slipperx

Well I hope the original case never went to court as you cant charge someone twice on the same criminal charge!

Yes buy it in her name with a Userfruct in your name. Forget leases they are valuless - I have court cases to prove it.

You will not be able to sell it for her without a court order.

Best of luck.

What gets me is the utter incredulity of the lies that are being spouted to try to justify not bringing the RedBull kid to court to face justice. It is one unbelievable lie after another and now we have forensic experts pronouncing that a road death is accidental. You cannot examine a body and come up with that conclusion. People who carry out autopsies are not police. The squirming caused by trying to get Boss off is contemtible and utterly disgusting. And yet we are supposed to respect the place. Jeez

Some extra background to my case:

the Judgement also said that we should be charged for illegally trying to get around the restrictions on foreigners owning land.

The logic of this last point was due to us subscribing collectively for 49% of the company shares. These shares were be held for the duration of the lease ( and any extension), and to be returned once the lease expired. The lease structure was prepared by a Thai law firm, which is on the list of lawyers recommended by a number of Embassies, today. It was approved by each investor's personal law firm, in 2004. It has been used by 100's if not 1000's of apartment units sold, on Phuket alone. At Appeal, the Thai business man added an extra charge, that we had tried to defraud him. The irony of this part is he is a very successful business man, selling product to major non- Thai developers on Phuket. At the time of writing, there are apartments listed for resale, with similar lease paperwork registered in place. I have asked several developers and Property agencies if, what they are selling is legal . The answer is 'no problem'.

Now that our Judgement has been public, since early 2014, a number of law firms are reversing their long- standing advice. STILL, a number of law firms continue to say that there is nothing wrong our paperwork, except "maybe you should use a different set up for protecting your lease renewal option". so, legal advice in some cases is good for today - but you had better not go to court and have it reviewed by a Judge, as he may rule that you have nothing.

I think that the lesson learned is, no matter how careful you are with investing your money, in property, here in Thailland, no matter how good the advice you obtain from a law firm and a property agency, the advice may be useless, in hindsight. Because the system of regulations are not reliable. As Bill Barnett described it, you are safe if you buy from a major developer. The problem, is that, on Phuket, the major developers account for at most, 25% of the units sold. The 75% are subject to the laws of the jungle. And, although I love the country and would never leave, I and you are second class citizens. Excuse the length of these 2 posts. I hope there is some guidance i

maybe you should use a different set up for protecting your lease renewal option

In other words, you should use a different device for circumventing Thai law.

no matter how careful you are with investing your money, in property, here in Thailland

Had you invested in your own country and use the proceedings to live in LOS, you'd be sitting pretty now.

no matter how good the advice you obtain from a law firm and a property agency, the advice may be useless, in hindsight.

Of course it is.

The 75% are subject to the laws of the jungle.

"Due diligence" would have told you that.

I and you are second class citizens

Unless you have qualified for a Thai passport you are NOT a Thai citizen, and yes, all farangs are "second class" in LOS. How many zillions of times has it been said on these pages that our money is welcome in LOS, but us less so?

The lesson I learned in LOS over many, many years is never, never, never "invest" any money in LOS that I can't afford to lose.

It is heartening to know there are people like you who are so clued up on the Thai system. Somewhat less enthralling is the contempt in which you hold those who do not have your knowledge on the subject matter. Many people are coming to Thailand believing at least some of the hype and believing they can invest their money and that a system of justice exists that will not support scammers, thieves and cheats. Unfortunately the Thai system of justice, bent, corrupt gangs of lawyers who persecute foreigners and any lawyer who dares represent them, and judges who do not even try to apply the law in favour of a foreigner almost as if it is a loss of face on the whole country that a Thai could be a cheat, corrupt or otherwise scamming foreigners. The abject racism and scale of the problem is very much not know by all and sundry though I accept if you now know how to search and pick the right keywords you will no doubt find the horror stories.

The fact is most buyers are absolutely not aware of the facts as you know them or as I know them now. They are lied to by the TAT, lied to by the property industry, lied to by propaganda encouraging them to invest in the property industry, invest in Thailand, invest, invest, invest. One might be led to believe that with all the effort put into advertising Thailand as being a wonderful place to invest that there might actually be some laws that go to protect those who benefit the country by investing.

