Rumfoord

..how old are you, talking this nonsense ?

Did you ever study the phenomenon of transsexual people, men AND women ?

I think not, otherwise you wouldn't write the nonsensical theory that a transsexual woman is different than the ""third gender", a Ladyboy. The word Ladyboy refers to kathoey vv and is a name more frequently used in Asia and Thailand rather than the west where people of the so called third gender are called transgender or transsexual.

And, PLEASE refrain from writing disparaging about "cutting off their dicks". It's disgusting language.

Your sentence about ladyboys: "a few maybe cut it off too, but even then it's more some kind a body modification.." would be laughable if it was not so sad, the way you speak about ladyboys and the fact that it's completely far off reality

There's no doubt that the vast majority of Ladyboys (read transsexual/transgender) in Thailand are desperately seeking a way out and will fight to reach their goal: to have an operation to become what they are really after: Being, feeling and finally living as a woman.

You probably don't know since you're new here on TV but one of the most respected and highly educated members on Thaivisa is a Lady of high class, from a respectable family in Thailand and also very well respected on this forum !

She is 100% a Lady but was born as transgender/transsexual/ladyboy/kathoey; whatever you want to call her.

That doesn't make her less a human being than you or me; on the contrary; she's an example to many in the same situation.

LaoPo

no, and a you made a couple of wrongs. i am talking in a simplified "gender studies" model. as introduced by wintermute: "It's "<deleted>" because it doesn't have any relevance to actual studies done in sociology because it's just your own uneducated opinion. Gender is defined by environment and culture aside from physical differences." you are maybe not familiar with that theory and so cannot understand me.

Sex is not the same like gender. Sex is your biological definition XX/XY. Gender is cultural construction. Different between different cultures and different times.

In addition, transsexual is not the same like transgender.

the gender role of man and woman 500 years ago, or even 50 years ago different than from today. take a woman, how she become a woman is formed by the society and the norms around her, there are expectations how a woman should act and behave. same for man.

There are cultural societies with a very narrow view how a 'normal' man or woman have to be and societies with a much broader concept. some people are not happy with their gender role they got from outside. Call them trans gender, it isn't maybe the best choice of words because it implies maybe a movement between the poles male or female. if a boy or a girl isn't so satisfied to fulfil all the rituals and activities 'normal' man and woman do, doesn't mean that this person want to become a member of the opposite sex. That is only the goal for a subgroup of the so-called transgender people, transsexual people.

I guess the TVmember you are talking about is B.b.. I would say she is a woman, a transsexual woman and not a ladyboy. i never said that i look down at transsexuall people or call them less then other people. No idea how you came to that conclusion.

i just don't want put any variation of "deviance" from the "normal" gender conception into one pot, call them trans-whatever and call them all the third gender. that a over simplification.

ladyboys are somewhere else in the imaginary coordinate system of gender. and the coordinate system gender is a multidimensionality space and not just a linear connection between the constructed poles male on one side and female on the other. transsexual people using that route but in the broader sense - transgender people can float in all direction the want to do in the coordinate system gender. explore new positions. drifting away from one pole you don't have to head to the opposite sex.

you made the mistake you blame brigante7 for. You think one-dimensional. your definition just have 2 fixed poles, man and woman, and a transit way with stopping restriction in between. that isn't so flexible.

the brigante7 model enlarged is more efficient. Axiom - there are two sexes male and female. Imagine a model of two spheres floating in space. One is surrounded by blue clouds, the other with pink clouds. Male and female. Individuals are connected with an imaginary umbilical cord to the center of their sphere. Guess what, symbolizing the biological sex.but it's possible to drift and float around, away from the center, moving to the left corner makes you maybe gay because of thinner air or what ever. all near the center is considered 'normal', moving more away, you become somehow deviant. In addition, the umbilical cord is even long enough that you move form the blue clouds into the pink clouds, that pitch your voice higher and you feel the urge to wear high heels and ca do what ever you want, but there is still the imaginary umbilical cord. Who cares? You are in a biological sense still a man, but floating in pink clouds you can ignore that. That exactly what sociology theory gender studies does. Ignore the biological gender/sex.

