Octaviousbp

Seven Fountains is a Catholic church on Huay Kaew near the university. English service is 9:30-10:30am Sundays.

Webpage: http://www.carefor.org/

Absolutely beautiful grounds.

This comment seems, to me, to be part of the problem of democracy in Thailand - the notion that one can just simply join another party, because its more popular.

Where are the ideologies, the policies, the manifesto? Are political parties in Thailand nothing more "fan clubs" for well-known figures?

Maybe the TRT MP's didn't join the party because of popularity, but it does seem as if lots of MP's will change to a different party, not because of their policies, but rather for their own political carrer.

I find that strange!

I'll join your party - not for it's believes or ideoligy - but for a nice car and a sweet paycheck....

Agree with this a hundred percent. I guess democracy has many faces...

Is the flooding having an impact on flight arrivals at the airport?

800 Baht? That is a steal! The travel clininc here in Canada just informed me that the Japanese Encephalitis vaccination is a 3 shot cycle that costs.... $115 (CAD) EACH! That is $345 for the whole cycle. Unbelievable... thanks for the info Earl, I will be waiting until I get to Chiang Mai.

and with this post... I match my membership number.

I've been here since the beginning, mostly lurking. I don't have much to say on most topics (worth posting anyway) so I usually keep quite.

If I remember, I came to Thai Visa when I was looking for information in 2002 about getting the right visa to box with. Since then I mostly lurk, ask the occasional question, participate briefly in political debates, etc.

Guess I'm one of the earlier members... not much of a poster though.

What about bodums and coarse ground arabica? Anyone come across bodums at Tesco?

One would have to wonder what the business interests are of the folks promoting tourism to support the military junta.

I guess ignoring the only elected government there and listening to folks on TV makes much sense. Skip what a Nobel Laureate has to say and listen to folks that have business interests there instead!

Well, my personal business interests are: I work for an NGO (not in any way related to Burmese affairs) and I volunteer for another NGO (directly related to Burmese affairs, though not political).

And to reitirate what I had stated many pages back, and has been echoed by at least one other poster now, the current elected Prime Minister of NCUB (National Council of the Union of Burma) Dr. Sein Win and the other members of the current elected presidium have stated that some travel is not only acceptable but encouraged. What kind of travel can be deemed "acceptable" has already been stated, and this thread is already taking it to the well flogged horse.

Burma Campaign UK is an NGO, from what I can gather, and does a lot of good work, I am sure. However, as also has been stated, even if they do represent the current position of Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, it does not mean that it is the current position of the contemporary democratic parliament.

A question for those in the know... what about art supplies? Canvas, paints (oil especially), brushes, etc.? Are they comparitively expensive (with the West)? A friend is contemplating an extended stay and I know nothing of painting supplies.

Thanks!

I don't know about "knock-offs", but the "student market" on huay kaew has affordable clothing.

^^Note^^ By "Forum" I mean like in the old days, in person... not on the Internet. Sorry for the confusion. Bad choice of word.

Sorry Oct ... you and our roving photographer that wants to take pics to sell to promote tourism into Myanmar seem to be the odd men out on this one.

That's perfectly fine. For people who can't be bothered to go to the source themselves and contact NGOs and Burmese organizations regarding the issue are exactly the types who should not go to Burma. I would much rather the majority of the people assume a 100% travel boycott then the other way around.

The select few who wish to do the research (beyond websites perhaps? Email is a great way to get in touch with some people who are actively working for Burma's cause) and ask some of these organizations if it is okay to travel to Burma, are more likely to be the type to take the time and educate themselves, and pass on the information they gain.

And who knows, maybe the position has changed again... but I doubt it, since I was at a forum not more than a month ago. I have emailed two separate groups to see what their stance is. I'll report back.

One way or another, it is refreshing to see people are actually interested in this, and this debate being public can only be beneficial.

LaoPo: You seem quite passionate about Burma, which is great. A heck of a lot better than apathy. However... I don't need to contact Dr. Sein Win, as I remember the talk quite clearly. How do I justify that he has a different opinion than Aung San Suu Kyi? Do I need to...? Is she the only one that has any ideas about the emancipation of the Burmese people?

Certainly, she has done more for the plight of the Burmese than any other individual, however to look to her as the sole salvation for the Burmese cause would be a huge mistake. If that is the case, than the junta has already won by placing her in jail. The truth is, thousands of people are actively working for the betterment of the Burmese situation, and many of them are bright people with great ideas. Most of them inspired by and following in the footsteps of The Lady. However, believe it or not... some of their opinions may differ to Aung San Suu Kyi's.

