garyk

17 hours ago, Psychic said:

I have mentioned this on the other thread in a slightly different way but I'll say it again.

 

I brought about 5 million baht here to buy land and build a home in the full realization I would never own the land.

 

I furnished it and improved the land at a cost of approximately, I'd guess, another 1 million baht.

 

I brought another 1 million in to buy a vehicle, plus motorbikes etc.

 

All from accounts that paid vastly more than anything available in Thailand.

 

Because I planned in taking my last breath in that house with my wife.

 

I was willing to deal with the nonsense of reporting every 3 months like a criminal, supplying a 3 inch pile of redundant paperwork every year to extend what amounts to a "visitor's visa", paying for the privilege of visiting my native country.

 

And in return I was told by Thailand's government that if I could show a certain income level, not one baht less, I would be allowed to stay in Thailand with my wife, put our child through university.

 

The rules of the game were that I would simply show adequate income and we would all just get along.

 

Realistically, living a normal, I'd guess it would be classified " middle class life" here as an aging couple we don't need anywhere near 40,000 baht a month to live.

 

We don't go to bars, our homemade food is cheaper and better than going to restaurants. 

 

If we want to party, being part of the social fabric we will do it at our home or visit friends.

 

It'd be nice if owning property and earning multiples of a Thai person's wage would somehow lead to some kind of permanent residence. If that included paying into a medical plan I'd be happy to.

 

But again, as has come up frequently, I need to either self insure or risk being cut off by private insurance companies.

 

But I don't need to keep massive funds here. Personally I have more than 7 million baht available on credit cards and could transfer at least another 3 million if I had to.

 

I am neither the "money means nothing to me" type on this thread or the "destitute falang" some think hangs around every corner.

 

I'm probably like most affected fairly well suited to life here.

 

I have a private pension plan from early retirement that easily meets the requirements.

 

I have low monetary thresholds for what I need to live here based on my lifestyle.

 

I have investments that garner decent yields every year in my native country that seem unavailable to me here and when necessary I was going to draw on them for things like a pool and a new car.

 

That is simply not going to happen anymore. I am not going to sink significant amounts of money into this country.

 

Because, in my opinion, they have reneged on a contract we both agreed to no matter how absurd I thought the conditions were.

 

I was told I needed to show a certain income level. I am willing to do what they require to show that level of income. I will allow them to access my tax information online.

 

Apparently that is not an option.

 

I'm not going anywhere. My life, my home and my family is here.

 

But I am not putting a dime more than I have to into the Thai economy.

 

Because they broke the contract.

 

I'll put the lump sum into a Thai bank and I'll put most of the withdrawals into my wife's account.

 

If foreign transfers aren't necessary, we'll move them back.

 

If that's a problem, I'll move more down, it was all going to her anyway.

 

I'm fortunate enough to be able to do that.

 

Some can't. They made a life here and expected the rules to stay the same.

 

But here's an important difference.

 

I, personally, knew 4-5 people who, to be honest were a little jealous when I came here.

 

They weren't coming here to marry and buy property when they asked me if Thailand was a good place to retire. You know, rent a 20/30K place by the ocean and live well on 100,000 baht.

 

I told them, sure. The bureaucracy is a bit of a bitch but otherwise life is good.

 

Now what do I tell them?

 

You got to sink tens of thousands of dollars into a Thai bank, report like a criminal every 3 months, tell the government every time you go stay in a friend's house, fill out paperwork to renew every year  and pay money every time you want to visit home.

 

No, I don't.

 

I say look at Mexico.

 

My buddy stays in Cabo (true he stays cheap). Beer's cheaper, market food's the same, beaches are clean, humidity is nonexistent, get a 5 year visa and come and go as you wish, a 1st world country is an hour away.

 

As I started this long rant by saying, I think I am typical of those I know of married "Falangs" in this country.

 

If you want to go back 10 years in bank statements you'll find I have fulfilled the 400,000 many times over.

 

Probably enough to take me from this mortal coil.

 

To me this is not about the money every month or the ability to fund a one time deposit, it is about a basic breach of faith.

 

The Thai government can do as they wish. As I am constantly reminded, even with family and roots and a social network, I am only "a guest".

