stbkk

Why would you want the expense (1m++thb)? For what? Really, I am not seeing it. I see no benefit so help me out. You don't have to visit Immigration office??

I think there is a subset of guys that like to feel like they belong as much as possible, PR makes them warm and fuzzy. Another similar group are the document collectors: taben bahn, etc...

Not only loss of 1m but on interest, dividend, profit..

I have just received PR after a long wait.I was however fairly sure I would qualify once the logjam was unlocked.This was on the basis of excellent advice from Camerata and others, supplemented by working with a top flight Thai lawyer.

Over time there have been quite a few posts on the lines of that from bangkokburning.As far as one can tell these members who see no value in PR don't qualify for it anyway, so I am at a loss to understand why they get so heated about what is beyond their grasp.

So am I. I am also at a loss to understand why anyone would want to live in a country for a long time and NOT want to become at least a permanent resident, if not a citizen of that country, given the chance. Thailand makes it harder than western countries do to obtain either permanent residency or citizenship, but at least it's not impossible. Since you don't have to give up your existing citizenship(s) when you take up Thai citizenship, there is no reason why you wouldn't want to take up Thai permanent residency or citizenship, given the chance.

I saw a while ago that one of the (new) requirements for citizenship was that you had to sign a letter renouncing your existing citizenship, which is why I will be stopping at PR thanks. I'd be happy to hear that is not the case, of course!

Firstly, I'd suggest you take a look at Camerata's excellent thread on this topic. While lengthy it contains pretty much everything you need to know, crtieria, opinions as to benfits/otherwise of PR etc..

My personal opinion:

The only real benefit is that if you lose your job/want to quit your job, you can remain in Thailand for as long as you like with no need to have any dealings with immigration, prove income, etc. etc. As I understand it, if your extension to stay is linked to a job/wp, when you lose that job you have to leave the country the same day!

There are a few other 'technical' benefits , but to me the one above is the only big one.

Be aware though, that as was mentioned above no applications have been approved (or rejected!) since the coup in 2006, and somewhere (apparently in the interior ministry) there is an ever increasing pile of applications (including mine) just gathering dust.

While we are periodically re-assured that someday this block will clear, the longer it goes on would appear to me to make this less and less likely.

I guess if applications are excepted again this December, that may point to some attempt to get the process back working.

Good luck if you decide to apply. I hope you have a lot of patience.

As stated before, I have recently gone through the naturalization process with exactly zero mention of my original nationality made by any Thai official anywhere along the way.

That's very interesting. Did you apply before the 2010 change mentioned in post #71, which says you have to sign a letter stating you will renounce your former nationality when your Thai nationality is granted?

As a 2006 PR applicant, with an application maybe lost forever in the world of Thai bureaucracy, and also married to a Thai, I was very interested in this possible route to citizenship. At least until I read the requirement to sign this letter. Much as I doubt that I will ever return full time to the UK, I still don't want to close of that option forever.

PR is the first step to citizenship in most cases, and has some benefits of its own.

Unless your friend is a close bosom buddy of the Interior Minister, though (and he's about to be out if a job himself), I think he's full of hot air. There are hundreds of people, many reasonably well-connected, still waiting for PR after submitting applications five years ago.

Some well connected people (7 to be precise) from the 2006 and 2007 applications did indeed get PR but their connections were above the Interior Minister level, at least those of the one I know were. Anyway we are now living in a world of "de factos" and "de jures". The outgoing minister was de jure without any real power, while some one else was the de facto and called all the shots. Soon we will have a de jure and a de facto PM too.

I'm one of the stalled 2006 PR applicants, and was considering bypassing that and going directly to citizenship under the new rules (I've been married to a Thai for 7 years).

But I read a posting somewhere about a new requirement that applicants must sign a letter confirming their intention to renounce their original nationality on approval, which in my case would be a show-stopper (personal opinion only, I have no intention of starting an argument as to the merits of various nationalities! ).

Does anybody have any updates on this aspect at all?

Yep, Skype's out in two locations in Nong Bua Lam Phu province.

I've just done a general google and its a worldwide problem, mainly for Windows users apparently.

