david96

Agreed.

For me personally I would stay away from square D

and try to get type 'B' MCBs you get much faster tripping times. Thailand only has type 'C' it seems. You only need type 'C' if you have circuits with motors on them, ie motorated circuits.

Mean tripping values MCBs (current causing automatic operation of the protective device).

Curve B MCB = 4 x rated current

Curve C MCB = 7.5 x rated current.

Curve D MCB = 12.5 x rated current

Curve C is standard curve for lighting and power circuits.

Source AS3000.

Depending on type of construction one does not require cabling (B/W) in conduit

Cabling may be run surface in pvc ducting (eg Clipsal 900 series) or TPS+E in cavity block walls and in ceiling spaces above the ceiling and supported at regular intervals. The same applies to cavity walls timber or metal. (Australian Wiring Practice).

Here from the Philips catalogue are the current outputs of 36W 1200mm tubes.

TLD 36/830 3350 lumen output warm white 3000K

TLD 36/840 3350 lumen output cool white 4000K

TLD 36/850 3250 lumen output daylight 5000K

TLD 36/865 3250 lumen output cool daylight.6500K

K is the colour temperature.

840 is used for general lighting.Average tube life 13000hours on a 3 hour switching cycle.

A pack of 25 costs about 75 Dollars AUD. compare that with one 36W LED tube.

The OP asks about renewing a visa for the country he is residing in. If he has to renew a visa why not go to the Embassy of the country of issue ( of the visa) with his current passport and they will advise him.

He has not stated his nationallity or the country which the visa applies.

If he also wants a visa for the US why not go directly to the US embassy in Bangkok?

The question that should be asked is "What is the political future of Thailand"?

What foreign governments will be looking at is whether Thailand moves closer to China and the future of the M********. At present it is allied with the West, but that could change. China is extending its reach as Thailand is within its "sphere of influence"

It has been mentioned outside of Thailand that Thaksin was interested in moving Thailand to a republic but at the moment support for the M*******. seems assured.

In 1946 an incident occured in Thailand that has never been explained as discussion is banned in Thailand.

Since when foreigners can get involved in another country's political events?

What does this guy have to gain? What does he have to loose?

There is a huge gap between having opinions, and actually going with a rally....I hope for him that he won't have to regret his actions a way or another

Permanent residents of Hong Kong can vote in all elections regardless of passport (permanent residency is nearly always granted after seven years of uninterrupted residency). Not sure how many other jurisdictions are that liberal, but I believe New Zealand may be another.

Normally you must have Citizenship of a country eg Australia. Here permanent residents who are UK citizens can vote if they resided in Australia prior to 1984. But a dual citizen can not stand for public office, he/she must relinquish their foreign citizenship first.

HongKong was up to 1997 a British Crown Colony and many of its citizens had BNO status. thus they could vote. There is already concerns that China (PRC) will restrict democracy.

One good reason to earth electrical equipment is that it minimises the effect of small shocks from the standing leakage currents. ( you will not sense these ).

This is why one often sees an earth wire perhaps only 1.0sqmm running directly from the equipment to a short electrode in the ground, very often this wire is only burried a few cm in the soil, but it solves the problem of the leakage currents.

To disconnect the circuit in the event of an earth fault an RCD is required.

Yes LED lighting is the future but at present they are too expensive and the payback time would be too long.

However once the major lamp manufacturers (eg Philips, Osram etc) start making them in commercial quantities the price should drop to match the standard 36W 1200mm along with all the other industry standard fluoresent lamps.

My estimate would be 10 years before they become commercially viable.

What is the lumen output of these currently available 36W tube LED replacements?

In a functioning democracy the Judicial system, the Parlament and the Administration (public/civil servants) operate individually from each other without interference.

Back benchers, and ministers are free to debate, discuss or ask questions in Parlament

with out interference from vested interests and "persons of influence."

And one can contact ones local MP in person and be treated equally irrespective of ones political colour.

And in a functioning democracy every citizen is treated equally, and one vote is between the

individual and the ballot box, no one else.