 

No matter how long I stay here with the same wife, in the same house, contributing to the same neighbourhood...I just might be a cheat, working the system, taking advantage of poor Thai women to stay in this blessed country.

 

Well I like most long married " falangs" am not.

 

This is my home. The people I love most live here.

 

I do what I have to to play your bureaucratic, nonsensical game so I can stay with them.

 

I am the proverbial "small potato".

 

But you know those 4-5 people I knew who were thinking of retiring to Thailand.

 

They're not doing that anymore.

 

That 20-30 million baht each..100-150 million baht total over decades from me..small potato...isn't coming here anymore.

 

Multiply that by a few hundred thousand and it begins to look significant.

 

Not to mention I have friends come visit.

 

Then we do go to bars and restaurants.

 

The " guy with good ideas" I think has come up with another winner.

 

This is where they send someone home and say "come up with something" on Friday night and report on Monday with your "good idea".

 

Like no riding in the back of pickups.

 

Apparently, " looking busy" is more important than actually making sense here.

 

But this "good idea" is really going to hurt.

 

And since they are dealing with foreign government agencies it is not going to be as easy to ignore as a Royal Thai Policeman waving through a pickup with 10 children in the bed.

 

As always, we wait in anticipation for clarification.

 

Rant over.

 

 

 

 

 

 

One thing about it is, your in good company. I never did invest a penny here other than a pickup. But, I think I am the exception to the rule.

My hobby is birding,  I came here a few years ago and have traveled extensively. 

Every little town here has it's farang that has built a nice home, and drives a nice car. I used to ask the restaurant owners where the farang lived in the small towns I would stop in. They all knew where they lived.

I would hate to speculate on the untold million of dollars invested here like you have described.

Thousands and thousands of guys just like you all over Thailand.

Best of luck.

55 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

http://www2.bot.or.th/statistics/BOTWEBSTAT.aspx?reportID=157&language=ENG

 

What percent is it? 

banks.svg

Tell you what, if you will put 25 thousand dollars in my account, and leave it there for 3 months I will figure out what ever % you want figured... haha

Have a great evening, no offence.

On 11/3/2018 at 12:26 PM, HHTel said:

Your 'financial windfall' is based upon the embassies not issuing income letters.  In fact these letters are quite small in proportion.  The British Embassy issued only 3,000 per year.  I don't know the figures for the US and Australian.  Of those, some will not have the ability to deposit a lump sum or show an income.  If they can't meet those requirements then they may leave the country,  Those that deposit 800,000 in the bank are effectively putting their annual income into the bank in one go where previously they would have transferred money when necessary.

The end result is that those that leave is a net outflow of cash, those that prove income or deposit 800,000 in the bank doesn't affect the inflow/outflow of cash at all.  Annually that remains the same.

This 'new procedure' if it's verified by Thai immigration will cause a loss of cash into the country.

 

You should also take into account with your figures that a majority of expats here are working.  Japan, India and China for example, have no retirees in Thailand.  The same goes for Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam etc etc.

 

There is no windfall.

Wow, unbelievable.

What is going on is they are guaranteeing 800K in the bank, and to be seeded for 3 months? Even if it only means say 20K extra people / yr.  

If the letter was used then your money  was not seeded,  most  were living on ATM withdrawals and the Thai banks saw nothing but an ATM fee? Even if some people deposited it in a bank it was used very fast,  and not Seeded! Seeded is the key word here.

Now with seeding, the banks will see all the money going into an account and be left there for a minimum of 3 months.

No matter how you slice it or dice it, it is huge. 

So they target the U.S., UK, and the Australians that have a SS pension. 

It is a simple transfer of wealth. The question is, is it worth it for you to transfer you're wealth to them, and let them use as they see fit for 3 months a year?  I wish I had a deal going where you gave me 25K dollars every year for 3 months free. Haha. This has got to be one of the sweetest deals I have ever seen come down the pike in years. 

It is a huge windfall

Regards

2 minutes ago, merijn said:

In my opinion also but tell that to the Phuket Immigration.

I don't know why it is not accepted.

Wow????

54 minutes ago, merijn said:

That's correct PHUKET immigration will only accept affidavits (they are 6 months valid) from the effected countries if proof from an government pension fund is supplied.

Military pension is not accepted, only government pension.

This is to make sure that the monthly income is guaranteed for the next 12 months.

