Lifelover

I get a kick out of being in the warm sunshine on Christmas Day and thinking about my relatives and friends back in cold, dank Old Blighty. But paradoxically, I do also miss the snow.

I’ll be taking the missus and Mother-in-Law for a Christmas lunch feast at a BKK hotel and after that heading off to The Beach and a well known bar that specialises in fake snow…See, I get everything I desire…well once a year anyway.

I’m with you there parryhandy. They are easy to find because they are there and unfortunately here in Thailand, often soliciting too. But what is being done to help them?

Way back on page 2 I said "I think that some of you posting hatred messages on this topic need to look into your own psyche very carefully. What is it that induces you to hate this young man". KevinN, you've just answered that question very well.

I sympathise with you and your sister and half-brother having been molested by a step-Grandad at the age of five. That is the most miserable of experiences and it is no surprise at all that you were all affected by it adversely.

Your dealings with shrinks seem to have been much later in life for other reasons, including alcohol abuse, but these may well be connected. You don’t need to expose yourself further in this forum, but I’d just like to make a few general observations.

I’m not a shrink by the way. You are referring to analysts or possibly psychiatrists. Since people are not always sure about the differences between these specialities, I’ll begin with a definition. A psychiatrist is a physician who specialises in the treatment of all kinds of mental illnesses; an analyst is a therapist who concentrates on the treatment of one group of mental disorders – the neuroses – through a long and careful examination of largely unconscious processes; while a psychologist is a pure scientist who studies all states of the mind and all forms of behaviour, whether normal or abnormal, human or animal. My own academic training is in child psychology.

I agree that nobody completely understands the mind, but some do so very much better than others and after 150 years as an independent discipline, psychology has come a long way to explaining a great deal about our behaviour and the state of our mind.

Freud was the first to find that real or imagined sexual trauma at a very early age was often the cause of illness later in life. Usually the patient represses the memory into the unconscious in order to defend his or herself. Using a technique called free association, Freud and Freudian analysts found they could unlock the unconscious, thereby enabling the patient to discharge the emotion involved. This procedure became known as psychoanalysis.

Not surprisingly patients suffer inhibitions during this therapy and resist it. The analyst’s role is to interpret this resistance and to help the patient to overcome and understand it. KevinN you probably put up quite a fight.

Children of a very early age, at five, are fully bonded to their parents (or surrogate parents). When the child (or more correctly the child’s superego) gleans information about intentions which it judges incompatible with parental values, the superego intervenes to induce anxiety or guilt and, not infrequently, it firmly cuts the wires making further consideration of the subject impossible.

The sad truth is that just as children suffering from vitamin D deficiency grow up with bowed and distorted limbs, so children deprived of a parent’s love (or who are abused) are prone to develop rickets of the soul. Early experiences are crucial for healthy development.

Consider the case of your half-brother with the following in mind. In 1946 Carl Jung discovered that it is the predisposition to have a certain experience which is inherited, not the experience itself. Thus archetypes predispose us to approach life and to experience it in certain ways, according to patterns already laid down in the psyche. “Behind a man’s actions”, he wrote, “there stands neither public opinion nor the moral code, but the personality of which he is still unconscious”.

KevinN, as very young children we expect our parents to be gods and it comes to all of us as a painful disappointment when we discover them to be fallible, like everyone else. As Oscar Wilde put it: “Children begin by loving their parents; as they grow older they judge them; sometimes they forgive them”.

Now back to our Child Molester in the Bangkok Hilton. Paedophiles are not an homogeneous group of people with similar personalities, aims and desires. Strictly speaking a paedophile is someone who is attracted sexually to pre-pubescent children, that is, usually under the age of 11. The most common age of the victims is around 7 and 8 years old, an age when children begin to discover their own sexuality and its power and are therefore easier to encourage. Men who are attracted to children of this age are generally not attracted to those older or younger and vice versa. What stimulates them is quite different. What treatment they need is also quite different.

Our man was not the infant molesting type, nor the usual paedophile. His sexual acts were with boys 9-13 and as I said before, we don’t know if that was one 9 year old and all the rest 13 years old. It IS an important distinction. At puberty the male child receives a sudden dramatic increase in the amount of testosterone circulating in the blood: this fuels the sexual appetite. In many primitive societies the onset of puberty is the start of adulthood, for boys and girls alike (often with elaborate initiation rites) and pairing and sexual bonding occur naturally subsequently and not always within the same age group. It is not unnatural for an adult to be sexually attracted to a sexually mature adolescent and vice-versa in any society. Different social mores have imposed restrictions on generationally different sexual bonding, but this is a social function and therefore imposed, not a biological or psychologically innate one.