Or... maybe you're quoting outdated websites that aren't up to speed with her latest opinions regarding tourism. I'm not saying they are... but it is a possibility. Time's do change.

I believe the most progressive approach is one that addresses the matter in a critical fashion, not a fanatical one. Like I said earlier, we shouldn't be under the illusion that the resistance to the junta is a solid comprehensive mass. We are different people, coming from different parts of the world, with different ideas.

For what little I do with the Burmese groups that I work with here (compared to some of their unyielding efforts), I will continue to address the issues in as openminded way as possible.

I have noted your website's ideas, and will definitely mention to the people that I talk to about Burma that tourism is still a very controversial affair.

NGO's (yes I know many folks hate them ... I love them ... though there are org's I hate) can do the travelling into and out of Myanmar ... get word out ... deal with the rest as well .... It doesn't take 'tourism' which bolsters the current regime ...

what kind of 'tourism' do you think is acceptable?

I am of a similar opinion of NGOs, though I wouldn't go as far to say I love them. Rather I appreciate the ability for progressive ones to have a real impact on social change. Emphasis on some of them.

My undestanding of NGOs in Burma, and it is a very preliminary understanding, is that the junta is well aware of the NGOs ability to raise ruckus, and therefore make things very difficult for them. Furthermore, where are these people sleeping/eating, and why can't individuals do the same? I think NGOs are helpful to the cause, but should not be looked to exclusively for raising global awareness.

As far as what kind of "tourism" I think is acceptable, as I stated earlier, echoing the Prime Minister's comments, I think individuals and small groups who take the time to educate themselves before they go and pass on the knowledge they've gained upon their return can be beneficial. I have red 3 books recently that spoke of many of the injustices occuring in Burma, which would not have been possible had the authors not dared to venture in, for a first hand account. I think the advantages gained by the writing of these books outweigh the potential harm caused by the minimal economic support of the regime. Also, I don't think only authors are acceptable, but anyone who can spread the word. A letter to a local MP or Senator complete with first hand accounts can, believe it or not, go a long way.

As I mentioned earlier, just my 2 cents.

In regards to the Burma Campaign info: This is a common position, no doubt about. The rational explained to me by a Burmese colleague was that boycotts (economically state to state as well as tourist) are justified and proactive in that the Burmese people are poor already. They are survivors and will be able to continue surviving as they have since 1962. However a boycott will hurt the Burmeses elite, and may result in change. As I mentioned in my last post, I am in agreeance with this, however, a complete 100% boycott of "tourism" will also serve to leave the rest of the world in the dark. I guess part of the problem is the word "tourism", in that I am not thinking of vacationing... I hope this helps clarify.

1. Where did you get the info that the NCUB recommends that?

2. You're wrong here. One way or another the 'Regime' will ALWAYS benefit from the expenditures of the tourists

3. I suggest you read this:

http://www.burmacampaign.org.uk/action_holiday.html

1. This information came from a personal conversation I had with the Prime Minister. Because of my work with the Burmese community in my hometown, I was able to have a brief audience with him after a speaking engagement. Therefore, sorry, no link. However I am sure someone in his office would be glad to answer any specific questions you may have via email.

2. While it is true that the junta will see profit from any purchase made within its borders by tourists, this profit is fractionary compared to the benefit it would produce for the private owner. Don't get me wrong, I am against large scale tourism completely, however, if people want to go see the atrocities that are going on in Burma with their own eyes, who are we to stop them. One of the largest impediments to Burmese advocacy at the global level is that it falls on deaf ears. The more people that become aware of the situation in Burma, the more receptive they may become. So in this regard, if you are going to Burma, don't just snap a few pictures as if it was Disneyland... write about it. Become educated about the situation before you leave for Burma, and when you return tell the world what is going on there. This makes our job easier (those trying to facilitate change within their own countries). Unfortunately, on the global stage, Burma falls under the category of "out of sight, out of mind" for most people.

3. Believe me, I have read it, and know the context in which it was written. I am in agreeance with it as well, however some things are not so simple and black and white.

Lastly, this is just my opinion. As this thread reflects, even amongst those that seek democratic reform in Burma there are antagonisms and conflict. This is symbolic of the hardships that the democratic coalition faces in their attempts to see structural change in Burma.

Ivanhoe Mines................................................Canadian

Even worse than Ivanhoe mines operating in Burma is the fact that every Canadian citizen that receives a paycheck supports the regime. Our Canadian Pension Plan (CPP) invests in Ivanhoe Mines. Afterall, slavery yields fairly decent profits.