The reality is that you are on a hiding to a racist nothing here. Do not invest is right. Do not invest and do not believe a soul here because the lies are so plentiful it is impossible to find the truth that might lie somewhere. It certainly does not lie in the justice system that deserves to lead the Phuket property market into the annihilation because as a foreigner you will be targeted, scammed, lied to and led up the garden path by lawyers who have no morals and even less ethics.

However that is the story that needs to get out and your condescending tone to a retired couple is really unnecessary and in poor taste.

Sorry to be condescending, but the point of my post is to warn other persons coming to Thailand that all is not rosy in LOS.

Frankly though, I wonder at anyone that apparently invests significant amounts of money in a foreign country without doing significant research first. Would anyone that has been caught in a Thai scam have been so willing to give away their money in Nigeria or Sudan, for instance?

No I am sure they would not because those countries are very well known for their general lawlessness and don't pretend to be anything else. The situation here is probably notice better but the difference is the efforts made by the country to seek foreign investment and pretend it is a country worthy of its place as a welcoming country. None of that bull is contradicted by the Embassies that must know thecreal situation but step back from ever criticizing or publicicing that the place is just a lot of pretty wrapping paper around a country that is unfit for any investment except at corporation level and even that is debatable. The image is a shocking and perpetuated sham

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There seems to be some confusion as regards this case and also property ownership, however I believe "Sviss Geez" is correct when he states that the man already had a company formed that was a legitimate business, so under that premise, "ownership" of the house is permitted through the company route.

Of course no one can ever own the land unless you are one of the few who can invest 40 million baht, however going down the route described above is perfectly legal.

It is illegal to form a company with the sole intention of purchasing a property and forming a company which has no other activity other than owning this property. So from what I can see what he did was perfectly legal.

Someone else has suggested that his wife was perfectly entitled to do what she did with regards to the transferring of ownership because it was done under the marriage scenario, however the man has stated that they were not married, so that in effect seems illegal.

I also like what "NamKangMan" says when he states, "DON'T bring ANY western concept of "providing a home" for your family into a country that DOES NOT allow you to do so". And although this country does allow you to "provide a home" for your family, it doesn't allow you the same privileges as other countries do in as much as there you can own the land, but here you can't.

It does seem like this guy was screwed over and one has to remember that in a place as corrupt as Phuket, moneylenders and the like have contacts in very high places and of course the cash to be able to ensure that brown envelopes change hands to achieve the necessary results.

Thank you xylophone. Finally someone who has taken the time to read the facts.

I know many people on this forum just want to rent, go out to bars and shag a different girl every night - that's fine but not how I want to spend the rest of my life.

I know most people on here don't have a business whether with property assets or not and so don't care that your business can be taken over with s forged signature in a heartbeat. And worse that after being removed as Director you are powerless to do anything to protect any assets which can be sold off since it takes a very long time for the court to restore you. But there maybe some and it good to know the risk exists.

I know some, including a judge in one of my cases, thinks buying your home through a business is within the law. I thought using a business to simply hold a property was clearly outside the law as the business is not legitimately trading. I think in another case another judge could have the complete opposite point of view and find such a method illegal - that is the problem with the law - no one really knows and the Thais are not about clarifying anything because they WANT the abuse and confusion to remain as it assists the scams whilst maintaining a facade that is used to encourage foreigners to invest whilst allowing the criminals to steal the assets away.

I know some people will think that Thai leases registered at the land office are safe. In fact they are even less safe since they too can be taken with a single forged signature on a POA that does not even require a lawyer to notorise. That is absurd to my way of thinking and means that leases are worthless.

I have tried the three most common methods used by foreigners to provide some measure of security for investment whether in property or something else.

I understand my having a family with a girl 17 years younger than me is a distraction to the main issues here and one that can be sniggered at and used as some lame excuse to abuse me. I can handle that because I hope that for those who are not living from bottle to mouth or have such shallow lives that renting women and a room is their idea of a great life, may actually derive some benefit from exposing how things were stolen from me and my famiily destroyed through organized criminal money lenders and a pathetic system of checks and balances that allowed the crime to succeed so easily and afterwards the abject racism and corruption by lawyers and others in the justice system. These are the important lessons and signposts for businessmen and guys who actually value and enjoy providing a stable environment for their family and children.

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So Soda, wife #1 transferred Rance's properties out of the company, removed him as a company director, and had a forged power of attorney to eliminate the remaining 30 year property lease.