 

I thought a Military pension was a government pension?

59 minutes ago, HHTel said:

Even if those figures were correct (and they're way off), with TRILLIONS of baht flowing through the banks, do you think that our tiny contribution is going to make any difference or even be noticed.  Of course not.

I think the number of 54,458.625 people is way low IMO HHTel!

My extension is in CM each year. It is packed. I would say at least 25 retirement extensions / day are issued there on average, maybe more.

If we take 25 / day * 5 days * 50 weeks.  We get 6,250 retirement extensions / year. I think that is low balling it personally.

Now how many other Thai immigration offices would it take to get 54,458.625 people. The answer is 8.71338 offices?

Udon, Huy Hin, BKK, CM, and all the other immigration offices in Thailand that process retirement extensions. This number of 54,458.625 people is not only likely, but probably way to low IMO.

One other quick observation:

UK, US, Australia and most all developed country's are having a baby boom retirement explosion.

I would guess 99% or more,  have at least the 25K / year for the 800K baht seeding, and a pension to spend here in Thailand.

Thailand is in a very good position, all they needed to do was figure a way to insure the 800K to be seeded in a Thai bank. The embassy letter was there ticket to a financial wind fall.

Regards.

1 minute ago, marcusarelus said:

You realize that Thailand already has higher foreign reserves than the UK, USA, Germany, Australia and .........

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign-exchange_reserves

 

Simply put they don't need any more. 

Yes I saw that!

Regards

8 minutes ago, fforest1 said:

First a 5% return sounds to high.....34 or 17 million is hardly even coffee money when divided between all the banks for a whole year....

Not in my opinion fforest1, Every little bit helps and IMO it is a very smart move. A few million here and a few million dollars there adds up in a hurry. And 5% when we are talking about a few million dollars at a  time is doable IMO easily.

Of course thais is just my opinion. So disregard if you don't agree... ????

Regards.

Thought this might be interesting to some here? Didn't have $hit to do today so here goes.. haha

China, UK, U.S., Japan, Germany, France, + rest of the world = about 435,669 expatriates in Thailand. Got this from Wiki (2010).

I divided that by 2 (just a guess on the number of retired expats in Thailand) 435,669 / 2 = 217,834.5 retired expats in Thailand.

Then I took that number and multiplied by 800K that needed to be seeded in a Thai bank.

217,834.5 x 800,000 baht = 174,267,600,000 baht / yr. into Thai banks. So about 174.268 billion baht / year.

I converted this into dollars so it would be easy for me to identify with.  174,267,600,000 / 32 = 5,445,862,500 U.S. dollars. So 5.445863 billion dollars / year.

Now I divided this by 4, because the 800K baht needs to be seeded in a Thai bank for 3 months. 5,445,862,500 / 4 = 1,361,465,625  U.S. dollars. So about 1.361466 billion U.S. dollars guaranteed in a Thai bank at all times throughout the year.

Now a investment of 5% / yr.  = 1,361,465,625 x .05 = 68,073,281.25 U.S. dollars / year. So the Thai banks would get a pay day of 68.073 million dollars / year profit.

So, if there is 217,834.5 thousand people on a retirement extension = 68,073,281.25 U.S. dollars / yr minimum. Or 68.073 million dollars profit.

Just say that was halved that again. 217.834.5K people x .5 = 108,917.25. So that would equal a yearly income to the Thai banks of 68,073,281.25 / 2 = 34,036,640.6 dollars / yr. Or 34.037 million dollars / yr.

If we halve it again 108,917.25 x .5 = 54,458.625 retirees. That would be about 17.018 million dollars / yr profit.

Of course this is just speculation on my part. I wish I knew the actual number of retired expats living here?

But, it shows there is a very good argument that these new rules will result in a very nice pay day for the banks.

Not to mention the 800K seed money will most likely stay in the banks and be drawn down during the year.

So, if there are 108.917 K expats in retirement here then the total(guesstimated) value to the banks would be. 1.089172499 billion baht / yr. pure profit guaranteed.

IMO what the government is doing is wanting a guaranteed monthly amount invested in a Thai bank, strictly to generate a guaranteed payday. 

Smart IMO, and nothing wrong with that if the numbers hold up.

Personally I don't think it has anything to do with the income letters, it is a scheme to generate cash flow. 

