charlie10

TOD:

Wow! Do you have an axe to grind or did you simply get out of bed the wrong way when you wrote this? That's a pretty strong viewpoint from someone who has admittedly only had a quick browse of a product. Those people selling the book around Sukhumvit must have really annoyed you.

I can't say I agree with what you are saying. As I highly recommended this book and DVD earlier in thread, I guess it falls to me to mount a defence against your full frontal attack.

You question the phonetics used, saying they're screwy. I disagree. Just because the phonetic system used differs from the Benjawan approach doesn't make it screwy. There's more than one way to transliterate, and this system does have the benefit of being easy to read; you say it as you read it. Judging from the DVD, where the native Thai / Isaan Thai speaker clearly pronounces the words and phrases, I would say the phonetic system used accurately gives the pronunciation. But then again, I'm a native English speaker. Other nationalities may disagree.

You say the colour coding of words is off putting, but being able to see instantly what each word in a phrase across the phonetic, Thai script and English seems a quite a useful way of quickly learning word meaning and sentence construction.

As for proof reading mistakes, I haven't seen any in the books I have, but maybe you're a more expert spotter of mistakes than me.

You're quite dismissive of the value of having a product teaching Isaan Thai. I think many of us who live in Isaan would beg to differ. It's highly likely the reason the Thai speaking farang monk wants to learn Isaan Thai is that this is the language being spoken around him. It is in the village I live in.

You question the value of the product despite the glowing testaments from buyers of these products. If you don't rate a product then of course it has no value, but if you do, a price of 1574 baht for both volumes of the book plus 7 hours of DVD seems pretty reasonable to me. That's 787 baht for a book and DVD that will give you a good grounding in the language and teaches you correct pronunciation. Really, that's not a bad price given the price of books these days.

Given the positives I'm seeing in the product I'm finding it difficult to understand why you are so anti Speak Thai and Speak Isaan Thai. It may not be the very best on the market but it's still a worthwhile option for anyone wanting to learn the language. You say the Benjawan books are as good as you're gonna get, and I'm not going to knock her product. However, I think most of us end up with more than one learn Thai language book, and that each book offers something different and additional.

I think the Learn Speak Thai products have the benefit of teaching the key words, phrases and speech patterns you'll actually use, which is helpful for someone who is just starting to speak Thai or Isaan Thai. The book and DVD combination is a plus. You get to learn the language understanding from the book and the correct pronunciation from the DVD. Many people will also like the language and cultural insight that the book provides. I think to really understand the language you have to understand the culture of the country, and in this respect the book provides a little of this dimension. It makes it more interesting than a bog standard Thai language learning book, as do the captioned pictures which help break up the text.

We obviously have a big difference in opinion. I would suggest people take a quick look at the look inside book and DVD feature on the website to form an initial opinion.

What do you think? Add your opinion to this thread.

Any one else bought this either Speak Thai or Speak Isaan Thai? What's your view?

...

Chalie10...i'd asume that your boars are not castrated too (Boar Taint) ?

Castration. A big issue. And one I'm having major problems with. I sell a high proportion of the pigs I breed, either as piglets or as pigs to be slaughtered for meat. None of my potential customers wants a non-castrated boar. They fear boar taint.

I personally would prefer not to castrate. I don't believe there is a pain-free way to do it, and the recommendation for using anasthesia / analgesics pre and post operation is not practical to administer. Also, the recommendation to cut rather than tear the cords is not a practical option here in Thailand given the skills of those people who do castration.

The scientific consensus I've read seems to be that at best only 7% of all boars will be affected by boar taint, if memory serves me correct. Other scientific evidence from the authorative EU Scientic Vetinary Report On the Welfare of Intensively Kept Pigs that was commisioned to advise the EU Council on it's pig welfare policy indicated that boar taint effects few animals under the weight of 100-110 kg. Therefore, if you kill a boar before it reaches 100 kg in weight, there is no threat of boar taint. This seems to be bourne out by countries such as the UK, where 100% of all boars are not castrated, and boar taint is not a problem.

To date we've castrated. The problem is one of overcoming people's fears about boar taint, and that fear isn't easy to overcome. I will be giving non-castration a go with our next set of piglets, as I intend to raise these for meat. I'll therefore see for myself whether it's a doable option to raise non-castrated, boar taint free pigs. The proof will be in the eating!

