TITI1971

read between the lines...

We don't going to do a new coup....in exchange we need Bt770 Billion to renew some material...

For celebrate end of their stay in Chiang Mai, some friends want to enjoy a real good piece of beef steack in a restaurant in town. Which place and where to go ? not necessary the cheaper one just a garanteed good adress to go... my last stay 2 years ago I went to a geman beer garden up Loy Kro but now is closed...

<font color='#000000'>Rinrada,

The description of "Farang Pub" does list "naughty bars" and I didn't go into the juicy details. </font>

hey i liked picking up birds at the BUBBLES nightclub in CM - near pornping hotel if i remember it right

enjoy !

now Bubble is closed... left the "Hot shot" in the corner of Pornping hotel...

I think comparing Abhisit to Lincoln is a bit of a stretch.

The article is classic Pravda propaganda, prepared by the party faithful.

What it doesn't mention is Thailand's fatal flaw - mob rule has replaced the electoral process, which people have completely lost faith in. Neither does the Pravda article mention that Abhisit's lot used this very same method of mob rule to pave the way for the parliamentary deal that got him into power in the first place. Thais support fair play, and while such a system of injustice and hypocrisy prevails there will never be peace. We might also bear in mind that Abhisit's pretext for snatching power was reconciliation, but all we have seen is more chaos. Far from being celebrated as the next Abe Lincoln, Abhisit is just as much focus of hatred as Thaksin is - both of them should withdraw from public life and give the country a chance to repair its broken democracy.

Restoring the public confidence in their right to elect their leaders is really what the Thai authorities should be concentrating on right now. Elections are pointless until the army and judiciary stop meddling with the result.

Your heros burned down the city yesterday - You must be so proud!

and the real other heroes ordered to shot on most unnarmed and pacifist peoples.... Catch the terrorist OK, kill them during a clash, almost OK but shot for free, bad, very bad... cleaning the area is right, but cleaning the area doesn't "clean" the real problem. Using guns is a lose lose solution, for both sides.

Completely absurd! I am an adult with little to fear from the Red Shirts, or anyone else in Bangkok. Once again, the Thai government chooses to treat its citizenry and the others living here as if we are all 12 years old. Why is it that every "solution" from these guys tends towards the lose- lose category? Incidentally, I walked around last night at 10PM. It was quiet, but there were still normal people out and about. One taxi even tried to pick me up for a fare.

This is the only thing I can say.... lose-lose solution... the problem is...it will still be the same as the government will be blind of what happend all these bad days... and both sides will continous to mistake...

There is no proof that the Italian reporter was killed by friendly fire

And it won't be until the government use his power on every media and let only their speech to them... Only 1 voice, only 1 vision, only the government's choice is right, only the government has right, blablabla blablabla and of course every single Thai peoples has to follow this or die ! sounds almost like dictatorship... freedom of media where are you ?

There's nothing complicated about this situation. The PM has two choices.

1. Clear the protesters swiftly and effectively.

2. If he is unable to do this, he must step down and dissolve parliament.

There is no third option.

3rd option possible :

- Clear the protesters swiftly and effectively AND immediately after step down and dissolve parliament. New election, new PM not red nor yellow (or a change in the constitution for a differnt style of government, federal union or ...), and try to fix every problem from the justice to the army, and first teach to every Thai the real problem without use the words Farmer, poor, uncivilized, ... and manage the country without the pressure of elitist and rich peoples. Manage the country for EVERY Thai with respect of each other.

But I know I am dreaming.... it will be blood again, protest again, no election, no justice, and always the words poor, farmer, enemy, terrorist, unciviliszed, elitist, rich and absolutely no care of all the Thai peoples, just care of the(ir) business and money...

all my friends are yellow or red, farmer (some are rich enough) or businessmen (some are poor enough), everybody know each other and they know which color they are... but there are for sure no terrorist and no politicians.... and when we party together there is no bad words, no guns, no fight, no problems, or perhaps just too much alcohol.... just normal people I must say.

No end in sight. Is there a way to end this peacefully?

Well, why not let them vote? Plus, it just might save some innocent lives - and some people say, the economy too.

But that might mean a "loss of face" and that the "terrorists win". We can't have that, can we?