It certainly isn't working for me in Singapore.

What do yo do? Just sit in a bar? I assume you don't work here in any top professional field. For myself I have met some very good engineers in Thailand, some are here just for one project 6-12 months others 1-2 years, I have met some other ex-pats living here for a long time such as myself. I started a company here in Thailand about 5 years ago and in doing so I have also met a very good group of ex-pats owning their own companies which are not bars but companies such as engineering, power, marketing etc etc. To group all ex-pats as being the same is a very stupid comment, and I'm not name calling I'm saying your comment was stupid, opinion or not!

No, I haven't set foot in any sort of bar in nearly 20 years. I don't like them, or the people one finds in them.

And no, I don't work here. I'm over 50 and retired, thank you. When I did work I was self-employed and I did well enough to be retired now with no worries about the future at all.

And you appear to have misread what I wrote. I didn't group all expats into anything at all. Go back, have another look and try again.

Darrell sorry you are correct I realized that you did not group all expats into one category until after I posted. So if you don't go to bars and you don't work here then your interaction with expats is very limited. So you are making a comment on a very very small portion of the expat population. I know guys working for large companies such as GE capital, GM, etc transfered here from the USA and Australia who are top notch, and as stated before I have met many expats with their own companies who are pretty sharp.

Glad you did good for yourself and retied here. Still no plans to get a PR, just not worth it with little to no benefits, being from the USA I own my company 100% and have my work permit which is easy to get.

Anyway sorry for not clearly reading your post.

I've no interest in entering this particular argument, but have a few comments on the original article.

1. Obviously it's entirely up to the Thai government who they give permanent residence to, and/or what other visa types they allow - no issue with that at all.

2. However, having applied for PR in 2006 under the rules that were applicable at that time, I don't think its unreasonable for me to expect an answer one way or another by now?

3. I can then make a decision as to how best to plan my families future, whenever my employment/work permit extension of stay ends (as the rules stand currently, I could choose either the Thai wife/family or retirement routes, if I wanted to stay in Thailand). The only reason I applied for PR way back in 2006 was that it seemed like a good way to avoid having to keep up with and meet the continually changing requirements for either of the above options. Not the first time I've been completely wrong, and probably not the last either!

4. One final comment. I have been in Thailand long enough to understand that fairness and logic take a very second place to self-interest and the path of least resistance/effort in most things here. I'm therefore not at all surprised to see the big pile of 'pending' applications being still stuck in a corner somewhere. As has been speculated on several times in the above postings, if there is nothing in it for them, very few of the Thai 'political classes' seem to have any have any interest in doing anything, IMHO.

5. I lied about the last comment. Not that it means anything, but If my wife and I had decided to return to the UK early in 2006, which was one of our options at the time, she would have her UK passport by now. I never thought that I would be able to put a UK government agency above anybody else in terms of efficiency!

STBKK (although who knows for how much longer).

Hi everybody,

I have a friend who is thinking of starting his own company here to formalise his previously 'unofficial' freelance (IT related) work.

However, he does not have a degree, and is worried that he may not be able to get a work permit without one.

I don't have a degree myself either, but as I've had my WP for many years and also work for a blue chip western company, I'm not sure the same rules still apply/will apply to him?

I'd appreciate any advice, comments or recent experience from anybody.

Thanks,

PS. Still waiting for any news about PR, if anybody has heard anything recently?

Do not believe any nationality has ever been exceeded and for the last 3 years there have not even been any approved that we know about. There are much more serious requirements than that 100 per year limiting most people - but if able to do I would highly advise those of younger age to try. On retirement it is virtually impossible for most. See the pinned thread on PR for more details.

You mean no persons at all have been approved in the last 3 years??????

Holy cow.

I guess it doesnt much matter which passport I use then. Just asking now as I'm about to get my first non-immigrant visa for the 3-year thing. Wife/kid are thai.

Actually, its nearer 4. I applied in December 2006, and have not heard anything for about 3 years. All applications are apparently 'stuck' somewhere in the interior ministry.

I've heard tell that the only 2 nationalities that reach their 100 maximum are India and China. SOunds reasonable, but no idea how true it is.

