SnareBear

I have four Rai of farm land that I will plant around 80 fruit trees on. The land is a slight slope with the local irrigation canal (dam supported) coming in at the high ground corner. Nearby that corner is the lowest ground, where I have dug a 600 m2, 3m deep pond.

My plan is to have the canal supply water for the trees through irrigation ditches, but also have it run in a waterfall into the dam where I will have fish. This seems like the simplest and cheapest option for irrigation.

The dam will also be a backup for the dry season so I can support the trees with water by pumping it up to the canal entrance where it runs into the ditches. The dam currently has some water, so it reaches the local water table for sure, but I have yet to find out how much I can pump out per day.

It would be very nice with some hints on how to plan the orchard and ditches. I guess the simple approach would be to plant the trees in rows 6 - 10m apart and then have the ditches run between each row. I can see how that would work for mature trees with a wide root system, but how would it work for young plants? Can ditch irrigation be used right from the start, or is manual watering a must in the beginning? I guess I could make small T-intersections at each plant leading the water closer, or maybe dig a small "pond" right next to each plant so more water is soaked into the ground. What is the common practise for this?

Thanks for any hints.

Sor Por Gor cant be sold, but is widely traded anyway. The trade is just a handshake, nothing is registered. As long as everyone remain friends there is no problem.

The problems begin when its time to upgrade the land to Nor Sor Saam or similar. Then the upgrade goes to the original owner, no matter who actually holds the title papers. Now he feels he owns something valuable and need compensation, or even his land back.

Finaly , some-one with a grain of HARD FACT on ownership/control of Thai land , for all the posturing , double checking , finding what YOU want to own , the bitter fact remains THAILAND IS FOR THAI ONLY . You can never feel completely safe in your little piece of heaven , should a Thai want you out , you are out .

Its not like that. The spirit of the law clearly shows that Thais dont want foreigners to come and buy their land, I'll give you that. The foreigners have tried to use loopholes like the use of nominees. Now they try to stop that, rightfully so.

But still there is nothing that prevents you from coming here and leasing land. Thats completely normal, and even encouraged since its a good way to make good money for locals. Usufruct/superficies contracts are just a variant of a lease.

Sure, I will never feel completely safe, but thats just a trade off for all the good things about this country.

I think there is a paradox in the OP's entire effort he is ignoring. On one hand he says he wants to be completely legal but on the other he says he wants to own, or at least completely control the land. The entire point of Thailand's ban on foreign land ownership is to prevent foreigners from owning or controlling land. Any route he chooses is going against the intent of the law and therefore is attempting to circumvent it. IMHO, he is not going to find a 100% legal way to accomplish his goal as it is inherently illegal.

TH

Ive been in this country for four years now. I know there is no such thing as a "sure thing" in Thailand. I could lose all my investments at any time. Im willing to take the risk. But I want to make an effort to make the odds in my favour. Complying with Thai law is the first step. Making sure no one has any grudges aginst me is also important. So is paying fees and being a stand up person in the community. If they still want me out, they will kick me out for sure, there is not much I can do. Im just trying to give them less reasons to. BTW, this community is all Thai, not a single foreigner around. Ill be the first.

I think you are mistaken when it comes to Thai law. Owership is prohibited, yes. But for a Usufruct, there is no difference between whether the usufructee is Thai or foreigner. The usufructee will still control the land.

To clarify: I will do usufruct in my name for one plot of 4 Rai. I will build a home on this plot.

The other 4 Rai plot will be unrelated to me, no lease/usufruct. My friend agreed to buy it as a favour, just to keep other people from moving in near my house. I want to stay alone with no neighbors, thats the whole purpose of me moving there.

Surely that is only a problem if you were to provide the money to purchase the land?

If someone were to use their own money then they would not be a nominee. The inducement could be that you pay more for the usefruct than they pay for the land which is probably valued higher than the bank need to recover the debt anyway.

To buy land using a nominee is illegal. There are many ways they can prove that you are using a nominee. The most obvious is if the money comes from you, or was put in their account from you, or even if the source of the money is unclear. But the example you give is also illegal, because you were the one coming up with the idea of having a person buy the land for your benefit. Doesnt matter if that person does it as a business opportunity. The crucial point is: who came up with the idea?

Of course your example is fairly safe, because if you are summoned to court you can always lie about the origin of the idea: The buyer bought the land without you in mind, and then suddenly you found him and wanted to do a usufruct.

