jayboy

They offer real good money now, so I wouldn't be surprised if they can get 100.000 or more people.

Great, more red trolls stomping around Bangkok. Starting to sound like a Lord of the Rings Plot. Meanwhile, Smeagul Thaksin sits and hides somewhere, being his usual, slimey, double-talking self. My Precious....I want MY PRECIOUS back....Give me my PRECIOUS back and I will help you... and the Red Trolls march on, as the Plot thickens. ;-)

It was tempting not to comment on your rather thin Lord of the Rings analogy.Nevertheless,Thaksin just as Golum a hobbit gone bad, I don't think so.No surely he is the great Sauron himself, the embodiment of evil -a thing lusting after Complete Power.

If any violence ensues, it will be because of the reds instigation, and any following or loyalty they enjoy will quickly evaporate.

Impressive powers of premonition not only in the anticipation of violence but also in determination of responsibility.

Personally, I have no idea how this will pan out but the history of Thailand shows very clearly that in attempts to crush protests the offending and guilty side have ALWAYS been the army or police.Quite recently some Thaksinite supporters on this forum were foolishly arguing the yellow shirts were looking to provoke violence by the authorities.Now the deniers of widespread national sympathy for the red cause, such as the poster quoted, are arguing much the same way.

Somehow intellectual honesty has been lost along the way

You'll probably also get better results if you specifically name people you speak of instead of the thinly-veiled unnamed flaming you seem to favor these days.

btw, I didn't make the claim you had questions about and thus didn't respond to it earlier...

lastly, if you are unaware that the Yellows continue to have big gatherings or rallies, you're not keeping abreast of the news.

This is a ridiculous charge.Steve2UK - with whom I have never had any contact -is one of the best mannered and non-flaming types on the forum.Your own record...well it speaks for itself.I suggest you avoid personal attacks and if you really feel you have something useful to say stick to the subject at hand.

The elite and their mia noi, BMW lifestyles might be nearing end game now.........for the Thai people will find a way to resent it, when they are told to be sufficient and live off rice, whilst others are corrupt and live off of BMW, Mercedes and Prada for the Mia Noi's.

This one's difficult to pass, too.

What makes people say these things? Envy? It must be eating them.

Or is it believe that TRT/PPP/PTP or whoever comes to power if reds win are shiny moral compasses that would never ever think of having mia nois or, gosh, driving BMWs? TRT used to provide "entertainment" at their official party functions, btw.

I don't know what to think of their former leader Somchai who drove his pregnant mistress to suicide.

But I do have a solution - rally behind Chamlong instead!

I wouldn't write off these sentiments just as envy, though that and class "warfare" is presumably part of it.History is full of elite groups who ignored or minimised these sentiments and their reward was marginalisation, exile and (think Romania) sometimes a lot worse.The trick is to manage the transition and I think in Thailand that role will fall to educated middle class people, dare I say it like Abhisit/Korn etc who don't see politics as a zero sum game.You are right that that leadership won't come from the TRT/PPP axis.Thaksin may have been the catalyst for change but events have moved beyond him now.

I assume your reference to that sanctimonious (and in my view irresponsible and wicked) old fraud Chamlong was a late April Fool's joke.

The govt will simply clear one entrance and that's it.

As I said earlier - it's the same rules, just a different game. If reds want to play PAD game of tug of war with the police, they'd better be prepared, and they'd better anticipate a huge public backlash, and they'd better be prepared to shed those "innocent democratic lambs" image they've been trying so hard to sell.

That would be a an entirely different proposition.

Really have to agree with Plus here. The tone I'm getting from the BKK public is not one of sympathy or empathy towards the so-called Red Shirts, and this is amongst people who thought the PAD crossed the line raiding the airport.

As much as a select group of people on here are trying to send the impression the country is on the brink of a revolution, the reality is that apathy is at an all-time high, which could morph into anger if pushed hard enough. Thaksin, however, doesn't seem to be aware or appreciate this and the pushing is continuing.

I don't think you need to say you agree with Plus.When have you not?

However my main point was to ask how exactly you get "the tone" from so many millions of Bangkok residents? Can one subscribe to this service on True? I'm genuinely interested because my personal subjective impression is the complete opposite of yours.

From what I hear from the red stage now, tanks are seen near Nong Khai. They asked why not bring those tanks to Bangkok so they can drive. From the news the reds got, people may make a coup at 20:00 tonight.

This morning the person in charge at Taxi Radio Station said, he has agreed with 10,000 taxi drivers that as soon as tanks are seen in Bangkok, drivers will block all streets with their taxis, lock and leave taxis there.

Koo82 you are a lunatic, it's people like you, with a mind set like you, that make Thailand one of the biggest jokes in the international community.

Not only that, but his posts are now tiresome, bordering on lunacy and nonsense.