Nicely done too.

Wonder who else will be joining the party before January 1? 

3 minutes ago, fforest1 said:

Agreed....But based on the past they seem to really like things unclear and murky......One office has one policy another office has a different policy....One officer says one thing and a different officer says the opposite. 

 

Man this is fun stuff....Make the farang crazy....Have a few laughs get more kickbacks and tips....

 

 

Haha, could not agree more. 

3 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

Disagree on all of it. 

You think other governments would have resolved it faster?  I sure don´t.

I am sure they are trying to figure things out.

As the 114 pages show, there are many opinions and offered solutions to this issue.

It is not a quick decision and the fact they are taking time makes me think they are trying to get it right.

 

Every option here was an option before nothing has been changed or added what so ever.

Disgraceful to the nth degree IMO.

Regards

With all due respect. 114 pages on this thread with only one piece of information. That is the American Embassy will stop issuing letters.

Personally I think it is disgraceful that TI has not responded to this in any way shape or form. 

Extremely poor way to do business, and a lack of respect for the expat community is appalling IMO.

2 hours ago, namatjira said:

If Mexico gets a little tricky you can always try going a little further south to Honduras.......there’s always a haven somewhere.

Been going to Mexico a lot lately. 

For about 1600 dollars a month you can get a temporary residence visa, and after 4 years you are eligible for residency. I think the temporary visa now is good for three years. If you have about 100K in the bank or investments in investment accounts, you can skip the temporary visa and go for the residency visa right out of the gate.

 Merida in the Yucatan, and around that area,  was about like Thailand as far as safety goes. IMO 

Some of the other states are kinda of dicy.

I get the same double pricing there as I do here, but after there awhile, and they get to know you it gets better. Same as here.

Last time there I meet some Hondurans that were heading back home and they were some nice folks. 

I love the food there, but I am a native Texas and love the Mexican food there and well as the Tex-me in Texas.

Heading to BKK in a few weeks to the Mexican embassy to see what it will take, for a Thai citizen to live there with me. Temporary retirement visa? or what is needed. Or if it is possible. I don't want to wast a lot of time but if I can swing it I will take my partner here with me.

I have a home a few hours from the Texas Mexico border and have an old pickup I drive down, so easy for me. But, I know allot of people from Canada and America that fly into Mexico. I wouldn't like it, but they love it. Many many snow birds there in the winter. 

Also I was in Colombia last year and it was really nice. Not as safe as southern Mexico or Thailand for sure. But, it was extremely cheap. About like Thailand, maybe cheaper. And the scenery was breathtaking. IMO much better than Thailand hands down. 

If the Visa situation here is too much for you there are many very nice places I like better than Thailand for long stay. And the visa rules are much easier. I have had a retirement visa here for years. But, have about made up my mind to get a little closer to home. 

Regards

38 minutes ago, JGregory said:

 

Last observation... look at the Malaysian My Second Home Visa http://www.mm2h.gov.my/index.php/en/
This looks to me like where immigration is headed here.  An Malaysia recently discontinued accepting Pensions for income or purchasing property.  The only acceptable method now is a substantial local bank account which you can't withdraw or move funds.

 

 

Wow, that is a pricy residency visa to say the least.

Makes Thailand look pretty good.

Never the less looks like I will be doing the Mexican hat dance, and a crash course in Spanish... ????

1 hour ago, RCS said:

If you look at all the news reports about recent immigration crackdowns it is just all about getting rid of foreigners working here illegally without work permits or living off of criminal activity.  It makes sense then that they want people living here without work permits to prove they have resources to live here without doing those things.  No deep hidden agenda here that I can see.

The hidden agenda as it stands is you need 800K in a Thai bank as the only proof? 

Kinda convenient IMO for the Thai banking community. If that is the only way to prove income.

Let's look at the recient criminals. How many older Americans and older British citizens have been rounded up in this crack down?

IMO it is a joke to the Nth degree and has $ signs written all over it. Especially when proving you have 65K / mo. coming into a foreign account to support yourself is exempt from the visa approval process.

My opinion only, and no offense what so ever intended.

34 minutes ago, Pib said:

 

 

Schawb has International accounts and US accounts.  Different animals...different rules....different minimum account opening requirements...etc. 