But in my case, I want to be able to go to court and tell the truth, and still have the law on my side. Ive been to court already two times, so Ive seen what poor liers most people are, so they would likely blow it in court. Also, I dont want anyone having leverage over me. Just count the number of people who knows about the arrangement, including the buyer, and thats the number of people you have to keep happy so no one goes to the police in a vindictive state to throw you off your land. Who knows how friendly these people are 10 years later.

SnareBear, I know that you said you are single and that even if you were married to a Thai you wouldn't have your wife buy land that you would use, but IMHO having a spouse purchase land that you use is not illegal. Especially if you accept the condition that if the relationship falls apart, you will have no claim to the land. This is how it is with my wife and I. She has several properties, most are agricultural land in her village while one is a piece of land that we plan on building a retirement home several years from now. I accept that if we separate that she hold sole possesion of those properties. We have three children and I'm sure that she will want them to have ownership in the future.

Obviously you are not in the same situation as I am and therefore I agree with you that the best way for you to have reasonable control and use of some land is through the use of a usufruct.

As for the agents asking for their share, the situation I observed was an example of an owner who wanted 800,000 baht/rai. Friends and family would look for a buyer. As you say, the chain of middlemen could reach as many as 5. The case I observed involved 2 or 3 "agents", none of them professionals. Each expected to get somewhere between 50,000 and 100,000 baht/rai. So the buyer when found was asked to pay 1,000,000 baht/rai. The buyer (after meeting with the owner) attempted to cut out those that had helped the buyer find the property. When the middlemen didn't hear anything more from the buyer and when the owner claimed that the property was no longer for sale, the middlemen got suspicious and threatened both the owner and the buyer that if they found out a sale occurred without them getting their cut, then they may not be alive very much longer. I don't know the outcome. Both the owner and the buyer claim there was no sale. I don't know if the middlemen went to the land department to confirm their claim. The main difference between my experience and what you experienced is that these local "agents" that I knew were not asking for an outrageous amount of money to find a buyer for the property. Of course 200,000 more per rai is significant, but it actually is not unusual for this type of land to sell for 1,000,000 baht/rai. The local owners don't have access to farang buyers and therefore the price they were asking for was less than what most farang are willing to pay. Having access to foreign buyers is an asset worth paying for.

I look forward to finding out what you end up buying.

I think you have very sound reasoning about your situation and the future. Ive already been married, now divorced and I have had a couple of Thai girlfriends. At this point I have serious trust issues, so Im going to pursue this alone. I've always told myself to never get involved in anything with big money in Thailand because of the risks, but now I finally take that step and I hope people will just leave me alone.

Good points about the agents. In all fairness I think the agents owe ME money for all the double play and dragging out the situation forever. That being said, of course I understand that they must get a cut no matter how misleading and greedy they have been, just to settle peace in the community.

When I finally found the owner of one of the plots I didnt even negotiate the price. The owner told me that he asked the agent to sell his land for 200,000 B, and that he would compensate him for it. I just accepted that price and double checked again that the agent indeed would be compensated by him. In this case I dont feel that the agent is entitled any more compensation since he obviously cheated both me and the owner when asking for 440,000 B. Would he have shared the extra profit with the owner? Of course not.

For the second land plot, it is now seized by the bank, so the previous owner has no rights to it. He cant even be considered an agent since we found the plot though the land department. He tried to swindle me out of 600,000 B, the bank wants 200,000 B. He gets nothing. He will be very upset, of course. Dont know how to handle him at this point. Morally I feel Im right, but that might not mean much to him.

Yea, prices are very low, but this is land no one wants. Very low value to Thais, only valuable to foreigners like me who want to stay in the jungle.

Deposit is paid for both, and the transfer will be end of next week. Polishing up the usufruct contract right now. I have a few additions, and if they pass the lawyer's scrutiny I will tell you later what they are.

Seem like you have done your homework. Do you mind sharing how much you are paying per rai/square wa and roughly where in Thailand?

1,5 hours from Chiang Mai. Two plots, 4 + 4 Rai of Nor Sor Saam. One is rice paddy one is overgrown unused.

Its a bit complicated because the land borders a national park, and the land department told me that the borders most likely will be heavily adjusted when it is time for upgrade to Chanod, so this is a risky buy. But no one knows if thats next year, or 20 years from now. Im willing to take the risk, as long as the price is fair.

