islandee

1907 Northern warlord

Your New Forum-Thailand and Siam History Photos Post #57 of 2010-07-25 05:40 'thailand_nortern-war-slaves-1900.jpg'

Some conflict in information: the image is as titled; but the title in the text of the post is '1907 Northern warlord'. Payap Univ sides with the latter, labeling this photo, in translation, as 'Battle dress for a Lanna royal'. See http://lib.payap.ac.th/webin/ntic/the%20past/ceremony/DSC_0017_1.jpg

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Your post #40: thai-resistence-air-strike-on-jap-facilities-near-lao-border_1943.jpg

This image title is in error. Thai resistance forces never had an air arm. They came to control several airfields / airstrips; in fact, resistance forces built a few, but these were primarily for bringing in supplies for ground efforts; the resistance did get some 400 Allied pilots and POWs out of Thailand via those airstrips --- but all air activity was via Allied aircraft.

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Your post #35: bridge-construction-over-the-mae-kok-river_chiangmai_1948.jpg

CMU website IDs this as at Chiang Rai, rather than Chiang Mai

(http://library.cmu.ac.th/ntic/en_picturelanna/detail_picturelanna.php?picture_id=599)

I would guess that the do-called construction was actually patchwork for an old deteriorating deck.

This bridge would have been on the Phahon Yothin Road (or 'Phaholyothin', now Thai National Highway No. 1) in Chiang Rai. As such, some Thai troops passed over the bridge while heading north towards Kengtung, Burma in early 1942; and Japanese army troops crossed the bridge on their way through Kengtung to attack Imphal and Kohima in late 1943-early 1944.

Wisarut on the Axis History Forum (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=113632) records that Thai troops returned barefoot from Kengtung after the war, no doubt crossing this same bridge, though obviously with more wear and tear to feet than bridge deck. Few Japanese troops retreating from their defeat at Imphal came back this way.

In any case, the bridge deck got plenty of use; the bridge was demolished in 1969 to be replaced by one of reinforced concrete. Note that CMU also offers a view of the same location as it looks today; see:

http://library.cmu.ac.th/ntic/en_picturelanna/comparepic.php?picture_id=599

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Your post #30: floods_hat-yai_1933.jpg

Conflict / possible error:

The same scene, albeit cropped and / or taken from a different angle, appears on both the Payap University and CMU websites --- both of which identify it as in Chiang Mai:

Payap: http://lib.payap.ac....humb.php?GID=PC, photos pc00033.jpg and pc00034.jpg

[translation] Ratchawong Road, flooded during Chiang Mai's year of the great flood, 1952 – shot from Sri Nakhon Ping Cinema Intersection [the cinema marque is visible on the right] (the cinema was subsequently closed down and replaced by the Nawarat Market) [photographer: Boonserm Satraphaya]

CMU: http://library.cmu.a...?picture_id=187

'Title: The flood on Rachawong Road, Chiang Mai, 1952'

'Creator: Boonserm Satrabhaya'

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Post #27: nan_1933.jpg

This image title is in error.

This is a locally famous photo of Kruba Sri Vichai, a saint of Lanna, with his followers and others, seated at the foot of the stairs leading to Wat Prathat Doi Suthep, overlooking Chiang Mai, on 30 April 1935. The photo can also be seen at http://www.doisuthep...mid=57〈=en. Also on that page is a photo of a motorcar in a crowd: the monk had ramrodded the effort to improve the road up the mountain to the wat, and the monk's car, which he couldn't operate himself, was the first to travel the length of the improved road (that photo is also presented in Post #28: 1934.jpg). There is a very active shrine to the monk at the base of the mountain, adjacent to the road at a sharp right-hand bend, just uphill from the Chiang Mai Zoo. That road improvement was just one of many projects the monk oversaw in his lifetime: Oliver Hargreave provides a good, short-form bio of "Khru Ba Srivichai" on p 58 of his "Exploring Chiang Mai" (3rd Edition).

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Your post 1900-1920s (2), #40, 2010-08-02 09:29, 'chiangmai&ping-river_1902.jpg':

This is the Gula Bridge, erected by Dr Marion Cheek in 1892. Dr Cheek's exploits alone are worthy of a book and are summarized at http://www.herbswanson.com/thesis_irony/prelude_to_irony_chapter2.php. In hardcopy, Oliver Hargreave in his "Exploring Chiang Mai" provides an excellent short-form bio of Dr Cheek on p 73 of his '3rd Edition'. Dr Cheek also built the First Church of Christ in Chiang Mai, which still stands today, more than 100 years later, but is now part of a school. The bridge was terminally damaged in 1932 by teak logs floated down the river by one of the large logging companies and it was demolished. The same site is now occupied by the Chanson Bridge, more popularly known now as 'the footbridge'.