If Thailand wants to understand what democracy is all about one only has to look to Australia

and New Zealand.

An Thailand needs to rid itself of the "les majeste" law, so constructive criticism can be made concerning the M*******.

In a functioning democracy the Army (Defence forces) are under control of Parlament, and a Minister is responsible. The Defence forces do as they are told.

In Thailand it is the other way around.

Its something I don't understand, so long as they are not back to back to back visa's whats the problem?, they seem to want to force people into rushing into a more permanent settlement situation ie: partner visa as apposed to just letting a couples relationship progress slowly and at a normal pace and thus giving the couple a genuine amount of time to be sure its the right thing for both parties.

If you are of working age and trying to hold down a job and life in Australia you can't keep running over to Thailand for extended periods, why not allow a couple to use a higher number of Aus vistor visa's.

Just my thoughts.....

We are supposed to have a recipricol Visa agreement with Thailand........we go there as many times as we want and get visas on entry......they have to get a visa before they come here and are usually restricted to how many are issued......go figure that one

Australia does not have any such agreement with Thailand, it is a trade agreement only.

Read Post 13 David...

In fact we do have a recipricol visa agreement with Thailand and many countries........it is for the working holiday visa.

Yes one is aware of the working holiday visa, but FTAs do not extend to general immigration, just try and obtain a permanent resident visa for Thailand.

What we have is a submersible pump motor rated at 220V 5.1 A full load current with a route length of 50 metres from an existing switch fuse unit rated at 20A. Run is underground.

The consumers mains commence at the meter with 25sqmm Al conductor. This would have an approx current rating of 16sqmm copper.

We will allow 2% for voltage drop in the 25sqmm consumers mains. this leaves 3% for the pump motor circuit.

The circuit may be run using 2.5sqmm minimum copper from the switch to the pump. A 20A MCB for protection, preferably an 30ma 20A RCBO.

( Calculations based on AS3000 )

Back to my original question, WHERE DO I GO FROM HERE?

What type of consumer unit (name brand?) and what type/how many circuit breakers (Amps, RCD, etc, etc) would you recommend for the following? We have found out earlier that the MD will be in the ball park of 64A (thanks Elkangorito)

Kitchen - 4 x DGPO. 1 x SGPO (range hood plus exhaust fan). 1 x combination light/fan. 1 x oven. 1 x cooktop.

Bathroom - 2 x lights. 1 x exhaust fan. 1 x SGPO.

Laundry - 1 x hot water heater. 1 x DGPO. 1 x light.

Master bedroom - 4 x DGPO. 1 x combination light/fan.

Bathroom - 1 x light. 1 x exhaust fan. 1 x SGPO.

Bedroom -4 x DGPO. 1 x light.

Carport - 2 x DGPO. 1 x light.

Living room - 4 x DGPO. 6 x lights.

Hallway - 2 x SGPO. 1 x light.

Sunroom - 2 x DGPO. 1 x light. (fan)

Foyer - 1 x DGPO. 1 x light.

Bedroom -4 x DGPO. 1 x light.

Bedroom - 4 x DGPO. 1 x light.

Outdoor - 2 x DGPO. 6 x lights. 1x SGPO (pump)

You can use this as a guide. Based on a MEN Electrical Installation.

1 x 63A MCB as a main switch.

2 x 10A lighting circuits. 1.0sqmm

6 x 20A power, socket outlets. 2.5sqmm (two circuits to run through kitchen area) approx 12 to 14 socket outlets( points) per circuit. A double socket outlet is 2 points.

1 x 20A hot water system. 2.5sqmm

1 x 20A cooktop. 2.5 sqmm ( more than 5000W less than 8000W)

1 x 20A oven. 2.5 sqmm. (more than 5000 W less than 8000W)

All socket outlets on RCBOs.

DIN MCBs and RCBOs 6kA fault current rating minimum.

Merlin Gerin, Clipsal, Schneider, Hager,

Polycarbonate enclosures supplied with neutral link, earth bar.

Sheet metal enclosures are also available.

One module size on the switchboard is equal to 1 pole.

A 24 pole enclosures should suffice for an installation connected as MEN.