I'd say normal price for non risky Nor Sor Saam rice paddy in that area is around 100,000 B / Rai (confirmed by the local "mayor"). The "agent" initially asked for 150,000 / Rai, same for both plots. When I finally found the owners (bank and private, unrelated), they both wanted 50,000 B / Rai. Ive already paid deposit for both, and the change of ownership is next week.

We are buying a house from a developer and may get a mortgage from a bank. I've read all of the posts that I can find on usufructs but cannot find anything definitive on having a usufruct with a bank mortgage. Some posts state that <a> banks won't loan money with a usufruct in place and others state that <b> once the bank has a lien on the property that you cannot get a usufruct. Catch 22. Meanwhile there are posts saying that to fully protect yourself that you should get a mortgage and have a usufruct. Obviously these posts seem contradictory.

A usufruct is tied to the title not a person, so a title with usufruct is basically worthless as collateral. The is no legal limitation to selling and buying land titles with usufruct, but why would anyone do it? Why would anyone buy land they cant use? Thats why a bank will never give you a loan on a title with a usufruct = no value.

There is no legal limitation to setting up usufruct on a land already with mortgage, but why would the bank allow it? Then they would have suddenly lost the collateral value.

The only practical solution is: usufruct = no mortgage.

It has also been my experience that a broker/agent doesn't pretend to be the owner yet still expects to get their cut of the action for guiding a potential buyer to a property. If they are up front about their role and they end up finding out that the buyer bypassed them and directly negotiated with the owner, then trouble is to be expected. Threats on your life or the lives of the seller are likely to occur.

I also wanted to thank you for this informative post. So did you end up finding anything to buy? Do you have a usufruct?

As for having more than one person on a usufruct, I do believe that it is possible. But this may just change the situation from being a murder to a double homicide. Once both (or all) of you are dead, the land is back in control of the land owner. It only costs 10,000 baht to hire someone to kill someone else. Life is cheep in the Land of Smiles. Land is much more expensive.

Thanks Donx.

An honest and fair agent should get their cut for sure. I wouldnt dream of not compensating them. However most people I have dealt with are not really agents, they are just opportunistic locals who happen to know someone who want to sell their land. The see a foreigner come, and suddenly they add 100% to the price and none of that will be shared with the actual owner. Its just silly how greedy they can be. So usually I find out who the owner is and tell the owner to ask for a price that includes the compensation for the "agent".

Yea the double murder is a risk, but I have to stop worrying at some point and ask myself how likely it is to happen.

At this point Im very close to a deal with three adjacent plots of land. It was a very long and frustrating path to reach to the truth about the plots, way too many tricks and lies. I was ready to back out several times, but kept telling myself to hang in there. Now all is in the open, and Im ready to buy/usufruct. But I have zero respect for some of the people involved, will have to bite my tounge when I interact with them in the future since I will be living in their community.

Now starts the trouble with doing everything by the book, since Im anal about following the law. We would have completed this a long time ago if I had been more flexible and accepted a few gray zone deals. For example one plot of land is owned by the bank, and they dont want to do a usufruct with me. Having a person buy the land from the bank and then doing a usufruct with me is illegal, in Thai law that would be using a nominee.

I hope this is solved in a week or two. Will let you know.

It had to be abt 100 m2 according to contract and was paid respectively for 100 m2. After I got Chanot I found out it had 5 m2 less, abt 200.000 bat overpaid.

Any opportunity to get overpaid funds back? Talks with management: only half to be guessed as my credit for "future maintenance fee". How much for the lawyer service in Phuket and perspectives generally? I aware lawyer would spend time and money for the case...

Phuket, foreign freehold, contract clearly states .: 100 m2 x 40.000 baht = 4.000.000 baht, no balance statements agreed in contract.

Why did you pay the final balance of the contract BEFORE you inspected the condo?

Of course they will cheat you out of what ever they can. Thats why you need a final inspection before you pay the remaining balance.

Forget about this. Its only 5% of your condo, not worth fighting over. There are many other issues that will come up in the future that you should save your energy for. Loss of electricity, internet connection, poor water pressure, maintenance fees that should have been included in the monthly fee, barking dogs, pool cleaning, etc.

When you say the Thai Courts haven't looked at the issue of agreements to renew leases after the first 30 years has expired, this is not correct.

The supreme court has already examined this issue. What they found was that rights in these types of contractual agreements fell into two types: lease rights and non-lease rights. The first 30 years is a lease right, and the agreement to give a further term is 'non-lease' right. Non-lease rights are covered by different legislation to lease rights.