Charlie10, Thanks for the link I downloaded the full book and have quickly scanned through the content. I find many parallels with my own operation and will continue to read it in detail. The differences of opinion that we have are demonstrated as well. I noticed several references to things where comments such as "may improve" or "could prevent" are made, tail docking is a good example. I do dock the tails of new born piglets, and I cut their teeth. I have had tails bitten off and teats damaged. To me these are both the lesser of two evils. These sort of differences of opinion will be with us for ever. I use straw as bedding and as a manipulation focus as well as a method of dry muck out cleanup pre compost heap. It definitely is more work and the floors do not stay as clean but thats OK as the power washer takes care of that every few days and it produces the best compost I have ever seen. I admit being fiercely proud and defensive of my methods and believes as I suggest you are as well. Maybe we are not so far apart after all. So for what it's worth I suppose I should apologise for offering too strong an attitude. Sorry. Isaanaussie

Thanks. It takes a big man to write what you have. I respect you for it. I think perhaps I too should be offering an apology to you, and others I may have offended. My opening thread was somewhat strong in polarising the issues, and in hindsight, I can see it was bound to provoke a reaction such as your initial one.

I would agree that the report does hedge things a bit, more so than I would be inclined to. I don't teeth clip and to date have yet to see any problems with sows teats, or with biting amongst the pigs. I also don't tail dock but this may be a bit of a gamble as most of my piglets are sold on. I use an open deep bed sty system which provides a good degree of stimulation for the pigs who can root and dig at will. I worry that is less stimulating environments there might be a problem, but have had no reports back saying there has been.

I'm really pleased to hear that you are using some straw bedding as I do think it provides some stimulation for the pigs. I wonder whether you have ever tried using 'gaep' (rice hulls) as a flooring alternative to straw? It would do a similar job to straw but has the advantage of mixing in with the pig feaces and urine to make very good compost. It has the advantage of being very cheap too if you buy it in the small village 'lonhg see's' (rice threshing places), around 2 baht for a 30 - 50kg kg bag size. I've never used this with a concrete floor system and just wonder whether it's a practical alternative to straw or not. You could in theory layer it pretty deep and reduce the frequency requirement for flushing out/mucking out. It might be worth loooking at. Would be interested in your views on this.

you call it over crowding...my reseach said it's call Intensive Farming...

http://en.wikipedia....ive_pig_farming

btw free range n intensive...i choose the latter...and in term of animal welfare, i've compensated in my own ways and i not in the mood to tell.

hey, it's a free world, the authorities find nothing wrong with this kind of farming practice and if you feel like it, build them a 5 star facility sty or shed and includ in a tread mil and jacuzzi pool.

just my 2 satang...

Although I suspect your post is intended to be somewhat flippant and light hearted, the way we raise our pigs is an important issue. So, please accept my apologies if I am taking your post too seriously, but there may be some people reading this thread interested in understanding more about the pig welfare issues I have highlighted. I'd therefore like to respond to a few points from your thread.

'hey, it's a free world,' :

Unless you're a pig trapped in one of these systems...

'the authorities find nothing wrong with this kind of farming practice' :

In Thailand maybe not, but in the majority of developed countries where there is a high justified concern about the way pigs are raised, they find lot's wrong. For instance, In the EU, there are clear laws requiring pig sties to have manipulable materials, as the need of pigs to root and dig is a fundamental behavorial need and drive. There are also directives banning routine tail docking because this is judged to be painful and needless practice.

'btw free range n intensive...i choose the latter' :

That's your choice. But choice it is, which means you, and others who have intensive pig raising systems, can if you / they so choose, make some small changes that have immense welfare benefits to the pigs being raised. Whilst free range and intensive systems are opposite extremes, it is possible to have higher welfare intensive systems. Adding manipulable material, stopping the unnceessary mutilations, and designing a piglet production system that doesn't require caging are some things that could be considered. To change the latter does necessarily mean more work or greater risk of dead piglets. It just requires a more compassionate approach to your pigs and a modification of how you choose to run your pig production system. And as my initial post shows there are pig raising systems available that fall between free range and intensive that can offer significant animal and producer benefits.

Please take a look at this downloadable report from CIWF: Aspects of good agricultural practice: Pig Production. It contains lots of good infromation that will be of interest to anyone raising pigs, and provides options on how to improve pig welfare should you wish to do so. Case studies are also given.

http://www.ciwf.org....ok/default.aspx

Quick responses:

SLAP:OUT 'Your not raising those organic, free range, pigs again, are you?'

It's not a free range organic system. Would be interested to know if free range can effectively work in the hot Thai climate though. Any steer on that would be appreciated.

GLOMP: 'How many pigs do you have and is this your main business?'

I am a small holder who is not interested in large scale pig production.My stock levels range between 15-50. However, the system I use is practiced extensively in Korea for raising pigs hundreds of pigs. It works for small scale and large scale farmers.