Thanks for this information islandee. Please keep posting. It is just the information we need to make sense of this wonderful box of old photos.

Reference: your post #58 of 2010-22-16 08:03 in the 1900-1920s folder

Harrry: I feel your frustration. Unfortunately I can help only with photos from the Chiang Mai area --- and only those with which I'm familiar. And I concede, delightedly (but suspiciously), that there are some images on this site with which I'm not familiar. As you've probably already noted, many of the image titles on this site can themselves offer useful information. When I've found such, I've intentionally not commented.

Some while back, feeling extremely limited with the online photo exhibit from the Payap Univ website --- which was presented only in Thai, I downloaded the whole thing and had it translated (too much of it dross, unfortunately). I indexed the result and will eventually post it on my own website, whose formation has also unfortunately been delayed for various reasons.

For what it's worth, the address for Payap Univ's online exhibit IN THAI of Boonserm's work is http://lib.payap.ac.th/webin/ntic/PhotoLanna/Index.php. It's basically a static site, but after I cross-indexed it to the Chiang Mai Univ exhibit of (the same) Boonserm's work (at http://library.cmu.ac.th/ntic/en_picturelanna/picture_trails.php), I eventually figured out that the CMU crowd is very active, and that their site is constantly being updated and enlarged. However, I've had to move on. In any case, both sites are worth your perusal. There are also supposedly 4020 images at http://<URL Automatically Removed>/Gallery/thumbnails.php?album=1648, but I've only skimmed it so far, and it appears far less informative than this site --- a stonewall basically.

I also note that the organization of this portion of the Thaivisa website is extremely confusing for me --- but I presume that this is really just my first exploration. After reading your comment, I had a difficult time getting back to it to respond. I needed to do this to be able to reference _your_ comment, because my references to other points had not been recorded. While the organization is needed, there is some serious overlapping that can get confusing.

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Your 1900s-1920s posts #6 2010-07-26 08:16, '3-7~0.jpg' and #42 2010-08-04 18:02 , 'chiangmai-cafe-1928.jpg' (same photo)

This photo is looking to the northeast from the Tha Pae-Chang Klan (night market street) intersection with Tha Pae Road extending off to the right (east), in 1928 (? the Payap Univ website says 1929), at a still-existing building on the corner which is now a coffee shop. Photo was by Tanaka.

This photo was taken from the same location at your New Forum-Thailand and Siam History Photos (p4) post #89 of 2010-07-25 06:57 '1677.jpg'. This was looking west-southwest with Tha Pae Road extending off to the right. It was taken in 1954 by Boonserm Satrabhaya. A traffic light had just been installed --- visible above the boyscout directing traffic. Either the traffic light didn't work or drivers weren't yet familiar with its operation --- hence the uniform directing traffic.

The two photos, separated by 25 years or so, are an interesting contrast: both have uniforms directing traffic, but presumably for different reasons. The earlier photo carries the comment on the Payap Univ website that the policeman, in his center-of-intersection elevated kiosk, definitely enhanced the movement of traffic through the intersection.

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Your New Forum-Thailand and Siam History Photos post #89 of 2010-07-25 06:57 '1677.jpg'

This is looking west-southwest from the Tha Pae-Chang Klan (night market street) intersection, with Tha Pae Road extending off to the right. This was taken in 1954 by Boonserm Satrabhaya. A traffic light had just been installed --- visible above the boyscout directing traffic. Either the traffic light didn't work or drivers weren't yet familiar with its operation. The building 'Norde Ende' is still there, minus the sign, but the empty lot on the corner is now occupied by a bank. The gabled roof building beyond the Norde Ende (to the west) also still stands: it is identified by Oliver Hargreave in "Exploring Chiang Mai" as a rare example of an old wooden trading house, dating from the late 1800s.

This is the same intersection from which your 1900s-1920s post #6 2010-07-26 08:16, '3-7~0.jpg' and post #42 2010-08-04 18:02, 'chiangmai-cafe-1928.jpg' (same photo) were taken, but it was looking to the northeast in 1928 at yet another still-existing building on the corner which is now a coffee shop. Photo was by Tanaka.

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Your post #28, of 2010-07-31 05:25, 'japanese_lampangchiangmairailway_1943.jpg'

I believe the source for this photo was the Axis History Forum (photo since removed). There it was captioned "Thai and Japanese army engineers working on a section of the Lampang-Chiang Rai railway, April 6, 1943." After its presentation, it was determined that the caption was in error.