The court's determination on this issue suggested the following: agreements to renew a lease after its expiry are not to be considered a part of a lease but a further separate contractual agreement between individuals; it also suggested that these agreements to renew came into conflict with Thai law which says the maximum period of a lease is 30 years.

The judgement is infact quite pragmatic. Lease agreements won't be overturned before the 30 years have expired simply because they contain a renewal clause which is in conflict with Thai law. On the other hand it stops land owners and purchasers getting around Thailand's restrictions on the term of leases.

Anyone who thinks that signing a contract by itself guarantees anything does not understand the basics of contract law. Contracts have to comply with the spirit and the letter of the law, or the Courts will not uphold their validity. This is why the advice of competent legal advisors is crucial whenever you enter into any kind of contract

Good points. Regarding the court procedure on 30 + 30 I havnt heard that before, my lawyer must be misinformed. Will see what more I can dig up on this.

I can see a problem here. Even though the land owner signed a +30 yr separate contract, he can say he was confused at the time and now realizes that it doesnt conform with Thai law so the contract must be void. But of course he will agree to look the other way if the leasee just pays him more money.

Re how contracts must comply with the law, very well said. And not even then can you feel completely at ease, because the owner might feel he want to break the contract and you are simply not up for going though one year of court procedures. It has happened personally to me that a person simply ignores a contract with his name on it and just says "well sue me then". In that case it wasnt worth it.

I like this part the best:

A lifetime usufruct looks like the best option in my opinion. This means that you have the right to use the land as if it was your own, and you also get whatever is yielded from this land (farming, etc), and you retain this right for the rest of your life.

You forget that your life can be short here in LOS.

You can add that as the 5th scam.

I understand there is a 6th option Use a usufruct but put the land in a charities name at least you are deeding the property to a worth while cause and not just given it away.

"The right of usufruct can be created for a period of time or for the life of a person or persons." The right of usufruct can't be established for a period exceeding the life of a natural person or persons (it can't be an unborn child)."

http://www.thailandlawonline.com/usufruct_online_info.html

So you could put your name and the name of your children in there. Will have to double check that further with two independent sources though.

I’ve been hunting for land for 2.5 months now and would like to share my experience. What I have learned might prove useful for others.

My requirements are unusual; a piece of land in the mountains, with no neighbors, quiet and near nature. I plan to build a house there and live three months at a time. It will be my safe haven when I want to get out of the normal hectic life in the city.

I decided early on that I will be very anal about following Thai law. This is very difficult. Just like other business where there is a lot of money to make, the real estate business is normally operating in a gray zone where many arrangements don’t hold up to scrutiny, so at the end you are at the mercy of government law enforcement. It should be noted that nothing is ever “for sure” in Thailand, but at least you can better your odds of a happy life by complying with Thai law.

Thailand has many types of land title deeds. The only ones that should be considered by a foreigner is Nor Sor Si (Chanod), Nor Sor Saam Kor and Nor Sor Saam. Mountain land with the right title type is very hard to find. Normally the government will only grant these titles to land near a community, or when the land is within a farming area. Single isolated plots are virtually impossible to find. However, the countryside is littered with nice land plots of type Sor Por Kor and similar. Those were once handed out to poor people by a local committee, for private use as farm land. It is illegal to sell or lease them, no matter how hard the seller tries to convince you of the opposite, so they are useless to foreigners. Surely these title documents are traded like a normal commodity but that doesn’t make it legal.

There are many scams you could encounter in the land hunting process. Let me describe a few that I have experienced myself.

The far most common scam is when the broker/agent acts as if he is the land owner. Everyone wants in on the land deal; everyone expects to make a ton of money, so you want to cut the chain of people short or the final price will be very high. Every person you meet on the land trip is expecting a cut and it’s not that uncommon with a chain of three people or more. The most I’ve encountered is five, and of course the price was insane. In theory this scam is very easy to counter. You simply ask to see the person’s ID card, and compare with the name on the title deed. In practice people come up with all kinds of excuses to not show their ID card while at the same time trying to convince you that everything is in order. It might be wise to play along, because you might like the land and you can always find the real owner later.

