steady

To Stu Levy

We have been there and what you must do is contact the Thai Embassy and get a letter from them explaining that name changes are impossible in your case. However they wont give that info, they only say that they don't have the power to change names because house books and IDs can't be changed by the embassy. However even with that letter you have to apply for the passport. (By the way they wont even answer you if you don't send a stamped addressed envelope.)

When we did it the UKPO sent a letter of refusal saying that we had to go back to Thailand to sort things out. I phoned their help desk number, and after explaining things they said that they had to escalate things and someone would phone us within the next few days. Sure enough they phoned b utthey couldn't act on what I told them ( bog standard  - cannot change name because adoption was UK).

A day later someone else phoned and they were a bit more knowledgeable - they stated that it was possible to change names in house books and IDs in Thailand. I responded - not if they have been adopted in the UK! The voice on the other end said that he had to take advice. Three days later the new passport arrived in our family name, not the Thai family name.

My view is that when you send the bog standard applications to the passport office they are not very aware. However once you send your complaint about individual cases then they are very professional and fair.

All I can say is that my adopted daughter now has a UK passport with one name and a Thai passport with another - all done after talking honestly to the UK passport office.

Now you need to decide what your benefits are in trying to change the name. In our case we couldn't find any. Our adopted daughter just lives her life as one name in the UK and when we go to Thailand on holiday she digs out her Thai passport. She prefers the British passport - it allows her to go to Spain and France for holidays and weekends away!

About 2 years ago we tried to change our adopted (in the UK) daughter's name from her Thai family name to our family name. Same outcome as you, however we were told to contact the Thai government's adoption department in Bangkok as they had the power to allow the name change once they had seen all the relevant paperwork.

We were in Thailand but 400km away from Bangkok. The wife phoned and asked what they needed and how long it would take and could she make an appointment as we were on holiday and time was limited. The adoption department were really quite useless, they wouldn't let us make an appointment, didn't know how long it would take or what documents they needed and we could just leave all of our original documents with them and if they wanted anything else they would tell us!

We tried to change the name thinking that it would tidy things up but now years later I wonder why we even bothered to try. It makes no difference to life here in the UK.

As for rules and regulations - I got the impression that they made them up as they went along. Same as most things legal but not mainstream.

You may be right about the passport, however one of the reasons which can be given to Bangkok Bank to allow an international transfer included being educated overseas and that wouldn't require a UK passport. I think that a passport is just an easy way of proving where the person stays. I assume (maybe foolishly) that there must be other methods and documents acceptable.

Getting the money out shouldn't be an issue. We now live in the UK and have for the last 4 years, for the previous 10 years we lived in Thailand. When we came back to the UK we couldn't sell our house but about 4 months ago, totally out of the blue we got an acceptable offer. Because everything is in wife's name she just put the money into her Thai bank (Bangkok Bank) and arranged an international transfer through her internet banking. The bank would not do anything until she faxed a copy of her British passport to them, they had already seen the land office receipt( if I remember correctly). They wanted something to prove that it was going Thai to Thai (I think), so proof of a British address or something else would probably be acceptable as long as it clearly shows a Thai presence. Easy answer is to ask bank before you leave. She then gave her UK bank details, in her case Royal Bank of Scotland, and she now transfers her money whenever she wants. We watch the exchange rates closely before doing anything and we get a 300 baht charge for up to £20,000 worth of transfer. Wife's Thai bank limits each transfer to 500,000 baht, which when exchanged comes to about £20,000, depending on rates.

Although I don't know, I do have a suspicion that we will not be able to transfer any more than the amount we put in from the sale of the house but then you can bring cash out. In the UK you can bring in unlimited cash as long as you declare it but I don't know the Thai limit.

Yes, it can be done. We did it in September 2012 and, from what the OP has written, it appears that we were in a very similar position. Our niece stayed with us as another child of the family but nothing official was in place and we had done a couple of visit visas to the UK previously without any bother (we did have a KP14 from the amphur). She went to the same school as our natural children, had the same health insurance, got the same school uniforms, dental treatment, days out etc etc. We had receipts and photos which proved this. 

Our niece had lived with us for about 3 years (if I remember correctly) at the time of the application which took much longer to process than was the norm at that time. My wife and our niece's mother were both phoned by the Embassy and had quite long discussions.

I remember that one of the conditions of a "de facto" adoption visa was that all connections to the natural parents had been cut. In our case the niece's mother was still totally included in the wife's family. Our niece's dad (wife's brother) died when she was very young and her mother just couldn't take care of her when she had to work. In the application I clearly stated that we lived about 600km from the mother, and left it at that. The Thai woman who talked to my wife and niece's mother, however did ask about when they had last had contact, which was answered truthfully and the situation was explained and the embassy's Thai employee seems to have applied a wholesome common sense approach and realised that this was just a normal family situation which is so common in Thailand.