I believe wife #1 legally cancelled the lease on the family home, (using the right to unilaterally cancel any contract made within marriage) then sold it.

Apparently this was the ruling of the judge in the case.

The fraud charge was about forging a signature to change directorship in the company, a company solely created to illegally buy Thai land.

Not much sympathy here either, foreigners are only allowed to own 49% of a Thai company, preferred shares, and shares held by nominees seem illegal to me.

You might also like to check the law on property projects.

What is clear is no one really knows the law and those that just say don't touch anything to do with property may be very wise but they are not giving any information on the law at all.

As for fraudulently cancelled leases I bet there are thousands with leases from their partner here. So they are all idiots and fools? There are thousands who also use companies to buy a house here which the judge said was the preferred method - is she wrong? The answer is about the way the laws are so loosely written, the corruption used to get a decision you want by foul means and the interpretations from case to case depending on the whim of the judge hearing it because there is no complete law of precedent and even where Dika cases are relevant the court if first instance can easily twist the reasons for dismissal in a dozen ways to avoid following it. The end result is a Justice system wholly and greatly unjust towards foreigners for multiple reasons I will not go into

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So Soda, wife #1 transferred Rance's properties out of the company, removed him as a company director, and had a forged power of attorney to eliminate the remaining 30 year property lease.

I believe wife #1 legally cancelled the lease on the family home, (using the right to unilaterally cancel any contract made within marriage) then sold it.

Apparently this was the ruling of the judge in the case.

The fraud charge was about forging a signature to change directorship in the company, a company solely created to illegally buy Thai land.

Not much sympathy here either, foreigners are only allowed to own 49% of a Thai company, preferred shares, and shares held by nominees seem illegal to me.

Not legally married and cancellation was by fraud. Read Section 86 and 94 of the Thailand Land Code. I did not have over 49% of shares but was major investor and required Director to sign. This is very normal in Thailand,

So what you are basically saying is fraud is OK if against a foreigner?

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I'm very interested in reading more about property scams, less about the involvement of Thai wives./ women.

My problem is not my wife ( who is a westerner).

I will try to start a new forum topic, hoping to see posts about your ( or friends) experiences with recent developments in the application of regulations for

-apartment leases,

- the condo 49% rule being abused by developers

and so on.

I have a case in Supreme Court at the moment, appealing against a judgement which cancelled my entire lease and against a loan shark who seized land and building, under dubious circumstances.

As I am a relatively recent member, would appreciate knowing if there is such a forum already?

DO NOT EXPECT JUSTICE

You have already been shafted in the courts, possibly with the connivance of your own lawyer (named som sak by any chance?)

Loan sharks are influential and will grease the works. Some banks aren't much better. Some crooks at the "yellow bank" almost sabotaged my 30 year lease in PKK provincial court. After 20 years in Thailand, I have found that there are good and bad police, but good lawyers are rare indeed.

PM me for advice

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Why a young wife would forsake everything she build in this marriage for the money? There must be something fishy going on behind this so called fraud. The title of "Defrauded by his Thai wife" is not accurate and unfounded.

No Mary it is accurate and well founded. You obviously don't know how the criminal fraternity which is prevalent in Phuket works. I am at court today. Just met a German man who told me the prosecutor here is corrupt - that is at least 5 people who have knowledge who have said that though I am not yet involved with the prosecutor. I met someone works for the foreign consulate also who said there are dozens and dozens of French people she has met over the last four years who have been similarly scammed.

The whole scale of scamming foreigners is just totally hidden with good reason yet people try to find some way to excuse it. Why? It exists through the police, the prosecutor and the courts which means the entire justice system. And as a foreigner you are not only at a disadvantage through not understand the copious amounts of paperwork that is cost prohibitive to translate but the lawyers hide papers from you and collude with the other side. Yet no one seems to be interested that this is all going on - just accept Thai culture and embrace it I am told.

I want to care for my kids, not cheat anyone nor live my life telling lies. I don't want a life of sexual outlets who pass through a daily revolving door and a life that is totally shallow so excuse me for not embracing all Thai culture has to offer.

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And there you have it. I apologize to all TV members for being fat and wearing red trainers on the beach with the kids for an hour.

Hey,nothing wrong with being fat, lots of us are.

It's the being fat (and old, and a foreigner) then marrying a 20 year old that you believe loves you and can be trusted, that gives us the problem.

