dhrobertson

Australian press now expressing opinions:-

http://bit.ly/9eteUe

What a load of tripe!

There are rules to bring the situation back to normal. The unarmed civilians are criminals. The police and military are trying to protect public property and their rule is: Don't torch or destroy it and stay away from zones that we created to disengage clashing people/forces and bring back a calm situation.

The thugs ignore those orders. So they are shot at, as announced by the military. No Excuse.

It is the red leaders' fault not to distance themselves from those criminals in the first place. They allowed them in, now they cannot control them. They even think that their destructive behavior is good for the cause.

Never in history have riots like this one brought about a sustainable improvement of a situation.

I think you all live in a dream world, or you are too preoccupied with tit-for-tat revenge and hatred to see the big picture.

This is not a revolution where 2,000,000 people demand justified change - this is a riot instigated by a frustrated, revenge-seeking billionaire who manages to drag along narrow-minded "leaders of the poor" who promise their supporters a paradise in Thailand by getting rid of the elite. They are so blind that they do not even realize that ALL their supporters in the background are just another rich elite, waiting for the cake to be split up between them.

I know real leaders of the poor, such as Krutee Roigaew of Chiang Rai. He and his team have managed to bring change to communities in the North - unarmed, using existing laws, uniting people peacefully for their cause and by creating an understanding of their wishes (with authorities). And guess what - it works, slowly, but it works.

Riots and hardline views are tools that only create resistance. The reds should clean up the mess out in their home-provinces first before going to BKK and creating trouble there.

95% of you folks who blast your unrealistic views into the air in this forum neither speak the language, nor have they worked for many years in Thailand or have a clear picture of what was going on during Thaksins rule. You only know the 30-Baht scheme. And the pointless throwing away of a million Baht for every Tumbon, a measure which has brought nothing to sustainably improve communities. Wow. You have no clue how vote-buying worked, how opposition leaders were removed, TV-Channels were taken over by eliminating critical journalists, tax-money used to finance projects of his firms, expensive short-term measures ntroduced in rural areas but with no follow-up mainenance of the projects, lawyers killed for acting against land-grabs by Thaksins cronies, etc, etc...

Live, learn and look around for a little longer before you decide if you really support that.

Well said, sir!

There have been a few suggestion that armoured vehicles should be used. Consider this; tanks are equipped with a main gun (more or less light artillery) which fires an explosive round which makes a M-79 look like a kiddies toy. Both tanks and many APCs also carry quite heavy machine-guns.

Tomas' wall was pierced by a rifle bullet. Heavy calibre machine-guns will do a he-ll of a lot worse. Like Tomas, there are other residents still in their homes.

Neither the residents or the gov't want to see the start of wholesale slaughter, so leave the armour in the bases until it is time for an assault on the barriers.

In these situations, an approaching tank is a more of a psychological weapon (it scares the crap out of people), you don't actually have to start using the main gun.

A suggestion to anyone near the combat zone. Draw your curtains on the side nearest the fighting and if possible, hang blankets over the windows. It might sound silly, but a hanging heavy cloth can absorb most or all the KE of a bullet.

The whole point about tanks is not the main gun. The fact is that they are track laying vehicles and would not notice the barricades. I don't know if armoured bulldozers are available.

two things about Armored Vehicles:

1- Some are not track laying but with tyres, as some experts of this forum have already explained, they can be stopped by razor wires

2- Eastern Europe experience: in street fighting, battle tanks (Except few models) are easily converted in "frying pans' with cocktail molotov or gasoline bottles thrown, once the leaders are blocked it is useless except if you do not hesitate to destroy properties around for making your way. In the current situation, the account of deaths will be very heavy on both sides.

As must be obvious, I know nothing of military matters!

However, "track laying vehicles" was the point. It seems remarkably easy to stop APCs. Are Moletov cocktails still effective against modern tanks? No idea!

From a laymans point of view, it would seem that demolition of the barriers on a broad front would be a good move.