This is a worrying time for everybody in Bangkok, it doesnt need the flames of hate being stoked by this eccentric, gross exaggerator.

Please stop, any credibility you may have once had went out the window many moons ago.

Isn't Koo a she? I see where you're coming from but since there is a massive and vocal presence on this forum supporting a different position from Koo it's surely only fair to let her have her say.I can't see any malice in her posts....and guess what, she probably broadly represents the views of many millions of Thais.

Pull what off?

PAD couldn't dislodge the govt even with all their backing. What chance to the reds have? No court is going to dissolve Democrats anytime soon and the coalition isn't rambling, they all want to be in a working government, not begging Thaksin for election funds.

Er I thought PAD did dislodge the elected government with assistance from a "directed" judicial system.

But I wonder whether you are right in understimating soft power.Even now the image of that Chinese student in Tianmen Square with his plastic bags facing down the tank resonates

The army under present leadership will not initiate a violent crackdown on demonstrators. Reds are just talking to cheer themselves. They choose to belive this farce where Thaksin is fighting for democracy, they pretend they have the majority on their side, they pretend they have as much power as PAD, they pretend the army is going to attack them and they imagine how brave they will be when it happens.

I think you are right on most of this but not all.Without going into detail I suspect many underestimate the broad national sympathy for the Reds.Clearly they don't have the elite support and unlimited funding of the PAD, nor that organisation's influence and power.They almost certainly have more Thais on their side but whether it's a majority I don't know (and neither with respect do you).I think you are right to assume the army won't intervene violently but on the other hand all it takes is one silly incident.The PAD was desperately trying to provoke some kind of assault and in the end succeded in creating a "massacre." I think that Abhisit has a cool head and will do his best to manage this situation competently.

I see incidentally Abhisit has reportedly agreed to be interviewed by Hardtalk.Good for him.If true he has cojones because there is one explosive question out there that has never been asked and almost certainly will be raised by the Hardtalk interviewer.

From what I hear from the red stage now, tanks are seen near Nong Khai. They asked why not bring those tanks to Bangkok so they can drive. From the news the reds got, people may make a coup at 20:00 tonight.

This morning the person in charge at Taxi Radio Station said, he has agreed with 10,000 taxi drivers that as soon as tanks are seen in Bangkok, drivers will block all streets with their taxis, lock and leave taxis there.

Which shows how clueless the guy at Taxi Radio is.

That just means lots of flat taxis, lost to their owners.

If you imaging the 'threat' of a taxi in the way will deter a tank you are dreaming.

Presumably all just loose talk in this instance - let's hope so.

But I wonder whether you are right in understimating soft power.Even now the image of that Chinese student in Tianmen Square with his plastic bags facing down the tank resonates.Yes the murderous Chinese party thugs won the day twenty years ago but who will be the perceived victor as history develops.I have a hunch it will be that wonderfully brave student.

If you look closely you will see that the Red shirt movement is actually moving towards being a Pro Democracy movement, rather than simply a Pro Thaksin movement. This is why their numbers continue to grow nationwide, despite thaksin possibly losing some of his popularity. it has become more than just about thaksin.......

I can see that the Reds have the potential to be a pro democracy movement (as opposed to the yellow shirts and their disgusting leadership) but do you have any evidence it has transcended its Thaksinite origins?

Having elections means suspending govt policies for about six months and then starting some other "emergency" solutions.

Besides, it's silly to believe reds calls for elections when they have repeatedly obstructed rival parties campaigning, dispersing Democrat rallies and attacking Democrat politicians.

They have no idea how to participate in democratic elections whatsoever and shouldn't be indulged until they change their ways, or it would simply reenforce the idea that shutting down opposing voices by force is part of democracy.

Yes, right, we should get rid of these stupid elections, they just disturb the business of running the country.

You can't have elections when one side is determined to physically beat the crap out of the other. It would be like Zimbabwe in some areas here.

I'm not sure this is a good reason, but generally I don't think this is a time for elections.This country is facing an economic crisis of the first order.By design or good luck we have a competent administration who should be allowed to concentate on essentials.The reds have made their point and should stand down.Thaksin should be allowed to stew in his own juice, and blowhards like Kasit should be told to pipe down.When elections do come -late 2010? - Thais should swallow their pride and international observers should be allowed for the full electoral cycle (not just to monitor the violence on both sides Plus mentions but also to ensure the military/elite group don't try and rig the result -as they tried last time round.

No, the location is not irrelevant, since you claim a direct connection to the airport to dispute that that protest site was mostly filled with peaceful middle aged people.

The Nuremberg Rallies were full of ostensibly peaceful middle aged people.

The reality is that many decent people, preoccupied with Thaksin's villainy, have been taken in by the quasi fascist PAD leadership.