Gold-diggers can't be trusted, and shouldn't know anything about your business or finances, if you don't want to be fleeced.

I don't think I have ever said much about my feelings or otherwise. This idea has come from multiple posts assuming this and assuming that based on the posters own predilection.

Anyway I was not 60 and she twenty but it matters not because most have their own ideas and it is a waste of time to try to change that.

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Pages and pages of posts focusing on the wife and how fat the bloke is.

Hardly any posts regarding the key point here that this fraud involved Land Office officials and Police committing crime with impunity protected by their state positions.

The wife was with him for 9 years before the fraud. She probably has a P4 education. She was nothing but an easily controlled and intimidated pawn to this gang. Where is she now? In prison, like a good pawn should be.

Who has the money? Not the wife.

Everybody missing the point as usual.

And there you have it. I apologize to all TV members for being fat and wearing red trainers on the beach with the kids for an hour. Perhaps people will accept that and move on to the points at issue which is the fraud, organized crime and complicity of the legal system in perpetuating it. There are so many inconsistencies it belies belief!

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just watched the video and it would seem to me the best advice would be to stay single. I have properties here in company names not a problem for me in the last 16 years as I do not have any Thai girlfriends sign on any company paper work don't mix business with pleasure.

THEN THE FOOL GOES AND RE MARRIES AND GOES DOWN THE SAME ROAD AGIAN HAVING MORE KIDS.

HE WILL NEVER LEARN.

YOU CAN LEAD A HORSE TO WATER BUT YOU CANT MAKE IT DRINK!!!!!!!!!!!

There you go again calling someone a fool when you do not know him, his situation or his new wife. He's the one who got burnt, don't you think he knows better than you with guards up, whether to trust his new wife or not? She obviously is not of the same ilk or he wouldn't have, whereas you judge people by race.

Whether he tried to circumvent the law or not is not really my business. I do know he was a success in Thailand and abroad and he speaks with intelligence and clarity about the political and legal situation in Thailand, so he is not a fool like you seem to delight in saying.

However you, like so many others seem to suffer from tall poppy syndrome and enjoy kicking a man when he's down because it makes you feel better about yourself. This is apparent in your screaming in capital letters your judgmental contempt for the man and your delight in his situation is plainly obvious.

You must not be aware that he is reading and contributing to this thread, or if you are aware of that, then you show little common human decency.

It's not just kicking a man when he's down. It's also warning others that think circumventing the law is OK in Thailand that it's not. The Thais may not abide by the rules, but when it goes wrong, it goes really wrong. If others that were thinking of buying property or going into business in LOS think again because of this, it is worth it to post on here.

Here is the brainwashed - circumventing Thai law nonsense again. What does it mean? Does it mean if you take a lease which is within the law and that lease is cancelled by fraud but the court doesn't like foreigners so you have 'circumvented' something? Does it mean if you make a business but some Thai wants to steal it the the court will decide you have circumvented Thai law because it suits them?

Or does it mean that the laws themselves will be interpreted in every way against a foreigner and it his wife but not the foreign wife of a Thai husband because the judge has s racial prejudice against wives of foreigners?

The law is the law but it is open to interpretation in the extreme. Phuket court decided my lease means nothing and the assets of companies I am involved with can be stolen at will. I think that interpretation is wrong as it is not what the law says.

However I agree no one should invest anything in Thailand until the law provides security and judges can be held to account deciding on the evidence presented which no one defendant has managed to challenge leaving the judges to make up their own evidence to ensure I cannot win. That is not justice or application of any legal principle and neither is it a circumvention of the law but using the law as it is written. The fact that no lawyer here really knows the law makes the whole system a farce as even those who have experience and are not corrupt are at the whim of the judge since precedent is very weak here.

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https://www.google.com/search?q=patsy+definition&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

pat·sy

noun: patsy; plural noun: patsies

• a person who is easily taken advantage of, especially by being cheated or blamed for something.

A fraud of this magnitude (and value) requires careful planning. It is organised crime of the first degree. No doubt Ian's wife was approached (and perhaps even conditioned or threatened) into cooperating with the criminals. They already knew that she could easily be offered up as the Patsy because she is a dark skinned farmer's daughter with no patronage connections. Ian has been defrauded, but there is little doubt in my mind that his wife was also a Patsy. And so she, in a way, was also defrauded, or at best betrayed. The Thais that lured her into cooperating have no doubt done this in the past and will no doubt continue to do the same in the future...each time further refining their technique and the story of promised riches told to the young and uneducated wife.

