Rumcabal

My first post to ThaiVisa

I am surprised no one has mentioned Mexican Grill. I am only a customer and have no business association with them.

They recently relocated from Pai and are on the outer side of Canal Road south of Suthep Road.

The burritos are very TexMex and portions are huge. They offer an upsized version and that one is impossible to eat in one sitting.

Also have other TexMex dishes, ribs, Margaritas....

The food is good but the kitchen is very slow... so be warned.

I agree with this. The Mexican Grill is where I've had the best Mexican food in Chiang Mai. Their burritos are fantastic as are their margaritas. I'd compare it to 'Mike's' in Pattaya although I havent eaten at Mikes in years.

That is actually I good response. Thanks. The main point I am trying to make is that development is not always a good thing (unless you are a real estate agent, something I have never been and would never want to be in this life or the next). Development always goes through phases. Typically it is positive at first, then as it grows it reaches a true "Golden Age" where it maintains a nice mixture of the old and new (I would guess that was Pattaya in the 80s and 90s). Then it overwhelms an area and destroys much that was good and unique about the place (Pattaya from 2000 to present), replacing it with a "modern development model" that, in my view, is totally boring and has only one main function: to make money for real estate firms and those who are involved with the industry. The new model has virtually nothing to do with making Pattaya better. That is a real estate myth. They do not care about any person who does not embrace their view. That is why their responses are so "angry" on Thaivisa (along with the fact that they are having a bit of a problem with their collective dream). After the destruction is official, they will move on to another place and start the cycle over again. If we all keep embracing the concept of more, more, more, and more, we will end up unhappy. It is interesting to see the myths the real estate industry is propagating: Pattaya must change in order to be better; the only people who can't see this are "old whiners;" only poor people dislike the new changes; all of the whiners are miserable; the development is for the benefit of all people (Thais, farangs, etc); Pattaya is entering Golden Age; things have never been better, etc. These are just myths that they hope you swallow. Still, I will say it again: there are worse places to live than Pattaya

You really do go on and on about the same ol' subjects. For starters why do you call everyone who disagrees with you an 'angry real estate agent'? Seems overly paranoid to me.

Interesting 'development' theory you've explained above. If this theory is correct then cities like London, Paris and New York should be on their death beds because of all the development that has gone on there. Can you please name 1 city anywhere in the world that has been destroyed by development?

In your mind Development = Residential Real Estate but thats only a tiny component of it. Development means having adequate reliable supplies of electricity, good sewerage and sanitation systems, good health care, good transport infrastructure, reliable communications, internet etc.. Pattaya doesnt tick all these boxes but it is moving in the right direction. Not only that but these developments benefit everyone living there, young, old, rich and poor. They also are not about residential real estate. Open your eyes and embrace it, its not going to stop.

Nothing I said was contradictory unless you play with words.

Yes, it was in fact contradictory just by using a non-standard definition of the word "decline." It is YOU who are playing with words by redefining the standard definition. HERE is what the decline of an urban area--in this case, Detroit--means:

http://www.guardian....ography-detroit

What YOU mean by decline is that you don't like development. And in the course of expressing that dislike, you imagine all kinds of hostility to your preferred lifestyle. Trouble is, you're vastly outnumbered by those who LIKE what Pattaya is now and that's exactly why so many more, representing a great diversity, visit here now and WORK here now than before. And much development has also taken place for those who prefer your lifestyle as well.

There is no need for me to respond further.

Cough.

I would, however, like to get some opinions from any person who is not a real estate agent and who has lived in the area for over ten years about what I said here:

OK.

Cheers JSixpack you responded better and more eloquently than I ever could have.

However I also think that the time you spend writing your logical arguments is a waste of your time. Thats why I refused to respond. Why bother?

You are just trying to educate old Dinosaurs who dont listen to your points and instead scream 'Real Estate Agents, Russians, Decline*, Bait, Salmon, Want it all to myself, Change - No Good..etc....'

*Note: May or may not mean actual Decline

The best Guinness story comes from Jamaica, where the G is truly great:

U2 were in Jamaica recording an album. They were in a restaurant and one of the waiters noticed the Irish accents but didn't realise exactly who they were. He allegedly said to Bono:

"Do you know where they make the best Guinness in the world?"

