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DagonKhan
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Posts posted by DagonKhan
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Sorry, I should have elaborated above that I'm now looking to extend an irrigation canal. Initially I had been told that the water was unsuitable, there were question marks about the salinity of the water that I've since discovered were unfounded. Basically I'm looking to dig a loooong ditch and build a small road with the spoils! Valid points about the borehole, there is no way that a 4" borehole would produce enough water.Something missing: do you know the max sustainable flow rate achievable from the current well/borehole? Sustainable I mean - max that can be lifted without having to stop or slow the pump to allow the well/bore to [re]fill?
Indeed. I read your borehole thread with interest. The borehole idea scares me quite frankly, I'd rather throw a few thousand dollars at an irrigation ditch and use that as a source. The cost of drilling the boreholes and the cost of running the pumps (not to mention buying them) justifies the cost of getting a back hoe in for a couple of weeks.Putting aside the points raised so far (by yourself and others in reply - all of which are quite valid) I can't help but think however you look at this project, the one thing that you are going to have to look into is that 50% diesel pumping expense - and that means a larger and deeper well to sustain higher flow rates, cheaper pumping costs, less mainatenance, less time spent pumping etc etc .......
I'm glad you raised that! I read one of your posts where you put up some photos of a large orange coloured pump that was pto driven. I believe (not really sure) that is was something like these ones? :- http://www.crisafulli.com/images/brochures...%20ranchers.pdf (It's a 8Mb download I'm afraid). The website for that is here:- http://www.crisafulli.comThen start making machinary choices i.e. the largest pto pump your new well will sustain the flow of (and that you can afford), a tractor sized to drive that pump, now "tools" (i.e. disc plough and whatever else you want) matched to the tractor.Maizefarmer, apart from that link above I have totally failed to find out anything about pto powered pumps! I would dearly love to learn more but I'm at a loss to find anything.
You know I'm not going to disagree with you there!Spreadsheets are great, sadly though in respect of farming they seldom scale up with much degree of accuracy
I'm trying to be as accurate as possible because naturally I feel I need to get some idea of what I'm doing and where it's likely to take me.I'm glad you popped in, I've read a great many of your previous posts with great interest. Always happy to get input!
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The problem with windmills and solar is that they just don't deliver. I am of course referring to quantity here. I've looked into both and as a long term investment they have their advantages but when I calculate the investment required I always end up coming back to diesel. I wish that weren't the case! If I end up becoming far more involved in this (than I probably should!Have you considered installing a "windmill"? And putting in a small pond to store the water? For the times when the wind isn't blowing you also use a small electric pump just below the mechanical pump. A quick Internet search had a 18 foot high one at around $10K US depending where you buy it from and all the extras. 10 footer half as much. And I think you can even drill the well with it using attachments. Just a suggestion. Good luck. ), then yes I would revisit the idea.
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Hi Jerry,
Interesting to hear what you have to say about the pumps.
I remain quite convinced that a genset is a viable option as far as fuel economy goes. I have several gensets that I use for "prime" power here in Myanmar, the local electricity supply is awful or non existant! The one in the picture below sits outside my house (the chain is to prevent thieves from nicking the battery as well as parts, that's quite common here!
):-You can find the specs to that here:- http://www.denyo.co.jp/english/products/pdf/da-6000ss.pdf
I use it when they cut the electric here to power a split unit aircon, fridge, TV & Satellite and my PC which it powers no problems at all. I used to have a small three phase 25Kva here in it's place that would power the whole house but I moved that as I needed it for something else. As you can see from the specs it uses 2.1 litres of diesel per hour at 100% load which is 5.5Kva. I can tell you that I don't use 2.1 l/hr here at home, it's less than that, but I've used the maximum figure in my calculations as I like to err on the side of caution.