I won’t repeat all that I’ve said before about this case, except to point out once again that there is a world of difference between what happened to KevinN for example, and what happened to me, and what happened to the victims of our CM. The penalties associated with each crime must be different and in the case of post pubescent street kids, less severe, other things being equal. That’s my opinion, based on no concrete details at all of this case! Maybe I am full of shit after all Kevin!

I can fully understand the emotional response to the question: “What if it was one of your children?” The automatic response to a perceived danger is protection/aggression. A more considered response would be to assess the level of danger and the possible affect on the child, taking into account in particular the age of the child and his or her level of maturity and previous sexual experience. Also of course what type of sexual abuse we are talking about and whether it was consensual sex or rape, for example.

Those of you who never get further than a knee jerk reaction will not appreciate that statement, since you will lump anything remotely sexual concerning young people as molestation. ‘Molestation’ is already a loaded term. It is not so cut and dried.

Perhaps we can have some debate (fewer knee jerks please) over three apposite situations, all taken from here in Thailand.

Example one. I was with one of the ‘victims’ of Eric Rosser, the paedophile who was until recently on the USA’s Top 10 Most Wanted List, when they were re-introduced to each other, having been out of contact for several years. They had spent quite a long time together previously when she was a young teenager. There was no remorse on his part and no hatred on hers. They greeted each other with obvious affection. I discussed this with her at length. She confided in me that he had been really good to her and that she still liked him. “He is a good man” she insisted. She herself was not remotely affected by her experiences. This was one case that I am familiar with and I can’t speak for his other ‘victims’ since I have not interviewed them. If any were hurt or traumatised (I don't know of any) I don't mean to belittle your situation.

Example two. When a 40 year old hill tribesman in the North of Thailand marries a local girl of 11 years (and they have children when she is 12), is he a paedophile? In some cultures here in Thailand, for example Lahu, this is not considered abnormal. I know so many families where this has occurred and they are ‘normal’ in every (other) respect, living very contented lives. In America he would be locked away and local citizens would call for his hanging (or so it seems from reading some of these posts).

Example three. Thailand is full of street kids, who sell garlands and food and trinkets, or just beg. Many start at 4 or 5 years of age and by the time they are 10 or 11, are as streetwise as it is possible to be. You cannot compare these children to others of that age who are brought up in a ‘normal’ caring, protective, family. Your children for example. The Child Molester in question may have procured boys off the street, boys who regularly sell sexual favours to local people (just as very young girls here do) usually to their Thai ‘minders’. I see that many times here and have talked to some of them about their experiences. This possibility would not condone his activities (having sex with minors because they are already experienced and willing is not OK, per se and it is after all against the laws of this land, despite what is accepted in the remoter regions), but before concluding that he should be locked away for life for ‘whatever he did’, wouldn’t this at least be a mitigating circumstance (as in, surely less than 42 years)?

This is my last attempt to open a meaningful discussion. If it fails I’m outa here and will try less emotive subjects like Elite cards…oops, just noticed the knee-jerkers are there too. Gawwd.

Low IQ, feelings of inadequacy even oppression, strongly held opinions…unable to follow reason, tormented minds, aggression directed as those seen as less fortunate.

I’m describing a psychological state that afflicts many people we might know and which some posters to this subject may be all too familiar with.

I have studied psychology to advanced degree level, worked in a maximum securirty mental prison with patients who have committed muder most foul and lectured on the subject for a number of years in the UK. Today I am researching/writing a book on mass psychology.

I pointed out early in this thread that first and foremost we don’t know the details of this case beyond a generalised account in a newspaper article. Any conclusive judgement based on such spurious information is nonsense, though we are all entitled to express our opinions. I just wish they were more balanced.

I said before, but I can see that it is worth stating again, there are degrees of child molestation and given that everyone accepts that CM is a crime (and possibly a mental sickness too) it should be punished/treated. But surely the sentence should be in relation to the nature and degree of the crime committed?

Ten years and psychiatric counselling may be enough for this man. I have seen hardened murderers turned around in less. And on that point let me tell you that given the best case scenario (the best case OK) I outlined in my earlier post, ten years would be way too much.