"Yeah, Dublin of course."

"No. Right here in Jamaica"

"You've got to be joking."

"I bet you $10 that it is. Come with me to my local tonight and I'll show you."

So the waiter, still unaware of who they were, took them to his local drinking establishment. To much staring and open-mouths Bono ordered a pint of Guinness and took a sip. A long pause followed.

"F------g hell, that's the best pint of Guinness I've ever had!"

And now Bono swears by Jamaican Guinness.

Probably the truth behind the story is the fact that Jamaica sells a heck of a lot of G Foreign Extra, a proper beer weighing in at 7.5% proof and not widely found.

While I'm in the process of popping illusions, many a well-lubricated Irishman or American wannabe version, weeping gently into their pint of G, singing Danny Boy and cursing the Brit oppressor, overlooks 3 important facts.

1. Arthur Guinness came from solid Northern Ireland (part of the UK) Protestant roots
2. Guinness is a British owned and listed company (now part of Diageo)
3. Danny Boy was written by an Englishman

So on that merry note, Sláinte!, and have a great Paddy's Day

Haha no self respecting Irishman would pay any attention to anything that bull*hit artist Bono has to say!!

Different markets though do get different brews of the black stuff. Even if the Guinness came directly from the Dublin brewery it does not mean its the same recipe sold in Ireland. Different for different markets. Budweiser sold in Ireland is brewed under contract at the Dublin brewery. And I believe they have canceled the plans to move out to the burbs. The massive property crash put an end to those ambitions.

Cant argue with your other facts though.

Getting drugged and robbed by a prostitute is bad enough.

Then getting your picture and photograph page of your passport plastered on the internet courtesy of Pattaya One news is almost as bad. This guy might get into serious trouble back in his homeland with his family or employer as a result of these pictures. He is a victim dont forget.

If I had a similar thing happen to me I doubt I'd bother reporting it. Its not worth the risk of winding up online - forever.

I am 100% Irish and now live in Chiang Mai .The Guinness in the Red Lion @ B180 ,and at O Malleys @B190 ( a pint glass ) is excellent .Keeps its head till the bottom of the glass.

About 9 months ago Guinness stopped supplying Guinness to Thailand from Malaysia .After around 3 months they resumed supplying Thailand direct from the Dublin brewery .The Guinness you get in Chiang Mai now is the real Macoy !

By the way there is a St Patricks day parade down in Pattaya this year ,organised for charity .It starts from Soi 4 Beach road .Full details on the Pattaya forum .As it happens i am going down to Pattaya tomorrom so shall be there for it .

Guinness isnt really my drink. A few places in Dublin though sold a really good pint - Kehoes, Mcdaids and The Old Stand were notables. Hmmm bringing back fond memories - I'd love another night out there now. Best pint I ever had though was in the Shannon Airport departure lounge.

As for the old wives tales about Guinness tasting different outside of Ireland - thats because (I think) it is made differently outside Ireland. They use a different recipe for different markets - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinness_Brewery#Varieties

Having said that if Thaifan2 is correct and the Guinness at the Red Lion is the real deal I might have to pop in there for a sample sometime. Thanks for the info.

Anyhow, back to the Pun Pun. I had the Cheese Steak with Onions and Peppers Sub there the other day and it has fan'frickin'tastic. Khun Gonzo kept suggesting I could take some of it home as apparently none of you lesser mortals have ever finished one. Well, I was famished, and given an hour and two beers as accompniment I polished it off. Thanks Gonzo, and I'll see you again soon.

PS: Nice guy too.

Really? Folks cant finish the cheese steak sub? Sounds like a challenge for me so on my return. Cheese steak - you will be mine........

Yeah I wholeheartedly agree. Went there on Saturday - had the Big Breakfast. Portions were huge and it was delicious. John was a very hospitable host and I ended up spending far longer there than I had planned. I didnt even realize there was a Thai visa discount until I saw it taken off my bill. Cheers John!!

Yes, the absolute number of people in Pattaya has risen over the past decade. Yes, Pattaya is in decline (in large part due to too many people). Does that make sense?

