oldsparrow

What industry? I have never worked in Thailand (Looking for something) but I have seen many PBX's and MDF's in the country - all make US/AUS/UK Standard seem very poor, so i have to disagree with you.

Before i moved Thailand i was a Sr. manager in hi-tech industry in US and now I have a Facial massage shop MBK

Your direct experience is natural. The personal qualification, benefit and career path of the employees in your 2 business circle are simply very much different. Your US employees may work to send men to Mars. Your Thai employees may do anywork to send some Bahts to their folks. Your Thai employees may just spend half of the day dreaming of other career. Your massage product suppliers may do the dealing part-time etc.

IMO, the practical comparison should be service quality/Baht between your shop and other massage shops.

whatever the reason for canceling. You've been in thailand long enough to know already its not a stable country and yet you keep coming. Example of unstability in thailand are 1. in the past 30 years 18 military coups 2. Continued problems in Thailand's Southern Region for the last 5 years 3. Bombs that exploded in bangkok during new years day ( although it didn't really make a lot of news, and casualities were not high

I really don't think that's right. That would be a military coup every 2 years (less, actually). But, I'm not denying your claim that Thailand in an unstable country. The most reliable information I came across indicates that there has been 11 military coups since 1932.

Coup / Coup attempt in the last 30 years.

1. In April 1981, failed. The attempt got nick name of "The April Hawaii"

2. In Sept 1985, failed. One day coup attempt. 1 ABC reporter killed from stray bullet.

3. In Feb 1991, Successful seizure of power.

4. In Sept 2006, Successful seizure of power.

The Australian reporter was the only foreign casualty in all coup since 1932

From my experience:

ie. Seniority concern:

In the J. gov. office they go back home in order according to the rank. The senior go back first then the next and so on. The junior can't go back before the senior. Even if they have finish the day work they have to show that they devote themselves to the organisation and for whatever season. So everyday, the director go first then the deputy then the 3 4 5 6 guys in th office. And no body can get up immidiately after the senior one. So there is a gap between every body in the rank and file. The most junior one turn off th light lock the door and leave the office last.

They don't expect foreigner to be like this. They just know foreigner can be like them but this is just sample for their consideration of proper working culture.

In my experience, it's much more easier to talk to the J. on TL or explain TL to the J than to the Westerners. It's is easy for J. to accept TL as it is, no matter they like it or not. They don't ask why T. do this? Why T. do that? We don't this don't that in our country. It's natural for them that because this is Thai people and they do different because they are Japanese people. In their office they may enforce they rule but they don't think it's good idea to install J. things to TL. It's simply impossible these people are not J. They do things their way.

To end any curiosity I can simply say "Because it's Thai way." "Because it's the rule of the land." They naturally accept this and becaue of their greater concern of saving face value they don't make negative comments to the local counterpart.

From my experience of having J. counterpart for many years, "if you can't manage the Thais, leave the Japanese alone."

Saving face

Social status

Seniority

Social manner

Ethnocentric

etc.

The J. value them 100 times more than the T.

The country is great for holiday though.

Anyone thinking of leaving Thailand if Thaksin comes back to power? I am planning to give back my Thai ID and return to Germany should Thaksin ever comes back to power in Thailand.

Good for you ! In such case I have to get a spare passport first, may be the Nicaraguan one.

Don't be throwing trash on the floor just because some Thais do. Be firm with the Thais in a polite manner. Don't be beating up any old grannies

There is a very god meaning here. The people with respectable behavior in TL is not the majority (although for safety sake you can't display your real feeling toward the unrespectable ones). So, nobody should use unrespectable samples, ie. corruption, as an excuse. Anyone can always find worse samples and end up unrespectable himself.

You guys do realize, expats are seen as "outsiders" here in the western world. Many folks call us crazy for leaving to a poor country like Thailand, but also a big part, does understand. Now: Why do we "westerners" who have got everything, want so badly to a 3rd world country ( for instance Thailand ). And why do some Thai's want to go to a "western" developed country? I think it's al part of the discovery and journey. It has been written and prooved, that when you have been a longer time in a country like Thailand, and then you return back home, you see life in a different way than before, which most other people who are living there are not seeing. All this makes it hard to explain, when the question comes : " Why on earth want to move to Thailand " ?

For the poorer and less educated one they can have more safety net and opportunity in lives for the same profession. ie. Taxi driver, waiter or men who sign up as private in the military.

For the educated one. They go west for they can make much more money from their skill. Many student abroad get attracted by better offers. Most scholarship student has to comeback according to their contracts. To avoid the braindrain the gov. scholarship contract termination term requests 3 times compensation of the money they had spent on the student.