Isaan Aussie:

I am judging a system of intensive pig raising. I am highlighting the availability of an alternative that enables large scale pig farming without the inherent cruelty of the factory farm system. If you want to debate any aspect of the factory farming system in particular, or how you choose to raise your pigs, I willing to do so, preferably without the name calling.

WATEREDGE: Perhaps we your readers would be more receptive if you didn't start with a criticism of operations you haven't seen.

I have highlighted my general perceptions of what goes on with intensive farming based on my own personal experiences of these operations. It is also based on the wealth of authorative vetinary and scientific EU reports that have been produced on this matter, and a wide range of literature I have read that highlight the atrocious conditions pigs in such systems are being raised in. It is also based on my own first hand experience of raising pigs and observing behaviour. When a system takes no account of the behavorial needs of the animals it raises, it is wrong; and when it deliberately inflicts over-crowding, multilations, farrowing pens and gestration crates on these animals it is indefensible. No if's or buts.

Here's one from the volume 2 of excellent Speak Thai book and DVD series:

Wan pra my mee hin deeo (sorry can't show the tones):

Buddist holy days no have time single

Meaning: Buddist holy days don't occur only once: This is akin to our english saying 'Every dog has his day'.

What's nice about this saying is that it reflects the keen interest in the waxing and waning of the moon here in Isaan. Our Yai will go to the wat on these days, and quite often there is associated activity related to these holy days, such as the need to light candles to honour the budda images on the buddha shelf, or to wash the images. Giving akms to the monks on these days is also pretty important.

As the Speak Thai book explains the wan pra holy days fall on the 8th and 15th waxing moon days and the 8th and 15th waning day moons. If you look at the Thai calandar the phase of a moons waxing and waning is clearly indicated, as is the when the holy days fall. Fascinating stuff!

For anyone thinking about starting a pig farm I would say, think long and hard. There's a danger that, in ignorance, you'll go the intensive farming route that abandons any pretence of understanding or catering for the behavioral and welfare needs of the pigs you raise.

You'll adopt a large scale, crowded, concrete intensive factory farming system of raising methods that are nothing short of criminal.

You'll inflict the type of cruelty that even the lax EU regulations would forbid, and think nothing of it.

Your system of raising pigs will focus on your needs to manage the farm rather than cater and respect the core welfare and behavioral needs of the pigs you intend to raise.

You'll crowd them in, and then crowd them in some more.

The place will stink and your pigs will be covered in the millions of flies your system of raising them in has created.

You'll keep your sows imprisoned in gestation and farrowing crates that prevent any kind of movement, and you'll take the piglets away within a couple of weeks so it can be impregnated again.

You'll mutilate at will, convinced that this is the way to stop your pigs, crazed from the sterile non-stimulating overcrowded environment you have inflicted on them, from harming each other.

You'll give your pigs regular doses of medicine and vaccinations to help ward of the disease that is rampant in your system,.

You'll be so money focused you'll be feeding growth hormones to your pigs on a regular basis so that they reach 'market' weight even earlier.

You'll delude yourself you care and that your pigs are really well looked after.

I say all this because I've seen this happen time and time again.

That's the bad news. The good news is that there is a better way that fully caters for the pig's core behavioral and welfare needs, and delivers you even better profit than the concrete torture chamber approach.

Our pig raising system:

o respects the need to maintain stable family groups,

o ensures rooting and digging behavior can take place,

o allocates sufficient space so the pigs are unstressed and uncrowded,

o feeds fresh as well as pre-mixed/dry mix food to the pigs at a fraction of the feed cost used by the factory farm system,

o has pig sties devoid of smell,

o attracts no flies,

o provides ample space so that the pigs don't have to lie in their own feces or urine,

o has sties doesn't require daily, weekly or even monthly mucking out,

o produces top quality fertilizer far beyond that of the 'kee moo' most sell,

o Causes no outside pollution

o Requires no cesspits

In addition, the pigs in this system are so content:

o That there is no need to mutilate them: no tail docking, no teeth cutting.

o That pigs can be imprenated and give birth without any need to use the cruel gestation and farrowing crates

o That it produces pigs so healthy that there is no need for any routine vaccination or medical protection.

This system will cost a fraction of what it costs to set up the inhumane factory farms, respects the welfare and behavioral needs of the pigs, and delivers significantly higher profit per pig than any conventional concrete intensive pig raising system.

Want to learn more? If you are thinking of getting into pig farming please contact me first and see our higher pig welfare system in action FREE. I live in Isaan, in jangwat Kalasin. Don't be a pig abuser. Please contact me on: [email protected].

I would highly recommend the Speak Isaan Thai books to your monk friend. It's a properly structured fully comprehensive course that takes you up from begginer to intermediate level.