There is no rail link between Lampang and Chiang Rai. Conversely, the rail link between Lampang and Chiang Mai had been functioning since 01 Jan 1922. But during WW2, there was no satisfactory road connection from the rail terminus in Chiang Mai to the border. Hence, this photo probably records work on the existing road leading from the rail terminal at Lampang north to the Burmese border (the Phaholyothin Road, now Thai Highway No. 1). If the date is correct, the roadway was being improved to ease support to Thai troops in Kengtung. If, in actual fact much later in the year, the photo could be recording the panic effort to improve that road in support of the IJA's ill-fated attack on Imphal and Kohima which started in the spring of 1944.

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Your post #22 of 2010-07-29 05:09, 'britisharmy_in_thaifrontier_1943.jpg' The image title is misleading. The vehicles appear to be Bedford MWDs, standard British army WW2 fare. However, the British army only penetrated the Thai border after the Japanese surrender in 1945.

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Your post #35, 2010-08-01 05:49, '1907_chiangmai.jpg'. As noted before, this bridge was an earlier structure at the Nawarat crossing. Designed by a Count Roberty, an Italian engineer, the wooden 'bowstring' through-truss bridge was erected between 1906 and 1910, per a surviving dedication plaque. Borneo Co, Ltd, contributed 600 teak logs for its construction. During its life, it was damaged by fire and later fell victim to floating teak logs. It burned in 1921.

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Your post of 2010-08-04 20:32, 'nawarat-bridge_chiangmai_1922.jpg'. As mentioned before, this was looking westerly at the eastern portal of the bridge with Doi Suthep in the right background. In larger photos available in Chiang Mai, the vehicle on the right side of the bridge can be identified as a jeep, which would indicate the photo is post-WW2. '1922' may have come from what appears to be a '2465' date on the right portico; again, use of a larger photo shows the date to be 2466, ie, 1923; per Boonserm Satrabhaya, that was the start date, not the completion date, for construction of the bridge.

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Your post #15, 2010-07-27 17:03, 'K6654701-41.jpg' Judging from the size of the trees in the background, the fleet in the foreground must be ship models --- someone's impressive collection.

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Your post #11, 2010-07-26 12:32, 'BS-CR-BRA001b.jpg', is signed by Boonserm Satrabhaya, the venerable and locally famous photographer of Chiang Mai history. The photo appears in on-line photo collections on both the Chiang Mai University and Payap University websites. Both indicate the photo was taken on a rafting expedition organized by Boonserm in 1952. The jpg title indicates that the photo came from Chiang Mai University's website.

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Your post #3, 2010-07-25 23:27, '100-2.jpg': The woman standing (on the running board?), third from right, appears to be Princess Dara Rasmi. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dara_Rasmi for more info.

Phuket of the early 1920's

Reference your post of 2010-07-25 21:58 with 'p1920s.jpg' of Phuket. The vehicle in that photo is 1950s vintage.

1] Chiang Mai, 1909

First off: beautiful photos! Thank you for sharing them.

There appears to be some confusion regarding your ID on this bridge; ie, 'Chiang Mai, 1909' (your post 2010-07-26 06:51 with 1214930148.jpg)

This is one of several structures called the Nawarat Bridge which crosses the Ping River in Chiang Mai. The view here was looking easterly at the western entrance to the bridge. At the right edge of the photo was Chiang Mai's First Church of Christ; today it is part of a Christian school. I've seen the photo described as showing variously Thai or Japanese troops on the left; at this point, I'm still looking for clarification. Whatever, the flat-topped steeple on the church would suggest the photo was taken during the war: a more-typical 'pointed' steeple roof, a 'spire', had been removed by the Japanese army to make room for a machine gun emplacement. The building behind the power pole was a photo shop operated by a fascinating character, a Japanese national with surname Tanaka: he may very well have been the photographer.

You show the same bridge in your later post of 2010-08-04 20:32 as 'nawarat-bridge_chiangmai_1922.jpg' (image 120953). The view in this other, second, photo is looking westerly at the eastern portal of the bridge with Doi Suthep in the right background.

In any case, the particular structure shown here, a steel truss, was a creature of the arrival of the railroad in Chiang Mai: In 1909, the date specified for this photo, the bridge at that location was a different structure, a wooden 'bowstring' through-truss bridge, which was actually completed around 1910 (or perhaps somewhat earlier). It burned in 1921. You show that earlier wooden bridge in your post of 2010-08-01 05:49 as '1907_chiangmai.jpg' (image 120281). The railroad, which arrived in Chiang Mai in the early 1920s, made practical transporting in a steel, curved top chord Pratt through-truss fabricated by the Cleveland Bridge & Engineering Company (UK). That steel bridge was completed in 1925, it survived WWII --- albeit with at least one Allied-inflicted shell hole in one of the western spans --- into the 1960s, and it was replaced with the current reinforced concrete structure.