In my experience, the gay population here is very active. Furthermore, there is a shocking lack of knowledge or care about condoms among younger Thai gay men who are not involved with the tourist sex industry- all the more shocking because they would theoretically be one of the highest risk groups. That being the case, the chance that lower risk groups know about this important information is that much smaller. In my not-terribly-scientific experience, there is also an age divide. Thais over 25 seem to know much more about safer sex- not surprisingly, since they caught the end of the previously very effective public campaigns to raise public awareness of HIV risks and safer sex. It is a dark reminder of how successful those campaigns were- how ignorant so many of the younger people are now that they are no longer funded. I don't care that much about 1 to 300, 1 to 150, or 1 to 50- those odds are all too great a risk to life. Safer sex or no sex.

Yes in the late 80s -early 90s there had been a lot of anti HIV infection campaigns on TV on the buses etc. The safe sex campaigner like Khun Meechai was frequently mentioned in public arena.

That Thais and Indians don't mix is something of an urban myth today. *** From my experience. They are the most traditional minority in TL. They have been here for generations yet they don't mix, the family simply want Indian in law. They love to staty in their business circle and I NEVER encountered Indian in bureaucratic and gov. circles. Many have very good education but it seems they prefer to go to private University like the ABAC than the gov. ones. In the old day the favorite job for them was private security for the riches' house for thier big physic. The typical business is tailoring, peanut vending (the poor one). Howver, many are very rich real estate and stock market investors. PS: When the Sikh do military reserve training or regular military service they wear special turban instead of the beret or Arny cap.

And your Thai-Chinese do mix outside their circle (which is indeed much larger)? Not in my experience. Nowadays, you do see Thai-Indians of the newer generation mixing more and more. I believe there are several that are members of RBSC and others higher class clubs. They do indeed tend to shun the visible political roles, but they certainly are politically active. I know several that are married to ethnic Thais, but I have no idea how the family feels about it. As far as the turbans in the military, that is true of Sikhs everywhere. I note you did not respond to how many Thais actually go to school in India. Your crack on "peanut vending" confirms to me your claimed credentials as a 30+ Thai-Chinese. TH

In my understanding, the Chinese and the Thai are so mixed that sometime people ask are you Thai or Chinese regardless of our look. How many Thai PM you think the looks can be passed as Chinese? This Abhi, Thaksin, Banharn, Chuan, Anan. All of them have Chinese blood. Look at the old photos and even old Buddha image in Ayuthaya Temple you see that the distinct Thai appearance. In his book, William Skinner of Cornell U., quoted the contemporary farang source that the Thai population in 1900 was less than 5 million. In early 20 Cen. China experienced severe internal conflict and so many moved to TL. It appeared that Gov. (Royal) service was the assimilation process in the Thai feudal system. The Chinese who choose to serve the crown became “Thai” they discarded Chinese culture/tradition and adopted the Thai one. Those who did not remain Chinese. Both had the same purity of Chinese blood. This was notion of the land. Family culture culture determines social identity. The mass Chinese influx caused some discontent and anti some Chinese movement. The Chineseness in question was the social and cultural identity not the genetic.

Ie. In early 20 cen. There was an article complaining the Chinese in TL. They came to live in TL yet they behave like perfect foreigner. They make profit and they send money out etc. The writer used pen name but it was generally known that he was no one less than the HM. King Rama 6. (On the throne between 1910-1925) (This is not critical information, the whole article and surrounding information was in grade 7 history school book published by Min. of Education). The King meant the Chinese who behave very differently and ready to jump the ship only not the people of Chinese blood in general. Ample to support this argument. The King set up his personal guard regiment the “Tiger Force” เสือป่า One of my great grand dad who must look perfectly Chinese was a medical officer in this regiment. How could he be if the Thai society and political system closed door to the Chinese and they didn't very well mixed?

Another ie. During the 30. Strong Thai nationalism of Marshal Phibune led to sore relation with the Chinese community. The champion of Thainess Phibune himself had the red Chinese altar at home…

Thus, to my understanding any estimation of Chinese percentage among Thai population should be conducted with family culture as main focus otherwise the result will be just the reflection of people’ complexion and physical appearance without real meaning of the lifestyle.

The blood are so much mixed people choose family culture ID (as Thai or Chinese) at will. This can only be the result of mass assimilation between the Chinese and the Thai at every level of the society.

For number of Thai go to Indian school. I got no clue at all.

This is Chris Pirazzi, the author of Thailand Fever. Now i can safely predict that by his somewhat librarian esq look he was never too successful with the women back in America, thus isnt in a position to give advice on women or relationships as i'd be willing to put money on that he never really had a whole lot to do with women before he got off the plane in BKK 10 yrs ago.

'Don't judge a book by its cover'

True, However I think Thai girls will find this liberal nerd look reliable and gentle. The older ones may even think that he won't mind going to the temple with them

That Thais and Indians don’t mix is something of an urban myth today.