When I asked about the likelihood of it being possible I remember that every forum I was on only ever returned negative replies saying that it couldn't be done. I think that the best I got was someone saying how difficult it would be and that they had never heard of anyone being successful. Well at least you have heard of someone being successful but it will still be a long hard slog. I remember digging around for receipts, photos, school documents and other things that proved our niece stayed with us and then quoting the UKBA (as it was then) rules in my application saying why I met them, or why certain other regulations did not affect us. It's so long ago I can't remember the details but I do remember lots of reading and re-doing letters before the application was ready.

Anyway good luck to the OP, you're in for a lot of work - but at least you know that it's possible to be successful.

This concept of habitually resident seems to be the key. Once you find out how many days a year staying in one country constitutes habitual residency you've got the matter sewn up. Very simplistic but could be very expensive if the person you are dealing with in the UK government decided against it. That would mean a court case I assume to take the definition from a grey area to something more legally defined. Hopefully everything keeps on going ok.

The link shown in Chiangmaisausage's post (#5) says -

Your child can get a British passport if either parent is British and the British parent was usually living (‘habitually resident’) in the UK when the child was adopted.

Only adoptions conducted under the Hague Convention are recognised. You must send the child’s full Hague Convention adoption certificate showing the parents’ details.

This information was last updated on 15 December 2015 so it still doesn't clearly say that British Citizenship and hence eligibility for a UK passport is automatic if the adoption takes place overseas. I'm not actually convinced of what it says,. The first sentence indicates that it is not possible, the second sentence indicates that it may be possible!

Another discussion point..........

I don't know why the comment about "is unqualified" is laughable. It was written in relation to someone being employed to take care of children. Where did the "disinterested 23 year old student that will look part time after the children, occasionally looking up from her smartphone" come from. As for giving the impression that every granny is good at taking care of children, my experience doesn't relate to that. There are many good young mothers and poor old grandmothers......but as soon as it becomes a job for them then there are visa rules that they must satisfy.

As for the rest on Manarak's message, it's a personal view but has very little to do with the subject of the thread which is about a visa refusal because the application gave the impression that someone was coming to the UK to work.

I don't understand this - Do you think the rules are well made and preventing close family members from looking after the children is acceptable from a citizen's point of view ? The rules don't prevent close family members from looking after children. The rules stop unqualified people from looking after children as a job. The fact that someone is family is irrelevant. If a citizen satisfies the rules then close family members can look after children, just not as a job.

^{I've been playing safe anyway and waiting until the 3 years are up before applying for the wife. She came here in September 2012 so I'll wait until September 2015. Thanks for your input.}

Hello everyone, I've previously read on here that when making an application for citizenship then earlier visit visas can count towards the time that the applicant has been in the UK.

It is now time for me to start with the wife's application and I find that when completing the residence requirements on the application form it clearly states in the guide AN that the dates should start from when "you first arrived with a view to staying in the UK on a long-term basis". This seems to me to discount any earlier time in the UK.

Does this mean that I am misreading things or have the rules changed?

If anyone knows for certain that time spent in the UK on a visitor visa counts can they please direct me to where it says so on the government / UKVI website.

Thanks in advance.

If I believed in kharma then this would probably get as close as I could understand . Some may say what goes around comes around.

If you return to the UK to live then a way of getting citizenship a lot quicker than the 5 years is to do a British adoption. I did it about 2 years ago for our niece. We arrived in the UK and just felt that as our niece had stayed with us for about 4 years by that point it seemed a way to get her established in the UK quicker, it also gets her British citizenship other than by descent (which my natural children can't get, being born in Thailand). I'm a bit of a worrier and cynical and wanted her protected from the vagaries of British politicians as soon as possible.

The process took us about a year to complete and the court wanted lots of paperwork, which I assume that you will have. We only had a Kor Phor 14 and proof of living together. It cost just under 2,000 pounds all in including court stamps, solicitor and lots of documents couriered to and from Thailand for one reason or another. The process also involved local authority social workers and another solicitor working on behalf of the court.

It's something to consider. It's definitely the right answer for our family.

Everyone, thanks for the suggestions and input. The house does have guttering so that issue is addressed. There are also plants and bushes which have helped a bit.

I think that the type of soil is the problem, it's sandy so in the dry season it goes like concrete and when the rains come the water just runs off. Because the garden has a slope it all runs down to the wall before being able to soak in, taking the top layer of the looser sand away every time.