Read Camerata's excellent post at the top of the page for all the information you are ever going to need, and then some.

Firstly I'll add my thanks to you for offering to allow us some 'input' to this discussion, however unofficial it may be at this point.

I've also deliberately kept my comments more general, to avoid getting bogged down in detail too early in the discussion.

1. I'd assume the purpose is to try and allow foreigners of 'good character' who have demostrated some sort of commitment (either financial or emotional) to Thailand over a number of years some security.

2. This would be very welcome. As in one of the previous posts, I have worked and paid taxes in Thailand for a good many years. I have also bought a house here (in my wifes name, of course), supported her family in general in various ways (not just financial), including putting my stepson as well as my natural son through international school education. If I lost my job, I would have 7 days to arrange a change of visa that would allow me to stay and find another job, or leave my wife, children and home - Thanks very much!

3. Most foreigners described in 1 above can be categorised into two groups.

i. Still working in some form or other, either through their own business or employed. The majority of these would not have to much problem meeting income requirements set above.

ii. People who may or may not have been in group (a), but who are now retired and wish to stay. Some of these may have limited incomes, which are still perfectly adequate to live comfortably on in Thailand, especially for somebody who has lived here for a number of years.

4. In my opinion, the majority of both categories would be happy with a small list of 'benefits' as below (my own personal priority).

i. Security of stay - I.e. Permanent. , No visa runs, no 90 day reports, no worry about loss of job/loss of visa.

ii. Ease of work - Why should somebody with 'Permanent' residence still need a work permit, and have any restrictions on what type of work they can do, apart from possibly restrictions in some areas of government service?

iii. The ability to actually own the house and land they live in/on. By all means limit it to one private residence per 'PR', and limit the amount of land if you must.

5. I personally, and most of the people who have posted so far would not be interested in Thai citizenship if it meant giving up our original citizenships. Thai's are hugely proud of being Thai, and how many who currently enjoy dual-nationality would give that up if required to get a UK/USA whatever passport? If you are trying to make the process fair and transparent, why have this restriction!

Finally, does this mean that there may actually some movement in the current logjam of PR applications, going back nearly 4 years mow?

I went yesterday morning, getting there at 08:40.

Skytrain to Mor Chit, taxi to immigration.

No more difficult that the usual traffic screw-ups around that area.

Beware of the holidays next week, though. Monday and Wednesday in my office.

My friend got his PR about 8 years ago. He used a lawyer and with the lawyer fees and PR fees with approval was almost 300,000 Baht. the fee for the PR is 7600B and then approval is 191,000 if single 97,000 is you are married to a Thai. It can take more than 1 year for approval of PR once application is submitted.

The following are the main requirements, but as in Thailand this does not mean you will get a PR:

1) To apply they only accept applications between October and December, but they don't accept applications every year you need to watch the bangkok post for an announcement that they will be accepting applications.

2) You need to have 3 consecutive extension of stays to no lapse in between.

3) Depending on your nationally will depend on your salary requirements and if you are married or not will affect this requirement. If married then only 30K per month, if not then this can be as high as 80K per month.

4) You need to be able to speak, read and write Thai at a grade six level of which you will be tested and this will be video taped.

5) you must not have any criminal recored either in Thailand or your home country, need you a statement from your embassy stating this. your finger prints will be taken and a police check in Thailand will be done

Doing charity work helps but is not actually required, you do need to show you are a positive influence to Thailand.

All reports show they have not issued any PR since 2006. Who knows when this will change.

There was certainly no reading and writing of Thai involved when I applied in 2006.

Also my friend (who applied in 2008) recently had his language test, which also did not involve reading or writing. His was an interview type test with simple questions and answers, in front of a panel of testers. He said it was very relaxed, although it was indeed recorded. He also was told (by the immigration people in the PR dept beforehand! to dress smartly for the interview!).

We both did our own applications, with no lawyers involved.

As I said above, check out Camerata's guide to application post. Its the best advice you'll get, and free.

I'd wait until what they say about the tax before deciding.

Its a points-based approval system apparently, and the income/tax does make a major contribution.