In my 'real' business I use a whole load of pumps and I have access to Pedrollo pumps out here. I can power three Pedrollo HFm 6BR pumps with that genset, each pump which will shift 1000-1100 litres per minute with a head of 5-7 metres. Each pump is rated at 1500W. Essentially I can pump ((3000 litres x 60 mins) x 3 pumps) 540,000 litres/hour of water and use just 2.1 litres (maximum) of diesel to achieve that.I've decided to start by mapping the land area first, for this I'm using Google Earth believe it or not! It gives me the rough layout and is surprisingly accurate if you use the measurement feature (I've checked a few measurements with a 100m measuring tape reel). I've drawn up a sketch based on that and I've recently ordered an automatic optical level, a Topcon ATG6. I will then survey the land to ascertain the levels of the particular fields and irrigation canals. The irrigation canals out here are tidal, I have a managed to get hold of the tide tables, that will help me calculate depth as well. I went out there just last Thursday and they're busy transplanting paddy at the moment (about 90% complete, they'll be finished by now). I couldn't help but notice how uneven the fields were, the eye deceives! This will then help me decide how deep and where I need to extend the irrigation canals. I've had a quote for a backhoe based on a daily rate, problem is I'm not quite sure what I want until my survey is complete. I do of course have a rough idea. All of this is because of water! I need to ensure I have enough water available to pump and I want the fields as level as possible to minimise the pumping. I'm estimating that I will need around 22,000 to 35,000 litres/day/acre for paddy and I will need to irrigate 20 acres. Even if I find that I'm pushing the genset with 3 pumps and I have to run 2 instead, I can comfortably achieve that. I also totally agree with what you said about starting the pumps up at different times.
The Pedrollo pumps I expect to cost me around US$800 a piece, the genset I have, that cost US$4500. I should point out that this genset is designed for residential use with the acoustic canopy etc. It would be much cheaper for me to purchase an open type and rig it up in a simple "hut" in which to house it, but I'm going to use what I have first!
There will of course be a cost for cabling and switchgear, US$500 will cover that easily, most of it will be for the cable.Like you, the nearest electricity supply is not so close, I've just checked on Google Earth and it's approx. 2 km away in my case. I could go and erect concrete poles and pay to be connected, that would mean at least a 3 year wait for them to get off their <deleted> and do something and at least US$5,000 from my pocket. I would then end up getting electricity for 4 hours per day as it is rationed out there. No thanks!
I appreciate the cost for the tractors and implements, this website has been wonderful in helping me fill in a lot of blank spaces. I appreciate that.
Interesting link pumpuiman. I remain a little skeptical about these sort of initiatives, it would be interesting to hear from someone that has first hand experience.
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Apologies for grave digging!
I was wondering how you got on Gary? Did you find a solution to your problem?
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Pseacraft,
That Kubota link that you have provided is a gem! I don't read Thai, but I can get a pretty good idea as they have pictures and prices. It answers a whole load of "other" questions regarding prices that I was thinking about asking you guys!
Interesting link with regards to the solar powered pumps. I fear that even their highest capacity system wouldn't come close to providing enough water though, but interesting nonetheless. Pumps is clearly something I need to some serious research on!
You read my mind about the harvesting.
Everyone I spoke to told me that they get in a "gang" who harvests the fields for them, here's one of the guys harvesting their field:-I printed out some pictures from some of the websites of harvesters and showed them to a few of the local farmers, they had never seen them before! They had seen tractors and the implements they use, but they had never seen them working. Apparently there is a large state owned farm about a couple of hours drive away where they have as many as 30 tractors, but no harvesters. I may take a drive one day to see if I can't see what they're using. Nine times out of ten, whatever the Government does here is hugely inefficient though, not sure I would want to base my ideas on their business model!
With all the useful information regarding prices and sizes etc. it gives me the ability to put it all down on paper and see what my options are, I appreciate the help with that.
Cheers!