What Fascists "look like"? Don't judge the content of a package by its appearance. Just because PAD has long hair compared to the stereotype of the shaven skinhead does not mean that they are any less fascist (and that stereotype isn not even true in Europe - many skinheads are actually leftists, and the Neonazi black block looks exactly the same as the radical left - long hair, black dress, etc.)

I would like to ask you kindly stop to write nonsense, you are making a fool of yourself.

actually, between Insight and Henry, this thread is getting better all the time.

No wonder such comments of "Insight" and "Henry" appeal to you - the intellectual level of this debate has now successfully been brought down to a beer hall slugfest.

I don't think the charm of Thai Visa is its intellectual content (more or less non existent), more its liveliness and high spirits and occasional illuminating observation.Clearly there are more than a few that drone on endlessly with their particular obsessions, some appearing to do little else with their lives.My rule of thumb is that the more frequent a poster the less real light he sheds on the discussion, not necessarily because what is said is wrongheaded but because we have heard it all before -sometimes to a mindnumbing degree.

Turning to the thread in hand, one amusing irony is that the arguments being put forward against the red terror are beginning to sound curiously similar to the arguments put forward a few months ago against their yellow equivalents.

It would be interesting to know which brand of car the PM owns and drives. Imported with extreme taxes included or made in Thailand showing a little sufficiency and a modicum of support for Thai industry?

Is he walking the walk?

I don't know. But he keeps flying to the UK. Good thing Mark has 2 passport (like Giles). It would be handy one day if he has to get away quick (like Giles).

Actually Abhisit is a rather poor target.His lifestyle is comparitively rather austere (as one would expect from a highly educated family with a strong tradition of public service) and I don't see any hypocrisy there at all.His Finance Minister is a flashier character -though oddly coming from a similar background to Abhisit - (he spent rather vulgarly silly sums on Hermes china I note:doesn't he know that a gentleman never buys his own china of furniture?): still it's his right to revel in his wealth which was made honestly.What's more he doesn't bleat on about self sufficiency to those much less advantaged than himself.

Everyone can play along, too.

Only now we begin moving into the realms of the inane and infantile.

Keep on playing alone.

Sorry if you're offended by pointing out your idle speculation for what it was and providing another example of equally viable idle speculation to highlight the futility of it.

Both of you shame yourself with this extended and useless exchange.If you can't behave like adults why don't pm each other to continue your bitch fight in private and spare us the juvenilia.It detracts from a quite interesting thread.

here the soi in the moo ban Bangkok (mid income or high income people): everything the same if you replace red with yellow. beside income it depends mostly on the education (see your chinese pharmacist).

Beside Berlusconi in Italy I don't know any European style democracy which can be compared with Thaksins TRT, PPP or PTP.

Yes, and the aims of what PAD wants has been defeated in Europe in 1945. Only in Spain it lasted a bit longer, until Franco's death in 1975.

Common sense and education does not necessarily go hand in hand though, sophism and education often does.

What is somewhat weird is that Westerners of an original liberal background are emphasizing with the PAD and the high income/high power groups they represent in a country which still is in terms of class structure, labor rights and wealth distribution on the level of early industrialization Europe against the aspirations of the large sectors of society the PAD has nothing but contempt for.

We do know that Thaksin was and is not the nicest person. He definitely is no humanitarian. But compared to what the PAD represents he is the lesser evil. In your terms - i prefer Berlusconi over Mussolini and Franco.

To compare PAD with Fascists shows lack of any education in European history. If you call them monarchists it might be partially right, but Fascists? Either you don't know what Fascists look like or you watch ONLY DTV.

The PAD was and is an alliance of a number of groups, most of which could not be described as fascist (though a minority were).However the PAD leadership did propagate a number of policies which can quite reasonably be described as fascist in nature.It is precisely because I have studied European history that I can make this assertion with great confidence.

Is there ANY basis to this allegation? Any specifics?

I told you I know plenty of people who restrain their spending, I don't see any reason to call them hypocrites. I don't know any proponents of sufficiency theory who live "double" lives.

I also know plenty of ordinary people who try to comply.I'm not talking about them but the country's political, business and social leadership who tend to mouth support for the philosophy, often for self serving reasons, but continue to live extravagant and wasteful lifestyles.

You mean to say that proponents of the theory don't practice it themselves?

Bang on the money

After reading more about this "self-sufficiency economy" model, it doesn't sound like a very good idea.

Maybe you should read some more. For example, there's a difference between "self-sufficiency" and "sufficiency". One was a model for small farmers presented a decade or so ago, the other is an approach to the whole economy that is built around knowledge and careful risk taking.

One needs to have lots of guts, or be totally shameless to critisise restraints in risk taking during current crisis. It's easier to critisise sufficiency economy instead, though it's basically one and the same thing.

