charlie10

"I'm a little bit surprised to hear you think a person can make good profit and money from 10 rai of land. What are you growing and selling?"

Charlie I never said a good profit, I said a good living. In a rural setting 10 rai farmed with the right crops/livestock during the right conditions and the right land to start with, you can earn more than you could teaching the 2nd most popular choice of profession for expats.

Growing Rice isn't a crop that you can make a profit from small scale so why bother. Unless it is only for your own needs. Personally, I believe in subsistence farming. You lower your own cost of living by being self sufficient. That should only take about 1-2 rai to support a family with rotating gardens, fish pond, certain livestock, and rice if you really want to do it. I personally don't do rice, too much effort for me.

Don't raise crops just because that is what your partner's family has been doing for 50 years. Llamyai used to be the crash crop of the north, wouldn't even pay for your water and fertilizer to grow them now though.

Good to hear you are making a go of self sufficiency. I've gone down that line with a just under 2 rai of land close to where we live and separate from the rice fields. Pigs, chickens, ducks, raised vegetable beds, fruit trees (yet to bear fruit) etc. Lots of hard physical work, but having fun fulfiling a dream and living a new new way of life tied to land and nature. Results to date: definitely not large scale or intensive enough to generate sufficient money to live. Luckily I have other sources of income and so it's not a problem. The lack of water availability and poor soil (sand) does limit the vegetable growing.The climate does too in terms of what can be grown. What we grow we eat. Not enough really to sell. The rice is what the family do (although I help in the fields for the 4 -5 weeks of harvesting - great fun, the highlight of the year) and i keep well away from any interference with that aspect of farming. It's their livelihood and something they know how to do, and do well. We benefit from a good supply of rice throughout the year and they get the pittance paid for the excess hulled rice we don't need to keep for eating or future seeds.

The options of growing something other than rice appears to be extremely limited in our area - perhaps sweet potato's, euca trees, sugar cane. These crops can grow in our immediate area but few people seem to bother other than the growing of euca trees on land not suitable for rice. That makes me wonder why? Not enough money in it? Don't grow well enough? A neighbour is trying rubber trees - have to see whether that works out as no-one else is growing this in our general area so not sure whether this is a soil, water, climate issue or not. Further North (150km+ away where there is higher altitude and better soil) rubber trees are a major crop and income source so is there a reason why it isn't in my area?. Another neighbour tried growing water melons over a few rai. He got a reasonable crop but has never repeated the planting, so I think that says something about whether it was worth his time and effort. It's possible to try something completely new but the risks of crop failure is likely to be high. The local people grow and don't grow crops for a reason, and it's not always just because they are ignorant or tied to a tradition. They often know what crops can grow or cannot in an area. I've certainly seen that with my vegetable growing in the suan when I've tried growing something different to what is generally grown around here and failed.

So back to whether you can make enough profit from farming to support yourself and extended family. For me it looks like the answer is no. The returns are certainly unlikely to be worth the effort. I can make much more money in other businesses for far less investment, time or business costs, and I do. However, I enjoy raising livestock and growing vegetables and I will continue to this as part of a back to land, and nature, self reliance outlook on life. Living in Thailand has given me the opportunity to do this, and I am grateful.

I think that small scale is a very open term. For Australian herders anything under 100k head is small scale. I grew up on a farm in the US about 20 acres with 250 head of sheep, and all the other stuff. It didn't make us rich, but made a profit. Not huge but still a profit is better than none.

I think that with the right effort and commitment even foreigners here with spouse and local support can provide a good living for their families on less than 10 rai. A teacher here might earn about 250k-400k baht a year, but someone farming that has enough for start up costs and operating costs while figuring things out, can make equal to that plus the added satisfaction of working with the land. Also you will probably have less living expenses providing food for yourself. I know that I trade some of my harvests of veggies (granted small amounts) with some local markets for future amounts of produce for them. So if I have 10 kilos of lemon grass today, I bring to them and get a few handfuls spread out through the year when I need it. I also try and grow things slightly before or after most local harvests. If you know when the market is flooded getting in before or a few weeks after can often give you better prices. but also can increase costs by needing to water more or fertilize more.

I think that farming is something like bar owners, they think if I just spend some money and open my bar/farm I'll make profit right away. need to really get out there and know your local community and not just rely on the spouse to do that for you. I know my wife has nothing to do with selling or bargaining with people. I need to make contacts myself as she is too shy for that.

Agreed. Size is all relative. 100k + of head certainly doesn't fit my definition of small scale farming for sure. Unfortunately I do think that making money out of farming is a numbers game given low profit per head when livestock raising. I'm a little bit surprised to hear you think a person can make good profit and money from 10 rai of land. What are you growing and selling? We have 27 rai of land, poor quality, no water outside the rainy season and grow 1 crop of rice a year. I suspect what we get back after costs would barely enable a falang to live in the style he is accustomed to for very long - maybe 1-2 months if that. Indeed most Thais who I know who are dependent on income from only the rice harvest are now struggling and reliant on other sources of income. Fortunately they are able to live at a fraction of the cost to a falang. The gap is closing though. Where you do save of course is the fact you don't have to buy the expensive rice in the shops so adding that saving up over a year does add to a 'hidden' income benefit.