***

From my experience.

They are the most traditional minority in TL. They have been here for generations yet they don't mix, the family simply want Indian in law. They love to staty in their business circle and I NEVER encountered Indian in bureaucratic and gov. circles. Many have very good education but it seems they prefer to go to private University like the ABAC than the gov. ones.

In the old day the favorite job for them was private security for the riches' house for thier big physic. The typical business is tailoring, peanut vending (the poor one). Howver, many are very rich real estate and stock market investors.

PS: When the Sikh do military reserve training or regular military service they wear special turban instead of the beret or Arny cap.

They are the guys that meet up with a woman in a venue where a rational stable male would not go to find a wife or girlfriend and that anywhere else would set off alarm bells. And yet, these guys will blame the women, make rude condescending comments about Issan and altogether blame Thailand for their predicaments, when the reality is that they would have had the same or worse results wherever they came from.

This has always made me smile. My wife is a born and bred Khon Kaen woman of Burmese stock. Her family have a fairly successful business in town (No she's not Chinese/Thai and her dad isn't the local police general for Region 4 although she did study in Oz ) and are what I suppose you'd call "middle class" Thais. Dad's got a New Honda Accord bought and paid for, likes his round of golf on a Sunday, that sort of thing. Our marriage and the subsequent birth of our daughter has been nothing more than idyllic. We've never had a cross word between us in all the years we've been together. My folks back home idolize her and their granddaughter and she idolizes them in turn. MY point is I wonder if there are forums in the UK or America full of pissed off Thai blokes who married a British girl who got pregnant at 16, is 35 now with 5 kids and hasn't done a days work in her life apart from as a government artist or some trailer trash blonde strung out on meth from Alabama who blame the entire population of the country they reside in for the hel_l that their life has become and the shitty choices they made.

Oversea troubled Thai is mostly the uneducated women who got married to farangs. They are not adaptable. They have bad employment or simply can't do any work. The worst cases are the bar girls who turned back to their profession.

Recently I found funny magazine named คนไทยต่างประเทศ (Oversea Thais) in book shop (at least at นายอินทร์ book shop at the Emporium). It's by Thais in the US. tip off, advise etc. Sample of losers, winners, Q&A, no sympathy/legitimisation for the losers as far as I saw.

How about focusing the subject? Have you ever noticed that when relationship issues are raised, the influencing factors and key characteristics are always left out? For example, one of the most common threads involves the women of Issan and their husbands/partners/boyfriends. According to some on TV, these women are the harpes from Hades. Yet, there is no mention of how these women were encountered, the type of man involved or the man's behaviour throughout the course of the encounter. From what I have seen, the guys that are married to Issan ladies and that live in the area, are doing ok and are relatively happy. When they have real problems (e.g. annoying inlaws or step children) they often offer logical workable solutions. If anything, these are the men with less vindictiveness, less anger in their posts and come off as decent people (at least from the impression one gets from their comments). I have met a few of these fellows and they are no different than normal suburban type folks back home. The ones that post their hateful angry tales of woe, are the type of person that were screw ups in their homelands and that couldn't find a healthy relationship in their homelands either. They are the guys that meet up with a woman in a venue where a rational stable male would not go to find a wife or girlfriend and that anywhere else would set off alarm bells. And yet, these guys will blame the women, make rude condescending comments about Issan and altogether blame Thailand for their predicaments, when the reality is that they would have had the same or worse results wherever they came from. There are problems unique to Thailand and one of them is that it attracts some of the biggest losers from other countries. Therein lies the real issue. If you start with deficient products, the end result will usually be deficient as well. as such, it is not so much of it being "no worse" than elsewhere, but a result of a concentration of the people that are prone to have the negative events.

Yes, and when loser from the 1st world country came to the 3rd world country and found that they are stil a losers, they naturally blame the new place especially the locals who are in better shape.

jamora,

People of such profile should be classified as elite if the wealth is "sustainable" and especially if they are also "publicly influential" otherwise I would classified them as Upper Middle or even temporary Uper Middle. There are some people with extreme luck and, earn quick money and have lavish lives like that but they go down flat fast or don't leave much for the next generation. ie. The rag to rich guy who sold buddha images. At some point he had several hundred mil. and seem to upgraded his lifestyle. Now he is in jail for fraud and after release I don't think he can sustain his wealth. Class in TL is associated with family status. Some who I think is hiso may not come from old family such as the Red Bull owner, he is the first in the family to get successful. However, he very well establish his family status in the society through sustainable influence.

Main distinction between Middle and Upper Middle is that the Middle have social mobilisation opportunity but they have to work while the Upper Middle don't have to work or work for title and hobby. Most Upper Middle I define may have lesswealth than your example.

It's my personal observation.

