maphraw

Maybe you don't understand the meaning of "could"? It's very similar to "may" - they do have the legal ABILITY to do so, but it is left to their discretion.

So yes, they could, but generally - under the circumstances I outlined above - don't.

If there are any other flags that you've consciously evaded in the past, or have had any kind of sophisticated avoidance strategies that would imply you should have been aware of these requirements in the past, or there's anything shady about your business arrangements or lifestyle then all bets are off.

But what are you going to do, keep ignoring the requirement until they've got all the jurisdictions reporting on Americans? When computer systems are all joined up and decades from now your current transaction history is visible to them?

Haven't got any choice but damage control, do the filing now and cross your fingers, far better than waiting another year.

I totally with this assessment. And even if you don't have large amounts of money in Thailand start informing the IRS now and do the FBAR and Schedule B on your returns. Just start doing it. Probably wise to get a tax accountant who has experience with this to help out the first time. They are probably aware of some of loopholes and ways to approach the IRS under these circumstances. Actually, it is my hope and belief that unless you are talking about very large sums of money---hundreds of thousands or millions-there is a good chance you won't be bothered. Especially if you have been filing returns every year. The tax accountants that I have talked to, after explaining my situation, said the IRS will probably leave me alone or I might possible be penalized a percentage of the Thai interest/dividends I hadn't reported.

Question #8 -12 Streamlined Filing Compliance Procedures for Non-Resident, Non-Filer Taxpayers Questionnaire

TAX ADVISORS

8. Did you rely on the advice of a tax

professional for not filing required

U.S. tax returns?

a. If yes, is your tax

advisor located in the U.S.?

9. During the above-listed tax years fo

r this submission did you know that

you were a U.S. citizen or resident alien?

a. If yes, did you disclose to you

r tax professional that you were a U.S.

citizen or resident alien?

10. During the above-listed tax years for this submission, have you

declared all of your income in your country of residence?

11. If you used a tax professional, di

d you disclose the existence of the

accounts/entities you hold outside your

country of residence to your tax

professional?

12. Did you know you had a Report of Foreign Bank and Financial

Accounts (FBAR), Form TD F 90-22.1, filing requirement when you failed to file an FBA

I could be reading the above wrong but it seems to me it is better not to talk to a tax professional.

:

a. This is what an American tax accountant said his charges would be if he did my tax returns because I failed to report Thai interest/dividends/FBAR: $525 for each year's amended tax return which would go back 6 years. This amounts to $2,250. It includes PFIC computations. $125 for each year's FBAR totaling $750 (assuming 6 years). A reasonable cause letter drafted by his attorney $2,500. Total-$5,200.

I don't think his math is right but these were his exact figures. He said I was not eligible for 'Streamline' because I have filed tax returns in the past. I believe PFIC's are tax forms for foreign mutual funds.

$

$

Maybe you don't understand the meaning of "could"? It's very similar to "may" - they do have the legal ABILITY to do so, but it is left to their discretion.

So yes, they could, but generally - under the circumstances I outlined above - don't.

If there are any other flags that you've consciously evaded in the past, or have had any kind of sophisticated avoidance strategies that would imply you should have been aware of these requirements in the past, or there's anything shady about your business arrangements or lifestyle then all bets are off.

But what are you going to do, keep ignoring the requirement until they've got all the jurisdictions reporting on Americans? When computer systems are all joined up and decades from now your current transaction history is visible to them?

Haven't got any choice but damage control, do the filing now and cross your fingers, far better than waiting another year.

I totally with this assessment. And even if you don't have large amounts of money in Thailand start informing the IRS now and do the FBAR and Schedule B on your returns. Just start doing it. Probably wise to get a tax accountant who has experience with this to help out the first time. They are probably aware of some of loopholes and ways to approach the IRS under these circumstances. Actually, it is my hope and belief that unless you are talking about very large sums of money---hundreds of thousands or millions-there is a good chance you won't be bothered. Especially if you have been filing returns every year. The tax accountants that I have talked to, after explaining my situation, said the IRS will probably leave me alone or I might possible be penalized a percentage of the Thai interest/dividends I hadn't reported.