We are losing earth from the garden during the wet season when the rain causes water to run over the surface taking earth with it. It has now started to leave holes underneath the perimeter wall. My thoughts are either dig a long trench about a metre in from the wall and fill it with rough gravel or stones and let it act like a sump and (hopefully) slow the water down and stop the garden disappearing under the wall or dig a similar trench and run 8 inch concrete pipes with connecting boxes every couple of metres with holes in their lids allowing water to flow into the pipe. Then let the pipe run onto the roadside drain.

Has anyone any comments or better ideas? Thanks.

Did the test and got 21 out of 24 correct, so I passed. The three that were wrong were dates and if I were studying for real they would be remembered for the next practice test or the one after that. I think that most people are passing first time or getting a high mark means that the level of the test is about right. If you don't have to work to pass a test then the test is not at the right level. Some of the questions could be considered obscure but what would the alternatives be?

I think the idea that anyone would just jump into a LITUK test without doing study beforehand is wrong. If the OP had suggested that contributors do, for example, 10 dummy runs first and then do a test we would get a better indication of how easy it is to pass if you understand the UK and its history like a local.

If people who have to pass the LITUK test put in half as much effort as has been expended on the subject in this forum they will all pass with 100%. Personally I just think that these are the rules, I can waste as much effort as I like today arguing about it but with the present political climate if there are any changes then they are only going to tighten up on testing.

For what it's worth the wife passed it first time about 2 years ago. She passed because she worked really hard and we bought the government books, used websites and read forums and just worked through it until she kept remembering the answers. The reason that I say this is that she will not have passed her English to the standard required for ILR or Citizenship until she sits her exams this June. Durhamboy the test can't be overwhelmingly difficult if someone it 2 years before their English is good enough for ILR. However I tend to agree when you doubt what good the content actually does for the person being tested. Perhaps it's not the best measure of understanding of English either but it's what we all have to deal with if we have spouses who are Thai.

I don't know what the answer is when discussing the test and its content, and I can't think of any other workable options either (that would be acceptable to whatever flavour of government is in power). In my world this just goes into the "too hard box", we knew what had to be done and worked towards it.

Lucky they were wrong in my case. otherwise I would be the one asking the questions! I found them to be very professional too, hence why we listened.

Not sure if I have understood the OP's message - did you say that you completed the adoption in a year, or just completed last year. If you did complete in a year then you did really well. About 3 to 4 years ago we tried to adopt our niece and went as far as the Thai government dept dealing with adoptions and when they found out a falang was involved they said that the process would take at least 3 years, and they still wanted checks done on me from the UK. At that time I hadn't lived in the UK for over 10 years. I'm afraid that I can't add anything to your query because we moved to the UK and did the adoption here so that British Citizenship is automatic.

At the risk of being sucked into a never ending downward spiral I will endeavour to bring a little bit of common sense to this thread. I am a simple man who likes a simple life and although I understand English I really don't understand this thread.

I have been married for almost 10 years to my Thai wife and we take care of our 3 children, 2 natural and one adopted. The natural children are half Thai and the adopted child is 100% Thai, however we have adopted her in the UK and she is now British (other than by descent) too. So all children have 2 passports, UK and Thai.

My wife has ILR and a Biometric Residency card and is just waiting until she can apply for citizenship, she has passed the KOL test and is at college to improve her English. In the meantime we have bought and sold property in both the UK and Thailand - UK joint names, Thailand her name (falang surname), all without incident whether residing in Thailand or the UK. We have travelled to Thailand, again without incident and returning to the UK is routine too.

So I assume that we are a pretty ordinary mixed nationality family and yet we have never fallen foul of any of these issues so eloquently described by RichardW. I've never even heard of them and assume that most civil servants (Thai or British) are actually unaware of them too.

So do we know just what percentage of immigrants will be affected? Out of this group how many could avoid the issues by gaining citizenship? Which leads on to the thorny issue of - is it not reasonable to assume that people who come to live in the UK should be encouraged or pressured (use your own words) to be part of the society that they live in and work at becoming British Citizens. It's just another decision which has too be made when considering the move to another country.

So that's my tuppence worth, I can't see any problems.....I can't even understand why most of what is being discussed is being discussed.

Who previously said that they were losing the will to live? Can I come and join you?

Never seen a thread quite like this one! Richard W it's obvious that your wife has been in the UK long enough to go for citizenship. Why hasn't she gone for it yet?

The other issue is that you are obviously having problems with the UK legislation and your understanding of it. Is it not the right time for you to consider other options if these problems are insurmountable? (UK legislation is not going to change much.) Either get your wife citizenship or consider relocating to Thailand.

It seems to me that your issues won't go away so these are the only two ways to put the worries to bed.

Yes, they are liable for overseas fees. The criteria for these fees is not nationality it's residence. If you have stayed in one of the home countries in the UK for more than 4 years (I think) then you are classed as a home student.