No I'm sorry but that does not make sense to me. It depends I suppose on what you mean by the word 'decline'. Decline in this sense clearly does NOT mean:

- Fewer tourists are coming to Pattaya

- Fewer companies want to do business in Pattaya

- Fewer people want to live in Pattaya

- Pattaya is physically shrinking in size

I think what you mean by decline is that the lifestyle expectations that you want has declined. Thats a different issue. On average what is beneficial to Pattaya, as a whole, may not suit certain individuals. Development has never benefited every single person, all the time. But it does benefit the majority. Why should development and modernization which have benefited the West be denied to Thais?

If Pattaya is growing, physically in size and in population then by definition it cannot be in decline. If you want to see a city truly in decline, you should see what is happening to Detroit.

Ad hominem abuse (also called personal abuse or personal attacks) usually involves insulting or belittling one's opponent in order to invalidate his or her argument, but can also involve pointing out factual but ostensible character flaws or actions which are irrelevant to the opponent's argument. This tactic is logically fallacious because insults and even true negative facts about the opponent's personal character have nothing to do with the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions.

You didnt write this by yourself. I thought the writing style was different. Its just copied directly from wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Why not respond yourself to the arguments put forth by jsixpack, instead of resorting to cutting and pasting.

The "decline" has been going on for a long time. It is taking place in almost all sectors, contrary to real estate myth. An obvious problem is that there are too many hotels, restaurants, malls, etc., and too few tourists and long-stay expats to keep these places from going under.

So Pattaya is 'declining' - ok gottcha. Yet in the very next paragraph you state -

Yes, the number of people living in and around Pattaya has grown over the years (this is happening worldwide).

So now Pattaya is growing. Your above statements cannot both be correct. It has to be one or the other - no?

As an aside populations are not growing everywhere worldwide. There are many countries with declining populations - Russia and Japan being just 2 that come to mind.

Underage prostitution is a problem in Thailand but 95% of the problem is outside of Pattaya.

Wholeheartedly agree with the above statement. The problem with the 5% that occurs inside Pattaya is that it is the percentage that gets the publicity, both here and abroad. This results on both a stain on Thailand's reputation and the reputation of us foreigners who live and vacation here.

Admittedly it is up to the Thai's to clean up their own reputation but at the same time I just dont understand foreigners who insist on pushing this age limit. Many have admitted on here to not being able to tell the difference between an 18 year old and a 20 year old. If thats the case - why not go for the 20 year old? If you want you can pretend inside your head she's 18 (or less). I dont understand, especially in Pattaya when there are thousands of beautiful women of legal age capable of fulfilling almost any sexual fantasy that this age limit is a boundary that some foreigners continue to try and 'push'. And if you 'push' it and get caught/grassed out/set up/whatever by the authorities then I've no sympathy for you. Thats all I was saying throughout this thread. I've no sympathy for this Norwegian.

Now that I read you post again Marky I dont actually think our positions are that different from each other. Hmmm does that mean I havent lost the plot - or does it mean you have lost the plot and are also off the deep end

After you have been in Thailand for a while you will realize that almost no one is from Pattaya. Most bar employees come from somewhere else. They start working in smaller Thai towns at Thai bars and eventually perhaps 5% end up going to work in Pattaya. I don't think you have lost the plot. I don't see that you had it to begin with. The odd sense of reality you mention is 5% Pattaya and 95% other places in Thailand. At least the bars in Pattaya get raided on a regular basis to check for under age employees. If you are sitting in a go go and a light flashes and half the staff runs off stage and out the back door you know a raid is coming. This rarely happens anywhere else in Thailand.

I'm not quite following your logic here Marky. Are you saying that Pattaya is not as bad as other places in Thailand for underaged sex workers? Actually I'd use your above example against this line of thought. The fact is that this underage problem is so organized in Pattaya that they are almost always tipped off before a raid. Very often tipped off by the very same people carrying out the raid!! The raids are for show.

I suppose stories such as this:

Or complete horror stories such as this:

Could have happened anywhere in Thailand, right? I could give plenty more examples if I was bothered to look them up. But you get the picture.

Are the owners of Central Festival, the Hilton, the Holiday inn, and the numerous hotels on Wong Amat, residents of Pattaya? Are they based in Thailand? How much tax do they pay to the local government? Are they reinvesting in Pattaya's infrastructure, or are all the profits going elsewhere? What effect is the slow down of the bars in Naklua(for example)having upon the local economy/workers/residents? It is important to note that many different people are dependent upon the "bar economy", and they are the ones who suffer the most.