Is the 400,000 Baht for four years of study? Does it include accommodation? What kind of salary are we looking at for foreign teachers? Where is the university? Bangkok, upcountry?

FBAR. This thread is about FBAR

Yes obviously

But the question was asked if US actually gets info from Thai banks

The way they propose to do that is FATCA

I was agreeing with Jim that Thailand is not as yet a signatory

A friend who works in Thailand has just submitted his first FBAR (as I did a few weeks ago) He has been working in Thailand for sometime and always files a 2555 for foreign earned income exclusion. He said he is going to declare his Thai bank interest and mutual fund dividends for the first time and not notify the IRS that he hadn't been reporting his Thai assets as he should have been. He thinks they won't bother him because of the small amount and if they do make inquiries and audit him the penalties he might be subject to won't amount to much. An American Tax accountant I talked to in Bangkok (his name is Lanny--anyone know him?) felt that it could be a little more problematic than that. There is also a belief floating around the expat community I live in that there is a statute of limitations and if you have been filing your returns every year but haven't been declaring your Thai assets but include them on your 2013 return the IRS won't hold you accountable for your Thai assets held before the year 2010.

This is just some stuff I have heard and come across recently.

I don't want to beat this topic to death but I have used Turbo Tax before and made some major mistakes regarding the recording of the cost basis of some ETF's and stocks that I had sold. I didn't record them correctly on Turbo Tax and it wasn't clear how I was supposed to do it. (This is about 3 years ago and I no longer buy individual stocks, only a few mutual funds). I got a scathing letter from the IRS telling me I owed them the money for all of the stock sales.(a considerable amount) I was really frightened and I wrote a long letter of apology and assured them I would send them an amended return. I had the return amended by a tax accountant in Bangkok and the matter was settled and I didn't owe them anything. Actually, the IRS was very cordial about it all and helpful.

Recently (for tax year 2013)Turbo tax told me that they can extract all of my tax information from the brokerage I have my US assets with and all of the forms and little boxes Form 1040 and Sch B etc. will be filled in correctly. But when I do taxes, even with Turbo Tax, I fall into a kind of 'fear of math' syndrome. But I would definitely like to avoid the $475 accountant fee, which pretty high even by American standards. Death and taxes-the only two certainties. Once again JimGant, thanks for you advice and comments.

In the name of fair and balanced the only time I have ever had trouble with my taxes was the one time I used a CPA. Add to that, the number of members here that have posted that their US based "tax professionals" don't have a clue as to the FBAR requirements, I have to say that Turbo Tax or any similar service is a viable alternative to a high priced professional

You have to review your return with Turbo Tax to insure that everything is listed before you hit the submit button. It will do the math correctly but can't do what it doesn't have information about. (remember the old mantra about computers: garbage in, garbage out.)

A recent court decision by a US District Court has found that the Government failed to prove that it was a “willful” act of the defendant not to file an FBAR return. (A “willful” violation carries much heavier penalties.) While subsequent legislation specifically permits a lower level of proof from 2004 on, the first-of-its-kind decision was nevertheless a warning that the IRS needs to watch its step.

According to the IRS FBAR manual, “The mere fact that a person checked the wrong box, or no box, on a Schedule B is not sufficient, by itself, to establish that the FBAR violation was attributable to willful blindness.” Furthermore, as a recent article on this subject concludes: “A large number of taxpayers with foreign tax compliance problems are not purposeful tax evaders, but are merely unaware of these complex rules ... Therefore, sweeping the innocent (albeit, perhaps ignorant) subset into the same box that holds the real tax evaders is not sound tax policy…. [T]he taxpaying community needs to have faith that innocent mistakes will be dealt with fairly and reasonably.”

(Thanks to the firm of Daniels-Morson for bringing much of the information in this article to ACA’s attention.)

Last Updated July 22, 2012

I wonder what would happen if they discovered some prescription drugs you were given by a doctor or hospital and you didn't have the prescription with you.

I was going to do my taxes by myself using Turbo Tax but I might just pay the tax accountant his hefty fee ($475) and have him do my returns so it looks good and proper.

By saving a $475 accountant fee, I'd sure give Turbotax a try. It's pretty simple, especially if your tax situation is simple, as yours appears to be. And, apparently you can now efile with a foreign address, which wasn't always the case.