Let them vote... I am not sure the red will win again.... but for me the problem will never be solved even with the vote. The future PM or government have to share the power with the opposition or minimum to respect them and hear their voice.... if you think your are the boss of the country and you do what you want, so it's not a real democracy. It is what the "red" peoples are thinking now. Vote for someone, but see nothing back... or better idea, the new PM come from a minor party not yellow nor red, like this perhaps the ego of both sides will step down and they will manage the country for every Thai not only for their Thais (supporters).

Thai emergency services have refused to confirm the government's claim that three people died in Thursday night's violence.

They say one woman died.

Well, what is going on Abhisit.........the situation is clearly out of control and all kind of misleading information is being issued by your govnt!!!

don't be a douche...."the situation is clearly out of control and all kind of misleading information is being issued by"....EVERYONE!

of course... but a government who lied has no reason to be trusted by the Thai peoples... and when the "red" government has problem with corruption or problem to manage the country, the yellow use all their energy to ban them from politics... but when a PM yellow is in "charge" of the country and failed completly then no problem is the fault of the other never your own fault.

This PM preferr to see innocent peoples dying for his cause and stay seated in his good chair as a PM than solve the problem (disperse the manifest) and probably quit the government after because if you are normal human you cannot accept peoples died. And if you show a little bit of human sense, they will reelect you in the next vote..

There were reporters and non-protesters on the Silom side of Rama IV that would have seen anyone on that side setting off these grenades.

The Saladaeng BTS station is a direct line down Silom Rd from the entrance to Lumpini Park where the reds are stationed.

There are plenty of eyewitness accounts of "firecrackers" coming from the red side. It would be easy to mistake the launch of grenades as firecrackers if you had never seen a grenade launched.

It is clear that these grenades came from the red side.

One thing I should know by now, is that nothing is clear.

Until I see it on video exactly how this happened, I do not believe the reds or the government about who may have perpetrated this act. Motives lie with so many people and groups, I prefer to be pleasantly surprised than awfully disappointed when the truth comes out.

+ 1, but even on video it will be hard to believe for me, as someone can edit a video and show what he wants to show

1 dead

Sad indeed

Bombing a train is terrorism.

Yes it is. And the red leader Jatuporn had threatened to do this before. They are going for broke. Of course it was the reds who did the bombing. Can there be any question?

Grandpops and Che are among the few desperate voices who predictably and nonsensically deny the Reds could/would do anything as gauche as toss bombs. Well, you guys have typecast yourselves as indelibly allied to the Red mob - and therefore you're compelled to echo whatever the Red leaders shout over their PA systems. If the Red leaders tell their minions; "Any bad thing that looks like it's done by a Red shirt is really a Yellow shirt dressed as a Red shirt" (essentially what they said last month) .....then Red apologists are compelled to ape that line. If bombs get propelled and bullets shot from the Red side and the Red leaders say it can never have happened, then Red apologists will have to believe that ridiculous concept also.

To borrow a line from an old Niel Young song; "It's so hard to make love pay, when you're on the losing end....." (substitute the phrase 'mob rule' for 'love' and you get the picture)

.....Some guys are on the losing end. ....Now if the security forces would find their backbones and get to doing their jobs .....Bangkokians and Thais can get back on track.

I firmly condemn any kind of violence, whatever colors it comes from and not only today but the past years also... but what the government is doing now ?

Army repeat and repeat to reds to move or be ready to be dispersed.... but nothing... yellows supporters gave an ultimatum to government, if nothing is done within this week they will go out manifest also... and since 2 days multi colored peoples came in the same area manifest and defi the reds, the same area forbidden to stay for the reds but multicolored can come manifest without any legal advice and warning... and army do nothing, no intervention to disperse, no intervention to don't let a clash between civilians opposed side...

All the time passed is in advantage for the PM and government... as if something happens from the reds he can say it's their fault... but he preferr to let the job to civilians multicolored or yellows to confront and fight with the reds and perhaps lose their life... so you really think that the PM and the government care of the Thai peoples, whatever colors they could be ? or wherever they come from... nothing, he use multi colored and yellow supporters as human shield also for protect his as*

Sorry I think it's hilarious - only in Thailand would the military be hijacked. I think this is another case of we are staying out of this.

Well when you get a group of red thugs who use women and young children and as human shields because they have been bribed with money ,what do you expect , the army don't want kill them.

How can anyone support these reds.

Taking 2 airport with thoushands and thousand peoples, most foreginers, as hostage, do you think it's normal ? it was very clever and the hostage was the reason the army didn't shot also... imagine the international press if you shot inside an airport terminal

"Mr Jatuporn said he believes the Red Shirt death toll is not just 21, but that more corpses were hidden."