My idea of classes in aspects of economic and social status in Thailand:

1. The disadvantage class - Those who work for their daily food and chelter, minimal chance for better change, lowest social standing, .

2. The Middle class - Those who have some chance of education and have career for the living, standard of lives depend on opportunity and performance, Socially accepted according to their resource and merit.

3. The Upper Middle - Those who have well establish family wealth. They workfor the title with no real need to earn for the living. They have property or steady income that allow them to have education, house, car, oversea holiday.

4. The Elite - Wealthy and highly respect old families and the tycoon families who own businesses empires. The tycoon are political party sponsor, contract mega project, deposit money oversea, own private plane (even the jet), collect 2-3 hundred guns, influential in gov. official position shaffle etc.

So,

Hi-so in my understanding is the elite class and some from the upper middle with certain social influence that the elite class istens to such as very well respected ex-bureaucrat who may be not so rich or popular person such as Dr. Pravej Wasee (ประเวศ วะสี).

I can't remember what grade but I first heard of the sign "No dog and Chinese are allowed" in school class.

...

Think my post is misleading. It's historical anecdote in Thai school class alright but it the story of what happened in China.

You're welcome.

There and more successful single ladies in 40. They have more stable life perception than the younger ones. Some have strange charactors but many are no nonsense. Good luck

bkkjames.

You can pay dearly for the lesson of Mia Noi. It's something the professor can't really pass on secret to the student. Above all, most prof. is fake.

I am a Thai, 5th generation born in TL, went to Satit Chula School, Chula U. for BA and UK U. for MA. I thinkI know people of the local respected social circle.

As you may be in early 50, my impression is:

Thai partner in the 20. The girl is strange (for the poor Thai I would think this is girl who trades relation for money.). The guy can be a sort of opportunist.

Thai partner in the 30. The girl must have personal reason. The guy is a lucky one.

Thai partner in the 40. No impression on both

In specific case it really depend on the person and her family's attitude and more importantly your possibility. Possibility may not be the point in question but this is also what the Thai people like me also think of.

The young professional girls are between 25- early 30. They finished U. education and have started the career. They stand on their own or family's legs, have no need and don't want to depend on the partner so the promising young men around her age are preferable. If not, the mature and successful professionals in the 40 are still ok. ie. If this PM is stil single he would be attractive to the late 20 girl too. This group is young, they expected to have partner who will live together for many decade and raise children together.

The respected Thai families will seriously concern the age gap more than you. Families of younger girls (less than 30) may suspect that it's just the girls' fad having relation with you and they would think they know problem will rise from the age gap. Some may have confidence in their girls' judgement but I am sure they would get nervous.

You have to be very charming, attractive and promising to form serious relation. And the relation can be risky. Younger girls still give social life priority and you may not mix up well with her groups. Thai people will look at the couple laughing in their mind.

PS: I am in the 30. Other generation Thais may think differently.

Cheers !! Lancelot ไท

Examples: Corruption in the Customs Department is bad inThailand. "Oh, but it's bad in other places as well". So what? A very large proportion of small businesses started by Thai women using their boyfriends' funds fail. "Oh, but businesses fail everywhere." So what? The murder rate is high in Thailand. "Oh, but it's high in other places as well." So what?

Sure there are problems in every society but its deemed unacceptable by many to voice any comments ctitical of Thailand. I'm not sure how any society/nation improves if it is unable to rationaly discuss its short commings

Expat forum is the least likely place to have your voice heard by the responsible people.

Sometimes when you are surrounded by an alien culture and a language you don't speak you need to find others to vent to that understand you. That's why you sometimes see a disproportionate amount of griping here. Digital therapy

Yeah it's advisable not to complain the country in public so this is the place.

It's the expat forum. The expats have already left their home countries for TL.

Some find bad thing in TL, they compare it to other countries and give practical consideration/reason for their stay here.

Some find bad thing in TL, they love to regard it as exclusively Thai and they have internet therapy.

It's the fact, "relatively risky" anyway. Some drivers fired a shot, scared them off and didn't report.

It's local road tip off. You can ask other Thais and some will agree this route is of higher risk. BTW, chose people with safety awareness in mind, many people are หน่อมแน้ม and simply don't think of possibility of crime at all.

when I go to Bangkok from pattaya I just pay the taxi fare and don't drive my car. Too many problems with the cops. My taxi driver, a friend after 3 years of using him, always gets worried when he sees a cop by the side of the road. He always points and says "100 baht"

I think you should go and get your paranoia seen to....I drive BKK, Rayong at least a couple of times a week when I am at home, and the last time I was stopped by the BiB on the motorway was over 3 years ago... But as always lets not let the truth get in the way of a good story...

FYI, Pattaya - Rayong bypass is dangerous at night. Many people got robbed. The favorite trick is broken car asking for help.