these borrowers. That is a pretty solid backing.

If you understand that, then it is not hard to see why banks are simply not able to redeem all the deposits in cash. They would have to start liquidating the loans. Before that happened the government/central bank would step in and provide sufficient liquidity or deposit guarantees to prevent the bank collapsing.

So, your 1,000 Baht in a deposit account at Bangkok Bank has the backing of the loans the bank has made, is supported by the legal infrastructure of Thailand to enforce payment of those debts, the deposit guarantee scheme and the Bank of Thailand, which is able to supply an infinite amount of liquidity to stem a banking run.

I would not worry too much about your 1,000 Baht.

What is backing a bitcoin? Who has the liability to pay anything for it? Who can you call on to give you anything for it? 

Quote

Fiat currency is running on borrowed time.

No it isn't. It is running on IOU's.

Quote

The other thing is the monetary system we are using is not designed for the digital age and will show more shortcomings in the near future

Well, I have to agree it wasn't designed for the digital age, as it has evolved over a couple of thousand years. But I think it works extremely well on didigtal platforms, which have enhanced its utility immensely.

I can transfer funds instantly from an ATM, eBanking or my mobile phone to anywhere in Thailand instantly for a couple of Baht or even free. Even with all the hype there is no crapto that comes anywhere near the reliability, speed, convenience and cost of that.

10 hours ago, taiping said:

PLEASE 12DrinkMore, if you find cryptos "incomprehensible" then just don't get involved with it. Simple as that. Since you don't understand, then what's the point of posting your thoughts on TV? In order to support your ego? Why?

Well, I was hoping that knowledgeable people like you would come along and lift up the general level of understanding with a decent conversation and discussion.

You see, I am prepared to accept that my understanding and perceptions are wrong, lacking in depth or just plain stupid. And I will thank people for pointing that out, provided a valid counter argument has been given. I have found that clever, intelligent and thoughtful people are always prepared to assist someone genuinely interested in learning.

Those who constantly use ad hominem attacks never fit into that class, for whatever reason.

In every thread I have started I have strived to keep the discussion going and attract others interested in bouncing ideas around. It is the way we humans advance.

But thanks anyway for passing by.

20 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

The tremor in 2008 was the result of too much debt...since then the load has increased by 40%!

There was too much lending by the banks to a relatively small number of subprime borrowers. If the loans had stayed with the small issuing banks there would not have been such a huge crisis. However, the loans were packaged up into blocks, rated incorrectly by the rating agencies and flogged off to unsuspecting companies as high quality in the States and Europe.

These companies, operating in the shadow banking sector, used these assets to raise liquidity. Once the cat was out of the bag, the shadow banking sector  completely lost trust in the assets they were mutually accepting as collateral and so liquidity dried up entirely. That was the catalyst for the next phase, where companies could not get loans to finance operations, stocks were being sold to raise capital and so on.

It was not too much debt in absolute terms. It was too much incorrectly rated debt in the system causing a lack of trust and confidence.

8 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

How many paper currencies do you know that have lasted more than 100 years?

Not really important. Currencies should not be considered a longterm store of value. You have to invest in real income producing assets or physical assets such as property.

10 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Do you really think that central banks are going to be able to keep printing money with both hands while keeping interest rates close to zero for another 100 years?

Probably not. ZIRP and QE have only been going on for a decade, the US is tightening and other countries will slowly follow. But which adverse effects have you personally experienced due to QE and ZIRP?

Investors in the stock markets have done very well, property owners have done well, inflation has been benign, there is a major problem with wage stagnation, but that is more due to globalisation and the incredibly efficient manufacturing and distribution networks that now exist. And we have Lazada.

13 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Since 2008, we have entered the final stage of this economic cycle based on unlimited debt and unlimited money creation...like a party gone out of control...its looks wonderful while it lasts...then comes the hangover...

Messrs Schiff and Kaiser have been having a bad influence on you. Try to wean yourself off them. They are a bad influence.

On the contrary, the indications are that the world's economy is relatively healthy.

As always there are locations that are doing better like Asia, slowly improving like the US of A, floundering around like Europe, and going down the tubes like the UK.