I agree in current circumstances it's almost impossible to deny or refute at least the basic concept of the self-sufficiency model.However as Chang Noi pointed out in a recently posted quote understanding the idea is not enough:one needs to understand who (and I would say why as well) is interpreting them too.And in Thailand this I'm afraid means a few gallons of undiluted hypocrisy.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/03/30...on_30099135.php

Plus ca change.......

Is it possible to get anymore hilarious than Thaksin's comments yesterday? Below is the link to the full article by The Nation:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/03/29...cs_30099112.php

The excerpt that I couldn't stop laughing about is this one:

"The former premier criticised the government for spending money on populist policies, instead of sinking it in projects that would create jobs and income for the public."

I can just hear his clueless supporters yelling, yes, yes he is right, he knows all. Of course, this is the exact opposite of his position when he was PM.

Thaksin knows how clueless the majority of his supporters are so he can say anything and they will support it. I find it interesting how many on TV are also falling into his traps.

But isn't Thaksin making the point that in the context of the stimulus economic package, which I'm assuming he supports in broad terms, it's better to emphasize revenue generating expenditure that provides not only economic but social benefits as the real economy deteriorates.There's nothing odd about this and indeed it reflects a debate being had in many countries at the moment.As to Thaksin's broad "populist" policies the Democrats long ago adopted this as part of their programme.

With respect I think also you should avoid using sweeping terms like "clueless" for a huge number of Thais.Even a slender understanding would inform you this isn't the case.

My comment that Giles is mental was related to a post earlier that said he doesn't fit in Thailand because he has a western mindset, not to his book or current charges.

Another, unrelated point is that Giles, the seld proclaimed progressive leftist, has no qualms in sharing a stage with the likes of Chalerm, who was personally among the police, watching the crowds incited by Samak going on a rampage and murdering and burning students alive. Now they are both in the same political alliance. Marriage of convenience, huh?

What does all this tell about his political or academic integrity?

As for being coward - he is no Galileo, Galileo at least tried to defend himself.

Giles comment about a western mindset is perfectly rational.I have heard several well educated Thais say much the same thing.How on earth do you figure this is "mental"?

Winston Churchill said that if Hitler was to invade hel_l, he would promptly sign a pact with the devil.Politics brings strange partners together, eg Abhisit and Newin.

I think there's a consensus that Giles is a marginal figure, ideologically and politically isolated.I hardly agree with anything he says (though haven't read his recent book) but he is a man to be admired.In say ten years time perhaps this will be recognised more widely.Why waste your firepower on him, or is it just too much that someone says the equivalent of Gallileo's whispered "but it does move".

Former PM files defamation charges against FM

Deposed Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra today (March 27) sent his attorney to file defamation charges against the Minister of Foreign Affairs at the Criminal Court pertaining to the minister's insinuation that he wished to establish Thailand as a republic and position himself as president.

Attorney to Thaksin, Udom Brongfah, this morning traveled to the Ratchada Criminal Court to file defamation charges against Minister of Foreign Affairs Kasit Piromya, Thai Day dot com Company, and ASTV.

The charges were motivated by comments made by Kasit on the People's Alliance for Democracy stage on 3, 11, and 29 November 2008 when he accused Thaksin of wishing to form a republic.

Udom's case file dismissed the accusations and indicated that the sentiments had caused damages to the former Prime Minister. The Criminal Court had accepted the case and scheduled an initial hearing for June 1.

Udom stated that whether or not the charges would be pursued in the Civil Court was yet to be decided.

- ThaiNews / 2009-03-27

A few potential classics here:

Wonder if the defendent will demand Thaksin be present

Wonder if Thaksin's son will be called.

Wonder if any of the customers at the bar his son made the statement will be called.

Wonder how Thaksin's mention of a cartain number during his CM speech fits in with all this.

Wonder whether the incident on an airplane involving Thaksin a while back will impinge on this.

Wonder if Thaksin's sudden found acceptance of Thai courts mean he will return to accept their verdict against him.

You forgot to wonder whether Thaksin's charges against Kasit might be well founded.

Elsewhere he'd be a clear mental case.

As to who exactly is showing signs of being a "mental case" (the absurd charges of cowardice, the denial of what the vast majority know to be true. the overexcited and shrill tone) I leave to forum readers to decide.It's odd how discussion of this sensitive subject prompts otherwise fairly normal people to take leave of their senses.

Hats off to Johpa by the way -a welcome and refreshing expression of honesty

He is also an academic of

there's a reason he's referred to as "former" academic in the thread title...

he resigned last month

I'm guessing from your comment that you may not have much knowledge of university usage

Giles is, was and continues to be an "academic", to use that rather barbarous word, regardless of whether he is employed by a university or not.