I've dealt indirectly with the Nawarat steel truss bridge on Chris Pirazzi's website, 'All About Pai' (http://allaboutpai.com/bridge/). I will deal more directly with it and other Ping River bridges on my own website which is 'still in the works' and there I will properly reference my sources.

. . . The Japanese were using Teak and Iron wood for ship decking . . .

The US Navy also ran battleships with wooden decks during WW2; even flight decks on carriers were wooden: I just ran across a photo of the wooden deck on the Enterprise which fought at Midway. Reasons mentioned on the Internet include:

1. Tradition

2. Metal shortage

3. Metal decks were very slippery (no non-skid surface treatments back then)

4. Metal decks got extremely hot in tropical climates.

Okay, Iain: good details. Unfortunately, CobraSnakeNecktie's comment is right. Japan was short of resources when the war began --- that was the primary reason for its expansionism. And the situation only got worse for the Japanese as the war went on. Steel and cement would never have found their way to the Lisu bridges; just as they never found their way to the bridge at Pai. Wood and rocks were the stuff that Japanese military engineers used for bridges in the north as can be seen in the backwoods west of Khun Yuam.

So the Japanese didn't erect the steel-concrete footbridges. Could they (or the Thai Army) have installed bridges of stone and wood at those locations --- and after the war the Thai government or smugglers or whoever improved them so that what we see today are simply improved structures?

The question then is really to what would the bridges have provided access. With Google Earth, you can go to an oblique view of the area and see the valley there more clearly. The road hugs the western slope of the valley in the area of the bridges. There seems to be no reason for the northerly bridge other than to access a collection of small buildings on the east bank (RTSD 4647 I names the village just to the north as Ban Nong Pha Cham (บ้านหนองผาจ้ำ) and the stream, Huai Nam Rang (ห้วยน้ำราง) --- do those names bear any similarity with what you found on the ground?). Do you know if any of the buildings were there during the war? The reason for the southerly bridge is obscure, at least from what Google shows.

The next level of questioning would target the purpose of the valley road itself. An oblique view looking south up the valley reveals the valley deadending as a watershed about 8 km south, with a dividing ridgeline about 350 m higher than Sop Pong. Google seems to show the road dwindling away and disappearing towards the ridgeline. RTSD 4647 I shows no road at all until 3 km south of the bridges, coming in from 1095 and heading west to disappear on the next map (continuity between RTSD maps is not great). The watershed adjacent to the south flows into the Huai Mae Yan (per RTSD 4647 IV), about 5 km southeast and 400 m lower in elevation; it in turn is a tributary to the Pai, about 6 km further southwest, and 250 m lower. Point is that there doesn't seem to be much of interest to the south of the bridges.

I double checked Point Asia. Unusually, Point Asia's coverage is not as good as Google --- usually Point Asia is better for rural areas; in any case, there is no additional information to be seen. Google's high res would imply that Google has recorded enough hits there to upgrade the quality of coverage (that's the large pale area: the washed out color is misleading. Imagery date is 15 Mar 2008: perhaps the Burmese were burning their fields that day.). Offhand I can't see what would have attracted enough attention in the near present to that area to have motivated Google to improve its coverage.

The border is 20 km north of the bridges, which makes them seem too remote from the border to have been relevant for the Thai Army accessing crossing points.

I've got a copy of a Japanese Army map of the area, but it shows nothing at those locations. To be fair, though, the map is nothing more than a tracing of the applicable Thai government map from around 1920 with place names transliterated into Japanese. The map obviously wouldn't show the bridges, but the map also implies there was nothing of interest to the Japanese in that area. While RTSD current map scales are none too great at 1:50,000, the Japanese maps (and presumably the Thai government maps of the 1920s) were only 1:200,000.

The Royal Thai Army WW2 history shows no relevant detail on maps which include the Lisu bridges area. It does have a map of border crossing points, and no crossings appear in the area generally north of the bridges. I believe that the routes the Thais used both in invading and in leaving Burma were generally from Chiang Dao through Huai Sun (aka Nong Ku), Ban Tha Ton, and Mai Sai, all of which were much farther east. Someone who can read Thai perhaps can explain the other border points, though they would have no bearing on the Lisu bridges.

I don't have much feel for drug-producing areas and smuggling routes within Thailand. External to Thailand, the main access from Burma into Thailand seemed to have been from Monghsat which would have relied on penetrations from Mae Sai through Mae Salong to Huai Sun (Nong Ku). But that whole line is far east of the border north of Sappong.