I applied in 2006 so cannot comment much on the current Thai language test, but back then it was not too hard. I have a friend who applied in 2008 also, and he said although the format is different, its still not too bad.

isnt it 10 years for permanent residency ?

not sure

I went to the old room at room 302 at suan plu. They told me it would be better if i applied having been married for two years. You need a minimum of 3 years. I know they havent accepted anyone since the coup, but i believe they did take applications again last december. Can a senior member or global moderator help. I know you have wisedom on Thailand. I have been here for just shy of 5 years so i havent exactly been here too long.

First of all, you need to look at the pinned post at the top of this page about PR, by Camerata. It is probably the most comprehensive and accurate resource on PR in the Kingdom, up to and including the immigration department documents.

1. You need to have been working (continually and legally with a work permit) for a minimum of 3 years. Not 10.

2. If you have been married for 2 years when you apply, the PR fee on approval is 50% (95K approx, instead of 190k approx.). The application fee is the same, married or single (about 7k, I seem to remember?).

3. I don't think being paid 10 months a year matters, but they will tell you at immigration.

4. The PR people at immigration are very helpful, don't be afraid to go and ask them in person. As for many things in Thailand, cultivating a personal relationship with them will help.

5. Applications have been accepted every year (in December), but none have been granted since 2006. There is apparently an ever increasing pile on the interior ministers desk waiting for approval. T.I.T.

You can do the application yourself (a Thai speaking wife/gf will help a lot, of course), but there is a lot of paperwork to get together, both personally and from your employer). Again, talking to the PR people in immigration helps. You can also get the list of requirements from the post metioned above, but as in most things here, this changes (slightly) periodically.

Good luck if you decide to go for it.

Always, always so much misinformation about PR. 80,000 baht salary for three years? Tea money?

I did mine a couple of years back and I certainly wasn't on 80,000 per year (50K). And the tea money, bribes, etc are a crock. All above board and if you satisfy the requirements you'll get it. I did it myself (with the missus) and I got it.

If you're interested and you'll think you've got a chance my advise is just go ahead and put it in.

And despite what people say, there is a big advantage: you have a permanent visa and are pretty well immune from future immigration changes.

I also made the application myself with the wife's help, and although its a bit of leg work nothing is very difficult.

By the way, when you say 'a couple of years back' what year exactly did you apply? I applied in 2006, and have heard nothing since!

Definitely a good idea to get the UK birth certificate.

Its a one time cost, and will make it so much easier if ever he wants to go back to the UK full time.

And by the way, being a father gets more expensive as they get older....!

Having PR gives me a feeling of security that I can be in Thailand for the rest of my life (unless of course I do something stupid like get a criminal record) and never have to worry about possibly being separated from my Thai family who are most important thing in my life.

Well yes, but you can also stay in Thailand with your family on yearly extensions for the rest of your life if you wanted. PR is not needed for that.

So in the current format I don't think there is any real value in PR in Thailand (especially when compared with PR in another country like Singapore or Australia). Except as said before if you want to become a Thai citizen in the future.

Agreed. The expense and head ache may not be worth it. I send a messenger for my 90 days reporting, so it's just showing up once a year with the wife for the visa. It's not that much of a hassle. With regard to the citizenship, for sure it would be on my list of things I would like to accomplish, after all the Thai lessons and my over all feeling about being here; why not try.

The citizenship thing may be less attractive from now on, with the recent announcement (I read on this forum somewhere) that you now have to provide a document agreeing to renounce your original citizenship when the Thai one is granted.

However I personally think the PR still has some value. You only have to skip through the posts here to see the frequent changes that happen to most visas. Who is to say that the family extensions will remain as easy to get in the future?

So far, although they have made a number of changes to the PR process over the years, it still seems to mean 'Permanent'. Of course, that could also change at any time.

In fact, the current 'holding' of several years worth of applications may point to something just like that being under way?

Yes, its definitely 3 years now.

Sorry to read about your trials with the tax/work permit issues, that must be so frustrating.

What you should also be aware of is that for the last 3+ years although they have been accepting applications, none seem to have been approved/refused!