It certainly will look "good and proper" with Turbotax. Your accountant probably uses the professional version, and his efile will look the same as yours.

I don't want to beat this topic to death but I have used Turbo Tax before and made some major mistakes regarding the recording of the cost basis of some ETF's and stocks that I had sold. I didn't record them correctly on Turbo Tax and it wasn't clear how I was supposed to do it. (This is about 3 years ago and I no longer buy individual stocks, only a few mutual funds). I got a scathing letter from the IRS telling me I owed them the money for all of the stock sales.(a considerable amount) I was really frightened and I wrote a long letter of apology and assured them I would send them an amended return. I had the return amended by a tax accountant in Bangkok and the matter was settled and I didn't owe them anything. Actually, the IRS was very cordial about it all and helpful.

Recently (for tax year 2013)Turbo tax told me that they can extract all of my tax information from the brokerage I have my US assets with and all of the forms and little boxes Form 1040 and Sch B etc. will be filled in correctly. But when I do taxes, even with Turbo Tax, I fall into a kind of 'fear of math' syndrome. But I would definitely like to avoid the $475 accountant fee, which pretty high even by American standards. Death and taxes-the only two certainties. Once again JimGant, thanks for you advice and comments.

Taken from "The Car Connection"

And here are the deadliest countries with regard to just automobile accidents, along with the number of fatalities per 100,000 residents. Note that there's only one overlapping country, Malawi. ("Congo" refers to the Republic of the Congo, not the Democratic Republic of the Congo, which is a completely separate country.)

1. Namibia (45)
2. Thailand (44)
3. Iran (38)
4. Sudan (36)
5. Swaziland (36)
6. Venezuela (35)
7. Congo (34)
8. Malawi (32)
9. Dominican Republic (32)
10. Iraq (32)

I talked to a tax accountant in Bangkok and he recommended that when I file my 1040 Sch B I for 2013 I should include all dividends from my Thai mutual fund going back to when I opened the account-12 years ago. But I don't see the point. I think I will file a 1040 Sch B for the tax year 2013 only and include all interest and dividends for 2013 only. By the way, we are not talking about huge sums of money here and with the deductions I am allowed to declare I doubt I would owe anything anyway.

Well, in the low probability (but see later ref article) that the IRS should question your previous tax filings, correcting this oversight in a lump on your 2013 Form 1040 would go a long way in mitigating any serious penalties. And, as you say you might not even owe any taxes in 2013 (Filing jointly, two exemptions, AGI $20,000, or less -- $22,400, if both 65 or older), then, obviously, if this includes past Thai interest and dividends, including such is a no-brainer. And, if it does cost you something -- what's the insurance value of being able to show you made amends (albeit, in an unorthodox, non-interest paying fashion) when and if you get that letter from the Treasury Department?

Your accountant's suggestion falls into the "quiet disclosure" methodology for dealing with delinquent FBAR and foreign income reporting. However, the GAO is not amused:

GAO’s recommendations to the IRS include the mundane such as further education to the public about their reporting duties with respect to offshore assets. Of importance to those wondering about making a “quiet disclosure” or complying on a “prospective basis only,” GAO has told the IRS it should:

• Explore options for employing a methodology for identifying and pursuing potential quiet disclosures to provide more assurance that actual quiet disclosures are not being missed and then implement the best option.
• Conduct an analysis designed to measure the extent that taxpayers are reporting existing foreign accounts on the Form 1040, Schedule B or on FBARs for the “first time” and catch these taxpayers who are trying to circumvent taxes, interest, and penalties that would otherwise be owed.

The fact that GAO has told the IRS to examine the Schedule B is significant. The Schedule has the taxpayer check a box whether he has a foreign account. If it is being checked “yes” for the first time, but the taxpayer has lived and worked abroad for many years (as determined by prior tax filings) this will surely raise eyebrows. Information can also be cross-checked on Form 8938 regarding whether the asset being reported was acquired or closed in the current tax year.

See: http://americansabroad.org/issues/taxation/quiet-disclosures-jig/

That some filing "quiet disclosures" aren't even including past income will make it worse for them, should they get caught. And, while filing past income all on your 2013 Form 1040 isn't Kosher, it should, as said, provide some mitigation.