I think you do mention a very important in point in your post re selling and bargaining. If you are able to do it yourself you may be able to make things happen and get a better return for your produce, but the reality for most I think is that we are reliant on wives and their willingness and ability to get a good deal. The notion that Thailand s a country of barter and barganing though seems less pertinent when it comes to selling livestock and crops. I find there is an amazing amount of price rigidity and a lack of willingness on the buyer to negotiate. I remember when for half a year the price of pork per kilo for 'live' meat went up from around 50b/kilo to a government set 85baht / kilo for the Isaan region where I live. The result. People's price perceptions for 'live' meat never moved; we struggled to get 55 baht / kilo and with the glut of options these buyers have and the local producers ignorant of the price move, you sell at that price or don't sell. The killer was that feed prices had seriously increased prior and during that period, but again, the locals never look at the cost of production, just what they get in their hand when they sell. It is in such a market and in such situations that many falang farmers have to operate in. And that's why I suspect when you look at the poll results to date, only 1 person is claiming to make a income (by the sounds of it RedBullHorn?) whilst the vast majority of other people who voted indicate they are not making sufficient money.

Interesting to hear the views of whether falang farmers are making money. Personally i don't think there is any money to made from farming particularly on small scale and not here in Thailand. Also, depends on your definition of making money. Here, like most countries around the world the producer is getting squeezed and driven out of business whilst the middle man, retailers and big business rake in the profits. When it comes to products like rice, pork, chickens, eggs, rubber and the like, all commodity markets, where supply impacts directly on price as does market structure. All over supplied and all giving piss poor margin to the hard working producer. It's a never ending assault. We get into diabolical situations of soaring feed prices whilst selling prices stagnate, or worse, decline. You're never going to win big here. And it's hard physical work along the way. This sounds all very bleak, and it is. But, there are the upsides of keeping yourself occupied, giving you an interest in life and and the warped sense of self esteem you have in knowing that you are not sitting on your back side all day and are actually making some kind of income and fulfilling some kind of dream in what you do.

p.s. It's been a long while since my last visit here. Good to see you still active on the forum Isaan Aussie!

Its Isaan Thai. nOOb is correct in her literal translation but it doesn't really convey the essence of the sentence fully. The general sense of the phrase means 'If we love each other why are you treating me like this?'

The Lao-Thai-English dictionary is pretty good especially as you can read Thai and Lao. It's packed with words, is 761 pages long, has two columns of words down a page, and comes in hardback form and is not pocket size. Words are written in Lao, you then get it in transliterated form and then the Thai equivalent word in Thai script and transliterated form plus the English meaning of the word. Tones are indicated. In the index is an alphabetical list of English words and an indication of what page you can find the Lao / Thai word. I really like this source because unlike existing Lao dictionaries it really does contain 'proper' Lao words and is not just a quick version of the Thai dictionary equivalent.

I not quite sure where you will find this dictionary. I got it in a small Thai bookshop in Khon Kaen which has now closed down. I've not seen it elsewhere. It is a Lao publication. It looks like it was published in 1997.The inside page reads: Ministry of Information and Culture, Institute for Cultural Research, Vientiane, PO BOX 5246, Lao PDR. Tel: 212009212023. The ISBN barcode number is: 974-553-758-6. That might help you track it down in Lao.

I hope that helps.

Nan, I wish you all the best with the site. I did have some trouble finding your phrases hidden amongst all the adverts. Eventually figured it out. It might be an idea to direct people there when they land on your home page. (e.g. by telling people phrases are in the side panel on the left).

As this thread is headed New Online Thai Lessons I think it worthwhile mentioning to interested parties another new online learning site that just been launched that is also a boon for anyone wishing to learn Thai.

The Learn Speak Thai Online website is offering Beginner and Intermediate Thai online language courses. The lessons have audio clickable text, slideshows, flash card and matching word games. They have colour coded words with a clear phonentic system and tone mark graphics. Best of all they are currently offering access to about 100 free lessons and flash card games, no sign-up or purchase required. It's well worth a look.

www.LearnSpeakThaiOnline.com

I would suggest look at some of the online courses available and commit to working through one of the courses if actually going along to a language school is impractical or impossible given where you live. Once this has given you a good grasp of the basics and the most commonly used words mixing with Thai people and listening in on their conversations will all help bring your language ability and understanding along. As will listening to Thai radio stations and watching Thai TV (news and soaps).

There's a new Thai online language course just out worth a look. They're currently offering about 100 FREE lessons and flash card games, no sign-up or purchase required. All the lessons have audio clickable text, slideshows and flash card and matching word games which really helps teach correct pronunciation. It may be something that can help you with your Thai speaking and understanding.

www. LearnSpeakThaiOnline.com

A new online course has just been launched. Learn Speak Thai Online offers interactive beginner and intermediate online courses in Thai and Isaan Thai.

The online lessons have clickable audio text and slideshows and there are 100's of audio flash card and matching words games to help your learning along. At the moment they're offering access to about 100 free lessons and games for FREE , no sign up or purchase necessary. Worth checking out!

www.LearnSpeakThaiOnline.com

I'm currently reviewing the composition of the pig feeds I give my pigs as a result of having read Whitmores Science and Practice of Pig Production. This outlines in detail the feeding strategies needed to raise pigs to certain weights and the required crude protein composition one should be aiming for. The use of digestible energy (DE), crude protein (CP) and Lysine (amino acids) measures for each ingredient to get to a total DE delivery target is a new approach for me and is certainly somewhat more precise than the rather general protein and carbohydrate levels I'd been focussing on before. So I need some help.

I tend to use a mix of rum, sweet corn, chicken powder, soya bean, vitamins, plus red soil to provide essential minerals and promote good digestion. Fresh greens also form part of the diet. I've run these ingredients into the model I've built and it seems I was hitting a good CP level generally. However, my feed mix does need tweaking to better cater for the various life stages. I 'm therefore looking at other sources of ingredients that could provide good nutrition that adds to my present mix.