So the conclusion is that the two bridges had nothing to do with the Second War or smuggling, nor did the valley road. But the problem remains: who built such permanent bridges and why? Real curiosities. You wrote that the Lisu village has been there at least 40 years, which would take it back to 1970 or before. If you travel in that area again, you might try to search out more old folks and see if they recall what was there, in terms of villages and bridges, when they arrived. Maybe the stories will become more detailed. Perhaps more bridges will be revealed. A problem with that approach is the probably lower life expectancy for the Lisu as well as the ravages of senility on their elderly.

The steel-truss bridge in Pai was built not by the Japanese army in WII but rather the Thai government in 1976, as noted on the plaque. When the Japanese came through Pai they used an existing Shan-built footbridge. For heavier equipment they used a river ferry.

Exercise in semantics here. I believe that the plaque you mention is actually several information boards put up by the Pai local government at the southeastern approach to the bridge. If my assumption is in error, please point me to your 'plaque'. Much of the information presented on those boards is grossly in error. First and foremost amongst those errors is the claim that spans from the old Nawarat steel truss bridge were relocated to the Pai River crossing. That is discussed in detail at another site (I seem to be forbidden from including the URL here). I do agree that the Thai government erected the bridge, but not as presented on those boards.

I also agree with you that the Japanese Army used an existing footbridge and a ferry of sorts for moving heavy equipment across the river during high water; I got that from talking with the senior monk at Wat Klang in Pai, but that doesn't match the story on the information boards. I'm curious as to your source?

This is great: a report from the field.

During WW2, there were border penetrations throughout the length of the northern Thai-Burmese border, not so much by the Japanese Army as by the Royal Thai Army. Following the war and to the present, drug and people smuggling has kept many of those penetrations open, as well as adding more.

Offhand, your CIMG6111 appears to show a deck of finished wood. Survival of such from the WW2 era is improbable; but then the bridge at that location might have been maintained after a fashion up to the present. Also that picture seems to show longitudinal steel beams (?) supporting the deck --- very hard to tell. And if true, very unusual. Most of the remains of 'backwoods' bridges in the Khun Yuam area from that era are 100% hewn timbers (decks and floor beams), usually with laid up stone abutments.

While the photos are useful, a description of the bridges would be most helpful:

. Overall lengths

. Span lengths if more than one

. Bearings (directions)

. Widths

. Materials used for decks, floorbeams, underpinning, handrails, handrail supports, etc.

There are some maps of this area available; hence approximate locations are really necessary to go much further. Needed are:

. GPS coordinates ideally

. Verbal descriptions as well, with distances from villages, name(s) of the stream(s) crossed, etc.

Tell us more.

I have had very bad experiences using the Post.Net counter at Carrefour. Paid some bills there, which never actually got paid. Took forever to get my money back.

I can add my own bad experience with Post.Net at Carrefour. Quite by chance, I paid two TOT bills in a row there. Some time later, TOT cut off my service for non-payment. I confirmed the non-payment at a TOT shop, got a printout showing same, presented it to the Post.Net shop along with my receipts. There seemed to be true mortification at Post.Net: after less than five minutes of the lady there thrashing through paper records, she made a phone call. I was promised and had service restored within an hour. End of story? No.

SHE HAD PAID ONLY THE FIRST OF THE BILLS. When the next TOT bill arrived, I found I still owed the second of the two bills. I went to TOT, got confirmation, gave it to Post.Net. The lady was nonchalant this time, said it would take time to straighten out. How much time? An hour. I said I would be back in the hour. When I returned, she said it would take more time but I refused that excuse, pointing out how quickly she had paid the first bill. After some hemming and hawing, she said she could refund, in cash. Okay. She counted out the money, around B1150 and change, carefully arranged the paper money with B100s on the bottom, PULLED OFF THE BOTTOM B100 NOTE, and handed me the sheaf of paper money. I started counting the money in front of her and BEFORE I WAS FINISHED, she had picked up the B100 note she had pulled off and, when my count came up short, she presented me with the B100 note.

I didn't bother with arguing about a refund for the B10 service charge. Never again Post.Net.

I've just run off the local tree butcher, with his machete in hand. My wife had hired him to do some nominal tree trimming. He's done his damage here before and I don't want more of it.

Has anyone had a good experience with any business in the Chiang Mai area that is equipped to prune large trees (long ladders, ropes, saws (not machetes), etc) --- and can do so to Western standards (with thought to the structural integrity of the tree; knows to undercut a vertical cut to prevent stripping out bark 'downstream', properly dressing cuts, etc)?