And the fact that you checked the "if filing late,why?" block -- will make you more interesting than other "quiet disclosure" folks.

Good luck.

This GAO stuff is a bit frightening. Also the Offshore Voluntary Disclosure Program (OVDP) acceptance letters where Americian citizens who haven't done their FBAR and who haven't been reporting overseas interest and other assets voluntarily report them to the IRS are now being revoked. Some of them anyway.

Let's Talk About: US Tax Doing a 180 — IRS Revokes Acceptance Into OVDP!)

My Thai income from interest and dividends for the past 12 years in Thailand doesn't even approach $15,000. And my Thai wife and I have filed with the IRS every year and I have always attached a Form 2555 for all my Thai income when I was working here. Even so, it is all a bit worrisome. I probably should have filed my 2013 tax returns first and then filed the FBAR just before June. I was going to do my taxes by myself using Turbo Tax but I might just pay the tax accountant his hefty fee ($475) and have him do my returns so it looks good and proper.

Well, I am hoping that since all of the income I have earned in the US and Thailand for the 25 years has been reported to the IRS with the exception of this Thai interest and these dividends that I will get by unscathed.

Do not forget to file for your thai wife if you have joint accounts.

Even if you have a house together, you must file her assets too.

Go now explain to your wife, she has to pay usa tax thanks to your nationality....

Have a wonderful evening.... :-D

Total nonsense. FBAR is not a tax form and Thai are not taxed unless they agree to such to file joint return and home ownership has nothing to do with tax payments.

That's what I thought. FBAR is not a tax form. And I don't think my Thai wife's little 17-year- old house in the middle of nowhere has any bearing on US taxes. Actually, I do file a joint account with my Thai wife. One reason being I get a bigger standard deduction. (She has a tax number from the IRS which allows one to file jointly).

I have just downloaded, completed and sent my first FBAR. I checked the 'I didn't know I had to report it' when asked why I was late.

Hmmmm. If it was your CY 2013 FBAR you filed, not sure why you had the option to check a reason for filing late -- since you have until June 30, 2014, to file the 2013 FBAR. Was the FBAR in question for an earlier period?

Since I have done my FBAR duty I assume I now have to include my Thai assets--bank interest and mutual fund dividends- with my 2013 tax returns with the IRS.

Yes, indeed. There are no 1099 data trail reports to trip you up, should you decide not to declare this income. But, as you've now filed a FBAR, you're in the radar coverage (minutely) for a companion income filing on Form 1040, Sch B.

I am not sure if I should just report them for the 2013 tax year as if nothing ever happened or if I should inform them that I have been innocently negligent and repent.

Was the FBAR at the beginning of this discussion for 2013? If yes, then, you've got a high probability that previous non disclosures of income will not be detected. That the FBAR programmers allowed you to answer "why you were filing late," when you actually are many months ahead of schedule, seems a product of sloppy programming. But, hey, maybe this is a clever ploy to uncover first time filers -- who should have filed previously.

Tons of discussion on options for delinquent FBAR filers. Have your glass full, if you decide to research them.file the 140 SSch B and include all the dividends for the last 10 years that I have owned the fund. O

This is the first time I have filed a FBAR so I assumed the "Why did you file late' might have meant, ' why haven't you been filing the FBAR for the last few years'. I talked to a tax accountant in Bangkok and he recommended that when I file my 1040 Sch B I for 2013 I should include all dividends from my Thai mutual fund going back to when I opened the account-12 years ago. But I don't see the point. I think I will file a 1040 Sch B for the tax year 2013 only and include all interest and dividends for 2013 only. By the way, we are not talking about huge sums of money here and with the deductions I am allowed to declare I doubt I would owe anything anyway. But I felt now that I have complied with the FBAR stuff I should include a 1040 Sch B. I am going to try to do my returns with Turbo tax but even filing with them seems like a daunting task.

By the way Jim Grant, I appreciate the time you have taken to respond to my posts. They are very helpful and encouraging. Do you do you own tax returns? Thanks again.