I'm thinking about including 'kaow bplai' into this mix as well as using a small portion of pre mix from CPF (551,552,553 etc). What I need though is to get hold of some reliable nutrition data on these items in the form of:

DE(MJ/Kg) in ingredient, in diet,

CP (g/kg) in ingredient and diet

Lysine (g/kg) in ingredinet and diet

Thay way I can build the calculations into my model to ensure I'm hitting the right digestible energy targets for the different types of feed I make.

Has anyone got any nutritional information on these ingredients that could be of help?

Or know of a data source that would have this information in the format I need?

Any assistance or guidance would be appreciated as I've spent a fairly fruitless day trying to find this info on the internet.

Many thanks.

Frankly...i couldn't care more, i'm running a farm business for livinghood, not a shelter or rescue center, others can call it what they want !... As long as there's no sign of stress or absurd abuse (there's people caught mounting sow with their pants down)

People that want to consider very good welfare, should take them in as pets, shouldn't farm piggeries, shouldn't raise them for slaughter, should turn vegetarian and not eat meat !!!...We have abbots betting underground lotteries and eating meat !...Criticise that ~

Well said RBH,

It is a business for me too. The future of the pigs is pre-ordained, and pre-planned. I mean them no harm but most are ultimately going to die young. That means caring well for the pigs to protect the investment.

Isaanaussie

Sorry RedBullHorn but comments like yours just beggar belief. The empty bravado of a man who values nothing but the additional few baht. Sad and sickening and totally unnecessary. Land, cost of buildings, cost of feed are all so cheap in Thailand that providing some additional space, providing an environment that respects the behaviorial needs of the pig and giving considerate animal husbandry is such a small cost compared to the huge cost to your soul your attitude brings.

I don't raise pets either. I raise pigs for sale and slaughter. And yes, for the money too. But I get so more back than just that, as most good pig farmers woud know. It's not weak to raise with love and slaughter with kindness. Not girly to care about every aspect of your pigs welfare. It just responsible pig raising. One day you may realise that.

Isaanaussie.

I have had my moments also about the cruelty aspect of gestation crate but at the end of the day i came to the conclusion that it is a pig business and not a zoo that i am running.(maybe only to ease my conscience).

Sorry to interupt the love in but looking to acquire sow stalls in this day and age? You've got to be joking. The long overdue European Union ban kicks in begginning 2013 if memory serves right and for good reason. Sow stalls inflict huge suffering on the animal you pretend to care about. You're lucky you're not running a zoo - the space requirements set there would shut you down overnight if the visiting public didn't do you in first. So, be a good fella, stir a few brain cells and wise up. There are many other higher welfare options for raising and breeding from sows that don't include the systematic cruelty and deprivation of sows stalls, or even farrowing crates come to that. If you have no empathy for the animals you are raising you shouldn't be in the business of raising them. So, perhaps you ought to consider your carear options.

I'm sorry if this is all a bit strong, but I raise pigs and feel strongly that they should be treated decently. There is absoutely no sound reason whatsoever for keeping sows immobilised in sow stalls. And the weight of scientific and vetinary knowledge recognises the sheer evil of this. Please rethink.

Not one for slaughter houses. Best to butcher on site - no stress and distress for the animal. That's important to me.

Most locals know how to kill and cut up pigs(or indeed most other animals). One knock over the head with a wooden 'club' and a sticking knife in the jugular is the method preferred for killing pigs in my village. The blood is kept for use in cooking. It's quick and no suffering as far as I can see. It's done outdoors Thai style, and the meat gets sold that morning to the locals as a lahb making kit with a range of meat and offal cuts and a small bag of blood. We have no problems with flies during this slaugher and cutting up process and as the meat is consumed that day no health dangers.

If anyone does know where to get a stun gun I'd be interested as it would offer a less brutal looking and sure fire way of ensuring the pig is properly stunned.

Re bag over head method: is a plastic bag used or is it simply a large rice bag like those used to store rice in a rice shed? It sounds like a less violent way of rendering the animal unconcious if indeed it doesn't struggle during the suffocation process.

I can't believe it. I was actually visiting this Thai Visa forum to track down one of his threads to re-read some information on pig farming he had so graciously offered, to be hit with this news of his passing. A real shock, and it must be said, a great loss to this Thai farming forum. He was so very active in his participation here, and his breadth of knowledge and willingness to offer help and advice will be badly missed.

I feel absolutely gutted. Although my direct experience of Fruity has been limited and only relatively recent, I must say I feel a great loss. His contributions to the two threads I initiated were immense, but I guess that can be said of so many of the threads he contributed to here. His love of pigs shone through the series of responses and contributions to those threads, and with it, much of his admirable qualities and character as a man. Despite such a short and distant acquaintance I feel such a loss.

My commiserations to his family. And to you too Isaan Aussie, as it clear he was such a good friend and mentor to you.

R.I.P. Fruity. You'll be so missed.

Fantastic thread. Some great comments and insight based on experience and some really good advice.

For what it's worth here's my two penneth worth.

Want to make money in Isaan?

1) Have a portfolio of cash making opportunities. Don't put all your money in just one thing. You need cash cows to support the other lower money generating businesses you may want to do.