Another very common scam is pretending that the land is Chanod when it isn’t. You ask the owner multiple times if the land really is Chanod and each time they will say it is for sure. At some later point they will admit that right now it is Sor Por Kor, but that you shouldn’t worry about that because two or three months later it be upgraded to Chanod. They will say that you are making a great deal because you will get Chanod land for the price of Sor Por Kor. It is true that the Thai government has an ambition to eventually have most land upgraded to Chanod, but this process is very slow. They upgrade community by community. You can’t know when your community is selected and you can’t know if your land will participate. It might be a “problem land” that can’t be upgraded. And remember: Sor Pro Kor is illegal to buy. One way of calling their bluff is to say “Well, this is great news, why don’t you call me again when the Chanod upgrade is complete and I will pay more for your land”. However, the easiest way to counter this scam is of course to insist on looking at the title document before you go to look at the land. Anyone that refuses to show the title document is obviously a scam artist.

The third scam has to do with mortgages. The seller will tell you that the title has a mortgage and the debt is very high, so there is a minimum amount to just get the title out of the bank. He will even go so far as to collaborate with people in the bank to show inflated debts. You may think this is a very juvenile way of elevating a price, because why should his debts be any of your concern? But in Thai buyer/seller mentality this really comes into play, and there is no way you can buy a land without clearing the owner’s debt and also on top of that giving him some more. He will rather lose the land to the bank than put in some of his own money to clear the debt.

Sometimes the land is already lost to the bank. Be very suspicious when the owner doesn’t show you a copy of the back side of the title document where such things are recorded. At this time he is trying to artificially elevate the price, when it is much easier for you to just buy the land directly from the bank.

The fourth scam is played by your lawyer when he downplays the risk of getting caught in creative land arrangements. As a foreigner you can’t own land in Thailand. It’s against the law. I should mention that I'm single, but even if I had a Thai spouse I wouldn't want them to own the land, it must be in my name. To set up a Thai company for the sole purpose of owning land is also illegal, although lawyers do it all the time. To have a Thai friend act as a nominee to buy the land for you is also illegal, and this is very common too. The only way to set it up legally is to lease the land or have a usufruct contract. Leasing 30 + 30 years is very popular. However the extra +30 years has never been tested by Thai court so we can’t know for sure if it will be granted. A lifetime usufruct looks like the best option in my opinion. This means that you have the right to use the land as if it was your own, and you also get whatever is yielded from this land (farming, etc), and you retain this right for the rest of your life. The downside is that you can’t sell the land, and when you die your family doesn't inherit the usufruct.

Comments welcome. I hope this is of some use.

I just came back from Mae Sai yesterday and I can confirm this. Only 15 days.

This new rule makes sense to get some riff raff and leechers out of Thailand. But its also gonna hurt those who have good cash but not a proper visa, like me. But Im leaving Thailand pretty soon anyway, so it doesnt affect me much.

Congratulations, It's a tough ride, especially the 7 switchbacks!!!

Out of interest, where do you get the powerbars in Chiang Mai.

Cheers,

Beanster

Thanks Beanster1!

Its not real power bars you can get in a gym, theyre called "Hahne Yumbar". Cereal, nuts and malt syrup. You can buy them at Tesco Lotus Hand Dong rd in the cereal/musli section. Theyre tasty, but perhaps not optimum for a workout (not a lot of calories and mostly slow sugars).

Try this:

1. Pull out the plug, turn it 180 degrees and insert it again. Could remove some of the shocks.

2. If that doesnt work, then replace all of your cords with grounded (3 lead) cords. But be sure to check the cords with a multimeter at the store, because some grounded plugs still only use 2 cords inside the cable. Check that all three pins are connected. Buy a 3 to 2 adapter so you can fit the grounded plug into a non grounded outlet. Solder a cable to the grounds of the adapter and mount the other end to any big metal part of your house/apartment, such as window frame etc.

3. If that doesnt work, then connect the grounds cable to anything of metal dug down in the garden. In some cases the phone company has already dug down a grounding cable, just attach it to that one. Thats how I solved my problem. Last option is to dig down a earth spike yourself, but you have to dig pretty deep, around two meters down.

OBSERVE: dont play around with this unless you know what you are doing. You can get lethal shocks.

Just did the Samoeng loop. Started near Wat Umong (south of the university) and did it counter clockwise.

It took me 5 hours 38 minutes, including breaks of totally 25 minutes. I walked in total around 4 km.

I reached as far as Queen Sirikit Botanic Garden without touching feet to the ground, which is a great victory for my weak body. The uphill stretch leading to the scenic view point was really rough, walked most of it. The seven switchbacks right after Mae Khaim Nua was pure hel_l, and I was walking the whole thing, cursing in the sun. The hard work paid off with the great ride downhill right after.