I give brigante7 the point, for his basic Natural science viewpoint. Natural science rocks. and all of you talk at cross purposes. looking at a green ball, one said 'it's a ball', the other 'no you stupid, it's green'.

A problem with "cut off dicks" why? a term like phallus would sounds to much psychoanalytic, a pseudo science. I wanted that my description of a body and gender modifications sounds brutish. like a branding tattoo. (i know the surgical procedure is different) and why is that modification sad? it's self-paced.

and that the way people talking here, take the line "good Jewish women who "suck cock and take it up the shitter", there was no objections. Albeit there is a difference in the act, because it involved an other person, penetration of an other person. Sexual male dominance, dick dominance. Shoving dicks up somebody else shitter, is not only a variety of sexual orientation but also a self-reflexive gender definition.

Despite all cultural norms and codes, dicks a pretty animally and effective weapons in the gender discourse. Even as word. Simple dick behaviour or the handle of dick plays a role how to define 'gender'. Even if the dick is absence or got just ignored, like by an asexual (male) for example.

Back to my model of the coordinate system of gender. there it isn't a "transgender/transsexual/ladyboy/kathoey; whatever you want to call" easy way of definition. it's more complicated. Those four terms are different categories and intersection. You cannot swap one for the other. Transgender is a big umbrella term and is not equal the third gender. Transsexual stands for the desire to be a member of the opposite sex (the biological sex). Or when you reached that goal, that you had been born with the opposite gender. Like a transsexual man, is a man that was born with the physical look of a woman, but always felt as boy or man.

Kathoy a very broad Thai term, used for a male who lacks masculinity, can include the group that got called in the west 'ladyboys' and the term is used synonym where a western observer would maybe choose the term gay to describe a person. (what doesn't mean that he have to be gay)

ladyboy is mainly a western definition and it includes dick, that can be researched with google image search.

The third gender, transgender person, and in the case of ladyboys, transgender persons that moved away from their born as physical man gender. They are not men.

Not to be a man, does not mean to be a woman. They are also not transsexual woman.

LaoPo, before you call that nonsense again. Please deliver some definition or postulate a new, so we can have a basis to talk about the same green ball.

All the people on this forum in the camp of the yellow shirts are probably having a girl friend from the entertainment business. ...

Well, you have managed to flame most of TVF in one swoop.

Must make you feel proud!

...

are here so much 'yellow shirts'=PAD in the forum? i doubt that.  are you a yellow shirt supporter?

and why care.what the revolutionary fighter for the poor predict on big changes quickly and unexpectedly.

your story about all the brain rocket scientist that choose a rural contryside lifestyle vs. could make MUCH; MUCH more money elsewhere doesnt sound so convincing too.

anyway.

why would it turned into a riot if there weren't a big security and lot's of restrictions. before songkran the have been weeks of mass gatherings by the red, went almost unnoticed, without any problems.

but such confrontation is asking for escalations.

i think there is also not a real law or concept that would handle such or any demonstrations. like a requirement to notify the municipal authorities a couple of days or weeks beforehand and then maybe developed a route and time schedule across some streets for a protest march together with the authorities. or close off half or the entire road where your protestors are gathering in front of some office building. police can monitor your demonstration, provide security, help you, give logistic support or just keep you under control. depends... meanwhile traffic can be redirected on other streets and so on and so on.

like you still have your right to assembly and protest in public places, but certain areas of town will always be off limit and you have to march a certain route and everything is planned.

not sure if such law exist in bangkok. the yellow and the red protest seems to have been legal to a certain point under some 'Right to Protest' but there wasn't much coordination and some chaos was created that could have been avoided with better planning. there isn't much law that prevents uncontrolled mass gatherings and the only instruments the authorities have at hand is something like the Internal Security Act and or if your are using a truck with a sound system they can charge you with using electrically amplified loud speakers without permission and that would give the authorities some rights to intercept you. but i guess that is just some workaround, the law about to need a permission for using loudspeaker was more designed to prevent too much noise pollution and keep advertising pick-ups under control. Noise pollution, yes- such law exist and i was eye and ear witness of some small scale open air parties form bangkok universities that got shut down in the evening because of noise.

all that scary talks about possible riots and clashes between different groups (who?) could be become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

LaoPo it was not aimed at you. Sorry if you misunderstood.