2) Sell to the farang. That's the only way you're going to get any kind of meaningful return on your investment. You're never going to make great money selling to the Thai. The prices you will have to charge and the profit margins are simply too low. That means either:

a: Thinking globally rather than locally to develop a busines that can become your cash cow. Find something you can sell to the farang over the interent. Access a global market where peope actually have money and are prepared to pay more than a few hundred baht for something. Sell via your own website, ebay, Amazon etc.

b: Investing where the tourists are in Thailand rather than locally in Isaan. Getting the tourist or even expat dollar in Isaan is difficult. Of the former there are too few, and of the latter, most have adjusted to Thai pricing expecatations and so anything you sell will most likley have to be low price, low profit.

The key thing to remember is that making any kind of meaningful money in the Western sense over here is very very difficult, although as you can see from the thread, some of been relatively successful at this. Note the word relatively. As Isaan Aussie very perceptively said earlier in the thread, you really need to understand what you want out of your investment. I would suggest if it's just good money then you may struggle.

I survive here on revenue from 3 things:

1) A very small rental income from my house in the U.K.

2) A very small income from selling a ''high' profit product over the internet to people living outside Thailand. This will become cash cow of sorts once my initial product investment costs are paid up.

3) A very small income from raising pigs. The latter is extremely hands on, hard manual work, and only worth it due to the fact that this physical work, and the raising pigs in a high welfare system, makes me happy. It offers me an escape from sitting at the PC all day and connects me with the rural farming way of life that surounds me.

None of these money making activities will ever make me rich, not even by local Isaan standards. But what they give me is the opportunity to live an endlessly interesting, fulfilling and enjoyable life in the one part of the world I really love. That's Isaan.

Therefore, I really advise you to think long and hard what you want out of your life over here, and how you will judge your success, both personally and professionally, before you do any investing of money.

Just to add a happier note to this thread.

Last night, the sister to the sow who had such a disappointing number of piglets, gave birth to 13 healthy piglets. No dead births. Pretty much a model labour with a nice quick frequency between births. Only one longish delay between delivery of third and fourth piglet (45 minutes) and just as I was considering administering some Oxytocin, bingo, the next piglet arrived. Gave Oxytocin after the 11 th piglet came out. No problems with the last two piglet deliveries or the afterbirth expulsion. Both mother and little un's seem in fine fettle today. Now that I've caught up on some sleep, I'm not feeling too bad either!

Fruity, many thanks for your full and detailed response. Very much appreciated. Before I say anything more, please accept my commiserations on your lost gilt. An awful situation and no doubt heart-wrenching to you to watch her slowly die, made even more so by your thought that if you had done things differently the problem may not have occurred. Gutting!

Your response to my questions have been really informative, and given your extensive experience, carry a lot of weight. The key points I take away from what you say are:

• Timing of serving gilt/sow is paramount. Too early, too small a litter.
• A multi-vitamin injection on onset of oestrus is a good insurance for good foetal development.
• An ivomec injection 10-14 days prior to farrowing to de-worm and reduce infection rates of piglets.
• Feed bulky fibrous feed – as much as sow wants- in last month of pregnancy.
• Use oxytocin if delays in delivery.
• Allow piglets to suckle during farrowing as this as oxytocin like effect and helps strengthen contractions.

For my operation I'm not quite sure about the need for a multi-vitamin injection. We add a multi-vitamin powder mix supplement to our feed. Our feed is made up of a combination of dry powder and wet vegetables. The high fresh vegetable content to the everyday feed (of which pak bung is one we regularly use when in season) should be providing a good level of further vitamin intake, and we also mix in a high percentage of red soil to the feed which helps provide iron, vitamin D, and healthy trace elements. Also salt. I would hope that these vitamin sources ingested daily as part of their feed would be enough. Possibly you or someone else reading will have a view on this.

Regarding the de-wormer injection, does anyone know of a solution based dewormer that could be added to water / feed to administer? And if so, where can it be bought. I'm not a great fan of administering injections.

I was surprised at the speed of delivery you have – if all goes well under 3 hours, and of the frequency of expected births -20 mins or so from one another. I haven't been seeing that even with oxytocin. I was also unaware of potential problems with using oxytocin – thanks for the pointer.

The tip about using cooking oil as a lubricant if you have to 'go in' is worth highlighting. Locally here, soap tends to be used, but I've always been concerned about possible risks of causing infection in the sow using this.

A couple of areas left unanaswered.

• What do you do regarding mating? Do you mate once or twice as a matter of routine?
• How often do you think it is prudent for a boar to mate before reduction in quality of sperm and conception rates could be impaired?
• What degree of still births would be considered 'abnormal'. Indeed, what would be your typical litter size?

Yours, and anyone's else's comments on these areas would be most welcome.

Thanks guys for the positive comments, I am humbled by your generousity. Always willing to help, if I can.

Issan Aussie, I think your PIG 101 idea is a very good one. By keeping useful information, tips, data etc in an easily accessible place, can only do some good.

Charlie,

Yes, it was very sad to lose the gilt, however, to be truthful, I was pleased she died & wished she had done earlier. Can't imagine the pain she had gone through for thoses days? The positive outcome being her brood of nine survivors should be weaned in a few days and have done quite well inspite of a very 'rocky' start.

Mating: In my opinion a minimum of two services, even three if the gilt/ sow will stand for a third....." make hay while the sun shines:)"

A fully mature, healthy boar should have no problems serving three (6 jumps) sows/ gilts per week, two (4 jumps) being ideal. Younger boars no more than one per week until he's around a year or so old. Old boars the same, although, it is prudent not to use the old boys at all.

If your local 'boar guy' only gives you one service, I'd seriously be considering either getting a boar yourself or going over to AI. We predominantly use AI now, with 'touch wood' very good results.