Locals work in the Central Festival, Hilton and Holiday Inn. Locals supply them with food, laundry services...etc.. I'm sure they do contribute tax and fees to the local government. Local contractors worked in the construction of these places. If these places attract in 'higher spending' Japanese, Chinese and Thai customers, that can only benefit Pattaya as a whole.

If you are noticing a slowdown in the local bar scene I think that you are blaming the wrong cause. There are still hundreds of beer bars to go to, right? In my opinion the massive economic recession in the West is the primary cause for a lack of Western tourists and that has nothing to do with whether Central Festival is in business or not.

You really do have an odd sense of reality. Really what you are saying is that you find it distasteful for old men to be with young women of legal age.

I agree with Tolley, you seem to have lost the plot.

I find old men buying sex from 17 year old's distasteful - yes. I would also argue that my position is in fact shared by the vast majority of people on this planet. That is why its illegal in most countries, Thailand included. This position only becomes an 'odd sense of reality' to a small subset of foreigners who have dwelled in Pattaya for so long that they are unable to distinguish fantasy from reality. These are the guys who believe they are truly 'Hunsum Man'

I dont read anywhere in Tolley's post where it is written I've lost the plot. Are we having a difficult time distinguishing between what is real and not Wallaby?

Ok here we go again

Calm down and get off your high horse for a moment.

I'm calm. If criticizing creeps like this Norwegian is considered 'on my high horse' then so be it

Life is not black and white as some people would like to have it.

Actually in 'some' instances - Life is very black and white

Many people are still married before the age of 18 and many people are engaged in sexual relationships well before 18.

Yes, and mostly to teenagers their own age. A 66 year old pervert is a different kettle of fish altogether

Further the age of consent is lower than 18 in many countries.

See my above point

You can't legislate hormones.

Actually you can and every country does. That's why there are laws against rape, incest and pedophilia.

Whilst this guys behavior might be socially unacceptable it is rather harsh to be charged with rape if the women is willing and looks 18 ish.

'Ahhh your Honor I thought she looked 18' is not a valid defense at least I hope its not in this case

That is my real point and the fact that there are thais who use this as an excuse to entrap farangs for big pay days.

Here's some free, admittedly unsolicited, advice. Leave young girls alone. Sure fire way to avoid 'entrapment'

Please allow me an attempt to reply to some of Tolley's remarks.

It wasn't that long ago that people were getting married at 13,14,15,16 and in some cultures they still do.

Yes and it wasnt that long ago that the average human lifespan was 25 years. We've moved on. Its called evolution.

The age of consent is another thorny area as it differs in many countries.

Oh its real 'thorny' all right. Especially for Pedophiles

What is right and what constitutes being a kiddy fiddler?

Well fiddling with kids would be considered a kiddy fiddler and for the record its - wrong

It seems on superficial evidence that the guy here is being set up and will have to pay a lot to get out of trouble.

Being caught naked with a naked minor in his room and a condom out is considered 'superficial evidence'. What in your brain would constitute 'reasonable evidence'?

I don't see the Thais getting charged with raping a minor.

So therefore its ok for a foreigner to rape a minor?

It all smacks of double standards and just another way to extort money from farangs.

It can be very hard to tell the difference between a 17 year old and a 20 year old especially as you get older yourself.

*Sigh* its sooo hard these days for an aging sexpat to get his jollies from a young girl. What is the world coming too? Here's a suggestion for you - Why not go for like an 'old' 24 year old?

Thank you all for kind words, and I will try to answer your questions. Khun Orang, in fact we live at Ornsirin muban, which if you know area is also on Maejo Road and very close to Maripaun, and we hope to someday open massage again. We now have Maripaun Beauty Salon at home, but it is very small and Marisa works alone. We still have massage equipment and could technically do massage at home, but Marisa's plan is to go to massage school herself and also when financially able to afford it, to fix up the grounds to make it a beautiful and relaxing area for customers. I will also be honest here. While she did good business at massage, in the end it was just too expensive. The rent was 9,000 baht a month, and we also paid the masseuses both a salary and percentage of the massage fees and also provided room and board. If you add all this to other expenses, such as electricity and water, it was just too expensive. Also, the success of the business was based on masseuses, who are now in business for themselves and best of luck to them. They are lovely people and excellent masseuses, and I will still remain a friend and also a customer. If and when we do go back into massage business, I will post an announcement on forum.