Scots reference.

Thanks

LaoPo

Ah, Goodwife,

Mea Culpa..... well yes I did take Latin back in the day. 1968. Hated it.

Dad used to teach it too, didn't make me like it more.

Veni vidi vici, carpe deum, quid pro quo, ad infinitum.

Oh if you look, you can find me admitting mistakes many times here.

I am perfectly willing to change my point of view IF new information

comes to my attention that invalidates my past perceptions.

PS you have mail.

why not

keep talking

here open

for everyone to read.

don't you

think

other could be

interested in more

details

of your daddys

language teacher skills

back the days in

1968&1969?

"PS you have mail." sounds almost like a big romance.

Got Milk?

Funny they choose color "RED" for their symbols. The color of blood and violence

...and communism and anti-royalist.

Red notoriously is the color of revolution as in the instance of the PRC; the former USSR etc.

Red is also the colour of Santa Claus, a Whiskey label, tomato ketchup, 'Lady in Red' - a song of Chris de Burgh and the nose of Rudolph the Reindeer is red too.

Red is a traditional chinese symbol for fortune and happiness.

and RED is even part of the Thai Flag.

Accusing the Red Shirts without having clear proof is about as ugly as manufacturing the recording.

Abhisit doesn't need a clear proof that he didn't say any of those things he is accused of. He was there.

Yes.

And if you would have followed my posts here you would have seen that in no post have i denied that the recording was manufactured. It is proven beyond doubt that the recording was clearly manufactured.

What i argue here is the mistaken conclusion that the tape might have necessarily came from the Red Shirts themselves. There are many other possibilities of factions on all sides of the conflict who have vested interests in escalation, and who have brought this into circulation.

If you believe Abhisit you don't need to read any of those things some heretic maybe had not said at all. Abhisit was somewhere.

ps. from The Bangkok Post about this case and the consequences an email forward could bear:

Atthawit Suwanpaksi, the Democrat deputy spokesman, said forwarding false information is a violation of Article 94 of the Political Party Act and this could lead to a party dissolution. The Democrat Party will meet to decide on future action, he said.

...

The website that released the audio clip had already been shut down, Information and Communications Technology Minister Ranongrak Suwanchawee said. She had ordered its closure. When asked whether it the sound clip had been edited to alter its meaning, the ICT minister said it was the responsibility of forensic science officials to find out. She stressed that stringent legal action under the computer crime law would be taken against all those who forwarded the email containing the audio track.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/1...om-thaksin-firm

I hope Da Torpedo does not get off so easy.

Why is that TAWP?

LaoPo

You mean, why I hope she doesn't get pardoned in December?

Since a direct threat upon a very special family's life's isn't a matter of insults and I can understand the anger her speech has stirred in some groups. She was calling for blood in a very direct way.

no she wasn't. and in no way in a very direct way.

but talking about the French Revolution 1789 could be become difficult in Thailand.

that isn't a big day for democracy in thailand. but didn't had the democrats a couple of month ago a proposal to sharpen law and sentence for LM crimes?

like an extention to control new media like the internet better and also double possible sentences.

gender bender hullabaloo, isnt that a late night cable show from Austria? I think your thesis title should be "chicks with dicks".

No, is not about chicks. Do you think they are chicks?

but you are right it's about dicks. and more about the question are they are men or not. and if a dick makes you obligatory to a man.

and there is the difference between biological gender sexes like male and female and the gender as sociology term, man or woman, in the later case is gender just a social cultural construction. gender studies, an interdisciplinary field, good for many things and everybody can have his own opinion. and next to many other things this gender concept gives us the change to have much more kinds of gender roles and gender identities than just male and female, a more differentiated system.