Without a doubt Ian's wife is just as much a victim, this is why Ian's anger is not necessarily directed at her. First of all you have the brokers who do all the scouring for potential victims, these brokers get a commission for referring someone to a money lender, normally the commission is shared with a higher profile broker who is the one that has the direct contact with the money lender, all it would have taken was a friend/sister/cousin to say that she knows someone who can arrange quick loans and the trap is already set.

Ian's wife will have had all sorts of assurances from these brokers that everything will be OK, such as assurances that the lender having the property transferred in their name throughout the loan term is merely a procedure, and that under no circumstances will it be possible for her to lose the property, they will have assured her that when the loan term is up they will simply extend it, as the person at the land office is also getting a cut they will also make these loose verbal assurances. The actual money lender himself would not have had much involvement.

Another common practice used by these brokers is the promise that the initial loan from the money lender can be replaced by a legitimate bank loan before the term is up, and that they will actually help them to get the bank loan, the broker will of course have a "contact" at the bank who can arrange this, this very often will turn out completely false and once the borrower finds out its normally too late.

Unfortunately for Ian this scam is not limited to farangs, this can happen and is happening on a daily basis with Thais. Where you have 1 case like Ian's you will have a thousand more cases of Thais being screwed over in exactly the same way, this is why Ian will not get anywhere with the courts. As he has found out the only thing to come out of it will be a counter sue for defamation, and as we all know, these crooks will not stand back from kicking a man while he is down !

I am pleased to see someone who seems to understand the reality and maybe the complicity of the courts in allowing these crimes to go unpunished

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In the civil cases where I was defrauded of shares and directorship I had no power to sue anyone because I wasn't the Director registered at the business office and therefore had no power to sue. The court was generous enough to restore me as true Director and shareholder in the asset stripped company. So those with businesses know that it takes a day to change Directors through fraud and after that as the criminal committing the fraud you have free reign to sell the assets and nothing the true Director can do about it until the court order is given to put you back which takes at least a year.

If you think you have any protection as an investor and business person in Thailand then you are deluded.

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For those with leases - you might like to know my civil case was dismissed on grounds of no power to sue the people who conspired to cancel the lease and buy the house at a knock down price. According to the judgement as I was living and eating food together with the owner the lease is of no effect and on the judges own idea such leases are only taken by foreigners to stop the wife / owner from running away.

So leases taken where you live with the owner are fair game for criminals to do as they please with.

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the story does not add up

something is missing

the wife did not benefit

why did she do it for no monetary return?

so she went to jail for nothing?

Perhaps she received nothing because it was already "pawned away" for quite some time. Paper was "held" for a debt that was not payed?

or maybe, she has 75% of the stolen money hidden away somewhere ....... ready to finance her future when she gets out.

I seriously doubt she was that shrewd...

https://www.google.com/search?q=patsy+definition&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

pat·sy

noun: patsy; plural noun: patsies

• a person who is easily taken advantage of, especially by being cheated or blamed for something.

A fraud of this magnitude (and value) requires careful planning. It is organised crime of the first degree. No doubt Ian's wife was approached (and perhaps even conditioned or threatened) into cooperating with the criminals. They already knew that she could easily be offered up as the Patsy because she is a dark skinned farmer's daughter with no patronage connections. Ian has been defrauded, but there is little doubt in my mind that his wife was also a Patsy. And so she, in a way, was also defrauded, or at best betrayed. The Thais that lured her into cooperating have no doubt done this in the past and will no doubt continue to do the same in the future...each time further refining their technique and the story of promised riches told to the young and uneducated wife.

I concur.

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One more point. Though often the case she was not gambling. My youngest boy was just a few months old when this started and she was looking after him pretty much all the time. She was not out at night and was home with the kids of with me nearly all the time - such is normal with a young family.

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How did you not know what was going on? That is really hard for me to understand.

At this point, I don’t see any way for you to win in this situation. You make it sound like these guys are well connected and good at what they do so they probably are not worried about you at all but if it ever looked like you were getting the upper hand legally there is no doubt in my mind they would find an alternative lethal solution to the problem.

Maybe but one has to live with oneself and to just give up and run away is not something I would like to wake up with knowing every morning for the rest of my life.

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"Don't come here," he says, but now he's married a new girl half his age and still living in Thailand.