Cant say this loop is popular. This is Saturday and I only met one cyclist.

I had planned to eat something light along the way, but strangely enough I wasnt that hungry. I consumed 5 liters of water and two power bars. I think I under-ate and will try to feed better next time, to get more energy.

Was in surprisingly good spirit and body didnt feel too bad when I got home.

Another step closer to getting in shape. Im gonna do this loop as often as I can, and try to shave off time, and pedal more stretches instead of walking.

Chai is putting together a band right now to play at his place on soi Wat Umong. He is a really nice guy, Ive jammed with him a couple of times.

Slogger: Take Suthep rd, and turn left at soi Wat Umong. Continue past 7-eleven and the next set of stores, and you'll find a sign on the left side of the road: Chai house of blues. Drive in 50m and youre there. Its a really nice place, much nicer than the Brasserie, but still empty as he hasnt had a grand opening yet.

Re Boy, he plays at the Brasserie (as mentioned) but also at Warm Up and Ginger House, and will probably soon be playing at the Monkey Club.

That track into Mae Win is not one of the "shortcuts" I've ever used. I've only done it on a roadbike and it's impossible to do the loop in under 90km while staying on pavement the whole time. And it's much more than 11km of climbing if you stay on the pavement.

Thanks for the reply.

That short cut saves you 6 km, and the dirt road part of it is only 1 km. But of course you'll have to walk the dirt if you have a road bike, and in this weather it could be pretty muddy.

BTW do you take left after the gas station leading you to the Night Safari? That doesnt save you much, but is way more nice than the canal rd. You can even continue left at the Flower festival round-about and ride through a small community to end up at the ostrich farm on the canal rd.

I didnt count slight inclinations only steep inclinations that I would have a hard time pedaling. I would say that more than 50% of the loop is flat (from Ban Pong to Mae Sa Waterfall, and several smaller passages after). But having said that, the climbs look like a bitch to do!

(The biggest shortcut is as follows:

After making the left turn off the Military Rd in Mae Rim, go a little over a km and make a left turn onto the first real road, before the For Seasons. That road will end at the Mae Sa Valley Rd, just where it starts the long climb up to the elephant camp. This save 3 or 4 kms.)

Please check the picture attachment. Did I get it right? Looks like a good one, but less than a 3km save.

Your problem is that pushing a bike up a 11kms of mountains will take well over 2 hours. The off-road section will probably be slow going too. I really think you should try it since you think you can do it and that's half the battle, but I think you've substantially under-estimated the time requirement if you have to walk for 11km.

Good luck and let us know how you do.

Thanks. Im not worried about the off road part, thats just 1km. But its a bit intimidating to think about walking up to Wat Doi Suthep (also around 11km) AND then pedal more than 50km. But if I have a whole day to do it I'll be ok. My willpower is stronger than my body can handle. Dunno if thats good or bad.

I'll keep you posted. BTW, is there a place on the web to share bike tracks for the Chiang Mai area? I'll be happy to contribute, and I would be interested to see other rider's tracks. Maybe I should just start a thread here at thaivisa and post the tracks I normally use?

Im trying to get in shape, and have the Samoeng loop as a goal. Just rode it on my scooter and made notes. Its a beautiful ride!

Did it counter clockwise. Took the canal rd north, turned left after the military area to follow the stream, then turned left and rode past Four Seasons hotel, then left again and past X-center. Followed the road all around the mountain and at the end near Ban Pong there is a small dirt road that lets you cut across to eventually pass close to the Buddha on the hill. The dirt road is marked as a mountain bike trail.

Its exactly 80 km for a full loop according to my scooter trip meter. I made measures of uphill/downhill stretches. 9 km of it is steeply upwards, comparable to the Wat Doi Suthep rd. Another 2 km is extremely steep upwards, probably impossible to pedal. 20 km of it is downhill and effortless.

Last two weeks Ive done three trips over 50km each already, partly flat partly hills, and I feel its not too exhausting.

So I recon Im gonna walk at most 9 + 2 km = 11 km. That leaves me with 80 - 20 - 11 = 49 km of pedaling, which Im already used to. In theory, this should be doable. Would probably take 5 to 6 hours.

Count me in, plus 1 friend. Thanks for having the party.

Ive seen a few posts about Andriol here, but not a lot of hands on experience.

I would like to know how it worked for you, either if you took it as hormone replacement therapy, or part of your training regimen for gaining muscle mass.

Thanks,

SnareBear