One has supplied this information based on AS3000/2007

You should consider RCD protection on lighting circuits.

Fans points are connected on to the same circuits as the lights.

RCDs are available in one module width ( Schneider, Terasaki. etc.)

If you install a MCB as a main switch the max demand is limited to the rating of the MCB.

Just to have discussion - maybe new thread? Anyway...

Why do some of you think RCD circuit protection is "good"?

To me (and with consideration to underlying physics and psychics), ground wire protection is good enough for most applications. I can go along with GFI protection at point of contact (in socket) like in wet areas (bathrooms, outdoors) - but otherwise I just don't get it.

My reason (opinion): chance for electrocution or even more than a tickle in properly wired (with grounded) circuits seems like it is so low that it just isn't worth that expense.

Can you convince me otherwise?

The big issue (in the UK at least), is some bright spark bashing a nail through a cable buried in the wall and just contacting with the live core. There are numerous cases of things attached to said nails (or screws) becoming live and causing death. ALL cables buried less than 50mm deep (unless in metal conduit) must have RCD protection at the CU under the latest UK regs.

There has been several fatalities in Australia due to nails/screws damaging cables and energising building materials. Installing RCDs to protect cabling in high risk environments will enable compliance with AS3000/2007.

Do you have a main earth from the main switchboard to the earth electrode? Do the earthwires all run to the main switchboard?

Yes there is a problem with earthing in Thailand. They do not understand it.

A Thai degree in electrical engineering and he does not understand earthing or they do not teach earthing from a practical standpoint, what earthing actually achieves in the way of protection in an electrical installation.

There are several topics on the subject in the DIY forum/ electrical.

My argument or shall I say discussion isn't what RCD's are designed to do, it's whether they are really that necessary for "protection". BTW: your math is OK but I don't see relevance. (?)

''

The reason for using RCDs on final sub circuits with socket outlets is that a standard Curve C

MCB must trip at 7.5 times rated current within 0.4secs. However, portable and hand held electrical equipment may be run off a socket outlet and may be connected by a 1.0sqmm flex lead. The impedance of the circuit may have increased to a value that will prevent the MCB operating within 0.4secs. if an earth fault occurs.

The electrical equipment may become damaged while in service and the PE conductor may become defective. In the case of an earth fault the person in contact with the faulty equipment may receive a severe or fatal electric shock.

An RCD/RCBO will automatically disconnect in less that 0.3 sec generally .02 secs at 30ma.

An RCD operates at a very low value of current and operates faster than a current operated MCB.

RCDs have been proven to save lives and property damage. If you save a life by installing RCDs it will not become a statistic.

Earthing will not protect a person from electric shock by direct contact, direct contact means that the person receives a shock from contact with an energised bare terminal, bare conductor or busbar. The victim may also suffer burns if arcing occurs.

However, an RCD will give protection in some cases where the point of direct contact is on the load side of the RCD/RCBO.

To minimise this risk terminals are shrouded or recessed.

Most electrical fatalities occur by indirect contact eg failure of a PE conductor and no RCD protection along with failure of insulation of the electrical equipment.

I would appreciate a bit of expansion on the detail in your second paragraph - just want to make sure that my understanding of what you have said is in actual fact correct. Especially "borrowed"neutrals and dual RCD DB .

A dual-RCD (or 17th edition) board is a bit like the split-service board shown here http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/Consumer.html except that both sides of the board are RCD protected rather than just one.

A 'borrowed' neutral, refers to when a circuit has been wired using a live and then using the neutral from another circuit because it was convenient, this often happens when you have 2-way (3-way to our US cousins) light switching, it's easier to borrow a neutral than to wire it properly. The issue is that although you've isolated the circuit you're working on, it's possible for that neutral to become hot and bite.

With the MEN system, only the active conductors are switched, and with 2 way switching or 3 way with a intermediate switch the same applies. However if double pole switching is carried out both the active and neutral conductors will be switched. If one has a "borrowed" neutral from another circuits this would fail the correct connections test and the circuit would not comply.