Read above - one of the conspirators sued me back and the court has my passport likely for many years as his case against me cannot proceed until my case against him finishes through the appeals court. I have no choice except stay in Thailand

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One more point. Though often the case she was not gambling. My youngest boy was just a few months old when this started and she was looking after him pretty much all the time. She was not out at night and was home with the kids of with me nearly all the time - such is normal with a young family.

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the story does not add up

something is missing

the wife did not benefit

why did she do it for no monetary return?

I'm not going to read 22 pages to check, but I think she got into debt with bad people and shafted him to pay them off.

I think people need to think about exactly that. The answer is to follow the money. The money ended up with the money lenders who distributed some to facilitate the fraud and no doubt are now distributing a little more to fight me. It is not hard to see these things and there is evidence to support that supposition. However proving the complicity of third party facilitators is very hard since the money lenders bank accounts show only cash in and cash out to leave no trace. With tens of millions a month in and out I think it is clear what they are doing but it doesn't wash with the courts. Practically the only way in the Thai courts to prove someone knows is by admission as there is never a record of corrupt payments nor is there any discovery even if there were. Even overwhelming evidence is not enough and the gang members will not give evidence against each other either.

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let this be a wake-up call to everyone marrying their beloved Thai wives, is it really love? and how far would your wife go before she chose money over you!

Unfortunately the stick and carrot rule the hearts of Thai people, and the only love that seems real is Thai rak Thai.

If she wanted money she could have just divorced and taken one of the houses to sell on the open market. No 80% markdowns, no 48% interest to pay back and she would not be in prison, the children would still have a mother and she would have a life.

So that leads you to a different place which is the reality of being herself conned, cajoled, threatened and all the other tricks played by these marauding gangs targeting comparatively rich foreigners which they think will just run home and anyway get no justice in a system they control with the money they have stolen and connections in the justice system and particularly the lawyers

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It is interesting this this thread has gotten so much viewing and responses. I have a feeling- many believe- that there for the grace of God- go I; This can happen to anyone in any country given circumstances of wealth and fraud. It does happen more in Thailand than anywhere else I have ever been. Part of it is the inherent gullibility of people in general; people looking for love in the all wrong places; couples not being able to communicate; and a lax legal system. I don't condemn anyone if this happens to them. I shall not call them stupid or ignorant. However, reading over these posts- I was almost inclined to go to Soi Cowboy, grab a grog and a girl and have a chat. I asked my wife if I should go and she said yes with a nice Thai smile, except when I looked in her eyes, she really meant- don't even think about it. Communication, my friends- ever so difficult in Thailand! Those who have been here for awhile will get the point. I can always go to Soi Cowboy some other time.

I think you summed it up with "there for the grace of god go I"

We are in a country that works in a different way to our homelands. I think they have it right. Should foreigners be able to buy land and houses Thailand would be much like England by now.

Last time I went back I didn't see many English people.

We have to make our choice and if we want to settle we have to trust someone with whatever we are investing for our future. We then have to behave as the whole system is made to claim back what belongs to Thai's and Thailand. To win here you have to choose your partener very carefully , you have to take care of them well and in return you can have paradise.

Alternatively don't trust anyone and rent a condo , I don't like that choice I think it would lead to a lonely old life.

I suppose it can all go wrong at any point as moods change as do circumstances. I have put a huge amount of work into building my own paradise and I don't own it I am I suppose simply a guest.

My wife says we are all guests and the land we live on belongs to all that lived here previously. She prays to them and asks that we can use it. This is why she has a shrine to them and makes offerings.

I don't. I simply try and take care of my family here and I think they can see I love them and they return that.

I think there must be a little more to this story.

I am simply trying to take care of my family too. The issue with property here is confused and not at all clear. Leases are supposed to be fine are they not? Now I am not so sure. One of the judgements says foreigners can use the business method to own property - it says so very clearly. I do not think the issue is clear at all even for Thais because the law is such a mess and so unclear.

Thailand should make the position totally clear through robust and clear laws. It doesn't. Why?

Many here write what they think but the law is not written like that and we have to follow the law. I thought I was. And this has been going on for so long Now yet nothing is done to clarify the law because Thailand is afraid of the effect on investment which they want on the one hand but don't want on the other.

Obviously my advice now is do not invest a penny here because if you cannot rely on the law for protection then there is no basis for any business

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What "racist mindset"?