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Interesting comparison. As I mentioned above, it is regarded as an excellent result here, I could easily contrast that with one farmer, about a mile away from where they are, who only managed 120 baskets on 5 acres. He used no fertiliser at all and didn't pump much water, he spent a quarter of what they spent on 1 acre over his 5 acres, hardly any water pumped at all. (I doubt they get as much for their crop as you do! Prices here are pretty low as far as I can make out, 100 baskets (2,090Kg) fetched US$278 (about Bt.9200) from their local rice mill. If they had of sold it 2 months later they could have realised US$300. This was back in April this year. Prices for monsoon paddy are about 30-50% higher.)That is a great yield your family is getting.Here's a picture of the crop a few weeks (I'm guessing 2 or 3 weeks if memory serves me correctly) before they harvested it:-
Point taken, I guess I would have to investigate the flow rates from these wells as well. Interesting point you make about choosing the correct pump according to the depth, I wasn't aware there were different types. Generators are very common out here, I have a small diesel powered one that will give out 5Kva. I've been looking at my submersible pump (it's not a huge one, just a little 2" one, 0.75Kw) and I see that I could power about 5 of them with such a generator. Now I doubt very much doubt that would be enough to irrigate 20 acres, but what if I scaled it up and used bigger pumps? Three phase gensets are easy enough to come by, you can hire them very easily and I have means to transport one. I see a cost for cabling, but I can do that myself.Water will be the biggest problem. Shallow dug wells are normally not that strong and many go dry during the dry season. Bore holes are not really that dependable either and if they are deep, it takes a good pump to draw the water up. Small self priming pumps powered by the iron buffalo are the most efficient method but you have to be careful to choose those that are designed for the depth of the bore hole.Is there any guidelines you could give me on how many litres/gallons per rai/acre you pump and how often you pump? This obviously depends on the land, but the evaporation I would imagine to be reasonably constant?
Finding labour certainly wouldn't be a problem, you're correct on that. The iron buffalos that you see here at the local market (I've spent quite some time looking at these already) are all powered by Chinese engines (about US$1,500 without any attachments). All of the farmers I have talked to have told me that these engines need to be rebuilt every year, reliability appears to be an issue with them. I've recently learnt that there are Japanese iron buffalo's on the market apparently, I haven'y come across any just yet. So you're talking around US$22,000 for a larger tractor? What sort of price do the various implements cost?It sounds like you can find enough labor so I'd forget about a larger tractor. A larger tractor will cost somewhere around 700,000 baht. You can buy ten iron buffaloes for that price. The new generation are very fuel efficient and nearly bulletproof. A large diesel pumping station is also worthless if there is not enough water to pump.I'm tempted to do the first year with 20 acres without purchasing much at all, hire equipment if needs be. I want to see if the results they achieved above can really be replicated and the only way I'm going to find that out is if I actually do it. They did tell me that the majority of the diesel they purchased was for the water pump, I need to think about that some more.
I appreciate that information Thaipak. This leads me on to another question, is it better to have two smaller tractors or just one big one? I'm thinking fuel economy and working more efficiently, as well as breakdowns etc.I think you have got a very good yield as compare to Thailand. New Small Kabuta 80 HP tractors (about 300000 baht) are being made and marketed in Thailand by SIAM CEMENT GROUP. They are two wheels and four wheels as well (parts are available easily). You may add many attachments with them, as a matter of fact we have it here in Khon Kaen and use it on our farm which is quite handy in all seasons. I spray chelated fertilizer on rice after booting stage and use the same tractor for spray. It is good and user friendly. Try one in a shop and see for yourself. There are people who import / export with Mynamar and can deliver u as well. -
I would be interested to learn of any trade fairs coming up that showcase agricultural machinery. Any on the horizon?
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There's no protection under the law at all.
Spot on! Even if you're a Myanmar citizen there are no guarantees. If the military want it, they will take it. Ask any Myanmar who had property along Shwedagon Pagoda Road or up at 8 mile, even now they've moved up to Naypyidaw they still can't get it back.
If you trust Serge Pun and are prepared to buy at Pun Hlaing then fair enough, I wouldn't personally. There are no guarantees on your 60 year lease there.....
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I'll come clean from the outset and tell you that I'm not a farmer! I don't live in Thailand either, I live across the border in Myanmar. Now that we've got that out of the way.... down to business!
The wife's family has around 80 acres of land which they use for growing paddy during the monsoon. The rest of the year the land lies fallow. There is a very low level of mechanisation and the 80 acres includes "extended family" with one family member owning 50 acres of it. It will come as no surprise to many of you that money is the primary reason. It is too expensive for them to buy fertiliser and diesel for the water pumps to irrigate the paddy's.
What's interesting is that this land (all 80 acres of it) is up for grabs by anyone who wishes to farm it during the dry season. There is no rent to pay, all they ask is that you plow it before the monsoon paddy is planted. Naturally if you require their labour to help plant/harvest the crop you have to pay for it, that choice is up to you. (In actual fact it is not just this 80 acres, any of the neighbouring farmers will gladly do the same). I suspect this in itself may raise a few eyebrows, so let me explain further; all land here essentially belongs to the State, farmers merely have a "permit" to farm that land. If an individual approaches the authorities and informs them that Mr. XYZ is not using his land to its full potential and he/she will, the authorities will confiscate the land and give the individual who will work it the permit instead. It's a pretty nasty way of doing things and I have no intention of going down that route! In any event the farmers are more than happy, especially if you use fertiliser as they believe a residual amount of it will be left and that will benefit their monsoon paddy. Acres and acres of unused paddy land:-
This year a younger couple (part of the family) decided to grow some paddy during the dry season on just 1 acre (2.5 Rai?