29 minutes ago, Sirbergan said:

3-5 days for an international transfer (SWIFT) is the past, you have to be crazy to think that will still happen in the future. So if Ripple doesn't succeed, they will have pushed SWIFT to speed up their transfers tremendously – but I find them partnering with SWIFT more likely than Ripple failing. Let's see.

Ease up on the snide remarks.

Last international transfer I made was four weeks ago. Less than three minutes between hitting "accept" in an Australian bank account and getting an SMS from my recipient bank saying the funds had arrived, been exchanged and available. Six months I transferred from the Bangkok bank. From going to the bank to receiving the funds took about five hours. Probably only because I am not allowed to initiate international transfers through online banking in Thailand, and have to fill in blasted paper which gets sent to Bangkok by fax.

But I don't think we are disagreeing.

My position is clear. The 3,000 odd craptos are 99.99% lacking in substance and most will disappear. A few companies will make huge profits if they can manage to license a product into widespread use. But it is impossible to know which horse to back, and even then, none that I know of have any stock market presence so it is impossible to buy shares anyway.

There are also significant challenges of monetising

- by  patenting a product which is based on OpenSource code.

- it is possible for relatively small development teams to use the OpenSource code and github to develop these platforms, and it is getting easier daily. I can imagine that the banks and large companies will move towards taking this inhouse and develop systems internally.

It appears that a lot of enthusiasts are prepared to contribute to the technology development for free, and certainly all those testing guinea pigs, namely the crapto traders, are testing the concepts and platforms for free.

Ultimately I do not know how much money will be made and by whom, your guess is probably better than mine......

57 minutes ago, Sirbergan said:

A dollar is worth around 32 baht because our governments says so, without any of us having a say in the matter. They print the shit out of it, and none of us has a say in the matter – we're supposed to sit back and accept this system that everyone knows is completely corrupt and flawed.

It is worth 32 Baht because the markets have determined that price, based on trade, economic outlook, interest rates, forecasted demand for the currency and a bit of gambling. Governments do not have the power to dictate a price in a modern economy that trades internationally, even if they would like to.

97% of the "currency" in circulation is issued by the private commercial banks in the form of loans. If people did not want to borrow, the banks could not issue loans. The banks can, at times, issue too much or too little, leading us around into and out of recessions. Essentially the number of borrowers determines how much currency is issued.

The current system is certainly not completely corrupt. It is not perfect, but there is not really a viable alternative. And generally it works.

24 minutes ago, kekalot said:

Krungsri is using Ripple and another one already too

The bank is making use of the Interledger protocol, which was invented at Ripple.

They are not using the crapto ripple.

11 minutes ago, taiping said:

The whole system is trustless

As in it can't be trusted 

And you have to have a big measure of trust in governments to not clamp down further.

3 minutes ago, Sirbergan said:

 

Aurora raised 6 millions in their ICO (which was their target), which makes your statement ridiculous at best. Then you go on saying these coins have no customers, ridiculing yourself further (what are the people buying into the ICO, if not customers/stakeholders?). Stop spreading FUD or do some more research before you do.

The coins certainly have punters. I am not disputing that, never have.

But what have they actually bought?

The money has gone into the development of the platform and their software, so the engineers and management team have made some nice salaries. The company also intends to trickle out more coins as more funding is required.

The punters who buy into it have absolutely no rights whatsoever. They are not bond holders nor are they shareholders nor will they ever receive any return from the company if it does become a success. The company could develop an incredible application, license it to the finance industry making the shareholders billions. The boreal holders would not see a single satoshi of that. Coinholders are not stakeholders.

Effectively the punters have simply given the company a free donation for development, which may or may not lead somewhere.

It is based entirely in the hope that in the future they will be able to sell a boreal (?) for more than they paid. I cannot see any reason to have that hope or belief.

21 minutes ago, Golden Triangle said:

I have followed every thread on cryptos on this forum, I have also done some independent research vis Google, and quite frankly I too am mystified by the whole thing, I have stated quite openly that I am willing to flutter a 1000 quid on one or two of the currencies, can I get help - ie someone sitting next to me taking me through the whole process from start to finish ? Can I Hell. thanks for nothing guys and gals.   

Have a click around this website.

https://bx.in.th/info/faq/

There's enough to start you on the journey......