Also, I would run a mile from a tank.

By the way, is it correct that helicopters are considered beyond the pale because of the way they were used in the 90s?

I don't think you can say 'most' people back what the military are doing, it's 51% of the facists who are registered on HERE. The people who make up this figure are more than likely to be white, male and people who have never experienced REAL poverty in their lives. They call the reds 'terrorists' when they are just normal people fighting for what they believe in. Yes, they are getting paid, so what? It's a small amount and since they had to leave their homes for a long time they need money to survive. YES, there are women and children and elderly people in the camp, i've seen it with my own eyes, for them to be there it just shows how fed up they are with their lives. How can anyone condone shooting innocent people? MANY farangs are pro red shirt and this shocks and DISGUSTS me, but it's not surprising as most of the farangs who live out here are male and everything 'ist' and 'ic' under the sun to include racist, chauvinist, homophobic, facist PIGS. It's they who should be rounded up and shot.

What tosh!

Most people here have sympathy for the Thai poor. I have family in Isaan, I know.

Problem is that the red shirts had no idea what exactly they wanted to improve their lot.

This has now gone past protest. It is a REBELLION.

These people need to go home.

Any government's first responsibility is defence of the realm. This is what's happening.

I can assure you if this was London, the SAS would have de-capitated the mob and the whole thing would have been cleared up very quickly indeed.

I am not a racist , a bit chavinist, I don't care for poofs, I am certainly not a facist. However, if you saw the splendid fat boy's breakfast I had today then porcine is probably reasonable.

There have been a few suggestion that armoured vehicles should be used. Consider this; tanks are equipped with a main gun (more or less light artillery) which fires an explosive round which makes a M-79 look like a kiddies toy. Both tanks and many APCs also carry quite heavy machine-guns.

Tomas' wall was pierced by a rifle bullet. Heavy calibre machine-guns will do a he-ll of a lot worse. Like Tomas, there are other residents still in their homes.

Neither the residents or the gov't want to see the start of wholesale slaughter, so leave the armour in the bases until it is time for an assault on the barriers.

In these situations, an approaching tank is a more of a psychological weapon (it scares the crap out of people), you don't actually have to start using the main gun.

A suggestion to anyone near the combat zone. Draw your curtains on the side nearest the fighting and if possible, hang blankets over the windows. It might sound silly, but a hanging heavy cloth can absorb most or all the KE of a bullet.

The whole point about tanks is not the main gun. The fact is that they are track laying vehicles and would not notice the barricades. I don't know if armoured bulldozers are available.

This is latest tweet from BBC journo Alastair Leithead looks like the army haven't finished shooting paramedics yet.

this cannot be from a responsible journalist.

Who said Leithead was a responsible journalist?

Alistair lightweight more like

video: red shirt protester shot in foot as he tries to set truck on fire. This goes in the face of reports that snipers firing only to kill.

Great shot and then he was allowed to hobble away.

http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-444833

Brilliant.

What a perfectly measured response!

I hope everyone reads the Editorial in the Bangkok Post by Voranai Vanijaka

At last.......the truth......we can only hope and pray that they listen

I really do not understand the policy of not posting articles from another popular English language newspaper.

As a result, I have to go and buy it instaed of The Nation.

The article quote is a must read!

Google are sponsering these terrorists with google ads on their website, we can stop them from using this forum, just report this link to google and spread the word to the media that goolge supports these thugs, they will be stopped and fall into worldwide isolation.

http://www.saedang.freeforums.org

One can also go to http://www.freeforums.org/contact.php and write a complaint. Their legal section clearly states that their forums are not to be used for these type of things. While I support the freedom of speech, I do not support terroristic activities which this site is spewing.

i have done both, i urge others to do the same.

Done.