A high standing leakage currents could be causing the nusiance tripping, the RCD is just doing what is it supposed to do. Standing leakage current should not exceed 30% of the rated trip value and RCDs must trip between 50 and 100% of rated trip current in mA.

Any electronic equipment with capacitors connected to earth will cause leakage currents.

I forgot to mention the step voltage and touch voltage only appear when there is an earth fault.

Fallen power lines will cause step voltages to appear.

Its something I don't understand, so long as they are not back to back to back visa's whats the problem?, they seem to want to force people into rushing into a more permanent settlement situation ie: partner visa as apposed to just letting a couples relationship progress slowly and at a normal pace and thus giving the couple a genuine amount of time to be sure its the right thing for both parties.

If you are of working age and trying to hold down a job and life in Australia you can't keep running over to Thailand for extended periods, why not allow a couple to use a higher number of Aus vistor visa's.

Just my thoughts.....

We are supposed to have a recipricol Visa agreement with Thailand........we go there as many times as we want and get visas on entry......they have to get a visa before they come here and are usually restricted to how many are issued......go figure that one

Australia does not have any such agreement with Thailand, it is a trade agreement only.

Yah - just to throw in my opinion... having ALL sockets RCD protected is WAY overboard - and probably cause more nuisance trips than you want to live with. Proper grounding (they call it "MEN" in this forum - in the states it's just normal) is sufficient for most in-house circuits. You want the GFI protection in areas where there is potential for accidental earthing of live device. Around here the RCBO seems to be the preferred method - but like you I am only familiar with the in-socket (GFI) device. I wonder what statistics there are for people being accidentally electrocuted here in Thailand with the (to most of us) sub-standard methods? Maybe it's not the horific situation we might imagine.

You should read my post #34 closely, they are all reasons that justify the the use of RCDs.

Also in high risk areas connection of permanently connected equipment should be considered.

In reply to post #25 by Elk.

I think you misunderstood me, in Australia the electrical contractor installs a 12mm copper clad steel earth electrode at the electrical installation. This takes about 15mins to drive in average soil, and terminate the main earth conductor in an approved manner. This complies with AS3000. The main earth conductor from the electrode must not exceed 0.5 ohms. It is the main earth conductor that is tested for compliance not the electrode /soil resistance.

The Electrical Authority is responsible for earthing the neutral conductor at the transformer and at regular intervals on the network, they bear this cost and are responsible for compliance

with their own requirements. The electrical contractor knows that the MEN system is mandatory.

In Thailand the guide lines are 5/25ohms resistance between the soil and the electrode and 2 or more electrodes may be required driven 2.4 metres. To verify this would require testing with an earth resistance tester. It is in my opinion that this is not required with a MEN system, and all that is required in a single electrode 12mm copper clad steel minimum driven to a depth of 1.2M minimum. This is for the consumers electrical installation only.

Earthing at the transformer is generally with vertically driven electrodes but strip electrodes run horizontally may be employed in some cases. In Australia the point of earthing is the neutral terminal of the transformer on the public network.

The Thailand the demarcation line between the electricity authority and the consumers electrical installation is not clear but for all practical purposes would be at the metering point. From this point on is known as the electrical installation.

"No differing potentials at any two points on the earth surface"

What is meant here is known as "Ground gradient" which creates two other problems, "Step potential" and "Touch voltage"

Step potential means the prospective or open circuit voltage that may appear between any two points ( 1 metre apart ) on the surface of the ground. Step voltage reduces substantially at short distaces from the grounding point. A guide is that the voltage will halve for each 0.75 to 1 metre from the grounding point.

An Earth spike is not the same as an Earth electrode. The terminology can be confusing.

There was a very good documentary on the political instability in Thailand on Australian SBS-TV.

sbs.com.au/dateline

Mentioned the les majeste laws and the fact that discussion of politics in Thailand needs to be more open to public debate. Also mentioned the possiblity of a Republic which may be worrying the ruling elite and the Privy council was mentioned.Interviews with current PM and some other ministers.

A very well designed Main Switchboard and of a high standard of workmanship by the contractor.