Who hide them in that case? His own people, the hospital? the army had enough job taking care of their on dead and wounded.

Don't you think the army and the govt have interest to keep the list of the killed red shirts "low"`?

Do they show news reports with video evidence of dead protestors at television or is the army/govt busy with repeating the clip of the grenade attack on the soldiers over and over again?

welcome to the Thai freedom of media... they are always following a leader but not abolutely a PM in charge in 2006 or 2007 or 2008 for example)

So this EC hands out a " verdict/conclusion " about which they are not sure because they are still investigating, and still have to summon people to be heard , if I read and understood it all correctly, and were also pressured by one of the sides in the current conflict to do so.

Something tells me that this is not the way to handle this, true or not.

True or not ? but they want to play a little bit key role at this time ? not only yellow-red-police-army-government game...

but the pressure was the same when they ban TRT/PPP peoples.... 1 side pressure... I don't think they have pressure from the reds as they normally vote elitist and yellow if they are not partial...

The PAD have got nothing to protest about (at least regarding this case). They should stay at home.

And the reds haven't won anything. It's the courts that make these decisions.

The reds may still not get the elections they are after. The ex-Dems and smaller parties may still form government.

If the court decided long time ago...there was nothing happened last saturday and last month in the streets... and if PAD is really banned...so the red probably should has the power in 2008 again, same as majority elector's choice... but this is thai politics and thai rules... corruption, elitist politicaly implicated, army vs police vs government, censorship, liers, partial justice, violence etc... everything for make every hollywood movies in 1... and with colors...

I think that the court has enough to hear they are completly at the sold of yellow and unpartial...so they choose to react, ban PAD same they ban other side... but i am worry if PAD supporters will protest in the streets after sonkgran, hope the reds will move before or next clash is comming...

They lied many times last week....

- Abhisit said he will take full responsability of giving full power to Army and Police under the martial law... now we count the peoples dead... Abhisit still alive in power...Army and Police chief also...

2nd lie

- all saturday army and police said they didn't use real live bullets.... except in evening when we count the peoples dead and they said yes we use live bullet...but only in the sky... wherever you shot, they lied about bullets....

The only other lie whe cannot hear are on PTV... we cannot hear or watch it because governmnet cut the signal...

Once PTV gets reconnected you can hear the red lies all day.

so let them reconnect and you are free to watch it or not... have to watch only Thai TV now is like lobotomy... to see all this disinformation on every channel... freedom of media, where are you ?

Where can we see pictures of the terrorists as the govt. described them who shot the red shirts? My staff said she saw in a Thai newspaper. Dressed in all black with black masks. This is some sick stuff here. I wonder who hired them. Their is motive everywhere you look.

The red leader Sae Daeng has already admitted they were his. Thaksin needs the violence to overthrow this government. Martyrs do most of the work for Thaksin as no government in Thailand seems to last long after violence on the streets.

Arisman, Sae daeng, Nattawutt, Jatuporn, Veera, Dr Weng, etc have all called for violence for quite awhile now ... why? Thaksin needs it.

Reds on the board here have stated that the Reds won when they got Abhisit to agree to talk and then agree to dissolve parliament early. Why didn't the reds take that "win"? Simply because Thaksin cannot have an organized government in place that stands for the rule of law for that long. Thaksin MUST get the government replaced before the charter is ammended (via referendum) and before next year's budget is set, and before the military reshuffle.

I wondered about that myself. Govt said okay, they will dissolve at end of year. Reds said no. Must be now. Seemed a bit odd. What happens after the charter is amended that would spell the end to Thaksin's hope of a comeback?

What "win" ?

The Reds want Democracy now, and and end to the elites corrupt hold on power since the coup. They want an end to what is now a very basic lack of any "checks and balance".

If someone beats you up, takes your children and your money and leaves you with nothing how do you feel ?

If they give you back one child but keep the others and your money, do you accept that "win" ?

Given the lies being pumped out now, and the media propaganda, can you be sure that if they agree to elections now they will not change their mind later ?

They said "9 months is the earliest". Impossible quicker.

Now they say "well it can be quicker".

So they lied about 9 months !

Whoever said 9 months and lied, obviously now has blood on their hands for causing the events that followed.

They lied many times last week....

- Abhisit said he will take full responsability of giving full power to Army and Police under the martial law... now we count the peoples dead... Abhisit still alive in power...Army and Police chief also...