I wonder if you have noticed that three people here, myself included, have owned up to having been molested as children and yet none of us have called for hanging and castration of this fellow. What is it the rest of you know that we don’t?

When the finger points to the moon, the idiot looks at the finger.

Kevin, please tell us where you've read about this guy buggering young boys. Haven't seen anything about that anywhere. Or was that your fantasy?

If you break the law and know about it you have to face the penalties and accept them. That's a given and there's not much point saying it. But I was hoping to read some more enlightened discussion about this case.

As an aside, what's all that nonsense about liberals? Who were you referring to Kevin? If it was me I'd like to inform you that I'm not a 'liberal', but if there is one word that would describe all that is best that I have learned in my 10 years living in Thailand and 13 with a Thai wife, it is 'tolerance'. Without it you cannot hope to really fit in here. And in case I'm quoted out of context, I'm referring to Kevin's comments here, not to my attitude towards the child molester, which have been made clearly enough already.

I think that some of you posting hatred messages on this topic need to look into your own psyche very carefully. What is it that induces your hatred of this young man? How can you possibly condone the sentence of 42 years in ###### on the basis of the limited information about his crime that we have been given?

What we know: It appears that he has been sexually molesting at least nine boys aged 9 to 13 over a period of six months and has videod some of his acts and posted them on the internet. He was discovered only because the police in the UK intercepted his pictures.

What we don’t know: what the sexual acts were. Whether the boys were lured under false pretences to his room. When there, whether they were forced into performing these acts or did so willingly. Were they rewarded for their actions. Did they come back for more on subsequent occasions of their own volition. Did they suffer physically or mentally as a result. Did any of them complain to anyone in authority. Was that eight boys aged 9 and one aged 13 or the other way around. Was this his first offence of this nature. And least important, did he make any money from his activities?

Let’s assume the worst case: he lured unsuspecting 9 year old victims into heinous sexual acts against their will that hurt them physically and scarred them mentally for life. They went to the authorities (parents, teachers, police) who did nothing to help them. He has done this many times before. He profited from this activity by selling the pictures.

If this is the case then he should be given a severe custodial sentence that includes psychological counselling and he should not be released from custody until he has been declared fit by a psychiatrist and also attoned for his crime against society and sins against humanity. Unless the man is ‘not of sound mind’ (we don’t know that either) I expect that this could be achieved in not more than 10 years, but I’ll bow to your better judgement if you are an expert in remedial or psychiatric care.

But let’s assume the best case: he took advantage of poor but streetwise pubescent boys by offering them rewards in return for some sexual activities that didn’t affect them negatively. They may even have enjoyed it and returned for more. They didn’t see any reason to tell anyone in authority about it. He sent pictures to his mates foolishly boasting of his exploits, but without any intent on financial gain. He’s never done anything like this before and (having been caught and reprimanded) would never do it again

42 years? Come come people. Is murder less of a sin worthy of punishment than this?

Ok, so I don’t know the facts of this case any more than you do. Perhaps he falls somewhere between those two extreme cases. My point is merely to expose the underlying aggression demonstrated by some posters to this topic (and I suspect by many silent readers too) and to ask you … why? Bigotry perhaps? And to those steering this thread to farang lovers of young boys in Pattaya, that smacks of homophobia to me.

In anticipation of your hatred now being turned onto me, let me tell you a little about my profile first. I am happily married to a Thai woman. I’m heterosexual. I do not have an unusual sexual fascination with prepubescent children (I’m not a paedophile). I am tolerant of other people’s sexual behaviour regarded as deviant in some societies (such as homosexuality). I do not condone physical or mental abuse.

Furthermore I was molested at the age of 8 by a 40-ish year old man, a stranger, who lured me (with the prospect of food) into sex. It happened once, I escaped (and was chased) and didn’t report it for another two years (to my Mother). I was not hurt by his actions and had no reason to believe that he wanted to hurt me, but I knew that what he did was wrong. I didn’t report it because I was embarrassed by my stupidity. Although I thought about it often, it did not ‘affect’ me psychologically then or now. I’m a well-adjusted individual.

What would I have thought if that man had taken photos and posted them on a website (hypothetical of course because this was 40 years ago). Embarrassment and anger for that act much more than the sexual act itself. But I would have been mortified to think that he would have ended up in life imprisonment (in ######) for it.