Earlier in the year during the abnormally hot, hot season there were large numbers of farrowings with the majority of the piglets 'stillborns' This was quite widespread throughout Issan, the excessive heat being credited with the cause. We ourselves had our share, with 14 out of a litter of 16 stillborn & 10 out of a 14 litter, the oddest one being one sow we had who went eighteen days over her due date before producing a litter of mummified piglets! Needless to say, that was a lousy month down on Fruitys little farm:)

Generally, it is fair to expect one or two stillborns per litter. In large litters, they nearly always occur towards the end of the labour, those who have had the longest trek & they are often bigger than their bedfellows, nearly all stills are caused by delays in some way, or can result from the piglet becoming seperated from its placenta too soon and it basically suffocates before it can be delivered. For whatever reason a fetus can die several days / weeks before birth, this is different from described & you can easily tell these apart.

Hope that helps!

Cheers

Fruity

Thanks for that Fruity. That's really another top notch response that hopefully is of interest to other as well as myself. I now have a much clearer picture as to what we need to do in future to maximise our litter size potential and of external factors that we need to be aware of.

I understand totally what you are saying about wishing the gilt had died earlier. There's nothing so wretched as watching a sick animal failing to respond to medication and knowing that there's nothing else you can do but hope. We had an awful experience with 4 young pigles at the beggining of the year. It was a relief when they eventually found death. I'm pleased to hear your nine survivors are doing well.

Charlie,

See, told you it would be worth the wait. Well done Fruity.

IA

Yes, that really was an awesome response from Fruity!

Fruity, many thanks for your full and detailed response. Very much appreciated. Before I say anything more, please accept my commiserations on your lost gilt. An awful situation and no doubt heart-wrenching to you to watch her slowly die, made even more so by your thought that if you had done things differently the problem may not have occurred. Gutting!

Your response to my questions have been really informative, and given your extensive experience, carry a lot of weight. The key points I take away from what you say are:

• Timing of serving gilt/sow is paramount. Too early, too small a litter.
• A multi-vitamin injection on onset of oestrus is a good insurance for good foetal development.
• An ivomec injection 10-14 days prior to farrowing to de-worm and reduce infection rates of piglets.
• Feed bulky fibrous feed – as much as sow wants- in last month of pregnancy.
• Use oxytocin if delays in delivery.
• Allow piglets to suckle during farrowing as this as oxytocin like effect and helps strengthen contractions.

For my operation I'm not quite sure about the need for a multi-vitamin injection. We add a multi-vitamin powder mix supplement to our feed. Our feed is made up of a combination of dry powder and wet vegetables. The high fresh vegetable content to the everyday feed (of which pak bung is one we regularly use when in season) should be providing a good level of further vitamin intake, and we also mix in a high percentage of red soil to the feed which helps provide iron, vitamin D, and healthy trace elements. Also salt. I would hope that these vitamin sources ingested daily as part of their feed would be enough. Possibly you or someone else reading will have a view on this.

Regarding the de-wormer injection, does anyone know of a solution based dewormer that could be added to water / feed to administer? And if so, where can it be bought. I'm not a great fan of administering injections.

I was surprised at the speed of delivery you have – if all goes well under 3 hours, and of the frequency of expected births -20 mins or so from one another. I haven't been seeing that even with oxytocin. I was also unaware of potential problems with using oxytocin – thanks for the pointer.

The tip about using cooking oil as a lubricant if you have to 'go in' is worth highlighting. Locally here, soap tends to be used, but I've always been concerned about possible risks of causing infection in the sow using this.

A couple of areas left unanaswered.

• What do you do regarding mating? Do you mate once or twice as a matter of routine?
• How often do you think it is prudent for a boar to mate before reduction in quality of sperm and conception rates could be impaired?
• What degree of still births would be considered 'abnormal'. Indeed, what would be your typical litter size?

Yours, and anyone's else's comments on these areas would be most welcome.

I would be interested to hear your views on maximizing the number of live piglet births you get from a sow. I've just had one sow deliver 5 piglets, 1 dead. A really disappointing haul to say the least. I'm therefore using this as a prod to review how we do things and to consider whether other methods may be better at ensuring a good batch of healthy piglets the next time around. Forgive me therefore if this is a long thread full of questions and specifics.

From what I read the best way to increase sow fertility is:

1) A week or so before breeding increase the food ration to initiate 'flushing' as this will increase the number of ova / eggs released, thereby increasing litter size.

2) Mate within 20 hours from the onset of standing heat and again 12 hours later. A second mating will increase the litter size by 10%. Elsewhere I've read its best to mate early morning and then again the next morning.

3) Reduce temperature of sty if possible, as conception rates fall during hot weather. It also lowers the fertility of the boar.

4) Use a boar that isn't overworked.

5) Increase the sows ration after mating for the next 3-4 weeks to ensure the developing piglets get good nutrition and the best of starts. Then drop the ration back to normal.

Does anyone have any experience of doing any of these things? Any views of their likely effectiveness, or any suggestions of other practices that seem to work?

I have a few specific questions of the above:

Mating twice to ensure conception and a good litter seems to make sense but locally the tendency seems to be to just mate once, and only mate again if the sow still shows sign on being on heat mate again once this behavior has been observed. It's seems that this is questionable if you want to maximize litter size, but is it?

Also, is the time of day an important factor? Why mate in the morning? What's wrong with the afternoon or evening?

Mating with a boar that isn't overworked also seems like common sense but what constitutes an overworked boar? Also what is best practice for mating? Does anyone use open paddock matting where the sow and boar are allowed to mingle freely and mate as and when over a day or so, or is a swift introduction, mounting with human help to guide the boars tool into the vulva the way to go? What do you do?