Done

This is the demonstration of what I have stated already several times : Militias are unacceptable in democratic Countries: it brings the level of violence to the highest during social unrests. More it can jeopardise the future of a Country. And if my numerous american friend of this forum continue to think about more tough and military actions, just remember Mogadishio, Somalia.... Militias are a Cancer (Yellows, Newin, Pattayas, Ronin...any militia)

In case of crushing the reds, you should see the consequences on the economy: Spain during Franco period, has been sulked during years in spite marketing efforts. most of europeans avoiding Spain as tourist destination and spanish products.

Anything which can bring Parties to the table of negotiation without conditions is welcome.

Quite true the Reds have created an illegal militia and are using it to try and bring down the government.

This is of course unacceptable. And the level of force they have is beyond the powers of police to control.

That the PTP opposition party is check and jowl with the red leaders, and sharing stages while the most

virulent lies being told. This shows they are utterly compromised and incapable of legitimate governance.

They have shot off both feet up to the knees.

-------------------

PS Jerry, sulked is not the right word to use.

You have used it twice recently, but it doesn't fit your point.

I know english is not your first language.

<h2 class="me">sulk –verb (used without object)</h2>1. to remain silent or hold oneself aloof in a sullen, ill-humored, or offended mood:

Promise me that you won't sulk if I want to leave the party early.

–noun2. a state or fit of sulking. 3. sulks, ill-humor shown by sulking: to be in the sulks. 4. Also, sulker. a person who sulks.

Spain has not been sitting like a child that didn't get some candy....

Try:

'Spain during (or since) the Franco period, had been "avoided / ignored / marginalized / diminished /

during years in spite marketing efforts...'

But, I think more recently the issue for travelers has been the Basques bombing indescriminately.

Illegal militias again... And note Spain and France's responce to them has not been unviolent; no choice.

And the Islamic train bomb a few years back too.

Franco from 40 years back is not near the issue it used to be, except to old people,

but his tenure DID greatly retard Spain's progress relative to Europe.

Thanks Animatic for your help on the language part : I will say Spain has been marginalised during Franco reign".

However, Spain is a very nice Country, I have a spanish ancestor several generations ago, I can speak and read spanish (a little) and I have been working there during a couple of years. I disagree on your interpretation of the Basque issue: it is in fact very parallel to the Southern unrest. Basques have their own language which is classified as "turco Altaic", same group than Turkish, Finnish, and Korean, Japanese (derivative of Korean) languages. So, People very different from most of Spanish (latin language), and maybe you do not know, but Basques are also living in the area of Bayonne, Biarritz in France, the Basques are present on both sides of the Border. Similar situation than Malays in Southern Thailand.

More the unrest has started when the Basque Parliament has lost some prerogatives in a Centralisation attempt by Madrid Government. (Still a similarity with Southern unrest). In France, because there has been a policy of assimilation, the unrest is limited to a very small group.

That is the reason why France and Spain has common issues with the Basques. But the effect on tourism and industry are limited. Because the Eastern (Barcelona to Malaga) coastline and Southwest coast (Sevilla to Gilbraltar) are the main spanish touristic areas.

Basque area is not so developped.

In any case, the Basque issue is loosing steam progressively. It is much more similar to the Southern unrest than to the red Shirt one.

It's true that certain regimes caused their county's products to be boycotted. However I doubt that this will happen to Thailand.

Of course I woulkd like to see more equality in Thailand.

However, the reds can no longer be treated as demonstrators. This is a rebellion.

What happens when there is a rebellion? The government must crush it quickly and completely with overwhelming force. If not you have anarchy. There have been more thyan enough warnings. Now is the time for tanks.

This used to be a good information site with good views and posts... Now all I mostly see is crap posts and how they deserve this and they deserve that....Very few seem to be even slightly sorry that THESE PEOPLE ARE BEING KILLED... for mostly nothing more than being in the wrong place or choosing to have an opinion and standing up for it ... I REPEAT THEY DO NOT DESERVE TO DIE... They deserve LIFE, nothing less it is the so called government who have ordered the army in and started killing in big numbers indiscriminately. The Killing MUST stop and the army pull back this is a sledgehammer to crack a nut and cannot be justified.