Rumcabal, the shop is located in same row of buildings as Maripaun. I will leave sign out front of maripaun for now to help people find new place. New massage is 7 buildings down from Maripaun, heading towards Mae Jo. Maripaun was 6.5 kms from Meechok Plaza, on opposite side of Mae Jo Road. Go to second stop light from Meechok Plaza and Rimping Supermarket, then make u-turn at second light and head back towards Chiang Mai. Maripaun located just past Wawee Coffee and Ornsirin muban. New shop will be open in about 3 days. Phone number is 0852849118. However I must be honest that masseuses do not speak English all that well, but they do speal nit noi. If you call for appointment and have a problem, feel free to call me at 0848832469 and I will relay the message. Also, new shop will be closed mondays, same as Maripaun was.

Khun Ullyses, thank you also and I am in fact a very frequent customer at all your shops, and I always received kind and excellent service at all of them.

Many Thanks for that information Leininger and best of luck to your wifes new venture in the future

Caucasian? No mention in the news item about the color of the foreigner.

A very unusual reaction to a very frequently seen fact of life.

None of the above posts explain it rationally.

Just a thought: could it be jealousy?... or resentment of competition on mother's side?

Not a totally impossible situation given the geographic locale. At least this would be a rational explanation of the seemingly irrational act.

Very good point.

A very good point??!!?? Are you for real? That comment is possibly the most stupid thing I've ever read on TV and that's saying something. A young, beautiful 18 year old Thai woman 'jealous' of her Mothers Farang Pattaya boyfriend. Maybe if he were Brad Pitt. In the far more likely case that he is of similar 'physique' and social skills to Pattaya's usual sexpats then I'd say the odds of jealousy being a factor in her attempted suicide are about the same as that of a retarded chicken randomly typing the above message on backsoon's keyboard.

I hope she recovers from this ordeal and doesn't lose the plot so quickly again in the future.

Hi Leininger,

Thanks for the sharing the story. I'm actually interested in finding a good massage place since I just recently moved to CM. So Am I correct in assuming the 2 ladies have opened a massage shop on Maejo Road? Can you provide any more detail please, if allowed?

Again, not even getting into the morality of it, purely from a legal point of view:

-- if he was aware of the underage sex law (he probably was and even if not, ignorance of the law is never a valid excuse) and he consciously sought to break it, lack of sympathy is logical

-- as above, but if he was intending to comply with the Thai law of age consent but something happened that caused him to accidentally break it (doesn't have to be entrapment, could simply be not understanding Thai ID, believing the sex worker's word, a hundred different possible scenarios really), sympathy towards him is logical.

For those refusing to consider sympathy for the second scenario, I say, there but for the grace of God go though.

Another pure but possible speculation. Supposing it was a security guard who called this in (whether he was hoping to be in on a blackmail payoff or not). Again, getting to morality, if the guard saw that this girl was legally underage by looking at the ID, shouldn't he have warned the foreigner of the problem so if he was ignorant of the fact, he could have aborted his misadventure on the spot. If the guard did see this, instead of trying to prevent it, he just let the crime happen. Very moral, that.

According to the Pattaya Daily News he

a: Had lived in Pattaya for 5 years

b: Had been taking back under aged girls to his room which is why the locals complained

c: Lived across from Suttawat school (why a man attracted to young girls chooses to live at such a location - No lets not go there)

If these facts are true I would speculate that he was well aware of the underage sex law here in Thailand and as a result he gets no sympathy from me.

If the second scenario happened the one where he thought he was 'legally' having sex with an 18 year old, its still sex with a woman young enough to be his granddaughter. And no, he still gets no sympathy from me. 'Illogical' as that may sound.

the Norwegians passed a new law in Norway

On the global sillyness scale this certainly wins hands down.

Most Western countries have such statutes on their books now...including the United States and Canada.