2nd lie

- all saturday army and police said they didn't use real live bullets.... except in evening when we count the peoples dead and they said yes we use live bullet...but only in the sky... wherever you shot, they lied about bullets....

The only other lie whe cannot hear are on PTV... we cannot hear or watch it because governmnet cut the signal...

It won't be over "until it's over" and I don't see that happening any time soon.

The red shirts are just a crazed group egged on by the former head waiter. He in fact is the prime guilty party.

And as so many have already said Abhisit demonstrated remarkable calm and restraint from 'day # 1'

Well, you got that totally wrong, didn't you?

These people are not "just a crazed group egged on by the former head waiter" as you state.

They are people who are fighting for human and civil rights within their country of birth.

I assume that you are not a Thai national and therefore know little or nothing of the structure of Thai society.

Before you start adding "wise guy" comments as above, you should learn a little, live with the people a little, research a little - and then give a balanced view of the situation.

Abhisit is a puppet; the army are pulling the strings. And who are the army controlled by?

There are several tiers in the higher echelons of Thai society.

They do not want to lose the power, nor the opportunity to carry out their corrupt practices.

Power and money - these are the main concerns for "your" people - assuming that you are 'yellow', of course.

Who is pulling the strings and craving the power for the red shirts? How good is the human and civil rights record of this particular person?

-Remotely, Thaksin and locally the deranged leaders on scene.

-They have turned it into a disgrace.

-I still support the goals of the red masses but no longer can, in good conscience, support the insane inflammatory actions of their leaders. I can only condemn them.

-Despite it seeming a retreat, I think withdrawing and reforming later as a political force/party divorced completely from Thaksin and his Lieutenants is probably the best way forward.

-The government has it's own big issues as well.

-I think Abhisit has proven he is probably one of the few PM worthy politicians in this country.

-I don't think how he got there is right, but, he is there now. (lets just disagree w/o rehashing the argument please)

-I would prefer he remained PM rather than the list of horrible horrible choices that could replace him from the Democrats, the reds, or the army.

-I think he is one of the few who can possibly contain this firestorm which threatens to envelop the nation.

-I hope he can calm it down without further violence.

-I think one of the big steps towards this is getting out of the blame game and stating clearly all sides own blame in this drama.

-I hope he can keep the lid shut on the military coup aspirations and the aspirations of more radical semi-associated groups (such as PAD) to use this as an opportunity to rage their own war against the poor.

not bad... but you forget to say for Abhisit...

- I hope he will stop to lie to Thai peoples and I hope he will stop to use pressure and control oriented on every media (oups, I almost use the word censorship).

This is starting to become a planned and targeted guerrilla war in the capital.

Today we see the kidnapping of the CEO of CAT. Before we had a few soldiers kidnapped etc... now it is at an escalated level. If this carries on: kidnapping and ransom of top power people... moving to street by street conquests e.g. top shopping centers, regional government and army head quarters, rich business people etc. It is the end of any stability for many years!

Before it escalates to a high blood price, where even the leaders of this will not be able to stop it i.e. local "rebel" commanders and govt have no control of the foot soldiers of all sides, something needs to be done.

We haven't got to that point yet.... But at that point your paper money is worthless, your lands and assets can be taken to pay for the "war". Farang/Thai it will not make a difference at that point!

remember the "kidnapping" at BKK airport in 2008....

Let arrange general election ASAP, why do you afraid? You still can arrange a military coup when you fail to win the election. The initial problem is come from you, the rich yellow shirts supporters

Why not arrange a new election right now? Simply because Thailand has a constitution and is a democracy.

If any group comes to ask for a new election because they can't wait for a new one, then it's not democracy anymore, it's the beginning of chaos.

Demonstrations works many times with yellows... so reds want the same...

And democracy for me is to accept the vote of the Thai citizen... they didn't voted democrats more than PPP or PTP... Democrats use all their connection with the court for disband as many opposite members for do pressure on the small other political part to change their mind and do a new coallition with democrat...

In normal country when you see disfunctions in the official vote you organise a new vote... note use the court for ban all the opposite members you can and say you win election by Thai peoples ballots...

This is democracy, real one. vote and respect the color of the result... not sure it will be red next time...but respect the vote !

People shouldn't underestimate the power of disinformation.

The disinformation which hurt the most the Red Shirt is about the allegations of corruption of Thaksin.