Advice I read about reducing chances of still born births and improving speed of delivery includes:

• Feed a little less a day or so before sow farrowing to reduce constipation.
• Increase the bulk element of the food mix to increase the fiber a few days before farrowing, as this helps reduce any possible constipation problems.
• Ensure the sow is not overweight.
• Ensure the sows are fed a good nutritious diet.
• Inject Oxytocin if delivery is overly slow.

I have a few questions about some of these points.

Sow weight: I know many pig breeders get obsessive about sow weight. My question is this: What constitutes overweight? Our sows have what I believe to be a natural pig shape but are undoubtedly more filled out than many intensively farmed pig counter-parts. Consequently I do get comments that they are too fat. But too fat compared to what? An unnaturally intensive farmed thin pig or the shape a pig should actually be? So what would be considered a good weight for a breeding sow?

Oxytocin use: If you should use, when should you use? Should you only use after it seems that last pig has come out to ensure any further pigs plus the placenta is expelled and then to help stimulate the milk flow? What do you do?

Other questions:

· How much active intervention do/should you take? Do you go in and help pull piglets out if there are long delays between deliveries. Is this wise?

· How long should a farrowing take? I read conflicting reports on how long a farrowing should take. Many sources say between 1-6 hours is the average but I have also read that it can take up to 24 hours. Which is this right? Our sows often take longer than 6 hours. We tend to resort to Oxytocin if there is more than 1 hour between piglet delivery. What do you do?

· What level of still births should you expect per litter, if any? What's your experience?

· When should you allow the piglets to suckle? Should you let the sow deliver all her piglets first and then allow the piglets to suckle, or should you allow them access whilst she is still trying to deliver the remaining piglets. Locally, the Thai's here seem to want to keep the piglets away from the sow until all piglets have been delivered, but this can be a long time after the first piglets have been born. My inclination is to allow the piglet's access to the sow during the farrowing at regular intervals. Any views?

This has turned out to be an extremely long question thread. Apologies but as all the questions are linked to the subject of how to have productive sows with high live piglet yield and non problematic deliveries, I guess it's best to keep them together rather than break them up over a number of threads.

I do hope some of you will be able to spend some time responding. I await with interest for your views.

About a month ago one of my gilts had an rectal prolapse that was repaired by a team of local vets. Well the day before yesterday it was time for her to check out of the single room and back into communal living with her siblings.

There was a lot of interest and a bit of pushing and shoving during that afternoon but basically I was pleased with the reintroduction. Yesterday morning a neighbour told the wife that there had been a bit of boxing in the sty overnight and I wondered what I would encounter when I went over after breakfast.

Well here was the gilt nearly floating around the rafters with fully inflated ears, man had she been beaten up. Bruised from backside to breakfast but not a single drop of blood anywhere. She was exhausted and laying on the floor with the rest apologising profusely by licking her ballooned ears.

In keeping with the topic, and recognising that "modern" standards call for group housing, I pose the following question. Does anyone know "a better way" to put an estranged pig, or new member into an existing group in an open pen without causing a boxing tournament? Or is it our lot in life to be the morning after cut man?

Isaanaussie

Good question. The locals here reccommend squirting all the pigs with see sip (white whisky / 40%). The thinking behind it is that it masks the individual smell of each pigs thereby giving the introduced piglet time to re-establish itself within the group heirachy without being overtly singled out. A western remedy I've read about is to squirt the pigs with washing up liquid mixed with water, though I doubt whether this is as effective a means of masking individual pig smell. I've not tried either remedy so can't vouch for their effectiveness.

I've had little success reintroducing growers to a group. The aggravation they give to the reintroduced pig is pretty shocking (I've tried it twice with one pig and that was enough for me; we were lucky to get the pig out alive both times) and I've therefore tended to keep seperated pigs apart if they have been removed from the family group. With my older pigs I've had few problems. We had a pair of sisters seperated for over 4 months (against my wishes at the time), but when put back together again (after both had given birth and weaned their piglets), we had absolutely no problem. They were as happy as punch and there was no posturing or fighting whatsoever.

Understand and have been through that. IMHO whiskey here has one destination, into the mindless internals of the "your helper" who no doubt volunteered the ministration. 100% BS. My prolapse pig had recovered and was reintroduced to her siblings. She got a real hiding over two or three days and then was the subject of sympathy from the rest, a few baht from me and some jabs fron the vet. Now back to where she belongs with her sisters.

Sorry for my aggressive response but I have had more than I can stand about the healing powers of that 40% mind destroying filth. Stick with the soap.

Isaanaussie

So you're not a fan of see sip then? I'm quite happy to indulge in a tipple now and then myself when drinking with my Thai friends and neighbours.

The principle of masking body odor though is a reasonable one. Critical factors in successful reinroduction imo are size of group piglet is being reintroduced to (the smaller the better), space and opportunity to escape (difficult for them to get away in any environment but in tightly confined overcrowed sties it's murder), the length of time the piglet has beeen seperated from the group (the shorter the better), and the physical health and stamina of the returning piglet (needs to be 100% recovered and fit).

An alternative approach is to return piglet to pen but in fenced off area so that it cannot be attacked but can be seen and smelt. This approach gives all piglets a time to re-familiarise themselves with each other and in theory should reduce the attention the piglet gets when released fully into the company of the group a day or so later. Introduce at feeding time so that there is a gradual realisation of the returned piglet.