This is not accidental shootings mostly this is pre targeted sniper fire ... these people are being assassinated in front of the world and all most of you can do is talk shit about them probably being terrorists or criminals and how inconvenient it is for everyone etc...

Shame on most of you for your apathetic and inhumane attitudes, you make me sick pretending to sit on your moral high ground.... every one of you has a dodgy government not to mention your faults and im sure plenty of you are betraying their other halves etc so spare us the holy insight of what the protesters deserve you bunch of rubberneckers....

I am afraid, sir, that you are wrong on all counts. I suggest you sit down and have a nice cup of tea.

"Stop shooting, retreat and we can then negotiate," Natthawut said. Asked by a journalist why he was not ordering the red shirts to stop attacking first, he angrily retorted: "The killers must stop. You cannot possibly expect those being hunted to stop killing. It's as if the red shirts have been abandoned alone in the world."

Derrr, do you think that might be because the redshirts are in the minority and because of the actions they have taken???

The reality is the Red Shirts have the backing of the rural population.

Probably 80% of Thai's support the revolution.

That's a fact!

I'd like to know why my previous post citing this board member as a liar was removed. Is it TV policy to allow the posting of lies but not to allow pointing out the fact what is posted is a lie? I hate liars.

I would GUESS (there are no opinion poles available) that support is about 50:50 in Isaan. Of course 100% of people everywhere want to be better off. However there is a swing against the violence of the reds, it goes against the culture here. Also, a majority of Thais favour the army, unlike the police who are universally despised.

It's strange how the international media always seem to leave out the 'Thaksin link' when they report on this. It's such an important piece in the puzzle that to me it even feels suspicious that they don't mention this, almost like he's greased a few palms in the west (oh it does happen!). Instead they talk about the 'rural poor' versus the 'elite', and associate the word democracy with the very people who ruin the very idea by happily selling their vote fot the price of a couple of beers!

I think that the bbc/cnn and the rest of these 'non-biased' organisations should get to the real truth which is far more interesting than the story which they're currently reporting.

Why don't they ask the red shirts how much they're getting paid? Ask them why they think Thaksin is so great and what he could do for the country should he return. Ask them how they think that Thaksin, as a convicted criminal, could possibly plan to be taken seriously by the international community, should he manage to bully his way back into office.

Ask them why they are using women and children as a human shield.

Ask them why they risk their lives for a greedy evil billionaire?

Why can't the press get an interview with Thaksin? A few well placed questions will simply destroy him.

Why don't the international media do their job rather than appearing to be the heroes in the danger zone, reporting alongside the red-shirt 'freedom fighters'?

My point? It appears that Thaksin has more than just a few red-shirts in his back pocket!!!

BBC reporting on this is very poor. Disappointing actually.

The Beeb has always been slightly left wing but in this case they're just not doing the investigative reporting I would expect.

I think I will register this point with them. They'd certainly not want to be seen as being biased

Din Daeng gone red again.

Udon Thani Town Hall under seige.

Convoys of Reds blocked from entering Bangkok about to get feisty!

Sure they got this contained at Rajprasong?

Another red cheerleader happy that things are about to get more violent

Nobody wants dead bodies just an end to this. The only thing is that most of the posters on here will be shattered and disallusioned when the reds take control. Men dont run a live ammo with a sling shot for 500 baht a day. That happens bcos of years of being down trodden and seeing their parents with nothing after a lifetime of toil. The army needs to stand back now b4 they too get massacred.

So, what do they want to see happen? What would they have someone like Korn do?

What do you suggest? Communism? Pol Pot style back to ground zero?

There are many people in this world who live in poverty. I think it will take somebody a little wiser than you to come up with solutions.

you are a partisan who classifies people in 2 possibilities, unable to understand nuances.