Maybe Thais simply don't want Imperialistic Farangs to take control over the country, and there are good reasons for this.

You will find out if you are ever dragged into the legal system

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dont try and get around the law by using company purchase and proxy. You can legally own condos so if you dont trust them issues do that. Sorry he's obviously a nice guy but he was acting illegally to get over land ownership laws here and so suffered the consequences. I got over that problem long long ago by simply putting everything 100% in my wife's name. Maybe im lucky after 30+ years here.

Woman got caught in loan sharks hands probably due to gambling and so while I'm not making excuses for her she was probably totally desperate.

What i nor my This wife can ever understand is how a mother as here they often do dont care for theirs own kids one bit.

He must have known it was illegal to own land and so has himself to blame.

If it's illegal to take a lease why do the land office register them. If it's illegal for a foreigner to be involved in a business why are foreigners allowed to invest here ? If having anything to do with property is illegal for foreigners why is the Bangkok Post, local newspapers and advertising hoardings so full of advertising if property in English. No the laws do not prevent these things because the country wants to receive the foreign income which prevents the country imploding and then uses the legal system to support crime simply because it fits into the racist mindset which deserves no place in the law. If the Thais don't want it then bake the laws clear - it really is simple to do and would stop people being duped by lawyers and what they see around them. I am sure with 30 years experience you know the traps but most investors do not have 30 years to check out the lie (sic) of the land

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You have got to be kidding, I know many personally who have lost their lot and many more stories that I have heard many times over from others on casual meetings. It goes on and on all the time and it never ceases to amaze me that some very otherwise intelligent and successful businessmen seem to leave their collective wit at the airport locker room and do everything different here in Thailand. You really have NO RIGHTS here, get use to it, be prepared to lose the lot if you want invest put your money into Thailand. Up to you how you play your game, I will play mine my way, that way I stay in control all the time, they can't get my house/condo/lease/shares if I don't have any.

No im not kidding, I have never met or know anyone who has met a farang who had a Thai wife forge his signature to sell any property. Farangs buying property and "gifting" it to a Thai GF who then dumps the farang yes, but this is not illegal and does not require the Thai GF to seek the help of crooked lawyers to forge any signatures.

One interesting link with regards to the Colin Vard and Ian Vance stories, despite both of them being married with children the "family" properties were kept well away from the wife and held by a company 100% controlled by the farang (or at least they thought so). It makes you ask the question, would we be hearing about these stories if the farang simply put the house in the wifes name ?

Look at the resulting scenario we have by the farang choosing not to do this. The relationship already starts off badly with the wife losing face by being told she cant be trusted and that the property will be kept out of her reach. The wife who is not getting any younger is then asked to give up her life by raising 3 of the farangs children, the mother having zero financial security knowing that the properties will never be hers, she has to live with the fact that one day he could dump her and the 3 kids for a younger model, leaving her with nothing. In other words what they are basically proposing to the wife is "you can marry me, live in my house and spend the next XX years of your life raising my children and doing my laundry, but dont expect anything for it !".

Could Colin and Ian's decision not to give the mothers any long term security be a contributing factor in what they did ?

I'm by no means making excuses for these ladies, but it could be seen as a motive.

What a lot of drivel. Apart from the fact I had already bought land for her in her home town why would any foreigner start a business all in the wife's name. As for the rest, she would have it all eventually if she did not betray her family. It is no motive at all,

The motive is with the money lenders, crooked lawyers and a host of others jealous, greedy and criminal who managed to persuade and cajole with the Thai love Thai crap, lies and deceit. I know in my case and in Colin's case the start of it all was on a very small level the women thought they were smart enough to handle but once you have done one thing wrong you have played into the hands of criminals who will use the fact to extort, threaten and cajole to get what they want. Those are the people along with dozens of other Thais with no morals or compunction who assist and turn a blind eye. Despite the huge amount of evidence both I and Colin have gathered, somehow the justice system finds a way to excuse these pitiful people of their crime for no good reason at all. The lawyers are the worst because to date every single one save the one I am now using has worked against my interest but corruption whilst easy to see is incredibly difficult to prove if the judge wants to look the other way. These money lenders are well advised and very adept at screwing you over and not at all stupid which is the BS they try to tell the judges who do not want to question it. You can wonder why that is the case but I will not say what I think as the contempt laws here are strong

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