In all cases of re-integrating pigs a close and regular monitoring of the situation is required. I personally know of incidences where piglets that have died through stress or the physical exhaustion from being relentlessly being persued and attacked.

Reintroducing older pigs into small group is from my experience not such a big problem as trying to reintegrate growers. When we put one 6 month old with two 7 month old sisters, the dominant sister fought it out with the interloper, they rested, fought again, rested, fought again and that was that. The less dominant sister had no interest in fighting whatsoever, and accepted the new heirachy. However, group relationships were never as good as before, so, I think it's best to stick with long standing family groups, rater than mixing in other non family member pigs.

Given all this, I guess the question arises, why keep pigs in groups at all rather than keeping them alone in individual pens? Quality of life and repecting of core pig behavoraial needs are two good reasons. Pigs, like Thais, need to live in heirachical groups to live reasonably happy lives. I've raised pigs both ways and I have no doubt whatsoever which is better: group living in stable family groups cannot be beat. Would be interested to hear any dissenting voices to that view.

About a month ago one of my gilts had an rectal prolapse that was repaired by a team of local vets. Well the day before yesterday it was time for her to check out of the single room and back into communal living with her siblings.

There was a lot of interest and a bit of pushing and shoving during that afternoon but basically I was pleased with the reintroduction. Yesterday morning a neighbour told the wife that there had been a bit of boxing in the sty overnight and I wondered what I would encounter when I went over after breakfast.

Well here was the gilt nearly floating around the rafters with fully inflated ears, man had she been beaten up. Bruised from backside to breakfast but not a single drop of blood anywhere. She was exhausted and laying on the floor with the rest apologising profusely by licking her ballooned ears.

In keeping with the topic, and recognising that "modern" standards call for group housing, I pose the following question. Does anyone know "a better way" to put an estranged pig, or new member into an existing group in an open pen without causing a boxing tournament? Or is it our lot in life to be the morning after cut man?

Isaanaussie

Good question. The locals here reccommend squirting all the pigs with see sip (white whisky / 40%). The thinking behind it is that it masks the individual smell of each pigs thereby giving the introduced piglet time to re-establish itself within the group heirachy without being overtly singled out. A western remedy I've read about is to squirt the pigs with washing up liquid mixed with water, though I doubt whether this is as effective a means of masking individual pig smell. I've not tried either remedy so can't vouch for their effectiveness.

I've had little success reintroducing growers to a group. The aggravation they give to the reintroduced pig is pretty shocking (I've tried it twice with one pig and that was enough for me; we were lucky to get the pig out alive both times) and I've therefore tended to keep seperated pigs apart if they have been removed from the family group. With my older pigs I've had few problems. We had a pair of sisters seperated for over 4 months (against my wishes at the time), but when put back together again (after both had given birth and weaned their piglets), we had absolutely no problem. They were as happy as punch and there was no posturing or fighting whatsoever.

Can anyone update on a good latest software dictionary (thai-end-thai) for a Windows Mobile 6.1 phone?

I have used PPClinks E-dictionary reader for WM in past and found it good. It doesn't seem to work on later versions of WM though. My HTC phone came with Lexitron Pack but the software seems very simple, albeit works. Any others experienced?

This word in hand dictionary by Paiboon Publishing might do the trick. It works on Windows, Iphone and Palm OS. It's a superb 'speaking' dictionary that allows you to search by English, Thai script and phonetic sound for a word. It incorporates all the major phonetic systems being used to teach Thai (you can set it on the one you prefer) and has an aray of user friendly features. I think it's a a game changer. Thoroughly impressed. Click on link for more details and free trial.

http://word-in-the-hand.com

Thanks for your response. I'm certainly getting a better picture of your operation with each post. From what you're saying, it's clear that for you farrowing crates are a necessary evil. I salute your approach of moving of your sow and litter at what you would judge the earliest opportunity, thus halving the amount of time spent in there. A larger piglet area within the farrow crate is also very positive. However, given your obvious empathy with your pigs, it does raise the question: why don't you simply put the birthing sow in a seperate pen with creep area? This is something I do with mine, and I have no problems resulting from this practice. Is it a space issue, or an operational one? Thanks for describing how you operate your free run area and your appraoch to keeping it pig sick free. Very useful information for me as I contemplate developing a free access area in my own system. And finally, thank you for taking the time for discussing the issues and your own particular style of pig operation. I, for one, have found your responses most illuminating. You've also help put to rest the notion I may have had that all intensive pig farmers are evil b.......s. It's clearly not that black and white.

Charlie,

Fortunately my poor connection has prevented me from replying before now. I say fortunately, as due to your rather haughty first post, this reply would have been quite different in tone. Now having the benefit of reading your subsequent posts I can see that you really did get off on the wrong foot & put a lot of 'backs up'!

Lots of what you say is very true and you make some salient points with which I agree, however, lots of what you say is unpractical.

I will begin with boar taint. Irregardless of the scientific concensus you have quoted let me say & I stress, all my opinions are 'educated ones' drawn from many years EXPERIENCE with pigs, man & boy. Boar taint develops when the young chap begins to feel randy & his pee begins to stink. The age at which this happens varies with the individual, however, ALWAYS, a long way short of them being 100kgs in weight. I have a boar here who has been ejaculating since he was 3.5 months old! Keeping entires in groups is easy enough, but without some form of hormone suppressant to delay sexual impulses I cannot see that it is possible to rear boars without taint to the size you require.