For your information:

I support the Poor Population of Issan and their aspiration to better social environment: yes

I support the Roadmap: yes

I do not support Thaksin: yes

I am not involved with any Red Shirt leader and I am not supporting any of them: yes

I guess (but I am not an actor) that the negociation have failed on the question of Amnesty and double standards, and I regret Red Shirts have left the table and that there was no counter proposal of Abhisit: yes

I am against weaponry in free circulation and all militias from any side: yes

From day one I have explained it was a Police operation not an Army operation, Army should remain symbol of Unity: yes

I am French and as such my social inheritage has been built through social struggle, I am what I am and do not deny this inheritage: yes.

In the current circumstances, I wish that a Peaceful solution is the most reasonable because Unity of Thailand is at risk as well as the Thai Institutions (that I respect as a choice of Thai people): yes

I have a mitigated opinion, please take it into account, but maybe it is too difficult for you. Thanks

Jerry, for what it's worth, I always find your posts both interesting and informative!

Red in Thailand is the National color and does not stand for commis you dufass.

Red is the color for the English so do you call them commis too.

God help me

So why aren't they the "blues" or the "whites"? Last time i checked the flag also had those colors. Oh, wait, maybe its because the leadership is stacked with former Maoists? And isn't one of the goals to redistribute the wealth of the elite? (well, exept Thaksin's, and Chalerm's, and Chavolit's.... )

In politics, a red flag is a symbol of left-wing politics, in particular, of Communism. It has been associated with left-wing politics since the French Revolution.[1] Socialists adopted the symbol during the Revolutions of 1848 and it became a symbol of communism as a result of its use by the Paris Commune of 1871.[2] The flags of several communist states, including China, Vietnam, and the Soviet Union, have red backgrounds. The Labour Party in Britain used it until the late 1980s, and the French Socialist Party uses it, as well as the Social Democratic Party Of Germany (SPD).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_flag

The British army used to wear red uniforms so that blood didn't show, according to legend and also to show the locals who was boss. Somebody then came up with the idea that camouflage might be a good idea (I think it was the French).

Good idea that the Thai troop wear jungle cam outfits. You can hardly see them. No, really. There are three divisions there and you just can't see them...............

well I am seeing more guys willing to die for him thn this govt right at this movement....

Sorry to be a bore, but we have yet to hear just what these people are prepared to die for.

No, really. Let's assume that there will be an election sometime soon, what do they want. What policies do they want enacted? Not one red shirt apologise has attempted to answer this over vthe last two months.

In the meantime, army are moving way too slow. Do it once. Do it quickly and decisively with overwhelming force. Try to minimise casualties but get the job done.

to quote Clint Eastwood -- "it hel_l of a job to kill a man... it takes all he's got.. " may be not the exact words ..still..

Those guys under those Army uniforms are humans as well ... they are no robots... maybe they don't want to do it quickly and decisively...

and stop branding people red/yellow apologist pls... some of us here just want no more deaths... no Reds, no Yellow and no Armymen ...

Fair comment.

I also do not wish to see people killed or injured. However this has gone on long enough and everyone is getting exasperated.

Key ppoint is this though:

Not one red shirt has come on here and explained what they want to ses a government do for them. OK, they want a different government. So what? Please ctell us what they want.

It seems to me that Abhisit and Co have done some very positive things for the Isaan people. I won't bother to list them here but I can if you wish.

So, go on, tell us what peoplke are willing to die for.........

whybother,

“The reds don't want reconciliation. They want to be in power. They only want one thing. That's why they don't want to negotiate.”

That may be your take, but things look very different to the Thais in the upcountry villages – which is surely what is more germane than farang opinion. If you doubt me, read the international press, rather than The Nation & BKK Post, which are propaganda outlets for the BKK ‘elite’.

We have no sure idea of what Abhisit wants, or how genuine are his conciliatory offers. Relevantly, the Reds apparently do not trust him. I’m sure he would be very happy if they all went quietly home. But from their viewpoint, what would they have gained, apart from a politician’s promises?