). I went along to see how they were getting along close to harvest time, it was then that I learnt about what I have written above. They used fertiliser and they managed to get 100 baskets of rice. The seed stock was local seed from last years harvest. 1 basket here equates to 20.9Kg, not sure if they sell it like this over in Thailand. By local standards that was an excellent result.Sometime later after they had harvested their crop and had sold it I asked them if they would share with me their costs etc., they did. I have since drawn up a spreadsheet. Their biggest cost by far was diesel, it accounted for just over 50% of their total investment which was followed by fertiliser which accounted for 30%. The majority of the diesel was used for powering a water pump to irrigate the field, the source of the water is a mixture of shallow hand dug wells (about 3 metres deep) and boreholes:-
But they also used an iron buffalo (they have a rotary tiller attachment for this):-
They also have a whole load of cows and buffalo's that they use, on the 80 acres there are only 2 iron buffalo's.
I've been discussing this with the wife and we're keen to have a go. We're not farmers and we would rely on the family to provide that expertise. The planting would be done by hand as they normally do, as would the harvesting. I'm thinking about 20 acres to start with, the investment is modest (around US$200-250/acre) and I can walk away from it if it all goes wrong!
But I've been looking at it again and I'm asking myself whether or not I should investigate further the use of modern machinery. I've been reading several threads on these forums about people who have bought small Kubota and Yanmar tractors, I've also been reading threads about harvesters. It is very common here for people to rent things off each other, if I needed to, I could do that.
What you see in the pictures above is the actual land I'm talking about. The soil I would describe as predominantly clay (and as you may be able to make out from the first photo), it is rock hard during the dry season! Get it wet and I'm worried I will be telling tales of woe similar to some of the ones I've seen on this forum of tractors sinking into the mud!
Questions:
1) If you were going to be farming 20 acres (50 rai?
) of paddy, what size tractor would you be looking at?2) If you were going to farm more than 20 acres, at what point (in acres or rai) would you need to upgrade your tractor? (Is there some sort of unofficial formula where "x" acres = "x" Hp?)
3) I can imagine a (tine) ripper of some description would be needed to break up the soil first, how much do they cost?
4) Implements; the iron buffalo they use only has a rotary tiller, they use buffalo to pull a single plough, What implements would be necessary? I'm guessing a plough of some description, a dozer blade for levelling/building levees and a rotary tiller. Any pointers on cost?
5) Are PTO powered water pumps more efficient than standalone diesel pumps? Electric is not an option.
6) What increase in yield could you expect if you were using a harvester? It strikes me that what they're doing now is horribly inefficient.
7) What size harvester would you need?
8) If I were to purchase either a harvester or a tractor (or both) in Thailand, can I get training? Or would it be easier to pay someone from Thailand to come over here for a couple of weeks?
Any replies would be much appreciated!
A couple of minor points:- Any equipment or machinery imported here must be new, they won't issue import permits otherwise. I can handle the paperwork and shipment this end, I can even arrange for machinery to be collected in Thailand if needs be. I regularly fly over to Thailand and spare parts need to be available in Bangkok. It's quite easy to get things sent over the border from Thailand (but it takes time). I can also buy other bits and pieces from Singapore if needs be (but that takes even longer!). There are many Yanmar and Kubota engines over here in generating sets, spare parts are relatively easy to come by.
I'm trying to be as accurate as possible because naturally I feel I need to get some idea of what I'm doing and where it's likely to take me.
Mechanising A Paddy Farm
in Farming in Thailand Forum
Posted
This also comes back to sizing equipment like tractors (talking about pumps), I can't see a need for a huge tractor. Right now I'm thinking that the Kubota L3408 or the L4508 would be more than sufficient for the various tasks at hand. If a tiny genset can (theoretically) deliver the water I require, these tractors should have more than enough power!