There are transsexual woman. they feel like biological woman that are born in a wrong body. usually they cut off their dicks or try to ignore for themselves that they have dicks and try hard to live a life as woman. in the in the narrow sense of the word i wouldn't call them ladyboys. they are are transsexual woman. the dick doesn't play a role in their life.

the third gender, ladyboys act different. LB mostly come with dicks. the dick plays a role in their life. is important.

a few maybe cut it off too, but even then it's more some kind a body modification, then a gender switch. they define themselves about the absence of their dicks, but are still ladyboys and act like ladyboys and doesn't become transsexual woman.

someone before me said they are not men, okay. talk about this later. i wanted to add that they are also not woman.

another theory: chicks with dicks, but i guess it's mostly based on the cool rhyme.

and the third gender isn't a category of a physical law, like the First law of thermodynamics. it's just part of an abstract model, a theoretical concept, one could developed a model with 57 different categories or just 2 like brigante7 did. there are only men and woman, some men have maybe a little bit longer hair and like to wear pink nail polish and some woman can not cook but drive a car and prefer women over men. in general, there are only men or woman. and actually he is right. and could argue with the acceptance of an additional gender, the third gender, next to male and female. why not a 4.,5.6. an7. gender as social construct or even more and more and to keep it simple some broad rule of male and female. and born with a penis=man. that is just another model, with an other definition and not totally wrong. that gender theory started as feminist argument that the difference between man and woman are not natural differences but nothing more then social constructs but there should be equal rights and opportunities for both.

to diss brigante7 you must came forward with better definitions of the third gender. LB are not woman, not 'real' woman, not transsexual woman, not woman (as a social and cultural constructed gender), not men (as in the cultural construction of a male gender), they have dicks.

hormone therapy and plastic surgery for (pervious) man - isn't that just crazy modern times, like longhaired male hippies didn't became a new gender in the 60ies and are still men like the metrosexual boys of the last decade?

and there are more questions and some needs for definitions. that third gender- whats it's sexual orientation? the third gender dates and mates with what other gender, are there any preferences? and which gender is into the third gender. are the terms straight, lesbian, gay or hetero, homo, bi sexual enough to describe these relationships? have been there any tests like those where a large sample of whale hunter and dog haters were given a questionnaire to put in a room with a device attached to their penis that measured the smallest amount of erectile excitement (true story!) and then watch Flipper and Lassie videos. Quite significantly, the most outwardly dolphinophobic had the greatest arousal.

Sigh. Here we go again: cue closet ladyboy fanciers who want to talk about 'gay men' liking ladyboys. cue me reminding them that the ladyboy bars are in the straight entertainment districts. Repeat ad infinitum.

Capital punishment - death - is extremely cruel for doing what comes naturally, for something like anal or oral penile penetration, which the Hebrew God apparently blesses for straights. Yet while executions are mentioned for other crimes, none is ever recorded for this ritual uncleanness. There is no evidence that Hebrews or Jews ever followed this command to execute gays. The New Testament never mentions it, and the subject was ignored in the early centuries of Christian history.

Here we are in Thailand, a Buddhist country.

i don't find ladyboys attractice , and i am sure that i am not gay. what is a "straight entertainment districts" anyway?

how comes that a few gays here immediately tell the others, that they as gays have nothing to do with ladyboys and claim that is a straight thing, meanwhile others grab the change and lecture about the issues of being gay in the history of the early Christian times. have the first somekind of a ladyboy phobia?

why draw such a strict line in what is gay and what is straight and what not. the thai word kathoey doesn't make big distinction here.