As from the start, the peaceful solution is seemingly for dissolution of a government founded on an army coup & political horse-trading, then a new election. The alternative is more bloodshed & chaos, but that’s just my take.

The farangs who take a violently partisan approach in this crisis are crapping in their own nest, IMHO. This is a very unstable part of the world. Thailand is surrounded by some very dodgy regimes. Not the least problem is the Moslem violence in the south. Inernal strife weakens Thailand. If you want to continue enjoying its benefits, you might do well to tone down your calls for ‘crackdowns’ & ‘firm action’ – the old jackboots & bullets treatment for the ungrateful poor.

It is not impossible that a regime change will arrive. The new bosses might be the ‘Reds’ you so vigorously attack. You might find your position as a farang insecure. Thais are not idiots, & they have memories. You could find it very difficult to renew your visa &/or work permit in the future. Think on’t. OGT

Early elections have already been offered and rejected by the reds.

Nobody knows what the reds really want.

I would say that in Nakon Phanom provinces support is about 50/50.

General response to Seh Daeng assasination seems to be Sam nah nah. (Seves you right).

The country needs a leader with brain of Abhisit and balls of Thaksin (no pun intended) ... Just having good intentions doesn't work if u can't implement those.... hope Thailand emerges stronger after this debacle...

Since when has Takki got balls ??? last time I looked, he was hiding in exile with body guards around him -tiny little balls would be a correct description - I think if anyone has shown balls here its Abhisit - first to wait that long against the wishes of the majority - than to force the military to actually do something

well I am seeing more guys willing to die for him thn this govt right at this movement....

Sorry to be a bore, but we have yet to hear just what these people are prepared to die for.

No, really. Let's assume that there will be an election sometime soon, what do they want. What policies do they want enacted? Not one red shirt apologise has attempted to answer this over vthe last two months.

In the meantime, army are moving way too slow. Do it once. Do it quickly and decisively with overwhelming force. Try to minimise casualties but get the job done.

webfact

Today, 2010-05-15 08:00:27

Group: Admin

Posts: 11,133

Joined: 2003-02-11

Member No.: 327

3 injured as van trying to clash through security checkpoint at Makkasan

A van was speeding to the security checkpoint under the Airport Link Makkasan station at about 30 minutes after midnight, prompting troops to fire at it.

After the van was stopped because of the firing, troops found three persons inside. They were severely injured with bullet wounds. One of them is a boy, who appears to be 10 years old.

The driver has apparently drunk.

What a stupid comment.

If a van speeds through a check point what do you expect at a time like this?

Blame lies entirely with the driver.

As for international standards what do you think would have happened in Northern Ireland not so many years ago if you tried a similar stunt?

-- The Nation 2010-05-15

From the Sat update thread.

Abhisit as PM allows army to shoot children.

Disgraceful.

Well they are shooting kids now, but no doubt its done to "international standards" ? !! Disgrace.

captured reds http://tweetphoto.com/22344437

Still can't get anything right.

Why arn't their wrists tied with nylon tie wraps?

They'll bugger off any minute

Can we get back on topic?

There is another thread for this stuff.

What is happening with the army encirclement?

Get rid of this scum NOW!!

I thought we not allowed to insult Thai nationals on this forum

We don't need to!

They are stupid / uneducated people from up country, and I bet some of them can't even explain why they are there, apart from getting some money!!!

Have you tried asking some of them? I assume you did, otherwise the above would be foolish beyond belief. Or dare I say, 'uneducated'..

We have been asking this question for weeks with NO result.

Why don't you tell us?

Please spare us the dissolution and we want democracy blather.

Tell us what policies they want to see implemented.

Kowchai mai?

120 armoured personnel carriers....

What are the red shirts going to do with 120 APCs when the "troops" run off?

I guess they might want the tyres?