I applied in December 2006, and have heard nothing for the best part of three years, since my Thai test.

If you read the pinned thread above you will see lots of speculation as to why, but for whatever reason nothing seems to be moving, or even show any sign of moving.

Even if the system returns to some sort of normalcy, it still takes 12-18 months from application, so they say.

You will definitely need to have a current work permit. Also I seem to remember you have to have been working for the same company for two years before you can apply.

They would be the first things I'd ask the lawyers.

However, as the pinned thread says, you can do it yourself (with help from your wife). The immigration people are very helpful, and you will probably save yourself a decent sum.

I asked the lady when I was handing mine in, and she said You can still give the paperwork to the embassy in Bangkok, and they will send it to Hong Kong for you, but YOU have to pay for the courier.

Thanks for the update, no doubt they will bundle all the applications together and split the courier cost between all the applicants - yeh right, and of course you will have to pay for the return delivery.

I for one find it pretty disgusting, but of course there is FA anybody can do about.

By the way "samran" now I am whinging.

haha.

Don't worry, I'm having a similar whinge. The NZ embassy is asking $50 a pop to use the diplomatic pouch for my wifes PP application and my daughters citizenship by descent form. And, before the OZ embassy shifted over to a similar system back in 2003, I got my passport application with about 3 days to spare.

Frankly, none does passports better than Thailand. My Thai PP cost me 1000 baht, took 30 mins to process with only an ID card to show, and is sent to your home 3 days later by courier for 30 baht.

Hmm. 3+ years waiting for PR so far. 5+ years waiting before I can even apply for citizenship when (If) I get PR. I'll probably be dead of old age before I have the opportunity to test that one out, Samran!

I have just returned from making my sons application for a passport at the embassy, and hopefully can clarify a few things.

1. There are notices in the consular section and outside the embassy saying you will be able to hand in your application for processing either in Bangkok or send it directly to Hong Kong when the changes come into force.

2. I asked the lady when I was handing mine in, and she said You can still give the paperwork to the embassy in Bangkok, and they will send it to Hong Kong for you, but YOU have to pay for the courier.

3. The turn around time remains the same, 10 working days.

So basically no improvement in service, but more cost. That's Gordon Brown's Britain for you. Although hopefully not for many more months.

You may also want to check in the employment forum, because depending on your circumstances (length of employment etc.) you may well be due some financial compensation from your employer.

The Thai labour office is apparently very supportive to employees, even Non-Thais, so I've heard.

I was concerned about that as well, which was why he only had a Thai passport to start with (to avoid any visa type issues in Thailand).

However, to summarise what I have learnt from the various threads on this forum about dual nationality:

(a) Thailand allows it until the child is 18 (or maybe 16, I can't remember exactly).

( On reaching that age the citizen must choose one or the other nationality. However, apparently there is nothing in law anywhere to say what happens if they do nothing (very Thai-style! ).

© Many of the posters are well past 18 (I'm guessing, no offence intended!), and have no problem travelling on two passports. Showing both on check in for the flight, showing the Thai one at passport control in Thailand, the UK one on arrival in Britain.

They then do the reverse on return, showing both at check-in, UK passport at UK passport control, and Thai passport at Thailand immigration.

I am planning on doing exactly that with my 5 year old son in July.

I agree.

My son has already been to England twice on his Thai passport (which is quite quick and simple to get), and I am just in the process of getting him his British one, to save the UK visa cost in future.

I'm off to the Embassy on Friday, to deposit my son's application.

I'll try and get some 'definitive' information and let everybody know.

Hi welcome to ThaiVisa, a good place to find out exactly this sort of info.

First of all, its good practice not to use capitals on the forum (or emails etc.), as that is regarded as shouting in cyberworld...!

Secondly, there was a big thread about this a few months ago, which is worth searching for and reading, it will give you a lot of background and opinion (some good, some bad!) about exactly this topic, and also dealing with Thai officialdom.

Finally, if you are coming in to work (legally, of course!), you can bring in some personal effects free of duty within a certain time period of getting your work permit. Its documented in the above mentioned thread.