All of my sows and gilts have daily outdoor exercise / access to their 'wallows' shaded by trees. They love this & I love to see them enjoying themselves. There are no gestation pens here; something that SHOULD be banned worldwide, not only in EU countries. My sows each have their own 'house' not less than 5m2, some live as pairs in larger 'rooms' all have overhead showers for use in very hot times. Each house has a chain hanging from the roof for play, as well as toys (pvc pipe bends mainly:) that they can throw around.

Farrowing crates are absolutely vital in any operation. Especially so with gilts farrowing for the first time(unknown quantities!). Experienced, non aggressive sows can farrow down virtually anywhere & allow her trusted people to handle her piglets without incident. On the other hand I've known the most docile sows become 'man eaters' when anyone has even looked at her piglets, let alone tried to pick one up. Having access to the piglets is absolutely crucial for teeth cutting, docking, iron injections etc. Again, teeth cutting a must! Modern pigs have big litters,who will not only tear the sows udder to bits, but will rip each others faces to bits just by scrumming down & suckling. Not so much of a concern in old fashioned breeds that don't have so many piglets. Regarding tail docking,we do it, however, in my opinion it isn't really a must; however, it's vital in those that are to be kept under very intensive conditions.

Bedding on straw? Very dangerous here in Thailand, straw attracts all manner of undesirables, scorpions, snakes etc. Unless, as IAussie does, you chop it first. In the cooler months, we will use rice hulls, which, as has been said provides an excellent soil improver. All of our buildings are concrete floored, they are washed out twice every day, all waste going into 2 pools, which are later pumped out onto vegetables, trees & even rice. There is no smell whatsoever.

Bare concrete floors are far from ideal, however, they are the only way in this climate that are practical. I have seen earth floored places, that work very well & are ideal for growers; in fact this is something we are currently thinking about.

I do like to think that we give our pigs a very good standard of living & in reality, don't think there is a lot more we could do to improve their situation.

Fruity

Thanks for posting, It's really good to hear about your approach to pig farming and to get the benefit of your advice and experience. it's clear, that like myself, and some others on this thread, you are trying to marry the practicality of raising pigs in large scale systems with an accommodation of the behavioral needs of your pigs.

I love the fact you have outdoor exercise areas. This is something I'm keen to explore further in my own operation. I use is a deep bed pen system, where my pigs are kept in staple 'family'; groups of 10-12 until slaughter. These are covered by a roof bit are open sided. They are in kept in large pens that give plenty of space to wander, frolic, root, dig etc. Whilst I believe this provides a significantly more stimulating environment than any concrete system, it has it's limitations, and I would love to be able to give them some time to explore the real world outside the pen. I have a few questions regarding your exercise areas. How do you keep the pigs from wandering off in your exercise area? Solar powered electric wiring, standard fencing, or is it just part of the enclosed pen set-up? And do you regulate the times they can go out and play or is it an open system that lets the pigs decide. For my own system, I'm considering the possibility of letting the pigs out early morning and late afternoon when the weather is coolest and the sun less powerful. But could there be implications re pick sick soil, or in this heat, would any parasites etc be killed? I do wonder how I would get them back into their respective pens though. Any advice or experience of this aspect you could provide would be most welcomely received, as, as you can see, I am at the begining of my thinking on this, and have yet to do any detailed research or planning.

Your housing system for the pigs sounds very interesting, especially the provision of overhead showers. Our pigs really do seem to suffer in the heat of this climate and we regularly pour water over them to try to cool them. The wet gaep flooring also then provides a cool surface for them to lie in, but I now recognise that this is not a satisfactory way for us to keep the pigs cool. I'm now looking at a mud bath system to provide them with a means of keeping cool, something that is an option for a small holder like me, given the relatively small numbers of pigs I keeping, and my willingness to invest time and effort in maintaining the sties. This will also provide the pigs with one of the ultimate joy of their lives, wallowing in mud. It is no coincidence that we have the association of pigs with mud. They love it! as you have no doubt observed yourself with your set-up. I see this myself with the two pigs at the house within a more traditional system. This has dirt floor covered with a thin layer of rice husks, and a mud wallow area. I get great pleasure seeing the enjoyment and stimulation they get from this environment, whether it be rooting, digging wallowing or resting. They are very active and interested throughout the day. From my observations, I think it is very clear that any system of production that departs from dirt /mud flooring, no matter how pig welfare orientated we are, represents a significant deprivation of pig behavorial need satisfaction. It's nice to see, that like myself, people you and IsaanAussie are trying to find an adequate compensation for this within the systems being used.

It is very interesting what you are saying about boar taint, as this goes against some very authorative scientific research in this area. I think the boar taint issue and castration is going to be an on-going dilemma, particularly if you don't want to use drugs to suppress the onset of it.

I'm sorry, I cannot agree on your defence of farrowing crates and the need to tooth clip. On my smaller scale operation I have yet to experience any of the problems you mention, although admittedly I'm relatively new to this game. Could the farrowing crates actually be causing the problems of sow aggression and the frenzy at feeding time from the piglets, who you observe tearing teats and each other? My sows are placid, maybe because they have the freedom to nest prior to birthing, are unrestrained throughout the farrowing process and can move around and choose where to lie throughout the farrowing period. They can also decide when expose their teats and call their piglets for feeding? Could the lack of piglet aggression I've seen be because of the stimulating environment the pigs are being raised in, with a flooring that provides interest, and a pen space that allows for exploration? Could the lack of stimulation for the piglets be the cause for the heightened level of excitement at feeding you see? Your post shows you have introduced many enlightened aspects to your pig raising system. I'm sure you could find a more enlightened approach to farrowing that would be consistent with all the other highly pig friendly features you have introduced to your operation if you put your miind to it. I hope you can give it another think.