"ladyboy" is a very broad term and they come in many variation as Hermaphrodite (born with two sexes), as woman (in the transsexual sense, born in a wrong body), as a third gender and as transvestites (cross dresser, males dressed as females, taking female hormones). in addition a kathoey can be also a very girlyman gayboy, make up maybe, without any crossdressing. you can see them, met all this kinds of ladyboys in different parts of the society, in various occupations.

whereat the ladyboy bars in the entertainment districts not places are where you can make field studies about this phenomenon. only very loud, noisy and shrill "phenotypes" you will met there.

if i search google images for ladyboys i got very explicit results. photos of ladyboys of the bar category i guess. mostly pornographic photos and lots of photos focussed on the cock. that makes them very male looking and for me as the viewer (a heterosexual man who likes woman) any femininity is lost. it reminds me more on photos of gay males. but okay, there are still tits and a slim body that maybe turns a gay who likes real man also not on, despite the hugh dick.

but having a look at the google image results i come to the conclusion that this "ladyboy thing" is more about cock worship. and persons who are into that kind of ladyboys seems to admire cocks.it's not about having perfect boobs or be(coming) a woman. this kind of 'ladyboy' isn't from "the born in the wrong body" category.

is that the definition of the third gender? female attributes are not choosen to become a woman or more like a woman, that is not the goal. the goal is to distinguish themself from a primary male appearance. a 'female' look just the only choice to reach that goal. and also a lot of them can not hide or do not deny the fact that they are not woman.

on the other hand, in a full reverse direction is a person like "Buck Angel". a transexual female to male person. google the name. s/he look like a real man, and i think want it to be, a 'man' and not somekind of third gender. but he still have a pussy and makes porn. very masculine but without cock. does it look gay, or is that also somekind of cue closeted straight thing. and gay only a pure real male-male thing without any gender bender hullabaloo.

Ah – Tattoos, aka the “Tramp Stamp”.

The ultimate admission of worthlessness and self-repugnance.

Why do so many Bargirls and Porn “Stars” have tattoos?

QED

Patrick

you should also have a look at other people and not only bargirls or porn movies and you will see stupid people from many walks of life have now tattoos, it isn't just a tramp stamp anymore. there are tattoo studios in every shopping mall in the west.

and tattoo removal will become a big business in the near future.

Sorry, but im getting tired of all this pro-women justice stuff going around. I dont know about you but when i go to Pattaya, just how many women do i see throwing a tantrum with some guy and try to beat him up or smash a bottle over his head.

...

Sometimes i wish i was born a woman.

so you wanna become a woman?

and go to pattaya and there smash bottles over the heads of some guys? do it just like , in your opinion., typical women do?

Engineer Mr. Uwe Keienburg worked with/for Vinci Consulting Co., Ltd. - Thailand.

Vinci Consulting seems to be a respectable engineering/infrastructure and consulting company in Thailand:

vinciconsulting.net/index2.html

i don't know if the look of that website makes vinci consulting to a "respectable engineering/infrastructure and consulting company". there is a lack references of sucessful projects in the past.

if i check the whois of vinciconsulting, i come to the healthmedasia.com adress.  it's long gone, but few bits are on archive org. web.archive.org/web/*/healthmedasia.com

check this for example: web.archive.org/web/20040903095029/healthmedasia.com/introduction.htm

that looks like an odd business concept.

why is it so unbelievable that people commit suicide? it's a sad thing, but it happen.

the detonation cord looks like a leaveless twig to me. or some other piece of string.

maybe he just made some small installation that the grenade hangs in the air and he have his hands free for a last prayer. or constructed somekind of a booby-trap, to be triggered by himself and explode behind his back. he could had fixed the grenade and the trigger with 2 different strings and when he moved forward the trigger got released. did some ritual or last meditation, before he felt ready to go and make his last step forward and it made just a click noise behind his back.

psychologically maybe an easier process than hold the grenade in your own hand and face it for your last few seconds.

Mr. Noppadon, please shut up! Nobody is going to believe you!

why not?

i would more believe him then trust the information given by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs or some nonsense from The Nation. just look at all the UAE and Thaksin stories the came form the MFA.