Speak Isaan Thai covers the language in good detail, and all the words and phrases are written in Thai script that reflects the Isaan Thai tones and pronunciation.It also has an easy to read phonetic. Given your monk friend reads and speaks Thai, this should enable him to learn the Isaan Thai pronunciation very easily without the aid of watching and listening to the DVD. If the wat has a DVD player or PC, your monk friend should have no problem at all learning to speak the language, because all the words and phrases in the book are featured on the DVD; their 'see,hear, speak' system.

It's worth checking the Learn Speak Thai website out. It has a look inside book and dvd feature that allows you to see part of the book and dvd content.

http://www.learnspeakthai.com

I found Pro- language in Times Square building very good. I had studied Thai at night class at SOAS (London University School of Oriental and Afrrican Studies) for a year before coming to Thailand but found myself still struggling quite a lot. Did the beginners course at Pro Language and thought it was very good. They kept it admirably simple but I really learnt the fundamentals of speaking Thai very quickly. Good course materials and the teacher was very good.

The problem I have with both Thai language learning experiences is that there is never sufficient focus on tones. You end up learning Thai words rather than both the words and tone. There is never enough stress on speaking the tone of the word correctly, and as a result, you never do. Most books / Cd's and audio systems also fail at this.

I recently bought Speak Thai book and 3 hour DVD as learnspeakthai.com and for the first time actually got my head around being able to identify and speak tones. It's worth buying it for the tone practice exercises alone. I'd recomend anyone wanting to speak Thai to check it out. Even if you're doing or intending to do lessons. The words and phrases you learn are really practical. I hear them being used all the time, which can't be said for much of what I have learnt elsewhere. They also do an Isaan Thai version of the book and DVD which could be interesting.

Imo classifiers are pretty complicated at the best of times and so trying to learn more than the top 20 or so most commonly used ones is not going to be helpful for you in speaking Thai. If my experience is anything to go by, you'll end up spending all your time trying to think what the main classifier is rather than getting out saying what you want to say! I've found if I ask for something but fail to use the correct classifier, the person I'm speaking to is very quick to repeat the request using the correct classifier. They can see you're making a real effort to speak the language and want to help you speak it correctly.

Thankfully a lot of commonly used classifiers are the same word as the noun they are associated with. In these everyday speaking situations you actually replace that noun with the classifier so you don't have to say the word twice, and that's why many farangs actually get away with hardly using a classifier at all. E.g Kon = person, but is also the classifier for people. Other examples of classifiers that are the same word as the noun they describe are: ‘horng’ = room, ‘dork’ = flower, ‘kuat’ = bottles, ‘gaeo’ = glasses, ‘jahn’ = plates, ‘dton’ = trees, ‘look’ = children, ‘baht’ = baht.

My advice: learn the top 20 classifiers, use the small object classifier 'an' where appropriate if the correct object classifier doesn't spring to mind (i.e when talking about any small objects) and then keep your ears peeled when this are talking to see how they use them in practice.

I tried to learn with Rossetta but didn't get far with it. In fact I've got a whole shelf full of books and dictionaries and they're all pretty tough going.

I recently bought a book and DVD learn Thai product which is actually pretty good. The book comes with a 3 hour DVD that covers all the words and phrases that appear in the book. There's a real focus on learning how to pronounce and hear tones which I think is really very effective - this area is covered far more comprehensively than any other learn Thai products I've bought. I've always had problems actually saying a tone at the correct pitch and I think this has now been sorted.

The phonetic system used is uncomplicated and does seem to accurately reflect the word pronunciation, and the language content is really very practical. I'm hearing the words and phrases I've learnt spoken all the time around me, and am actually using them a lot myself. So, I think this book and DVD is really a very good step forward for me, and may be a good solution for anyone else trying to get their head around the language. They also do a Learn Isaan Thai version which may be worth checking out.

Check out this website (learnspeakthai.com) for more information. They have a neat look inside book and dvd facility so that you can see exactly what you get.

I hope this is helpful.

Thanks. A superb list of key skills, many of them forgotten. Fascinating reading for me in store I think.

Very interesting to see some of the commonalties and differences to how Kon Isaan does similar tasks. The Isaan community I live within have certainly fine-tuned their living off the land capabilities, and unlike much of the western world, these are still living skills of today rather than yester-year. I get the feeling that when the food supply chain crashes in the west, mass starvation, disease and death will quickly wipe out the mass majority of people. Should a a similar situation happens in Thailand, I suspect life will carry on without hardly a blip for all those still living in rural areas, although I personally will miss my weekly supply of fresh bread, butter, cheese and ham from Tesco...