I have just downloaded, completed and sent my first FBAR. I checked the 'I didn't know I had to report it' when asked why I was late. I still find it amazing how many expats in Thailand I meet, ranging from poverty stricken to those making serious money who not only do not FBAR but don't even file their tax returns with the IRS. Most have never heard of FBAR. Possibly one reason is that many of them have no intention of ever returning to the USA.

Since I have done my FBAR duty I assume I now have to include my Thai assets--bank interest and mutual fund dividends- with my 2013 tax returns with the IRS. I have never reported them before. I am not sure if I should just report them for the 2013 tax year as if nothing ever happened or if I should inform them that I have been innocently negligent and repent.

I say, FILE.

I ignored the filing requirement for about 5 years and IRS caught up with me.

Lots of interest and penalties plus the cost of an accountant.

Learned my lesson and file every year.

Could you elaborate a bit more? Thanks

I mentioned in a previous post that, despite having lived and worked in Thailand for the past 17 years, I have never "FBARD" and have never declared my Thai interest and dividends from my Thai mutual funds when I file my returns every year with the IRS. I do report my Thai income from the company I work for on the 2555 foreign income exclusion form, I have only just heard about the FBAR a month ago and until recently, my Thai interest and dividends never amounted to very much so I never declared them. I called an American accountant in Bangkok and explained my situation. I told him I now have well over $30,000 in assets in Thailand in joint accounts with my Thai wife(she has a tax number issued by the IRS) I explained that most of our savings are in the US. I told him I was worried and fearful of being subject to a big fine. He asked me if I have filed with the IRS every year and I assured him I have filed every year since I was 17. He asked me if I have ever owed the IRS taxes. I told him I have not. He then said if you declare your Thai interest and dividends this for on your 2013 returns and FBAR, I should be OK and nothing will 'probably' happen to me considering that I have been filing my tax returns with the IRS for the last 45 years. He suggested that I declare all of the dividends that I have earned since owning the Thai mutual funds(we have owned them since 2001).

He also said that he believes the Bank of Thailand is now reporting to the US Treasury then names of Americans with more than $10,000 in their Thai accounts. I can't begin to imagine how this information is being transfered. We have a few bank accounts going back to 1995. None of the banks have my social security number and some don't even have my new passport number. I do remember last year when I opened a savings account with Siam Commercial Bank that they asked me many more questions than I have ever been asked before when opening a bank account and they put this information into their computer.

On another note, I just received an email from the American Investment/Brokerage company that I have my savings with and they told me I must change my Thai address to an American address and if it is not done by the end of March of this year they will liquidate my account. They claimed that the US government was making it too difficult for them to comply with all the new rules and paper work regarding accounts with foreign addresses. I think my country is becoming a monster.

Since we are on the topic of taxes, I was in a pub in Jomthien last night and there were a number of Americans sitting at the bar, most of who are working in Thailand. I brought up the subject of taxes, the IRS and FBAR. I was amazed at the indifference and lack of concern they displayed regarding the IRS and American taxes. One expat said he transfers his money from his US bank through the Bangkok Bank in NY so he doesn't have to FBAR. Another expat said he hasn't filed his US tax forms in five years All of his money is in Thailand. Another said he is retired and is over 72 years of age and no longer has to file with the IRS. Two expats I work with have no idea what FBAR is and never delcare their interest from Thai banks or dividends and capital gains from their Thai stocks and mutual funds when they file with the IRS. Some of these expats work in the oil industry and you know they are earning serious money, unlike myself.

I am not sure they would. But since Americans are now required to file their foreign bank accounts with FBAR my guess is that FBAR will want to know how long these accounts have been held. In which case the IRS could easily find out. Like I said, I am going to talk to a certified accountant in Bangkok, explain my situation, give him all my Thai bank account and mutual fund information, incur the fee and have him do my taxe returns for 2013. Maybe I am getting worried over nothing. I had a serious problem a few years ago with the IRS because I didn't report some stock transactions in the US correctly. It was quite a stiff fine they said I owed them but a tax accountant in Bangkok went over all of my tax forms and resubmitted them. I also included a long letter of apology. I ended up not owing them anything and was no longer liable for the fine. I was very relieved. The accountant said the IRS will often use scare tactics to get people of their butts and fill out their tax returns correctly and include ALL their income, no matter what the source.