 

Trying to open a US Schwab account online may require you to have a U.S. IP address (easy enough with a VPN) otherwise the account opening page will be redirected to Schwab's nearest office for new applications based on your IP address.

 

But if trying to open a US Schwab account you will need to have a US address for the application.  Schwab does do hard pull credit agency report on each new application.

 

 

I tried to do a Schwab account online years ago here in Thailand and failed. I even called and talked to the manager at the branch where I live in the States. I finally gave up. And I own a home in the city where I was trying to open an account.

The next time I went home I went in personally to the branch and opened an investment account with no problems what so ever. But, I had to be there in person.

Hopefully it has changed.

28 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

Many do not have the money which to me is a self evaluation.

Others will justify it by telling themselves the bank will steal their money.

Both rather sad scenarios.

 

I think many have the 65K it would take to retire here with no problem. I think the problem is coming up with 800K at the drop of a hat. Most folks don't have that.

The rules have changed and it is leaving many in a tough spot. I can sympathize with them. 

Personally I think there should be a 65K cut and dried rule. If you make that every month and can prove it then great.

I also think TI does not want that and wants the 800K place in a holding account. I hope I am wrong.

2 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

To be clear this is what you fantasize about doing but have not done it yet? 

I did it for a couple of years before I got a retirement visa. I enjoyed it. But, I like travel. So not for everyone I guess.

18 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

So many on here are saying that they don't want to put 800K baht in a Thai Bank account because they can get a much greater return on that roughly US$25,000 somewhere else.

 

Maybe so. But then one has to decide just how much it is worth to them to live in Thailand as opposed to somewhere else.

Actually I agree with this. If I wanted to spend 24/7 here I would definitely put the money in the bank no problem.

8 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

Why don't you get sn account with no fees??

What is an sn account?

7 hours ago, Sheryl said:

This turn of events has gotten many people of limited means thinking and worrying about their financial situation here.

 

If you are one of these, I would like to add for your consideration:

 

(1)  don't limit your focus to just the immigration requirements. Consider also that the cost of living in Thailand has increased substantially in the past 10 years or so and will almost certainly continue to do so. Even if this does not lead eventually to raising the required income for retirement (and it may) it will certainly affect whether you can make ends meet. What you can live on today is not hat you can live on 10 years from now.

 

(2) You will almost certainly have significant medical expenses sooner or later. Thai hospitals will not treat you for free. Even in  government hospital it can cost as much as 1 million or more for a single hospitalization if you need prolonged ICU care and multiple specialized surgeries. And it is not as simple as just dying if you don't have the money (as some claim to be their plan). You face living with unnecessary disability and severe pain if you cannot afford the care you need. You face dying in horrific pain for lack of simple pain killers . Lying in your own filth because you can't afford a caretaker or nursing home. etec etc. I say this because, a few Veterans aside, most of the people with incomes below the threshold have neither health insurance nor sufficient savings to be considered self-insured.

 

I have seen some really horrific situations here resulting from this, ones that led to distance relatives back home having to be tracked down and persuaded (much to their outrage at times) to help pay for the repatriation of someone who could not pay for their care here. Lanna Care has been involved in many such repatriations as well - too many. And believe me, when it goes down like that, you don't leave with your dignity intact.

 

So please, think carefully and realistically abut your situation, and factor into your thinking not just present day costs and Immigration requirements but future costs and contingencies like illness as well.  Ask yourself if you are you really, truly situated such that you can provide for yourself in Thailand - in sickness or health, fit or disabled, independent or needing live in help or a residential facility - for the rest of your life, understanding that costs of doing so will likely continue to steadily rise?

 

If you cannot honestly answer yes, it will be far easier to make a well planned exit -  whether to a less expensive foreign country or back to your country of nationality - than to wait until things have become unmanageable.

 

 

 

 

The problem is that this canned statement is used no matter where you live. Whether you are in your home country or living abroad.

Tell that to the millions of poor Asians that come here for a better life!

Tell that to any one in the world that wants a better quality in life. And could get it by relocating. Even if for a few remaining years.

Tell that to the thousands of Guatemalans, Mexicans that jump the fence to get work and live a better life while they are still able. 

No offense, and I agree that it is a good thought. But not realistic in any shape or form. 

4 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Or buy an annuity

Explain please?