He is labelled as "Corrupted" so instantly relegated as the bad guy.

But as everything else, corruption is quantifiable.

People usually watch the superficial, official story and make up their mind with that. Corrupted=Bad.

The truth is much more subtle and complex than that.

Just like the Temasek-Shin Corp deal. People think Thaksin evaded taxes illegally. It is false. The deal was legal. Where he did wrong was that he used his power and political influence to bend the law to allow a foreign company to own a telecommunication company of Thailand, which was impossible before.

The other corruption accusations.. his wife buying from the IFDF, the appointment of relatives to key positions, etc. Those are relatively bad, but also relatively harmless. Someone overly by the book could argue that no corruption at all should be tolerated in any circumstances, but it wouldn't fit in the real world as corruption is practically everywhere, including in the West. We could argue that the US Republicans were infinitely more corrupted than Thaksin and that caused wars but thats another story.

This story of corruption was tightly knit by his opponents. This is simply politic warfare, nothing less.

The fact is, Thaksin clearly improved the living conditions of the often forgotten people living up-country. That is impossible to refute.

His opponents were mainly middle-class from Bangkok, who felt left-out with "region-oriented" policies of Thaksin.

Let's be frank here, Thaksin was a successful and ambitious man. Like many men in his position, he misused and abused his power.

But he's not worst than the others. He's not worst than the current prime minister, Abhisit Vejajiva who cunningly found his way to the top. Abhisit was also charged for a lot of corruption cases (bribes, inflated prices, conflit of interests and shuch) , with the difference that tribunal ruled against Thaksin and cleared Abhisit. He is still under investigations for other cases of corruption.

Let's not forget that Thaksin got ousted by the military, which is highly undemocratic.

The Commander-in-Chief at the time of the coup d'état was openly opposed to Thaksin (because Thaksin appointed relatives in the Army) and it explain why the coup happened.

Let's also not forget that Abhisit party got less seats than the UDD supported Pheu Thai Party and only got power because of a coalition of 5 parties.

How would you feel if the party who helped you get out of poverty, helped you to get better access to health care won the elections but didn't govern ?

Most likely, if you are politically active, you would be protesting in the street, like the UDD is doing.

Now are they right, are they wrong, that's not for us to judge, but its definitely justified.

+1 approve totally

In my school, when 2 boys fight, our teacher will punish the boy who put out the first punch.

I'll let you be the judge.

and of course you going to have thousand of reply to say it's the fault of demonstrators, they break the law under the martial law... and have weapons and tons of bla bla bla for protect the government of liers who all the day they said they use rubber bullet and teargas... and finally said they use real bullet when we can count the peoples dead... and when 3 days ago the PM said he will take full responsability to give full power to army and police to restore order (clean demonstrators) from BKK under the martial law... but he is still in charge of this country... double lier last few days... so how you can trust this kind of politicians, both side have liers or propagandist and clash is the result...

Pretty clear what side you back

You believe any red rhetoric and rants you read

Put yourself in the ARMY boots for ten seconds ..

then imagine a petrol bomb being tossed at you

What would you do?

If I as in the ARMY .... Kaboom

And if I am a convicted demonsrators of my true thinking, when i see thousand of police or army engaged in "cleaning" the demonstrators, i will stay quiet and offer them a lot of yellow flowers to put in their weapons (guns !).... of course not... win - win solution became a clash with dead peoples. No one to protect, red or yellow they have all their part of responsability, but army or police with government who lie all the day and said they use only teargas and rubber bullet for finally confirm they are loaded with real bullets just for shot in the sky... BIG LIERS AS ALWAYS IN POLITICS

When the next election is held, I think the Reds have just assured that the Democrats take their first majority vote result. Calm and measured versus hysterical and violent. Decisions, Decisions.

Veera , enough said, the treats say it all, they have played their hand , this is what the whole lot were about in the first place , nothing peacefull about this kind of garbage talk.

I totally agree with SomTumTiger.

The loss of life and the injuries are very sad indeed however in the circumstances I believe abhisit has handled the situation as best possible.

I also suggest that PM abhisit has been gaining strength and credibility and please be fair, he came into this role surrounded by a minefield which he is slowly working thru to be his own man. Yesterday and several times in the last few weeks he has openly criticized the military generals - a first ever for a civilian Thai PM, that takes morals, strength and credibility.

Abhisit will down in Thai history with a lot of positives.

and blood in his hands, same as the other side. No partial law, and justice for all !