I have been living /working in Thailand for more than 12 years and have 3 Thai bank accounts (joint accounts with my Thai wife.) and a Thai mutual fund. The total does not exceed anywhere near $50,000. Most of our savings are in the US and I file with the IRS every year but I have never declared our Thai assets or interests or dividends. I file the form 2555 for the foreign earned income exclusion. I have never declared my Thai bank account interest or mutual fund dividends because it seemed so little at the time and I thought the IRS would never know anyway and filing it seemed tedious. But the accounts have grown quite a bit over the last 12 years. In other words, I was careless and lazy. So I am going to declare everything when I file with the IRS for the 2013 tax year and I will also file that FBAR thing. I am wondering if the IRS will ask me why I never filed my Thai interest and dividend income before the 2013 tax year. Because apparently they will now know that I have had these Thai assets for the last 12 years but have never declared them. I could very well be subject to a fine. I am hoping they will let it pass or they won't notice that I am only just now declaring them now (wishful thinking I know). I think I am going to have a certified tax accountant in Bangkok do my 2013 income tax returns and I am hoping he can suggest some viable but not costly options. I am sure they have come across similar situations. I know many Americans who don't declare their Thai bank account interest or other Thai assets when they file their IRS tax returns. I guess those days are over.

Any comments.

http://www.thailawforum.com/blog/us-expats-on-alert-new-us-tax-law-extends-irs%E2%80%99-reach-internationally

AN interesting read regarding this topic.

I have three banlk accounts in Thailand and have had them for more than 12 years. Two of them are joint accounts with my Thai wife. The sum total of the three accounts is about 900,000 Baht. We also have a mutual fund with Krung Sri which is presently worth about 800,000 Baht. It also pays fairly high dividends almost every year.I have never reported any of this to the IRS or FBAR.I just never thought about it because, until recently, the money in these accounts was so little. I only report my savings in the US. After reading all of these posts, I am getting a little paranoid so I am going to have a certified account to do my income tax forms and report my Thai holdings for the 2013 tax year just to be sure. They can usually find ways around delinquint reporting.I had a problem with the IRS about three years ago and they can be relentless. They are a law unto themselves. But with the help of a tax accountant I was able to reslove the issue.

Any comments.

The last 2 weeks have begun a disturbing trend at Pai Yoon Beach near the Milford Condo in Ban Chang. Last week there were five days of extremely loud music from live bands playing on the beach. The music seemed to begin around 7PM and lasted until well after midnight. I am talking about super loud. I live in an apartment on the beach more than a half a kilometer from the area where the bands perform and I had to close my door and all my windows and it was still thunderously loud. Last night there was a similar scene with a band playing very loud music until quite late in the evening. I few years back these concerts were a regular occurrence but after numerous complaints by local residents, both Thai and expats they were stopped, I was told, by local government officials and the police. I feel sorry for the residents who live much closer to the music than I do. Some have to get up very early in the morning for their jobs. Some families have young children who need their sleep not to mention sick people who need their rest. And the guests staying at nearby hotels have a right to peace and quiet, as we all do, especially after 8-9 PM. Anyone sabotaging the amplifiers.

This Thursday, Dec. 5th, is the king's Birthday and the I know the bars do not sell booze and most are closed but I was wondering if I'll be able to have a few cold ones when I go out to eat a restaurant in Pattaya or Jomthien.

Anyone know if Highway 304 from Chonburi to Korat is flooded? Particularly as it passes through Kabinburi and the mountains of Wan Nam Kheo? I am planning to drive to Korat today and then on to Buriram but some Thais at work told me some roads could be closed along the way. Might detour through Sa Keow.

I want to drive to Buriram from Highway 304 from Rayong. I usually cut across 359 from 304 and then turn left at Wathanakhorn in Sa Kaew but last week the roads in Sa Kaew were inundated with flood water. I am wondering if it's reasonably safe or convenient to drive on the roads in that part of the country. It's hard to get information about the condition of the roads and the level of flooding. Has anyone been driving in that area?

Where is it?

I found it. What a relief. Thanks for your advice.