Or could the fact that so many Western countries have passed such similar laws mean that paying for sex with a minor is wrong? Most of the posts on this topic have been sympathetic to this guy. Wondering if he was set up or framed, pour soul. Says a lot about the mindset of the Pattaya posters in my opinion. He broke the law, both here in Thailand and, apparently, in several other countries also. I dont have any sympathy for him.

A BiB money earner for them and the lady. soon there will be no money earners as the senior still active farangs find another destination, but thats LOS, daft.

Yes this could be a big problem for Thailand. What would happen if all the 66 year olds who enjoy having cheap sex with 17 year old girls left? What kind of place would this become then? Ohhh perish the thought

I really don't wish to turn this thread into a discussion on paedophile activities in Pattaya but I am surprised that you are not aware that such activities are still rife in our beloved city. It is something that is not often written about because it is quite dangerous to lift your head too much above the parapet on this particular subject.

Suffice to say, it is indeed one of the worst blights on the city, and as with all crime, it is controlled by the police. Farang paedophiles with deep pockets still live here with impunity and it is only when they run short of cash, or the cops put the prices up and they refuse to pay that you read about them being arrested in the press. (Or maybe the police needed a public scapegoat or the cops making the arrest are from a different region and/or were not included in the payoff …)

Yet even those who are arrested rarely spend much time in jail. They may have been temporarily short of cash to pay off the cops, but within a short while they are able to borrow money from friends or family and are soon back home in their beachside condos. How many times have you read about a man being arrested and learned that he has had a long record of previous arrests? And what about the Brit the other day who had his visa revoked? He had been a known by the police as a paedophile for years. Why did it take so long to kick him out? How many kids had he scarred for life during the intervening period?

If you doubt what I tell you then I can only suggest that you pay a visit to the Mercy mission whose 'mission' in life is specifically to rescue these kids from the slums of Pattaya. When you gain the carers' trust, you will hear accounts about kids as young as 2 or 3 being 'sold' to paedophiles by their own mothers. I met many kids there who bore the terrible, mental scars of having been abused by paedophiles - over and over again. The terrible thing is that a mother can turn up at the mission at any time and request the return of her child. She will probably be short of money to feed her drug habit and she must sell the kid once again. The Mission can do nothing to stop this – if they tried to do anything or complain to the authorities they would probably be dead by now. Paedophiles are the most protected species in this city. So the mission just does what it can and keeps its mouth shut.

This is the sordid underbelly of our city that I for one would dearly love to be obliterated. It can't come soon enough.

Bingo. In my humble opinion this is the problem with staying in Pattaya long term. On holiday all you experience is smiling faces, lots of beer, beautiful women and good times. Over time as you open your eyes, look around, talk to folks and you begin to see Pattaya's dirty under belly. And it is filthy. Long term residents who claim never ever to notice pedophilia in their midst are simply choosing not to see it.

I moved from pattaya to jomtien,i just got a bit over the whole pattaya lifestyle.I really enjoy jomtien,but i think its still overpriced.

I am in chiang mai at the moment on a fact finding mission,so far so good.

The climate is cooler and the lifestyle is definitely more laid back here,i'm 43 with thai gf and i think if you were single and had no other interests other than bar and bgs then chiang mai is not the place for you.

If however you enjoy golf ,outdoors.funky little cafes and boutiques and realized the thai girls are smiling at you to be friendly and not sizing you up for a quick short time behind the dumpster, then chiang mai is worth a look

I made the move up North a few months ago. I was not bored with Pattaya, I was more like 'numbed' from the scenes I witnessed daily. Decided it was best to get out.

It hasnt been the easiest move. There are many things about Pattaya that I found better/more convenient than Chiang Mai. Baht buses everywhere for one, same with motorbike taxi's for two, everywhere open 24-7 for three, proximity to airport for 4, being called the sexiest man on the planet for 5. But I'm slowly adjusting to the different lifestyle and pace of life here and I'm just about at the point now where I'd say I'm preferring Chiang Mai. Friendly locals, less yobs, less scams, far less chang swilling string vest wearin' old sexpats convinced they are the 'backbone of the Thai economy', nice restaurants, beautiful scenery. Yep I'm slowly coming around to Chiang Mai...