As far as tourism goes in Burma, NCUB (the government-in-waiting) recommends that people visit Burma. However they oppose participating in any type of tourist package deal, as these are put on by government run businesses. Daw Aung San Suu Kyi's request for people to avoid Burma was made in the 1990's, when the junta was subsidizing a good portion of their regime on profits made off of large scale tourism packages aimed primarily at the Chinese. Small scale tourists and backpackers that don't engage in package tourism are considered beneficial as they can spend directly in privately owned establishments. This is even more so now that the FEC is not used.

Prime Minister Sein Win also stated that foreign tourists are a boon to the psyche of the people in that they do not feel so isolated and can be hopeful that conscientious tourists will help spread the word of the plite of the Burmese people.

or myself, I am a retired professional engineer (on and off) and engineering-college teacher (off and on).

In my thirties, I had a decade as a celtic peasant, but had to work 40 hours a week as a nuclear reacctor controller to fund it. (Because peasantry in the UK is now negatively profitable as it has no infrastructure left---the UK drew all its peasants into its various secondary elites, particularly machine-making, and then used other countries' peasants---it was called the British Empire).

Now I am back amongst the peasantry, and happily proud of it. And it has given me an interest in the relationships amongst groups that make up a society, as I compare the societies of the places where I have lived and worked (England, Canada, Wales, Brunei, Singapore and Thailand).

OK. I have shown you mine---now show me yours!!!

Interesting life... glad you've wound up where you want to be!

I'm in my last couple months as a grad student, feverishly trying to finish my research. I'm writing on social institutions/movements as a means for progressive change in Thailand. I'm particularly interested in the Assembly of the Poor and concepts of engaged Buddhism. The theoretical base is from Robert Cox.

I've lived and worked in South Korea and Thailand, am currently in Canada, and heading back to Thailand mid-August for another stint of work.

I can understand Colpyat wanting a forum for academics. But I also agree with some of the other posters comments regarding the stuffiness of it. I'm of both minds, I think. I come to TV (and have been for years) to experience what is likely one of the biggest virtual communities regarding Thailand.

Some times I come here for advice on bikes, some times I come for a laugh, sometimes to check up on the headlines. However, since I am academically interested in Thailand, and spend a huge chunk of my life studying it, once in awhile it is nice to network with other academics who have chosen Thailand as their main interest. I mean, why is it okay for ESL teachers to network here, but not students/professors?

And if the answer to the question is "They can!", then my response would be, why not in subforum where everyone involved would know that the threads are going to be filled with pompous and pedantic diatribes meant to showcase ones "knowledge" about a subject? It would just be like a uni classroom!

On second thought... nvm

A good thread with lots to consider. I'm curious about the professional/academic/experiential background of some of the posters.

Acedemic discussion?

Everything on here is academic, detailed instructions on how to do virtually everything in Thailand are outlined perfectly in these pages. Hundreds of years of combined experience of living, working and surviving in Thailand is spread across this website every day.

And you want an academic area?

It's the talk of pompous buffoons? bah.gif

Get a life! and get a sense of humour!

uhm... can I reference that?

To answer the original question, the academic in me wants to say that it is a question of epistemology (the study of knowledge or "how do we know what we know") and ontology (the study of being). More simply, I think the "backwardness" of Thailand refers to your point of view.

Do you believe that history is linnear, from point A to B, from traditional to modern. Or do you believe in a plurality of histories? And if so, to whom are histories relevant (ie: individuals? cities? countries? civilizations?)

If you believe in the former version of history (modernist point of view), and adopt economics as an indicator of development along the road to modernization, than I suppose Thailand may be seen as backwards. Of course, Thailand can also be construed as culturally "backward" if you subscribe to modernism, because the end result ( point B ) is a destination characterized by homogenization. Right now, this homogonization is mostly considered to be Western culture.

If you adopt the latter viewpoint, that history can be plural and relative, then a comparison with the West becomes more difficult. In this case, the concepts of backwardness and progress are more ambiguous.

This seems kind of familiar to me, and I might have posted it earlier on a different thread. Sorry if I did.

As for myself, I don't think Thailand is "backwards" and that it lags behind Western countries. But on the other hand, by no means do I think things are hunky-dory across the board within the country, regardless of ones point of view. I think the issue is certainly complex and there are many things to take into consideration when considering whether or not it is indeed backwards.

Thanks for the feedback. Looking forward to the move!

I sense a band of highly trained monkey thieves. Thinkaboutit...

Seriously though, that sucks. Good luck.

I used to live near CMU, Huay Kaew side, which was pretty much a perfect location for me. The place we'll be staying this time is subsidized, and up in Mae Rim, so unfortunately not much of a choice.

How long did it take you to get there/back Pauly? I seem to remember it being around 15-20 minutes, but didn't head up that way too often and might be confused...